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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2018 21:44:02 GMT
When you actually put the accent on each one, I read it as "clich-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay". Even better xD It couldn't be any clearer that if Inky dies or gets removed, things end how they end. And in terms of gaining information on two major Cory plans, we do get pretty direct information from one of our companions, who further discuss what happened. I'm not sure how much clearer they could be.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 22:31:30 GMT
It couldn't be any clearer that if Inky dies or gets removed, things end how they end. And in terms of gaining information on two major Cory plans, we do get pretty direct information from one of our companions, who further discuss what happened. I'm not sure how much clearer they could be. That first part is kind of what I mean. With IHW, you get a very clear picture of how things end up without the Inquisitor (or, more aptly at that point, I guess, the Herald). However, you don't really find out much about the how of it. You know Celene dies, but not that there's a distinct plan to assassinate her. You know "the Elder One" unleashed demons, but not that he had a faction of people actually summoning demons for the purpose of it. You get more of those things by playing CotJ, although that means that in exchange, you don't get the benefit of knowing the degree of threat that those plans really signify.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 22, 2018 22:36:31 GMT
Other strong reason to IHW if you play dalish, no matter mage or not. The Templars are enemies of the dalish elves. I don't think they ever could trust them Tevinter are also bigger enemies of elves generally and the big bad when it comes to their history since they enslaved them for hundreds of years. So my Dalish elf automatically did not trust Dorian or Alexius. Took an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach to the Templars and promptly disbanded the order after defeating the Envy Demon, bringing the surviving Templars under his control. He was not a mage and so one look at what was going on in Redcliffe (I always do go to Redcliffe first) made him realise he was out of his depth and needed some expert help. The very fact that he knew Templars hunt Dalish Keepers meant he knew they at least did have some expertise in dealing with mages. Nor do you have to do IHW simply because you are romancing Dorian. My Dalish started to realise he had misjudged Dorian precisely because he rejected his help and yet Dorian still came to warn them and then helped the wounded and dying. They ended up devoted lovers. My biggest dislike of IHW was the time travel element. Without that I might have been willing to go with it more as my canon run through. Mind you, in CoJ, I still find it implausible that a whole group of Orlesians can march deep into Ferelden territory and no one bats an eyelid, whilst Ferelden nobility were conspicuous by their absence and surely just as valuable in persuading the Templars. I'd have preferred it if it hadn't so obviously been a choice between one or the other and both stories could have in some way been intertwined with a few differences depending on which group you went to first. The fact that certain character development about Corypheus was totally absent from IHW was I feel wrong. That should have been equally available on both paths. I'd also mention that if you imprison Alexius, then his conversation with other prisoners seems to contradict the idea that he joined up with Corypheus solely to help Felix. He seemed to think it was justified in saving/restoring Tevinter too so he was as deluded as the rest of the Venatori.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2018 23:04:08 GMT
Other strong reason to IHW if you play dalish, no matter mage or not. The Templars are enemies of the dalish elves. I don't think they ever could trust them Tevinter are also bigger enemies of elves generally and the big bad when it comes to their history since they enslaved them for hundreds of years. So my Dalish elf automatically did not trust Dorian or Alexius. Took an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach to the Templars and promptly disbanded the order after defeating the Envy Demon, bringing the surviving Templars under his control. He was not a mage and so one look at what was going on in Redcliffe (I always do go to Redcliffe first) made him realise he was out of his depth and needed some expert help. The very fact that he knew Templars hunt Dalish Keepers meant he knew they at least did have some expertise in dealing with mages.
Nor do you have to do IHW simply because you are romancing Dorian. My Dalish started to realise he had misjudged Dorian precisely because he rejected his help and yet Dorian still came to warn them and then helped the wounded and dying. They ended up devoted lovers.
My biggest dislike of IHW was the time travel element. Without that I might have been willing to go with it more as my canon run through. Mind you, in CoJ, I still find it implausible that a whole group of Orlesians can march deep into Ferelden territory and no one bats an eyelid, whilst Ferelden nobility were conspicuous by their absence and surely just as valuable in persuading the Templars.
I'd have preferred it if it hadn't so obviously been a choice between one or the other and both stories could have in some way been intertwined with a few differences depending on which group you went to first. The fact that certain character development about Corypheus was totally absent from IHW was I feel wrong. That should have been equally available on both paths.
