Gya
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Post by Gya on Jan 15, 2018 23:33:50 GMT
Pie-In-The-Sky:Give up on classes, go to a straight skills-based system, ala MEA. All I've ever wanted in an RPG was to be able to teleport behind an enemy and backstab them with dual massive greatswords.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 15, 2018 23:55:40 GMT
Abilities like Twin Fangs don't do very well against enemies that are not human sized or that have four or more legs. Trying to backstab a phoenix or spider with Twin Fangs is pretty comedic. Your character will chase the enemy around the battle field, never landing the blow, but blocking you from triggering a new ability. Even just regular melee, if you don't lock onto the target, you miss a pretty high percentage of times, unless you use AoE daggers. it's been a while since i've played inquisition, however i seem to recall having plenty of issues with human enemies as well, but large or multi legged creature are the worst, i do remember that. ---edit Pie-In-The-Sky:Give up on classes, go to a straight skills-based system, ala MEA. All I've ever wanted in an RPG was to be able to teleport behind an enemy and backstab them with dual massive greatswords. so, you're looking for something like an orc, barbarian... um, assassin? *shivers*
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Gya
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Post by Gya on Jan 16, 2018 0:52:30 GMT
Abilities like Twin Fangs don't do very well against enemies that are not human sized or that have four or more legs. Trying to backstab a phoenix or spider with Twin Fangs is pretty comedic. Your character will chase the enemy around the battle field, never landing the blow, but blocking you from triggering a new ability. Even just regular melee, if you don't lock onto the target, you miss a pretty high percentage of times, unless you use AoE daggers. it's been a while since i've played inquisition, however i seem to recall having plenty of issues with human enemies as well, but large or multi legged creature are the worst, i do remember that. ---edit All I've ever wanted in an RPG was to be able to teleport behind an enemy and backstab them with dual massive greatswords. so, you're looking for something like an orc, barbarian... um, assassin? *shivers* Yeah, pretty much! Though I'd settle for a battlemage. Who dual wields massive greatswords. Yes, I'm weird...
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 16, 2018 1:34:15 GMT
I miss Hail of Arrows. Or some kind of spread arrow shot. Explosive is nice, but...it's all about the feel.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 16, 2018 2:54:00 GMT
I also miss weapon swapping like we had in DA:O, and I'd say Rogues feel its absence the most. My pie-in-the sky wish though would be for full gear-set swapping. I liked the "feel" of the dual-dagger combat in DA2, and the cinematic finishers we had in DA:O. Shadow of Mordor/War had good cinematic finishers as well. In lieu of that, more weapon options would be nice. Bows I felt were good in DA:I, though I wouldn't have minded a little more audio "oomph" with regular bow-shots. And I liked some of the bow tricks you could do in SoM/HZD. More pie-in-the sky, I miss some of the thieving fundamentals, especially as I'm playing Skyrim right now. Things like picking pockets, robbing places, slipping various poison to unsuspecting enemies, setting & dealing with traps, etc. And even more pie-in-the-sky... interactive environments, especially for the big set-piece battles. Playgrounds a good rogue could take advantage of. Dousing lights to gain stealth advantages, sabotaging platforms to drop enemies, using arrow shots to detonate traps enemies had set for you, sever ropes, etc.. Use carefully placed bombs to create rock-slides, or bring down weakened walls onto enemies. Funnel enemies into traps you've created, or trip enemies up into environmental hazards. Lastly, if we're not going to have more ability slots to play with, maybe something like combo-abilities would help. A single ability that chains together 2 or 3 loosely-timed attacks to string together several different effects. I believe Kingdoms of Amalur had a few like this. For example, you could have a Parry-Riposte-Cripple ability. Each stage requires a loosely-timed button click, first to block an incoming attack, then an immediate counter-attack for decent damage and momentary stun, followed by a hamstring attack for slow effect & bleeding damage. But it's interruptible, or you could really blow the timing, so there's some risk/reward attached to it. Or something like using your bow to set up HorizonZD-like tripwires... The basic idea is trying to do more with fewer abilities.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 16, 2018 4:37:47 GMT
i miss the tactician achievement form DA:O. what was the requirement for that one again? killing 250 enemies without taking return fire or some such? i don't see that working in DA2 or DA:I.
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Post by aslightjump on Jan 16, 2018 6:36:21 GMT
Rogue is my favorite class in all three games. If I could take the mobility of the DW Rogue from DA2 with the weapon/class variety from DAO/A and the Archer Rogue from DAI with some add-ins from DA2's archer, I would be a happy camper in DA4 in regards to Rogues. I really ended up enjoying Artificer and Tempest once I got used to them, and Assassin we've always sort of had. I don't miss the Ranger class at all as I found it rather ridiculous for anybody not an elf, although I do miss the Shadow class from DAA (although x2, I always found it a bit OP.)
