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Post by wavebend on Apr 13, 2018 2:10:09 GMT
Just a small discussion/thoughts about what I think are the two biggest flaws in DA:I's combat : teamplay (refined scope) and AI (both player+enemy). Sure, in the next game (DA4?) you could keep introducing new classes or improve/remake the abilities into something else, create new sub-specs, etc. But all of that is the ice on top of the cake, the cake itself needs to be good on its own. And I'd boil that down mostly to teamplay + AI.
Player side Power fantasies are needed. You want to feel extremely powerful in the right scenarios. Godlike. However, the strength that Dragon Age has vs other generic games is obviously its party-based system (4 players). But what I mean by "godlike" moments is that they should be a result of using the party system correctly. I could put it this way: the sum of strengths of everyone in the party should be godlike, but single entities are worth nearly nothing. Which means stuff like Knight Enchanter in DA:I or AW in DA:O who don't need their party and can solo everything on their own? - epic failures of the party system. When design errors like this happen, DA becomes just like any generic third person action RPG. It loses what makes it stand out combat-wise. So, in other words, design should instead mostly focus on the synergy between each class/spec and how they complement each other. For instance, let's say you're playing as Cassandra (the female warrior) in a hypothetical DA game (not DA:I, because the warrior class sucks in that game), she's a very powerful warrior, and in some scenarios, she can shoulder-bash enemies to the ground, send them flying into ragdolls crashing into walls. Her sword attacks have weight behind them, each attack staggers the enemy, etc. Playing as her feels amazing combat-wise - you feel like she's a goddess warrior who could rule the f'ckin world... until she encounters a situation where she can't unleash all her power that easily - maybe she has to face another enemy warrior who protects himself with a body shield. In this hypothetical scenario, as Cassandra you should NOT be able to even land a hit on this shield guy: you try to kite him, combat roll behind him, doesn't matter. This tank guy always faces you with his shield no matter what. You're desperate and need help, such as another party member to distract him - maybe a mage in your party who freezes him, or a rogue who puts him to sleep, etc. If you are alone as Cassandra, you should NOT be able to win this fight in a reasonable time frame, because that's beyond her scope of what she's capable of (yet in the right scenarios, she feels like a goddess! if the tank guy is put to sleep, she can become a goddess of war again, etc) DA:I already does this, but I feel the scope could be much tighter than it already is. The second thing that you want besides scope is being able to feel like godlike given the right circumstances - A strong enemy with a counter paired with the right party composition can quickly make you go from feeling powerless to feeling like godlike, and that's when it becomes fun. Third thing is for all that to happen, the AI for the team needs to be better : you rarely see Dorian/Solas freezing a soldier for you so you can combo a shieldbash with Cassandra, having partymembers "set up" the way for you. Without good AI, you'd constantly have to switch between party members because of a tighter scope of what each member can do, so the AI has to do a lot more of that for you, creating the right setup for you to feel "godlike"
Enemy side Same thing for the enemy side, it's already done to some level in DA:I (e.g. you'll see a mage buffing soldiers with barrier, or granting them knockdown immunity iirc? I don't recall the specifics) But I don't only mean the AI has to be better on the team-synergy front like in the paragraph above. I mean individually as well, each enemy should feel powerful on its own (which they don't in DA:I). Lots of small problems in DA:I right now are due to this. E.G. I think the reason you can't walk very fast in combat in DA:I is because (well in part) of the enemy not being powerful enough to punish you for sprinting/letting your guard go but the enemy AI itself is not good enough. If you could sprint, you could too easily dodge telegraphed attacks / projectiles, or get behind the enemy and backstab him as a rogue, or get away from dangerous situations, etc. I'm sure there are other reasons too though. But the point is enemies should be way more reactive in general, and more powerful aswell. If I'm trying to close in with an enemy mage as a tank, that enemy mage should immediately dodge / teleport whenever I get close, independently of which state they're in. And by more powerful, it means some degree of teamplay is needed to get this enemy down. Let's take for example that enemy mage again, if I'm closeing in with a tank, maybe that enemy mage should stonefist me / forcefield me back so I can't get close, or teleport away; some element here at play prevents me from easily unleashing my power onto him unless something is tactically done, maybe the mage AI on my team has to debuff him, or protect me from his stonefists, or something like that.