I'd also mention that if you imprison Alexius, then his conversation with other prisoners seems to contradict the idea that he joined up with Corypheus solely to help Felix. He seemed to think it was justified in saving/restoring Tevinter too so he was as deluded as the rest of the Venatori. To disband the Templars is tempting stuff, yes. The Inquisitor doesn't go to Redcliffe to bind an alliance with Tevinter, but because Fiona invited his/her, while the Templars refused the offer (it hard to forget!). And when the Inquisitor already arrives in Redcliffe, sees, that the mages are in trouble. It seems, that Fiona's a reluctant ally, not really agree with Alexius, and the situation is weird. Yes, the Inquisitor can leave them, but what expects from the Templars?
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2018 23:45:29 GMT
It couldn't be any clearer that if Inky dies or gets removed, things end how they end. And in terms of gaining information on two major Cory plans, we do get pretty direct information from one of our companions, who further discuss what happened. I'm not sure how much clearer they could be. That first part is kind of what I mean. With IHW, you get a very clear picture of how things end up without the Inquisitor (or, more aptly at that point, I guess, the Herald). However, you don't really find out much about the how of it. You know Celene dies, but not that there's a distinct plan to assassinate her. You know "the Elder One" unleashed demons, but not that he had a faction of people actually summoning demons for the purpose of it. You get more of those things by playing CotJ, although that means that in exchange, you don't get the benefit of knowing the degree of threat that those plans really signify. ... Are you sure we're actually gaining any specific information about Celene's assassination in CotJ? Most we get to know is that Cory wants her dead. In any case - after both quests we know enough to make about the same conclusions, as well as an assumption that it may happen on the grand ball. And when it comes to demon army... we piece that mostly through interaction with Hawke and chosen Warden and later investigation.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 23, 2018 0:25:19 GMT
There are parts of Champions of the Just that I really like, but I think In Hushed Whispers works so much more for the narrative for a few reasons, primarily because the introduction of odd Tevinter mages practically taking over Redcliffe just seems like super bad juju that needs to be investigated, and that’s always introduced first.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2018 11:57:27 GMT
The Inquisitor doesn't go to Redcliffe to bind an alliance with Tevinter, but because Fiona invited his/her, while the Templars refused the offer (it hard to forget!). And when the Inquisitor already arrives in Redcliffe, sees, that the mages are in trouble. It seems, that Fiona's a reluctant ally, not really agree with Alexius, and the situation is weird. Yes, the Inquisitor can leave them, but what expects from the Templars? The problem is the explanation for Fiona's memory loss as being time magic. As the Inquisitor points out to Dorian, essentially you are meant to take a leap of faith that it is "time magic, go for it". Since none of his allies seem to back up the claim that time magic is even possible, and we have always been told that magic has its limits previously, why should my Dalish believe some random mage from Tevinter? What seemed more likely is that Fiona is being manipulated by blood magic. May be other mages are too. Then I'm meant to simply walk into a castle full of mages when I'm the only person who can seal the Breach? It's illogical. Plus the idea that you pour more magic into the Breach to seal it did seem a rather dangerous idea and you are having to trust that Alexius will actually want to do this and that it won't simply bust it wide open. This Tevinter Magister who so conveniently turned up at the same time as the explosion at the Conclave. You have already demonstrated that you can open rifts as well as close them. At the very least wouldn't it be wise to have some magic negation on hand to supress things if it all goes horribly wrong? I'd also opened the shack with the Tranquil skulls. These Venatori people are evil and not to be trusted. I've had this debate before though. Really, if you examine them too closely, then neither option makes much sense. In fact Fiona travelling across the length of Thedas with the entire mage rebellion to attend the Conclave, when just a few select individuals could have done so, makes no sense either. Also, if she felt they were losing the fight, why not just pop over the border into Tevinter from Andoral's Reach or wherever they had got to in northern Thedas, if she was going to give up her people's freedom in indentured servitude anyway? The mages had made the decision to fight for their freedom come what may, encouraged by Fiona, and then she backtracks when things seem difficult. This was another reason my Dalish could not respect her. "We are the Dalish and never again will we submit". That applies to the Chantry but most particularly Tevinter.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
The Inquisitor doesn't go to Redcliffe to bind an alliance with Tevinter, but because Fiona invited his/her, while the Templars refused the offer (it hard to forget!). And when the Inquisitor already arrives in Redcliffe, sees, that the mages are in trouble. It seems, that Fiona's a reluctant ally, not really agree with Alexius, and the situation is weird. Yes, the Inquisitor can leave them, but what expects from the Templars? The problem is the explanation for Fiona's memory loss as being time magic. As the Inquisitor points out to Dorian, essentially you are meant to take a leap of faith that it is "time magic, go for it". Since none of his allies seem to back up the claim that time magic is even possible, and we have always been told that magic has its limits previously, why should my Dalish believe some random mage from Tevinter?