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coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Jan 16, 2018 11:59:57 GMT
I'd mostly like to see an increase in passives, things like:
- 25% chance for enemy attacks to miss, not generate less threat, but a chance to outright dodge automatically. - Increase in speed, upgradeable 3 times, say 5%, 7% & 10% - increased chance to get rare loot from chests. I'm sure I've had this in a game before, but I can't for the life of me remember where, ok, it would mean switching to a rogue to open chests if you're not playing one & once again have it upgradeable like the speed. - Pickpocket NPC's, great way to generate extra income in city like areas - First person aiming for bows, both in & out of battle with bonus damage/outright kill for headshot depending on enemy (just a gameplay mechanic not actually a passive skill). - A single choice passive where you choose from all attacks have a 5% chance to inflict either, bleeding, poison or confusion.
Just my thoughts
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Jan 16, 2018 12:56:20 GMT
I really enjoyed Rogue in DA2. Couldn't get going with it as a class in DAI.
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yeah rip
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Post by yeah rip on Jan 16, 2018 16:11:47 GMT
Back to "do it like Origins did it", I would also like weapon-swapping back. And it's not about just rogues, but I would like it if every class could use any weapon if they meet the stat requirements. Except for staves, obviously, though non-mages could just whack things with them, I guess. I remember giving Alistair a bow when we fought that teleporting demon in the temple of sacred ashes, just because I hated having Alistair chase it around the battlefield. Since I dumped most of Alistair's points in dexterity, he did very well. I'd like the combat to be more versatile like that in the future. I would also like the animations to be more "grounded", like on Origins (except the mages). DA2's hack-n-slashy animations were too cartoony and ridiculous. DAI did better, but it still feels like I'm just cutting through air when I play with daggers. Also, can we please get rid of this dagger design? They look like they're more likely to hurt the wielder, not the enemy. Overall, less Rule of Cool would be nice. I don't see the point of Ranger class tbh, but I wouldn't mind it being in the game if there was something that made it distinct from other specs, aside from summoning beasts. Maybe doing bonus damage against animals, or making the hostile animals less likely to attack if a Ranger is in the party or something like that. What hit detection issues? Abilities like Twin Fangs don't do very well against enemies that are not human sized or that have four or more legs. Trying to backstab a phoenix or spider with Twin Fangs is pretty comedic. Your character will chase the enemy around the battle field, never landing the blow, but blocking you from triggering a new ability. Even just regular melee, if you don't lock onto the target, you miss a pretty high percentage of times, unless you use AoE daggers. Actually, elemental mines don't seem to do anything against dragons in my game either. I think other multi-sectioned enemies were okay, though maybe not giants.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 16, 2018 17:26:55 GMT
Pie-In-The-Sky:Give up on classes, go to a straight skills-based system, ala MEA. All I've ever wanted in an RPG was to be able to teleport behind an enemy and backstab them with dual massive greatswords. I think you can do that in Dark Souls?
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Post by fylimar on Jan 16, 2018 17:31:47 GMT
Back to "do it like Origins did it", I would also like weapon-swapping back. And it's not about just rogues, but I would like it if every class could use any weapon if they meet the stat requirements. Except for staves, obviously, though non-mages could just whack things with them, I guess. I remember giving Alistair a bow when we fought that teleporting demon in the temple of sacred ashes, just because I hated having Alistair chase it around the battlefield. Considering that I dumped most of Alistair's points in dexterity, he did very well. I'd like the combat to be more versatile like that in the future. I would also like the animations to be more "grounded", like on Origins (except the mages). DA2's hack-n-slashy animations were too cartoony and ridiculous. DAI did better, but it still feels like I'm just cutting through air when I play with daggers. Also, can we please get rid of this dagger design? They look like they're more likely to hurt the wielder, not the enemy. Overall, less Rule of Cool would be nice. I don't see the point of Ranger class tbh, but I wouldn't mind it being in the game if there was something that made it distinct from other specs, aside from summoning beasts. Maybe doing bonus damage against animals, or making the hostile animals less likely to attack if a Ranger is in the party or something like that. Abilities like Twin Fangs don't do very well against enemies that are not human sized or that have four or more legs. Trying to backstab a phoenix or spider with Twin Fangs is pretty comedic. Your character will chase the enemy around the battle field, never landing the blow, but blocking you from triggering a new ability. Even just regular melee, if you don't lock onto the target, you miss a pretty high percentage of times, unless you use AoE daggers. Actually, elemental mines don't seem to do anything against dragons in my game either. I think other multi-sectioned enemies were okay, though maybe not giants. For the ranger class some kind of charm animal feat would be great. Or you can sense hostile animals sooner. I'm so sick in running into a pack of great bears with trials on after a though fight. So that really could come in handy. Who hasn't died from a min after a successful but tough boss fight, being left with no healing potion...
