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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 16:43:00 GMT
Patrick Weekes, Karin Weekes and David Gaider mentioned this at Havencon: linkSo basically the people who keep saying that BioWare would have been better without EA are wrong, as they just wouldn't exist at all.
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Post by LogicGunn on Apr 2, 2018 17:04:01 GMT
That's not a huge surprise. Someone at EA obviously recognised the potential in Bioware games. What is very interesting are the other things they said about EA:
*Their chief concern is money, obviously, but they rarely push for anything specific or tells Bioware what not to do
*When Bioware wants to do something “risky” (let’s say, Krem), the type of response they typically get is just “do you think you can do it right?”
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 2, 2018 17:05:17 GMT
That's not a huge surprise. Someone at EA obviously recognised the potential in Bioware games. What is very interesting are the other things they said about EA: *Their chief concern is money, obviously, but they rarely push for anything specific or tells Bioware what not to do*When Bioware wants to do something “risky” (let’s say, Krem), the type of response they typically get is just “do you think you can do it right?” That's... comforting, but we'll see if the same policy stands if Anthem doesn't bring in the coin like it was supposed to.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 2, 2018 17:09:58 GMT
Huh, I thought EA acquired them earlier. I didn't know Bioware had already began production on DA2 and that it was during that time that they basically went bankrupt. It would seem that I have for years been misblaming EA for its rushed development.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2018 19:09:28 GMT
Huh, I thought EA acquired them earlier. I didn't know Bioware had already began production on DA2 and that it was during that time that they basically went bankrupt. It would seem that I have for years been misblaming EA for its rushed development. They did. EA Acquired Bioware in 2007. DAO wasn't even released until 2009.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2018 19:11:15 GMT
Patrick Weekes, Karin Weekes and David Gaider mentioned this at Havencon: linkSo basically the people who keep saying that BioWare would have been better without EA are wrong, as they just wouldn't exist at all. Drinking the blood of a unicorn will keep you alive even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something so pure that from the moment the blood touches your lips, you will have a half-life. A cursed life.
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 2, 2018 19:21:03 GMT
Huh, I thought EA acquired them earlier. I didn't know Bioware had already began production on DA2 and that it was during that time that they basically went bankrupt. It would seem that I have for years been misblaming EA for its rushed development. The phrasing of the original post (paraphrasing of notes at a panel) is ambiguous. They say DA2 was rushed. Then they say BW would have gone under if not for EA. That could mean a lot of things but I think in this instance it means DAO and ME were expensive, if successful and with out EA they would not have continued. Not that DA2 bankrupted them and EA saved them because the timeline does not add up. EA owned BW before DA2 edit: so the takeaway is that EA may have contributed to DA2 being like it was, but BW needed EA or it would have not made post 2007 games (DAO, DA2, SWTOR, ME2, ME3, DAI, MEA).
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 19:31:45 GMT
Patrick Weekes, Karin Weekes and David Gaider mentioned this at Havencon: linkSo basically the people who keep saying that BioWare would have been better without EA are wrong, as they just wouldn't exist at all. Drinking the blood of a unicorn will keep you alive even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something so pure that from the moment the blood touches your lips, you will have a half-life. A cursed life.Yeah.... I actually like BioWare's games and like to still play them and get more of them, and also like alot of people not losing their jobs so.... I think this is a load of rubbish specially when you have the option of not playing their games, or following their news if it bothers you so much.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 19:32:48 GMT
This is good to know. If EA saved Bioware then they're not that bad.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2018 19:35:55 GMT
Drinking the blood of a unicorn will keep you alive even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something so pure that from the moment the blood touches your lips, you will have a half-life. A cursed life. Yeah.... I actually like BioWare's games and like to still play them and get more of them, and also like alot of people not losing their jobs so.... I think this is a load of rubbish specially when you have the option of not playing their games, or following their news if it bothers you so much.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 2, 2018 19:36:28 GMT
Huh, I thought EA acquired them earlier. I didn't know Bioware had already began production on DA2 and that it was during that time that they basically went bankrupt. It would seem that I have for years been misblaming EA for its rushed development. They did. EA Acquired Bioware in 2007. DAO wasn't even released until 2009. Well, EA actually acquired Bioware earlier than I previously thought. I thought it had happened after DAO's publication, not before.