What seemed more likely is that Fiona is being manipulated by blood magic. May be other mages are too. Then I'm meant to simply walk into a castle full of mages when I'm the only person who can seal the Breach? It's illogical. Plus the idea that you pour more magic into the Breach to seal it did seem a rather dangerous idea and you are having to trust that Alexius will actually want to do this and that it won't simply bust it wide open. This Tevinter Magister who so conveniently turned up at the same time as the explosion at the Conclave. You have already demonstrated that you can open rifts as well as close them. At the very least wouldn't it be wise to have some magic negation on hand to supress things if it all goes horribly wrong? I'd also opened the shack with the Tranquil skulls. These Venatori people are evil and not to be trusted.
I've had this debate before though. Really, if you examine them too closely, then neither option makes much sense. In fact Fiona travelling across the length of Thedas with the entire mage rebellion to attend the Conclave, when just a few select individuals could have done so, makes no sense either. Also, if she felt they were losing the fight, why not just pop over the border into Tevinter from Andoral's Reach or wherever they had got to in northern Thedas, if she was going to give up her people's freedom in indentured servitude anyway? The mages had made the decision to fight for their freedom come what may, encouraged by Fiona, and then she backtracks when things seem difficult. This was another reason my Dalish could not respect her. "We are the Dalish and never again will we submit". That applies to the Chantry but most particularly Tevinter. The Inquisitor can believe or not, what Felix and Dorian say, but the situation still weird, and jeopardizes not only the mages, but the whole Redcliffe, and perhaps more. Anyway, your arguments are well founded, this is undeniable, and perhaps, I will able to start a run, where I will go for Templars and disband them. I see, there some reasons for it, but to leave Redcliffe still seems a bad idea. (But I suppose, the Mage-Templar war and the Dalish clans were treated poorly and illogically in the Inquisition, especially the Mages, and Fiona and the three-mages-nonsense, what not really consistent.)
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Post by wickedcool on Jan 23, 2018 14:28:17 GMT
Time to end 1 argument- real leaders now and real leaders then travel to continent or globe to meet so please end why the conclave happened. Clearly Fiona is lying
Basically some have a problem with the believability of time magic but not old tevinter scholars who travel to the golden city in basically dragon age version of hell/then get cast out but gain godlike powers. This also caused basically a type of ghoul/zombie apocalypse . So many fantastical elements and yet a powerful mage creating an amulet that distorts time breaks it Additionally we have time magic with hakkon so clearly they have baked it into lore
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2018 14:37:23 GMT
I think the real problem is that the mage rebellion was originally meant to have been a DLC sequel to the events of DA2. It actually merited its own separate story rather then integrating it into Inquisition. Then the mages being in Ferelden would make more sense as the rebellion began in Kirkwall and Alistair, if King, has already been shown in DA2 as sympathetic to their cause, so crossing the narrow stretch of the Waking Sea there would make sense. Presumably the original idea would be that Hawke would either have been leading the mages in their defence or leading the Templars in tracking them down. At the very least the issues could have been dealt with far better than they were.
The issues were more complex than were covered in DAI and, as I've already stated, it made little sense that the mages, who had been placed up on the border between northern Orlais and Tevinter in Asunder, would cross hundreds of miles, fighting past Templars the whole way, plus through the Orlesian Civil War, simply because the monarch of Ferelden had offered them safe haven and the Divine wanted a peace conference, particularly as in the book Fiona had said "F**k the Divine". Mages had already had to travel from all over Thedas to reach Andoral's Reach and it is stated that they could easily withstand a siege there even if vastly outnumbered (assuming of course they could lay in sufficient supplies of food) as it was very defensible.
We also had the fact that Hawke was brought in only when we discovered about Corypheus. Would Varric really not have informed Hawke about the Peace Conference and Hawke declined to get involved, particularly if Anders is still alive and they favoured mage freedom? So the action was completely detached from DA2, something that had been set up in the novel Asunder.