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Gya
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Post by Gya on Jan 16, 2018 18:26:00 GMT
All I've ever wanted in an RPG was to be able to teleport behind an enemy and backstab them with dual massive greatswords. I think you can do that in Dark Souls? You can certainly powerstance 2 ultra greatswords in DS2. And Ringed Knight paired greatswords kinda count in DS3, I suppose. But there's no pseudo-magical equivalent of DA2 assassinate or DAI twin fangs
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Post by fylimar on Jan 16, 2018 18:36:16 GMT
I think you can do that in Dark Souls? You can certainly powerstance 2 ultra greatswords in DS2. And Ringed Knight paired greatswords kinda count in DS3, I suppose. But there's no pseudo-magical equivalent of DA2 assassinate or DAI twin fangs Yeah, you're right. Apart from backstabbing, I don't remember a rogueish attack in DS, that is comparable with the rogue feats in DA from animation (and the animation of most dw attacks in DA2 and DAI are great imo). I'm far from being a DS experts though
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 16, 2018 18:41:28 GMT
I'd be very disappointed if they did away with classes. They're what Dragon Age is all about (or at least, a large part of it).
What I really want is for rogues to go back to their role from the first two games as lockpickers and trap disarmers.
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Post by cloud9 on Jan 19, 2018 22:17:56 GMT
I prefer a classless character to create my own build, instead of choosing a class and stick with it till the end of the game.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 20, 2018 5:29:32 GMT
I prefer a classless character to create my own build, instead of choosing a class and stick with it till the end of the game. In games where we're primarily a solo act (Elder Scrolls, Witcher, etc.), I definitely prefer classless as well. But in games where we're part of a team (DA, ME, etc.), I still prefer distinct classes, with individuals filling specific roles. (Maybe that's just the grognard in me... ) I think it also adds to the game's replay value.
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Post by cloud9 on Jan 20, 2018 17:21:23 GMT
I prefer a classless character to create my own build, instead of choosing a class and stick with it till the end of the game. In games where we're primarily a solo act (Elder Scrolls, Witcher, etc.), I definitely prefer classless as well. But in games where we're part of a team (DA, ME, etc.), I still prefer distinct classes, with individuals filling specific roles. (Maybe that's just the grognard in me... ) I think it also adds to the game's replay value. I rather have a flexible character to customize and design my build, than choosing a class and unable to have abilities from different classes. I wanted mine to be a rogue with magical powers capable of swift and deadlines in combat.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2018 18:13:57 GMT
I hope they bring back some of Origin's versatility for all classes, where any character could use any weapon or armor, provided they had the stats for it. Obviously, some classes should still be better at one thing (warriors tank, rogues dps, mages cc), but being able to switch out grants more opportunities and replay value. Plus it makes more sense in universe for a Dalish Warrior to be able to use a bow and arrows, or an apostate mage to wear heavy armor in anticipation of Templars.
By contrast, I think Specializations should have completely unique abilities, rather than upgraded general ones. Also, I hope they bring back DA2's personal Specializations for Companions, as it made them more interesting, separates their skills from player ones, fits more lore and personality wise, and gave players good reasons to try them all. For player Specializations, I would like new ones that rework and refine old ones, like a Gladiator instead of a Berserker. The Ranger can come back, though.