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 19:38:12 GMT
Yeah.... I actually like BioWare's games and like to still play them and get more of them, and also like alot of people not losing their jobs so.... I think this is a load of rubbish specially when you have the option of not playing their games, or following their news if it bothers you so much. Basically you suggested it would be better if BioWare went under instead of being bought by EA, meaning people would lose their jobs and alot of people wouldn't get the games they love. That sounds pretty childish.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2018 19:40:57 GMT
Basically you suggested it would be better if BioWare went under instead of being bought by EA, meaning people would lose their jobs and alot of people wouldn't get the games they love. That sounds pretty childish. I did no such thing. I suggested that EA has had a far more corrupting influence on Bioware than people are willing to admit. The only childish thing about my comment was that it was a quite from a children's book. I daresay I've been playing and enjoying Bioware games a lot longer than you have, and it breaks my heart to see their quality plummet so.
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 19:45:19 GMT
Basically you suggested it would be better if BioWare went under instead of being bought by EA, meaning people would lose their jobs and alot of people wouldn't get the games they love. That sounds pretty childish. I did no such thing. I suggested that EA has had a far more corrupting influence on Bioware than people are willing to admit. The only childish thing about my comment was that it was a quite from a children's book. I daresay I've been playing and enjoying Bioware games a lot longer than you have, and it breaks my heart to see their quality plummet so. And there you go with the "I've been playing longer so I'm a better fan". So what? I like the product they put out and you don't. And the dev's say EA don't interfere but you won't believe them either. You might want to read your comment again and what it actually insinuates, specially in relation to my OP. Might want to edit it to make it more clear. Your origianl "intent" would still go against what the dev's actually say (and they aren't the first to say it) but there you go.
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 2, 2018 19:46:37 GMT
This is good to know. If EA saved Bioware then they're not that bad. Yeah it is heartening to know EA seems supportive of BW and in particular their writers. But, the phrasing that when BW went to EA about characters like Krem and EA’s response was concern that they should “do it right” is kind of troubling because we are assuming they mean represent a ftm person in a “good” way when they could be more concerned with them being represented in a way that is safe to the “majority” of gamers and not in presenting LGBTQ people in ways that are satisfying to LGBTQ people. And after MEA and the backlash BW received I would still be skepticle that what EA thinks is the right way to represent LGBTQ people is really about LGBTQ representation for the sake of telling interesting, realistic, human, affective stories and not because EA has done the blood calculus and determined the formulaic right way to do it to appease lgbtq gamers while catering to non lgbtq gamers. But I do think this is fairly good news. Just good news that should be tempered by what happened in MEA.
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Post by warden on Apr 2, 2018 19:47:34 GMT
Well, not only cynical but included cheap demagogy, it's kinda disappointing.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2018 19:52:21 GMT
I did no such thing. I suggested that EA has had a far more corrupting influence on Bioware than people are willing to admit. The only childish thing about my comment was that it was a quite from a children's book. I daresay I've been playing and enjoying Bioware games a lot longer than you have, and it breaks my heart to see their quality plummet so. And there you go with the "I've been playing longer so I'm a better fan". So what? I like the product they put and you don't. And the dev's say EA don't interfere but you won't believe them either. You might want to read your comment again and what it actually insinuates, specially in relation to my OP. Might want to edit it to make it more clear. Your origianl "intent" would still go against what the dev's actually say (and they aren't the first to say it) but there you go. Are you actually reading the words I'm typing, or just making up my responses instead? Because if it's the latter, I could just stop and let you carry on this argument alone. It would be more productive. I did NOT say "I'm a better fan" I'm responding to YOU claiming I 1) Don't like Bioware games and 2) want to see them go out of business. Neither is true., except in your own mind. You like the product they put out? Great! I've seen a huge decline in the last few years. I think they're but a shadow of what they used to be, which coincidentally, seems to line up with them getting their money from EA. YOU may want to read responses more carefully before flying off the handle. My comments stay. But I'm leaving.
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 19:52:37 GMT
This is good to know. If EA saved Bioware then they're not that bad. Yeah it is heartening to know EA seems supportive of BW and in particular their writers. But, the phrasing that when BW went to EA about characters like Krem and EA’s response was concern that they should “do it right” is kind of troubling because we are assuming they mean represent a ftm person in a “good” way when they could be more concerned with them being represented in a way that is safe to the “majority” of gamers and not in presenting LGBTQ people in ways that are satisfying to LGBTQ people. And after MEA and the backlash BW received I would still be skepticle that what EA thinks is the right way to represent LGBTQ people is really about LGBTQ representation for the sake of telling interesting, realistic, human, affective stories and not because EA has done the blood calculus and determined the formulaic right way to do it to appease lgbtq gamers while catering to non lgbtq gamers. But I do think this is fairly good news. Just good news that should be tempered by what happened in MEA. I wouldn't be so sure, EA do seem quite commited to making games for a diverse community, specially LGBT. They let the Sims 4 make a patch that was done really well, that was given to the community for free, that let you make basically any type of Sim you can think of including trans sims. It would actually have taken alot of work and required alot going forwqard to support (it allows you to put hair, makeup, clothes on any sim regardless of gender as well as other things). I assume they meant to actually make sure it was done well. Maybe I'm giving EA too much leeway here, but this is an area I think they tend to be ahead of the rest of their competition (unfortunately most of their competition doesn't really do much in this area, so it's a pretty low branch).