I think the issues behind the Orlesian Civil War were not really dealt with properly in game either. Both these scenarios, that had been set up in novels, really required you to have read the novels to understand what was going on and their resolution felt rushed. So really DAI was trying to cover too much ground in too short a time. Then we discover that then main plot of DAI, the creation of the Breach by magical artefact, had not really been resolved at all because the real culprit had not been identified in the main game and then after he had in the DLC, it was "to be continued".
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 23, 2018 14:43:25 GMT
You make some really good points, gervaise21 but at least in this regard: To be fair, if Hawke was in full agreement with Anders, I think that if s/he was at the Conclave, it probably would've been on the side of the people blowing it up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2018 15:07:31 GMT
To be fair, if Hawke was in full agreement with Anders, I think that if s/he was at the Conclave, it probably would've been on the side of the people blowing it up. Possibly, although I like to think that neither Anders nor Hawke would favour throwing their lot in with the Venatori. More likely they would have intervened and stopped the majority of the mages going anywhere near Ferelden anyway. I forgot to mention that holding the Peace Conference at Haven made no real sense either. It was far too inaccessible for people allegedly travelling from across Thedas and in view of the Orlesian Civil War alone, made it dangerous as well as difficult to get to. Why not the Grand Cathedral in Val Rouyeax if it had to be a site with religious significance? Or simply somewhere in northern Orlais or Nevarra? With the Mortalitasi having far more influence in their country than other mages had in theirs and the original meeting place of the College of Enchanters being in Cumberland, why not hold it there? Instead people were required to travel to an inaccessible mountain location in southern Thedas which was a site that had only been discovered to be of significant to Andrastrians 10 years earlier and where the main reason for this (the Ashes) had already been removed (by the Guardian). Besides whilst the Templars might have been impressed by the location, why would the mages necessarily agree to it?
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 23, 2018 18:37:06 GMT
Time to end 1 argument- real leaders now and real leaders then travel to continent or globe to meet so please end why the conclave happened. Clearly Fiona is lying Lying in what sense? I'm not sure what you're getting at (I mean, nevermind that Lucius was also not present at the Conclave). And it's certainly not a rule that 'real leaders travel to meet' - sending delegations or negotiators in their stead is as common, and it's certainly very common in Thedas. Celene/Gaspard/ruler of Ferelden weren't present at something as important as Exalted Council, and a risk of war between Tevinter and Nevarra has been dealt with by diplomats and negotiators, no rulers required.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 23, 2018 18:50:57 GMT
To be fair, if Hawke was in full agreement with Anders, I think that if s/he was at the Conclave, it probably would've been on the side of the people blowing it up. Possibly, although I like to think that neither Anders nor Hawke would favour throwing their lot in with the Venatori. More likely they would have intervened and stopped the majority of the mages going anywhere near Ferelden anyway. I forgot to mention that holding the Peace Conference at Haven made no real sense either. It was far too inaccessible for people allegedly travelling from across Thedas and in view of the Orlesian Civil War alone, made it dangerous as well as difficult to get to. We can't forget that it's been 10 years since Haven was discovered and it quickly became a place of pilgrimage. Getting there may not have been a walk in the park, but it wasn't inaccessible. The temple that held ashes of Andraste is a site of tremendous religious significance - way beyond Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux. Also: neutral ground (also relatively unfamiliar to anyone). And one that rogue mages and unruly templars would be way more willing to travel to than a seat of power of Orlesian Empire that has also likely retained enough army to pose threat for either side. I mean, nevermind that in case something happened, like negotiations falling apart and mages/templars engaged in open conflict, remote location guaranteed that any magical shenanigans were far away from harming civilians. In fact 'magical shenaningans' indeed happened and literally wiped the Temple from existence and left a gaping hole in the sky that was endlessly spewing demons! Needless to say, one can certainly see sense as to why Conclave has been chosen to happen in a remote location, ways from any significant routes or population. Considering the uncommon volatility of both sides, isolation is wholly advised.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 23, 2018 19:29:16 GMT
What seemed more likely is that Fiona is being manipulated by blood magic. May be other mages are too. Then I'm meant to simply walk into a castle full of mages when I'm the only person who can seal the Breach? It's illogical. Plus the idea that you pour more magic into the Breach to seal it did seem a rather dangerous idea and you are having to trust that Alexius will actually want to do this and that it won't simply bust it wide open. This Tevinter Magister who so conveniently turned up at the same time as the explosion at the Conclave. You have already demonstrated that you can open rifts as well as close them. At the very least wouldn't it be wise to have some magic negation on hand to supress things if it all goes horribly wrong? I'd also opened the shack with the Tranquil skulls. These Venatori people are evil and not to be trusted. The italed is a problem with the entire game, though, not just IHW. And ME1, and god knows how many other RPGs.
