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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 18:25:53 GMT
See, that's the one thing I question. If a Templar loses his abilities if he stops taking lyrium, then how can Allister have Templar abilities in DAO when he never even took his first draught of lyrium? I don't think they lose their abilities when they go off lyrium, lyrium just intensifies their powers. (kinda like Popeye with his spinach) Actually, the alistair comics confirm not using lyrium means eventually losing access to Templar powers. In the comics, Alistair had to take lyrium again in order to use his Templar powers. Plus, it was retconned that Alistair did already take lyrium to use his powers. Also, Ok, but it was never addressed in the game and I have neither read the books nor the comics (and I won't be due to vision issues), and I think things like that are a big problem with the game. A casual playerwho doesn't read the books/comics are left in the dark if things like that aren't addressed properly. To base the next game on books/comics without a proper disclosure can make some players feel disconnected from the story and become frustrated with the lack of continuation in the plot. Going that way also brings up new questions too. If a Templar loses his/her powers from stpping their lyrium use, can they get them back years later if they start taking it again? In Allister's case, if he starts taking lyrium, will he have the powers of a Grey Warden and a Templar, or would one over rule the other? I don't know, it all seems incomplete in the story telling.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 2, 2016 18:44:45 GMT
Who wouldn't want to live in a house covered in gold? Not every abomination wants to become one. If mages had to be willing to become abominations, the situation would be much less dangerous. And the lyrium addiction doesn't make Templars ineffective until the end-stage. Before that it actually makes them more effective, since without the anti-magic it grants them the Templars have a really dangerous job. (Not that the lyrium makes it safe: it just makes it relatively so.) Without that, the Templars only hope is to have a mage embedded with every unit... which they should be doing anyway, but if the other Templars don't have anti-magic there will be a lot of fights where they're more hindrance than help. Then I hope you didn't make Cullen stop taking lyrium because a lot of Templars then decide to stop taking lyrium and thus lose their powers. Guess Templar supporters forgot about that little detail I'd imagined Templars were ceasing to take lyrium so that they could retire before they lost their minds to it. That I have no objection to. It's not like I want them to run their minds into the ground for the greater good.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 2, 2016 19:52:00 GMT
Any kind of "Freedom vs. Security" debate is moot because it's a false dichotomy. You can't be free without the security to act, and you can't have security at all without some measure of freedom.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 20:22:59 GMT
Actually, the alistair comics confirm not using lyrium means eventually losing access to Templar powers. In the comics, Alistair had to take lyrium again in order to use his Templar powers. Plus, it was retconned that Alistair did already take lyrium to use his powers. Also, Ok, but it was never addressed in the game and I have neither read the books nor the comics (and I won't be due to vision issues), and I think things like that are a big problem with the game. A casual playerwho doesn't read the books/comics are left in the dark if things like that aren't addressed properly. To base the next game on books/comics without a proper disclosure can make some players feel disconnected from the story and become frustrated with the lack of continuation in the plot. Going that way also brings up new questions too. If a Templar loses his/her powers from stpping their lyrium use, can they get them back years later if they start taking it again? In Allister's case, if he starts taking lyrium, will he have the powers of a Grey Warden and a Templar, or would one over rule the other? I don't know, it all seems incomplete in the story telling. The comics confirmed that if a Templar loses his abilities due to not taking lyrium, he can regain them if he starts taking lyrium again. You can never lose the abilities of a warden so thats a moot point
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 20:23:56 GMT
Any kind of "Freedom vs. Security" debate is moot because it's a false dichotomy. You can't be free without the security to act, and you can't have security at all without some measure of freedom. Yeah but these debates can be summed up as whether the rights of mages are equal to or inferior to the rights of nonmages
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 21:27:28 GMT
Any kind of "Freedom vs. Security" debate is moot because it's a false dichotomy. You can't be free without the security to act, and you can't have security at all without some measure of freedom. Yeah but these debates can be summed up as whether the rights of mages are equal to or inferior to the rights of nonmages Okay, let's start with court law... How shall abomantions be charged? Shall you throw them in jail instead of killing them? Keep in mind, even the Avaar have to kill abominations, and they can 'cure' people of being abominations . Or even let the blood Mage who's killed dozens of innocent people free becuase of 'rights' and stuff?