If Templars are available in DA4, I would rather they make them rogues this time around. Since Imperial Templars don't have access to lyrium, it would make more sense that they would have to use stealth, hit and run and gadgets to combat maleficar. From a story trope standpoint, they would also have to rely more on undercover spying, shifting political alliances, and black ops. Hell, they could kill two birds with one stone and have a Magekiller join the Imperial Templars. From a combat perspective, I would imagine the Tevinter Templar would play like a cross between the Artificer and Tempest.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2018 21:00:11 GMT
I prefer a classless character to create my own build, instead of choosing a class and stick with it till the end of the game. In games where we're primarily a solo act (Elder Scrolls, Witcher, etc.), I definitely prefer classless as well. But in games where we're part of a team (DA, ME, etc.), I still prefer distinct classes, with individuals filling specific roles. (Maybe that's just the grognard in me... ) I think it also adds to the game's replay value. But that's just the thing. An all skills system allows you to do that. You want to pile nothing but rogue skills on one character and nothing but magic skills on another? Go right ahead. The class just becomes RP/headcanon. Of course, if you want the game world to respond to your character's class, that's a different story. Still possible -- "class" can be turned into backstory, ala Sherpard's Spacer/Earthborn/Colonist trait -- but I could understand why people would find that a lot of trouble for not much gain.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2018 22:55:09 GMT
In games where we're primarily a solo act (Elder Scrolls, Witcher, etc.), I definitely prefer classless as well. But in games where we're part of a team (DA, ME, etc.), I still prefer distinct classes, with individuals filling specific roles. (Maybe that's just the grognard in me... ) I think it also adds to the game's replay value. But that's just the thing. An all skills system allows you to do that. You want to pile nothing but rogue skills on one character and nothing but magic skills on another? Go right ahead. The class just becomes RP/headcanon. Of course, if you want the game world to respond to your character's class, that's a different story. Still possible -- "class" can be turned into backstory, ala Sherpard's Spacer/Earthborn/Colonist trait -- but I could understand why people would find that a lot of trouble for not much gain. For me, a classless system would be wrong for Dragon Age for a few reasons:
Lore- Magic in DA is a genetic recessive that few have access to. Even if Solas permanently brings down the Veil and gives magic to everyone, most people won't know how to use it properly. It would be years before the general populace (assuming they survive) becomes competent at even the most basic spell craft, so most would stick with what they already know.
Tone- All things considered, DA is fairly realistic by fantasy video game standards. Whether sports, martial arts, hunting, computer hacking, etcetera, most people are better at some things than others. A large athletic person will, nine times out of ten, make a better warrior than a smaller, more intellectually inclined person. There are exceptions to every rule, but in my experience this tends to be the case. You could argue that fantasy is more idealized, but like I said DA is and should be more realistic.
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 21, 2018 4:59:17 GMT
In games where we're primarily a solo act (Elder Scrolls, Witcher, etc.), I definitely prefer classless as well. But in games where we're part of a team (DA, ME, etc.), I still prefer distinct classes, with individuals filling specific roles. (Maybe that's just the grognard in me... ) I think it also adds to the game's replay value. But that's just the thing. An all skills system allows you to do that. You want to pile nothing but rogue skills on one character and nothing but magic skills on another? Go right ahead. The class just becomes RP/headcanon. Of course, if you want the game world to respond to your character's class, that's a different story. Still possible -- "class" can be turned into backstory, ala Sherpard's Spacer/Earthborn/Colonist trait -- but I could understand why people would find that a lot of trouble for not much gain. And these are good reasons why I like classless for solo games, but I think there is value in niche protection in team-based RPGs. Even setting aside how magic ability is handled in DA, I think having those archetypes is helpful in establishing the companions' identity and deter creating entire teams with identical specs. In a classless game, there's the potential for there being a single, optimal build, or just a very narrow set of builds. That would certainly have an impact on MP, and even SP if you couldn't resist the temptation to min/max the team identically.
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PapaCharlie9
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 21, 2018 19:27:37 GMT
But that's just the thing. An all skills system allows you to do that. You want to pile nothing but rogue skills on one character and nothing but magic skills on another? Go right ahead. The class just becomes RP/headcanon. Of course, if you want the game world to respond to your character's class, that's a different story. Still possible -- "class" can be turned into backstory, ala Sherpard's Spacer/Earthborn/Colonist trait -- but I could understand why people would find that a lot of trouble for not much gain. For me, a classless system would be wrong for Dragon Age for a few reasons:
Lore- Magic in DA is a genetic recessive that few have access to. Even if Solas permanently brings down the Veil and gives magic to everyone, most people won't know how to use it properly. It would be years before the general populace (assuming they survive) becomes competent at even the most basic spell craft, so most would stick with what they already know.
Tone- All things considered, DA is fairly realistic by fantasy video game standards. Whether sports, martial arts, hunting, computer hacking, etcetera, most people are better at some things than others. A large athletic person will, nine times out of ten, make a better warrior than a smaller, more intellectually inclined person. There are exceptions to every rule, but in my experience this tends to be the case. You could argue that fantasy is more idealized, but like I said DA is and should be more realistic.
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing.