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Post by wickedcool on Jan 24, 2018 14:52:58 GMT
Isn’t the Fiona that we meet in Val Roseau’s clearly not the same as the one in redcliffe. I’ve always assumed time magic was involved based on the rift outside of redcliffe and the soldier telling us we weren’t expected. Dorian tells us that Alexis used time magic to conscript the mages. He’s been basically trying multiple time jumps to change outcome/save Felix but the rift prevents him from stopping it I believe he uses the time jump as bill Murray did in Groundhog Day. Basically he tricks Fiona in one timeline and uses her again in another In regards to the conclave. Early earth history has examples of people doing this
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Post by Reznore on Jan 24, 2018 15:05:31 GMT
I think the Champion of the Just following is better. Having Tevinter cultist being the main force, and the relationship between Calpernia and Cory just gives more exposure to the Old Tevinter Darkspawn trying to change the south theme. The Red Templars are just angry men being tricked with Red Lyrium. Also it works better with Cassandra quests with the Seekers, they play a more obvious part in dooming templars.
To be honest I'm not sure the 2 factions being separated this way to give a branching narrative was such a great idea. There's also the issue of a small group of people representing the situation of mages/templars all over Thedas. The conclave being skipped and going directly to the BOOM doesn't give you a real sense of how both of these faction (and the Chantry) suffered massive losses.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2018 15:32:09 GMT
What's actually wrong with using time magic Basically he tricks Fiona in one timeline and uses her again in another The second quote basically answers the first. It would seem that apparently Redcliffe was able to operate in a completely separate time bubble to the rest of Thedas. So Fiona went to Val Royeaux, invited us to Redcliffe and returned there. After this, Alexius wound back time to just after the explosion when the mages were panicking they would be blamed for it, suggested a way out and Fiona found that the majority of her followers were willing to go along with it, partly because the mage rebellion had already been infiltrated by Venatori agents. That's how it was presented to us anyway. However, if Fiona had been willing to travel to Val Royeaux in order to try and make contact with the Inquisitor, this shows that the mages were still holding out hope of negotiating with the Inquisition even though they knew Templars might come after them at any time. She was also able to travel from Redcliffe Castle to Val Royeaux apparently with little trouble, a not inconsiderable distance. So the idea that when Alexius turned up she felt so desperate she simply accepted his offer does not really hold water. Plus, we have the problem of the time bubble that means everything still had to happen as we experienced it or we would never have met Fiona to receive her offer. That whole business would have been better explained without the use of time magic. Alexius turned up after the explosion, Fiona was panicking, he made an offer but she still preferred to try an approach to the Inquisitor first. Alexius was happy to go along with this because he wanted the Inquisitor invited to Redcliffe. When we get there, Fiona remembers our meeting and says she has a new ally whom she wishes to include in negotiations. The timing still seems fishy, Dorian and Felix can still warn us that Alexius is in with a bad crowd, some of the mages can still express concern at their new ally and we find the tranquil skulls. So everything is pretty much the same to justify an alliance and deal with a foreign power having taken over Redcliffe Castle but minus the time magic. Then when we get to the meeting in the Castle, Alexius tries to use his amulet on us, which is now a total surprise, except to Dorian who manages to alter the outcome. We get burped into the future and have to try and return ourselves to the point where the anomaly happened. At least that way we do not have the multiple time-lines problem associated with the earlier time magic use. Unfortunately, even in the future sequence they create further problems with multiple time-lines because the diary makes it clear that Alexius continued to repeatedly try and return to before the explosion occurred. Every time he does this, he is creating a new time line and yet somehow we are still conveniently within it. Not to mention we travel in space as well as time because we ought to have appeared in his throne room yet for some strange reason we end up in the dungeon. This use of time magic is not the same as that in the ruins within the Western Approach and in Jaws of Hakkon. There people just got trapped in their own time bubble in suspended animation whilst everything went on in the world around them. When we break into the time bubble they then carry on where they left off. It is not ideal but it is better than the events at the beginning of IHW.