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 2, 2016 21:36:59 GMT
Yeah but these debates can be summed up as whether the rights of mages are equal to or inferior to the rights of nonmages Okay, let's start with court law... How shall abomantions be charged? Shall you throw them in jail instead of killing them? Keep in mind, even the Avaar have to kill abominations, and they can 'cure' people of being abominations . Or even let the blood Mage who's killed dozens of innocent people free becuase of 'rights' and stuff? You treat a murderer who is a mage the same way you treat a murderer who isn't a mage. If the penalty is death, then so be it. The issue isn't how you treat murderers, the issue is how you treat innocent people who were born with the ability to do magic.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 21:44:30 GMT
Yeah but these debates can be summed up as whether the rights of mages are equal to or inferior to the rights of nonmages Okay, let's start with court law... How shall abomantions be charged? Shall you throw them in jail instead of killing them? Keep in mind, even the Avaar have to kill abominations, and they can 'cure' people of being abominations . Or even let the blood Mage who's killed dozens of innocent people free becuase of 'rights' and stuff? Murderer is murderer, no matter, mage or not.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 21:44:46 GMT
Okay, let's start with court law... How shall abomantions be charged? Shall you throw them in jail instead of killing them? Keep in mind, even the Avaar have to kill abominations, and they can 'cure' people of being abominations . Or even let the blood Mage who's killed dozens of innocent people free becuase of 'rights' and stuff? You treat a murderer who is a mage the same way you treat a murderer who isn't a mage. If the penalty is death, then so be it. The issue isn't how you treat murderers, the issue is how you treat innocent people who were born with the ability to do magic. Take pre-per cautiousness, certainly. Like send them to the circle (which should become a borders school) to ensure they don't accidentally turn into an abomination. Meh, this topic is so fudging grey, I can't... Even...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 21:46:36 GMT
Okay, let's start with court law... How shall abomantions be charged? Shall you throw them in jail instead of killing them? Keep in mind, even the Avaar have to kill abominations, and they can 'cure' people of being abominations . Or even let the blood Mage who's killed dozens of innocent people free becuase of 'rights' and stuff? Murderer is murderer, no matter, mage or not. Yeah, but with the abomantion it's not their fault they got themselves possessed by a demon. How can anyone judge someone who's not aware of what they did?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 21:57:37 GMT
You treat a murderer who is a mage the same way you treat a murderer who isn't a mage. If the penalty is death, then so be it. The issue isn't how you treat murderers, the issue is how you treat innocent people who were born with the ability to do magic. Take pre-per cautiousness, certainly. Like send them to the circle (which should become a borders school) to ensure they don't accidentally turn into an abomination. Meh, this topic is so fudging grey, I can't... Even... Abomination:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:05:02 GMT
Take pre-per cautiousness, certainly. Like send them to the circle (which should become a borders school) to ensure they don't accidentally turn into an abomination. Meh, this topic is so fudging grey, I can't... Even... Abomination: They had the free will not to take red lyrum, and yet they did anyhow. Still doesn't change my point. Red lyrum Templars don't become like that through an accident.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 22:12:44 GMT
They had the free will not to take red lyrum, and yet they did anyhow. Still doesn't change my point. Red lyrum Templars don't become like that through an accident. So: they are became uncontrolable dangerous monster, because they wanted to be uncontrolable dangerous monster? Much better. And so much acceptable. But no: an experienced, and careful mage don't be accidently abomination. Most of the accidents was the Circle system fault: for example Meredith's sister.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:20:48 GMT