Okay, very well put and interesting. Here are my counter-arguments. First, let me say that the degree to which game design reflects game lore is a creative decision, which is neither good nor bad. However, the more the game design reflects game lore, the less player agency there is for character creation. So that's what's at stake. Cutting to the punch line, I think our arguments are going to boil down to the relative importance of player agency to game lore. If you favor agency more than lore, you'll favor skills-based systems more. If you favor lore over agency, you'll favor class-based systems more. Now, my point-by-point responses: > Magic in DA is a genetic recessive that few have access to. Is it the rarity that you are concerned about, or the genetic basis? If the latter, race and gender are also genetic, but we don't make classes out of them, or more to the point, we don't impact the capabilities of the character in the game system as much as we do for class. If it's the rarity aspect, fine, make the magic skills expensive, problem solved. Personally, I would prefer to make the magic gene be a trait you have to buy with skill points, but once you do, you unlock the magic skills. There's nothing in DA lore that says a mage can't also wield dual daggers, a bow, or a sword and shield, so why enforce those restrictions so deeply in the game system? > A large athletic person will, nine times out of ten, make a better warrior than a smaller, more intellectually inclined person. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? During character creation, what I decide first is what kind of character I want to play, and then make their physical characteristics consistent with that decision. Not the other way around. I would even be okay with spending points in warrior skills causing the muscle density of my character to increase as a side-effect. I don't see how this has any connection to "class", though. The long and short of it is that classes in DA came ultimately from tRPG D&D, and has nothing to do with realism. > Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Nothing? Maybe the PC plays solo? If that's what the player wanted, more power to them. Why must the game system legislate how any particular player plays the game? On the other hand, if someone really enjoys crafting a well-balanced party with complementary skills, there is nothing about a skills-based system that prevents them from doing so. You can archetype the heck out of your party if you want. I would even argue that a class-based system can throw more roadblocks in the way of party balance than a skills-based one. It puts the player into conflicts, like, I want a tank, DPS, mage and support in my party, and I want to play mage, but I also want my LI to be in the party with me, for bonus banter, but my LI is also a mage! Curse you, game system, for making me sacrifice one goal for another! Why can't I do both?
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 21, 2018 22:39:54 GMT
For me, a classless system would be wrong for Dragon Age for a few reasons:
Lore- Magic in DA is a genetic recessive that few have access to. Even if Solas permanently brings down the Veil and gives magic to everyone, most people won't know how to use it properly. It would be years before the general populace (assuming they survive) becomes competent at even the most basic spell craft, so most would stick with what they already know.
Tone- All things considered, DA is fairly realistic by fantasy video game standards. Whether sports, martial arts, hunting, computer hacking, etcetera, most people are better at some things than others. A large athletic person will, nine times out of ten, make a better warrior than a smaller, more intellectually inclined person. There are exceptions to every rule, but in my experience this tends to be the case. You could argue that fantasy is more idealized, but like I said DA is and should be more realistic.
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing.
Okay, very well put and interesting. Here are my counter-arguments. First, let me say that the degree to which game design reflects game lore is a creative decision, which is neither good nor bad. However, the more the game design reflects game lore, the less player agency there is for character creation. So that's what's at stake. Cutting to the punch line, I think our arguments are going to boil down to the relative importance of player agency to game lore. If you favor agency more than lore, you'll favor skills-based systems more. If you favor lore over agency, you'll favor class-based systems more. I actually addressed this in an earlier post: I miss Origins' class versatility and would like to see it return, but not at the expense of classes altogether. Core classes provide flavor to classic tropes to support and/or deconstruct ( the Knight in Shining Armor, the Swashbuckling Rogue, the Dreaded Necromancer, etcetera) within the story. A generic hero can still work, but there's not as much detail to work with, in my opinion. Gameplay wise, there's less planning and strategy, less thought on which Companion would be right for a particular mission, and less replay value if you can do anything at anytime. This is one of my pet peeves with The Elder Scrolls; when I had access to everything at once, few my choices for my character felt like they mattered in his identity, and I had no incentive to ever reroll. Just RP with Self Imposed Challenges you say? You could, but it felt like an obtuse cheat to me.
The treatment of magic in Dragon Age (elusive, dangerous, attracts demons, only certain people have, and so on...), as opposed to other fantasy video games, was one of the few things that made it interesting to me. Magic wasn't just another poor metaphor for technology in a medieval setting, it was alive again, with it's own rules and prices. If the writers allow Solas to succeed in bringing down the Veil, magic becomes just another mundane dump stat. Worse, DA loses just a little more of it's identity, inching closer to generic fantasy RPGs. What's the point of even having magic if it's indistinguishable from science? We may as well just gadgets and guns.
My comment here had more to do with Suspension of Disbelief and overall series tone than character skills.
Once again, because having strategic pause and play with 3 other role based party members is what the core of Dragon Age combat is based on. You knew this when you bought the games, but now you want to go to a Chinese restaurant and complain that they have no pasta. There any number of other games that allow classless soloing, why is it so bad that DA offers an alternative? Do you really want to destroy more of DA's unique identity for another homogenous design?
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