But yeah, I could expand on those thoughts, but TL;DR basically the point is you want to feel godlike, except only in the right circumstances. You have to earn that right, and you do it through tactical teamplay. Because it's "not always" and rather a reward than something you take for granted, the scope of each character has to be tighter (no stuff like the Knight Enchanter can-do-everything from DA:I), and tighter scope = need for better team AI. As for the enemies, they should be much smarter as well, more reactive (you have to force an opening through teamplay) and more powerful, each having its own brain (they don't in DA:I). The beauty of combat is when it's gods vs gods, not when it's gods vs peasants, and I feel like if it's done right you don't even need bulletsponges like they have in DA:I and any of these weird coping systems such as not being able to sprint
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Post by wavebend on Apr 13, 2018 2:12:19 GMT
Sorry if my thoughts aren't too clear I kind of wrote that down pretty quickly
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Post by coldsteelblue on Apr 13, 2018 9:07:12 GMT
Agree with this, one of my main gripes about DA:I is just how bad the AI is. I'd like a return of being able to script party actions as well in the sub-menu, just like both previous games as that can add to what you mentioned, but we also need the party to react to certain status elements too. In DA:I if an enemy is put to sleep, or panicked as an example, your party will just gawk at them, not knowing what to do.
So in short, an overhaul of the AI system in my view, would be a good thing.
Just my opinion.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 14, 2018 20:50:59 GMT
I disagree. Personally I value player choice and the freedom to choose different archtypes much more than a puritanical take on party-based gameplay and how each role should be completely separate and highly specific. Not to mention that from the point of view of in-universe realism, such artificial separation makes no sense, as it is a very "gamey" concept. Quoted for truth. OP: "Which means stuff like Knight Enchanter in DA:I or AW in DA:O who don't need their party and can solo everything on their own? - epic failures of the party system." That's not a failure. That's an excellent accommodation of player agency. "TL;DR basically the point is you want to feel godlike, except only in the right circumstances. You have to earn that right, and you do it through tactical teamplay." I mean, that's fine if that's what floats your boats, but I couldn't care less about tactical teamplay in an SP game. Now if you are talking about MP co-op or PvP, that's a different story. Actually, that's not quite right. I do care about team construction, as an extension of optimizing SP gameplay, which amounts to, let's face it, combat. But team construction is, to me, just another dimension to my own character creation, much like weapon upgrades, skill loadouts, and accessories. I would be perfectly happy to play the same game solo, if the game allowed me to deploy tactical roles with, I dunno, summoning or artificing. An illusion that tanks is just as good as a tank character, AFAIC. And you don't have to take my word for it. This is exactly how games like The Witcher and Deus Ex work.
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Post by wavebend on Apr 14, 2018 22:05:53 GMT
OP: "Which means stuff like Knight Enchanter in DA:I or AW in DA:O who don't need their party and can solo everything on their own? - epic failures of the party system." That's not a failure. That's an excellent accommodation of player agency. It is a failure of the party system, because you don't need a party at all. But I agree partly with you, to give the player the freedom of choice to play this way - I think it's acceptable that this option is deliberately included in the game (a completely overpowered class) however enemy balance and the rest of the design should not account for that class's (such as AW) existence simply because a one-man show drastically reduces the possible depth of the combat system (enemy AI does not need to be good, tactics are not needed, etc). However if you want to elevate the beauty of combat (because as I say, beautiful combat is gods vs gods, not gods vs peasants) then that's not where you want your focus to be. I mean, that's fine if that's what floats your boats, but I couldn't care less about tactical teamplay in an SP game. Now if you are talking about MP co-op or PvP, that's a different story. Actually, that's not quite right. I do care about team construction, as an extension of optimizing SP gameplay, which amounts to, let's face it, combat. But team construction is, to me, just another dimension to my own character creation, much like weapon upgrades, skill loadouts, and accessories. I would be perfectly happy to play the same game solo, if the game allowed me to deploy tactical roles with, I dunno, summoning or artificing. An illusion that tanks is just as good as a tank character, AFAIC. You don't care about tactical teamplay but surely you care about reactive AI and flashy, beautiful combat from both sides of the battlefield (enemy and player)? Look, you don't need tactical teamplay - that can be automatized by the game, you don't need to micromanage anything at all, everything is played out for you, so you can play your game solo without having to worry a single bit about what your team is doing. And you don't have to take my word for it. This is exactly how games like The Witcher and Deus Ex work. Sure, but DA can be better than those games because it doesn't have to strictly be a one-man show, it has the strength of being party based. It doesn't have to emulate what already exists.