They had the free will not to take red lyrum, and yet they did anyhow. Still doesn't change my point. Red lyrum Templars don't become like that through an accident. But no: an experienced, and careful mage don't be accidently abomination. Most of the accidents was the Circle system fault: for example Meredith's sister. Like Anders? Uh, but no, he didn't become an abomantion by accident, never mind that, not very relevant to the point at hand (I'm gonna have to agree with Merril on this one 'All spirts are dangerous, I'm sorry you didn't know that"). Still, doesn't change my point though.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 22:25:29 GMT
Ah yes, fear all those abominations that didn't happen if you ally with the mages. Methinks abominations aren't as big a threat as some imagine
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 22:30:09 GMT
But no: an experienced, and careful mage don't be accidently abomination. Most of the accidents was the Circle system fault: for example Meredith's sister. Like Anders? Uh, but no, he didn't become an abomantion by accident, never mind that, not very relevant to the point at hand (I'm gonna have to agree with Merril on this one 'All spirts are dangerous, I'm sorry you didn't know that"). Still, doesn't change my point though. Anders is another case, and extremely rare; his condition cannot be precedent. Okay, then you still think: the innocent mages need to imprisoned throughout their lives, because maybe sometime they will able to inflict accident. however the peoples, who maybe sometime want to be uncontrollable evil monster, deserve the freedom (if they are not mages). And why Vivienne not imprisoned? Why she deserve the freedom, and another mages not?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:40:46 GMT
Like Anders? Uh, but no, he didn't become an abomantion by accident, never mind that, not very relevant to the point at hand (I'm gonna have to agree with Merril on this one 'All spirts are dangerous, I'm sorry you didn't know that"). Still, doesn't change my point though. Anders is another case, and extremely rare; his condition cannot be precedent. Okay, then you still think: the innocent mages need to imprisoned throughout their lives, because maybe sometime they will able to inflict accident. however the peoples, who maybe sometime want to be uncontrollable evil monster, deserve the freedom (if they are not mages). No, that wasn't my original point. My point was how can you judge an abomantion and yet you have yet to awnser my question.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 22:42:02 GMT
Anders is another case, and extremely rare; his condition cannot be precedent. Okay, then you still think: the innocent mages need to imprisoned throughout their lives, because maybe sometime they will able to inflict accident. however the peoples, who maybe sometime want to be uncontrollable evil monster, deserve the freedom (if they are not mages). No, that wasn't my original point. My point was how can you judge an abomantion and yet you have yet to awnser my question. Just as another criminals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:43:22 GMT
No, that wasn't my original point. My point was how can you judge an abomantion and yet you have yet to awnser my question. Just as another criminals. And I said borders school, so... Yeah, a school. Do you know what a borders school is? It's not permanent.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2016 22:52:13 GMT
Just as another criminals. And I said borders school, so... Yeah, a school. Do you know what a borders school is? It's not permanent. You mean boarding school? Yes, this would be the first task of Circles. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:54:35 GMT
And I said borders school, so... Yeah, a school. Do you know what a borders school is? It's not permanent. You mean boarding school? Yes, this would be the first task of Circles. Why? That was my original post actually, and I refer to it as borders school cause it's easier. You said that I was for 'pro life imprisonment' but really a borders school is a good alternative..