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 2, 2018 20:02:43 GMT
Yeah it is heartening to know EA seems supportive of BW and in particular their writers. But, the phrasing that when BW went to EA about characters like Krem and EA’s response was concern that they should “do it right” is kind of troubling because we are assuming they mean represent a ftm person in a “good” way when they could be more concerned with them being represented in a way that is safe to the “majority” of gamers and not in presenting LGBTQ people in ways that are satisfying to LGBTQ people. And after MEA and the backlash BW received I would still be skepticle that what EA thinks is the right way to represent LGBTQ people is really about LGBTQ representation for the sake of telling interesting, realistic, human, affective stories and not because EA has done the blood calculus and determined the formulaic right way to do it to appease lgbtq gamers while catering to non lgbtq gamers. But I do think this is fairly good news. Just good news that should be tempered by what happened in MEA. I wouldn't be so sure, EA do seem quite commited to making games for a diverse community, specially LGBT. They let the Sims 4 make a patch that was done really well, that was given to the community for free, that let you make basically any type of Sim you can think of including trans sims. It would actually have taken alot of work and required alot going forwqard to support (it allows you to put hair, makeup, clothes on any sim regardless of gender as well as other things). I assume they meant to actually make sure it was done well. Maybe I'm giving EA too much leeway here, but this is an area I think they tend to be ahead of the rest of their competition (unfortunately most of their competition doesn't really do much in this area, so it's a pretty low branch). True. EA seems more supportive on this issue than other AAA game publishers. But. The phrasing of this particular example in BW’s case is too vague to be positive about, in lieu of BW’s most recent project. Also, the sims has a decades old history of LGB and a bit T representation. So is EA really supporting the broader topic of LGBTQ representation in video games with its support of the sims or are they merely supporting that feature of the sims because the sims has been making money off of relatively stellar lgbtq content for years? Again, after MEA I have fears, i’m A little less trusting. But out in general I think the summary of the panel in the OP does allay my fears a bit for DA but not all of BW
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Apr 2, 2018 20:10:13 GMT
Wait, I don't get how they were so close to bankruptcy after churning out a really good game that sold beyond their expectations. (Dragon Age Origins)
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 20:11:40 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure, EA do seem quite commited to making games for a diverse community, specially LGBT. They let the Sims 4 make a patch that was done really well, that was given to the community for free, that let you make basically any type of Sim you can think of including trans sims. It would actually have taken alot of work and required alot going forwqard to support (it allows you to put hair, makeup, clothes on any sim regardless of gender as well as other things). I assume they meant to actually make sure it was done well. Maybe I'm giving EA too much leeway here, but this is an area I think they tend to be ahead of the rest of their competition (unfortunately most of their competition doesn't really do much in this area, so it's a pretty low branch). True. EA seems more supportive on this issue than other AAA game publishers. But. The phrasing of this particular example in BW’s case is too vague to be positive about, in lieu of BW’s most recent project. Also, the sims has a decades old history of LGB and a bit T representation. So is EA really supporting the broader topic of LGBTQ representation in video games with its support of the sims or are they merely supporting that feature of the sims because the sims has been making money off of relatively stellar lgbtq content for years? Again, after MEA I have fears, i’m A little less trusting. But out in general I think the summary of the panel in the OP does allay my fears a bit for DA but not all of BW EA has had the Sims since the beginning so it's hard to know which came first - but I agree MEA wasn't great at it, but then if I'm honest I don't think the romances in general were that much better (it really needed more time in the cooking pot so to speak even if I liked the game) and the Trans one was awkward as hell. I don't think in general the Mass Effect franchise has ever been as good at being as diverse as Dragon Age either, it's something they really need to work on. I have faith in Dragon Age but not much in the Mass Effect franchise for it either. So basically we need the DA team influencing everyone Mark Darrah's already started with being Executive Producer for Anthem
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Post by rras1994 on Apr 2, 2018 20:15:14 GMT
Wait, I don't get how they were so close to bankruptcy after churning out a really good game that sold beyond their expectations. (Dragon Age Origins) DAO took 6 years to make and was considered vapourware at quite a few points - EA aquired them in 2007 (I am a bit confused about the DA2 thing, but I'm wondering if they meant they had to try and get their investment back on DA quickly?) 2 years before DAO came out. EA would have coughed up the funding