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Post by wickedcool on Jan 24, 2018 16:16:14 GMT
Doesn’t dorian tell leliana that the timeline doesn’t happen if they fix it. Like Groundhog Day there are no consequences to using the amulet and like Groundhog Day it’s used to gather information . Fiona states she was never in Val roxeaux. Should be question to Mary Kirby who wrote this part I choose the Templars based on war table missions but I love the fight with alexious
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2018 16:32:47 GMT
Fiona states she was never in Val roxeaux Exactly. Then how did she invite us to Redcliffe Castle? This paradox had caused all sorts of theories, such as it was the Envy Demon impersonating her, when it was made quite clear to us, by Dorian, that it was the real Fiona who met us but that subsequently Alexius altered time so to Fiona the meeting never occurred. Except they then have her rubbing her head as though she ought to remember it but doesn't, which would suggest blood magic mind manipulation (perfectly logical considering who we are dealing with) instead of time magic manipulation. Essentially the writers thought it would be cool to introduce time magic into then plot so that IHW could be substantially different to CoJ where we have the normal Fade sequence with everything happening in our mind. They could have done this with IHW, with the dark future just being something that has been created in Alexius' mind (possibly by the Nightmare demon), which is how we know what is going to happen, but they clearly decided time travel was the way to go. Strangely enough, Solas even questions us on our return and asks if it "could have been a trick of the Fade" and disapproves if you say, "Dorian doesn't think so", but is okay if you say you are sure. So I prefer to think it was a trick of the Fade in which Dorian and I had a joint experience rather than time magic that just befuddles me because it is so full of paradoxes.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 24, 2018 16:34:50 GMT
What's actually wrong with using time magic Basically he tricks Fiona in one timeline and uses her again in another The second quote basically answers the first. It would seem that apparently Redcliffe was able to operate in a completely separate time bubble to the rest of Thedas. So Fiona went to Val Royeaux, invited us to Redcliffe and returned there. After this, Alexius wound back time to just after the explosion when the mages were panicking they would be blamed for it, suggested a way out and Fiona found that the majority of her followers were willing to go along with it, partly because the mage rebellion had already been infiltrated by Venatori agents. That's how it was presented to us anyway. However, if Fiona had been willing to travel to Val Royeaux in order to try and make contact with the Inquisitor, this shows that the mages were still holding out hope of negotiating with the Inquisition even though they knew Templars might come after them at any time. She was also able to travel from Redcliffe Castle to Val Royeaux apparently with little trouble, a not inconsiderable distance. So the idea that when Alexius turned up she felt so desperate she simply accepted his offer does not really hold water. Plus, we have the problem of the time bubble that means everything still had to happen as we experienced it or we would never have met Fiona to receive her offer. That whole business would have been better explained without the use of time magic. Alexius turned up after the explosion, Fiona was panicking, he made an offer but she still preferred to try an approach to the Inquisitor first. Alexius was happy to go along with this because he wanted the Inquisitor invited to Redcliffe. When we get there, Fiona remembers our meeting and says she has a new ally whom she wishes to include in negotiations. The timing still seems fishy, Dorian and Felix can still warn us that Alexius is in with a bad crowd, some of the mages can still express concern at their new ally and we find the tranquil skulls. So everything is pretty much the same to justify an alliance and deal with a foreign power having taken over Redcliffe Castle but minus the time magic. Then when we get to the meeting in the Castle, Alexius tries to use his amulet on us, which is now a total surprise, except to Dorian who manages to alter the outcome. We get burped into the future and have to try and return ourselves to the point where the anomaly happened. At least that way we do not have the multiple time-lines problem associated with the earlier time magic use. Unfortunately, even in the future sequence they create further problems with multiple time-lines because the diary makes it clear that Alexius continued to repeatedly try and return to before the explosion occurred. Every time he does this, he is creating a new time line and yet somehow we are still conveniently within it. Not to mention we travel in space as well as time because we ought to have appeared in his throne room yet for some strange reason we end up in the dungeon. This use of time magic is not the same as that in the ruins within the Western Approach and in Jaws of Hakkon. There people just got trapped in their own time bubble in suspended animation whilst everything went on in the world around them. When we break into the time bubble they then carry on where they left off. It is not ideal but it is better than the events at the beginning of IHW. I don't see how any of this is a problem with time magic per se. At most it's a problem with Fiona's character writing being bent in the service of that plot. Note that the italic gets the causality wrong. Time magic isn't being used to explain Fiona's mysterious presence in Val Royeaux, her mysterious presence is being used to introduce the time magic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2018 19:30:37 GMT
Time magic isn't being used to explain Fiona's mysterious presence in Val Royeaux, her mysterious presence is being used to introduce the time magic. Fiona's presence in Val Royeaux only really became mysterious because she had no recollection of it when we got to Redcliffe. Time magic was used to explain her amnesia and decision to sign up with Alexius after inviting the Inquisitor to visit. Mind you, it would seem as though she was stalking the Inquisitor. How did she know we were travelling to Val Royeaux? It would seem she must have had spies in the Inquisition herself. As you say, Fiona's story was manipulated to service the time magic plot which then led to more problems with the use of time magic in the setting rather than less. Essentially, though, that part of the plot wasn't necessary. As I outline above, Alexius could simply turn up at Redcliffe after she returned from Val Royeaux and have persuaded her to sign up with him. After all, she had seen what went down with Lucius and the Templars and may have feared that an all out assault on Redcliffe Castle would shortly follow. No need for convoluted time magic plot to explain her change of heart at all. Anyway, now that there is no Breach I had been confident that would be the last we had seen of time travel magic. However, it is true that they used a form of time manipulation in the Western Approach which set the scene for the same sort of use of magic in Jaws of Hakkon, so I hope that time travel isn't going to feature again anytime soon.