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Post by wavebend on Apr 14, 2018 22:15:15 GMT
I disagree. Personally I value player choice and the freedom to choose different archtypes much more than a puritanical take on party-based gameplay and how each role should be completely separate and highly specific. Not to mention that from the point of view of in-universe realism, such artificial separation makes no sense, as it is a very "gamey" concept. The separation/scope can be quite organic actually, say you have a mage vs a tank. The mage can simply teleport away everytime the tank gets close. It makes sense lore wise too and forces a need for teamplay. However a mage could be vulnerable to a rogue, because the rogue can backstab him from stealth which the mage can't sense. At the end of the day this is all theory, if you want stupid AI / a stupid mage who lets himself get killed in close melee by a tank, then so be it. I think psychologically I'd be more satisfied by having won by tactics (eg having to use a rogue to take down a smarter mage, stupid example but you get my point). You could always include the option of a overpowered tank that could outrun how fast the mage can teleport, just for the sake of player agency, or reduce the AI's intelligence via a difficulty setting or something like that. This fight for instance, the enemy is incredibly reactive and powerful, so you feel more satisfied when you're able to take him down than if you were to simply one-shot him from the start. Of course some bloodborne players are able to nearly one-shot this guy, but that's not where the game is balanced around. That's just my view.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 15, 2018 8:51:48 GMT
No class should ever require the help of another class to fully use its own strengths. That kind of interdependency means that those classes are, harshly put, just two incapacitated people leaning on each other for support so they can walk. Enhancing each other's attacks and defenses is fine, but requiring help to be fully effective is not. To put it into numbers: I'm fine with 1 + 1 = 3, but not with 0.5 + 0.5 = 2.
An ineffective combat style dies on the battlefield, because no one will be left to teach it.
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Post by cribbian on Apr 17, 2018 11:17:20 GMT
I would like to have a tactical camera that doesn't need to use the door to enter a room.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Apr 17, 2018 14:56:35 GMT
Dump hack and slash and I’d be very happy over the next DA game when it comes to combat, DA2 and inquisition are chores partly because of that. Bring back auto attack!
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Post by ergates on Apr 19, 2018 8:52:09 GMT
I'll be happy enough if there are some combat options. I don't really feel that DA:I has any to speak of, unless you count 'select all Party members/ hit autoattack key/send all in/occasionally spam a button or two' as a 'combat option'. The only time in the whole game where I felt that some kind of tactical combat was required was during the dragon fights and very early in the game when tackling the tougher rifts in the Hinterlands - and all that came mainly down to positioning.... except the positioning system in DA:I is rather clunky and frustrating to use.
I'm not going to be greedy and ask for actual customisable squad tactics. I suppose those days are gone for good, and we have to get used to the increasing simplification of games in order to cater for the 'CoD casual' demographic but I'd be happy enough with the return of actual healing classes, and an end to laborious Diablo II-style potion spamming.
I guess my disappointment with DA:I has left me a bit jaded, and it probably shows. Bioware would need to do something very, very, very special with this new title if they were to rekindle my love of the franchise.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 21, 2018 17:36:06 GMT
Finally, there's the point which was raised before by papacharlie: In a SP game I don't really see the need for strict balance, if the protagonist is stronger than other companions, that's fine. (and actually makes a lot of sense in certain stories) CAN you ran the entire game, solo? Possibly, though I'm not sure why you would want to unless for a sense of extra challenge. I'm sure it would be much more difficult, and you won't have access to the story telling aspects that having your companions with you provides. DAI comes close to a solution for this. You can change the degree to which companions contribute to combat, only attacking if attacked, for example. What it really needs for solo combat, but otherwise normal interaction/banter/cutscenes with the party, is a fully passive mode, where the companion doesn't do anything, including healing or support, and just runs around with you as a spectator during combat. What the DAI mechanism needs to really work for this mixed solo/party mode, is for passive settings to extend partial or total immunity to damage to the companions, so you don't have to worry about them sucking down healing resources. An intermediate mode would be for companions to engage in combat and draw aggro, but are themselves invulnerable and also do little or no damage to enemies. This is how cinematic games with partners, like Uncharted, handle companions.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 21, 2018 21:14:19 GMT
An intermediate mode would be for companions to engage in combat and draw aggro, but are themselves invulnerable and also do little or no damage to enemies. This is how cinematic games with partners, like Uncharted, handle companions. Couldn't that be gamed to have the ultimate tank, though? Granted, that's not efficient tanking, but if your invulnerable follower is drawing some aggro, that's fewer enemies for you to worry about while you're picking off some other dude. (I haven't played Uncharted, so I don't have experience with that sort of follower gameplay.)