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 2, 2018 20:22:52 GMT
True. EA seems more supportive on this issue than other AAA game publishers. But. The phrasing of this particular example in BW’s case is too vague to be positive about, in lieu of BW’s most recent project. Also, the sims has a decades old history of LGB and a bit T representation. So is EA really supporting the broader topic of LGBTQ representation in video games with its support of the sims or are they merely supporting that feature of the sims because the sims has been making money off of relatively stellar lgbtq content for years? Again, after MEA I have fears, i’m A little less trusting. But out in general I think the summary of the panel in the OP does allay my fears a bit for DA but not all of BW EA has had the Sims since the beginning so it's hard to know which came first - but I agree MEA wasn't great at it, but then if I'm honest I don't think the romances in general were that much better (it really needed more time in the cooking pot so to speak even if I liked the game) and the Trans one was awkward as hell. I don't think in general the Mass Effect franchise has ever been as good at being as diverse as Dragon Age either, it's something they really need to work on. I have faith in Dragon Age but not much in the Mass Effect franchise for it either. So basically we need the DA team influencing everyone Mark Darrah's already started with being Executive Producer for Anthem Well the op post does say that romances are expensive, and so with that MEA makes some sense as Cora and some of the other romances seem to have been invested with more money. Yet, at the release of MEA you had the dismal state of the Gil romance and the m/m version of Reyes. So you can clearly tell resources were prioritized. Hence my distrust as the panel made clear romances cost a whole lot. Animations cost a whole lot. So that kind of means Cora’s sex scene cost a whole lot and might of come at the expense of say Gil’s non face scanned basically CC face. So, again, I can’t be too reassured by that panel as Anthem stands in the way of DA4 as much as the ghost of MEA.
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 2, 2018 20:31:17 GMT
EA has had the Sims since the beginning so it's hard to know which came first - but I agree MEA wasn't great at it, but then if I'm honest I don't think the romances in general were that much better (it really needed more time in the cooking pot so to speak even if I liked the game) and the Trans one was awkward as hell. I don't think in general the Mass Effect franchise has ever been as good at being as diverse as Dragon Age either, it's something they really need to work on. I have faith in Dragon Age but not much in the Mass Effect franchise for it either. So basically we need the DA team influencing everyone Mark Darrah's already started with being Executive Producer for Anthem Well the op post does say that romances are expensive, and so with that MEA makes some sense as Cora and some of the other romances seem to have been invested with more money. Yet, at the release of MEA you had the dismal state of the Gil romance and the m/m version of Reyes. So you can clearly tell resources were prioritized. Hence my distrust as the panel made clear romances cost a whole lot. Animations cost a whole lot. So that kind of means Cora’s sex scene cost a whole lot and might of come at the expense of say Gil’s non face scanned basically CC face. So, again, I can’t be too reassured by that panel as Anthem stands in the way of DA4 as much as the ghost of MEA. And it's not just what the romance entailed, it was other things as well, like there being no m/m squadmate, no m/m alien, less choices for m/m players, the sole gay man having no importance in the story, and as you said Gil's character creator face and Reyes' inferior animations for m/m, and then on top of that the low quality of Gil's romance and fade-to-black '' sex '' scene. So it was just a eff you to gay men all around, before Jaal was '' fixed. '' And it wasn't exactly a peach for f/f either. So yeah, even if DA is made by a different team, I'm going into DA4 with low expectations until I am proven otherwise (ESPECIALLY if Anthem flops like a dead fish). I mean, at least when it comes to romances and LGBT content.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2018 21:03:07 GMT
This is good to know. If EA saved Bioware then they're not that bad. Yeah it is heartening to know EA seems supportive of BW and in particular their writers. But, the phrasing that when BW went to EA about characters like Krem and EA’s response was concern that they should “do it right” is kind of troubling because we are assuming they mean represent a ftm person in a “good” way when they could be more concerned with them being represented in a way that is safe to the “majority” of gamers and not in presenting LGBTQ people in ways that are satisfying to LGBTQ people. I think you've got the wrong idea. The cynical man in me thinks this allows for plausible deniability, that is if they don't actually give an opinion they are not responsible for what happens. So if they said "yeah, make Krem gay I love it" and then there's a huge backlash suddenly they're partially responsible. OTOH if they say "do you think you can do it right?" which is what most people would call "a fantastic dodge", they've had no influence on the developmental process and are therefore in no way responsible.
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