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Post by inquisitor007 on Jan 25, 2018 20:04:25 GMT
I prefer IHW because it creates this 'empire strikes back' vibe where all of a sudden everybody you love is dead or dying. After this, you know that if you don't stop the Elder One, then the world is utterly screwed. I think it raises the stakes and gives Corypheus more gravitas as the main villain. And it's also a great intro for Dorian, yes at the expense of Cole, but I also like how Cole is introduced at the gate of Haven later.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 25, 2018 20:31:00 GMT
Time magic isn't being used to explain Fiona's mysterious presence in Val Royeaux, her mysterious presence is being used to introduce the time magic. Fiona's presence in Val Royeaux only really became mysterious because she had no recollection of it when we got to Redcliffe. Time magic was used to explain her amnesia and decision to sign up with Alexius after inviting the Inquisitor to visit. Mind you, it would seem as though she was stalking the Inquisitor. How did she know we were travelling to Val Royeaux? It would seem she must have had spies in the Inquisition herself. As you say, Fiona's story was manipulated to service the time magic plot which then led to more problems with the use of time magic in the setting rather than less. Essentially, though, that part of the plot wasn't necessary. As I outline above, Alexius could simply turn up at Redcliffe after she returned from Val Royeaux and have persuaded her to sign up with him. After all, she had seen what went down with Lucius and the Templars and may have feared that an all out assault on Redcliffe Castle would shortly follow. No need for convoluted time magic plot to explain her change of heart at all. Anyway, now that there is no Breach I had been confident that would be the last we had seen of time travel magic. However, it is true that they used a form of time manipulation in the Western Approach which set the scene for the same sort of use of magic in Jaws of Hakkon, so I hope that time travel isn't going to feature again anytime soon. (I should have been more specific back there - the mystery of Fiona's presence was there to set up the time magic. It's just a regular meeting until it turns out that it didn't actually happen.) Talking about whether time travel was"necessary" is just confused. Time travel wasn't introduced because it was necessary, or helpful, or solved a plot proble. It was introduced because they thought it would be fun. (Didn't find it fun? Well, you've got CotJ.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 25, 2018 21:05:02 GMT
I found the quest fun but with a few tweaks (such as saying it was Fade travel and not time travel) it would have been just as enjoyable. The main enjoyment for me was getting Dorian earlier and spending time with him, which wasn't dependent on time travel. Time travel is really only fun if you don't think about all the paradoxes it creates. It also broke with all the previous established lore about the limits of magic. I get that was because the Breach allowed magic that wouldn't normally be possible but that would mean that back in the good old days before the Veil, time magic should have been possible then too. I just think it seems too overpowered but that seems the direction that the writers are taking now both in the games and in the books/comics.
One of the attractions of the setting for me was that there were limits to magic so people didn't just have a convenient magic device that allowed them to do things no one else could do. There have been items that were going to be used to turn everyone into darkspawn, items that can cure the Taint simply by wearing them, a machine powered by blood that was going to control the minds of everyone in the world and now an amulet that lets you travel in time. Not to mention an magic ball that gets fused to your hand and allows you to open and close the Veil, plus walk bodily in the Fade with all your companions.
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