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 2, 2016 22:58:47 GMT
Murderer is murderer, no matter, mage or not. Yeah, but with the abomantion it's not their fault they got themselves possessed by a demon. How can anyone judge someone who's not aware of what they did? I agree with you that circles should be more like boarding schools, where mages can learn to control their powers and reduce their chances of becoming abominations as much as possible. If I remember correctly, most abominations in the games have been either mages with little training, or mages whose desperation led to merging with a spirit or a demon. If you don't have untrained apostates running around, and you don't have mages afraid for their lives due to real circle conditions (Kirkwall) or perceived circle conditions (other places), then you have far fewer abominations to begin with. You cure the ones that can be cured, using the Avvar method. And for the others...there may be no choice but to either quarantine or execute them. I am opposed to isolating or otherwise punishing mages preemptively who have done nothing wrong, but a demon-possessed mage is a definite danger to everyone, and must be dealt with if they cannot be cured.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 2, 2016 23:00:56 GMT
I support both and I have my criticisms of both this does not have to be an either/ or sort of situation. Both of them have their greivances, both of them have good points, and both of them have some really shoddy execution. In a world where magic exisists and magic has been used to rule over everyone else and in a world where magic users can be corrupted against their own will and turned into horrors it is clear that a force must exisist which specializes in hunting them down. The Templars. They just take it to the extreme, or have traditionally, of locking up everyone who is a mage regardless of whether or not they are a threat or not. Which only exasberates the problems and not solve them. Problem 2 is mages do not have a say in their own governance nor in policing themselves. There are no Mages in the Templars. Which leads to problem number 3, the over use of Lyrium. Templars, to be Templars, are treated horribly. They are forced/ have to take a highly addicive highly dangerous, highly suspcious substance. This is abusive to them in the long term condemnning all Templars who take the Lyrium to vegetablehood in their old age. Clearly the Chantry, and Templars, going forward should try lessening the Templars need to take Lyrium in the future.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 2, 2016 23:04:06 GMT
I take it nobody heard of a gilded cage. Who wouldn't want to live in a house covered in gold? Do you think: so much mage want to be uncontrollable abomination? I think: really few mages want to risk this, then if they know, how to uses safely their magic, they will use on this way, and don't forget, the people don't always use their weapon. Much mages don't want to throw fireballs, just live their life. And I wrote (very often), need effective police (not lyrium addict Templars, rather similar than the Seekers), and registration. The registration already exist: this is the Chantry's blood magic – the phylactery system. this is not that bad, if uses only to catch the criminals. Not every abomination wants to become one. If mages had to be willing to become abominations, the situation would be much less dangerous. And the lyrium addiction doesn't make Templars ineffective until the end-stage. Before that it actually makes them more effective, since without the anti-magic it grants them the Templars have a really dangerous job. (Not that the lyrium makes it safe: it just makes it relatively so.) Without that, the Templars only hope is to have a mage embedded with every unit... which they should be doing anyway, but if the other Templars don't have anti-magic there will be a lot of fights where they're more hindrance than help. Templars are more ineffecctive than Spiritual warriors vs mages since the latter have spell immunity and Dodge ability and don't need lyrium,but of course few can afford to become SW,i even think that they are better than mages since they fuse themselves with ancient spirits.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 3, 2016 2:08:10 GMT
I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
1. Gameplay wise, mage fits my playstyle best, so it's my favorite class. RP wise, I've had a canon pro mage world state going since my Warden. Story wise, I think the mages are right about the state of the Circle system, Templar overreach, and that needing to change. 2. I don't dislike them, it's more about how the institutions were corrupted and no longer benefiting anyone, I think. 3. Sort of, I haven't done a complete pro Templar world state, but I've seen the different quests/endings. 4. I don't liken them to mutants really. I guess Bioware seems to be heading in that kind of direction. But I would still feel the same way about it. I don't think people should be preemptively locked up just for being different or having different abilities. They are still human. In terms of power balance, many seem to see this as mage versus non mage, but that ignores the fact that Templars have a great deal of authority and power over mundanes themselves, as well as unique abilities to effect reality. They are an Andrastian mystical order, which is also a military order, but they are essentially warrior monks. 5. The lore doesn't really say blood/lyrium are necessary, it just enhances abilities. There's a lot of fear and ignorance about spirits and demons, generally. But I think integrating Templars and mages back into normal society benefits everyone from their collective knowledge and abilities. 6. Well yes they all have holes because there are no perfect solutions. At some point you have to decide if the cure is worse than the disease though. 7. Yes, I still would oppose Tevinter slavery.
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