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 22, 2018 17:40:08 GMT
An intermediate mode would be for companions to engage in combat and draw aggro, but are themselves invulnerable and also do little or no damage to enemies. This is how cinematic games with partners, like Uncharted, handle companions. Couldn't that be gamed to have the ultimate tank, though? Granted, that's not efficient tanking, but if your invulnerable follower is drawing some aggro, that's fewer enemies for you to worry about while you're picking off some other dude. (I haven't played Uncharted, so I don't have experience with that sort of follower gameplay.) Yes, that's a definite risk. It might be mitigated by some additional coding, like companions can only draw aggro for a short amount of time, then all aggro is reset. What that would look like is that an enemy might be temporarily distracted by a companion, but then break off when they realize the real threat is the PC. If threat calculation takes DPS into account, this will happen automatically, since the tanky companion won't be doing any damage anyway.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 22, 2018 21:57:43 GMT
If threat calculation takes DPS into account Hopefully in that situation they will have other threat-generating abilities so that tanking in normal party setup doesn't suffer, as tanks usually have lower damage output. Ultimately, I think it can be difficult designing the game (and combat mechanics) around different styles of gameplay. Currently, they only have to worry about the primary mode: a four-person party. Sure, people do solo runs, but they are a minority and I doubt are accounted for in any way. Adding different styles, such as your suggestion, makes things more complicated as far as balancing is concerned.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 24, 2018 8:29:43 GMT
Dump hack and slash and I’d be very happy over the next DA game when it comes to combat, DA2 and inquisition are chores partly because of that. Bring back auto attack! Um, not to be a killjoy but hack and slash is becoming very popular in action oriented games, and it would make sense if the combat system focuses on fast paced action gameplay. If they bring back that horrendous combat design from Origins it's asking for the game to be bad.
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Post by mmoblitz on Apr 25, 2018 2:05:05 GMT
Dump hack and slash and I’d be very happy over the next DA game when it comes to combat, DA2 and inquisition are chores partly because of that. Bring back auto attack! Um, not to be a killjoy but hack and slash is becoming very popular in action oriented games, and it would make sense if the combat system focuses on fast paced action gameplay. If they bring back that horrendous combat design from Origins it's asking for the game to be bad. That depends on what you want the focus of the game to be. If story, characters, and dialog is the main focus of the game then combat only has to be decent and that was the first two DA games for me. DAI changed focused a bit and imo suffered from it. I really disliked the combat and was thankful I was able to solo the game without having to bring along those mostly forgettable companions. Give me back tactics and the skills trees from DAO/DA2. Focus on story, characters, and dialog and I would be happy. I have zero interest in yet another hack and slash game. They are a dime a dozen.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 2, 2018 8:44:30 GMT
Um, not to be a killjoy but hack and slash is becoming very popular in action oriented games, and it would make sense if the combat system focuses on fast paced action gameplay. If they bring back that horrendous combat design from Origins it's asking for the game to be bad. That depends on what you want the focus of the game to be. If story, characters, and dialog is the main focus of the game then combat only has to be decent and that was the first two DA games for me. DAI changed focused a bit and imo suffered from it. I really disliked the combat and was thankful I was able to solo the game without having to bring along those mostly forgettable companions. Give me back tactics and the skills trees from DAO/DA2. Focus on story, characters, and dialog and I would be happy. I have zero interest in yet another hack and slash game. They are a dime a dozen. Witcher proved otherwise it can have a great combat, story, character development, and world design on an RPG game and it made GOTY. (It was well deserved). And I think the only reason BioWare doesn't want to put the effort into making an balanced game is because they're lazy, lack of ambition, and no competitive drive. Look at DA2 for example and how horribly bland and boring that is, and it's supposed to be better than Origins not the other way around. BioWare really need to get their shit together.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jun 2, 2018 21:29:40 GMT
No lie I want it to be like MEA combat, without the profile limitations and an extended focus on melee (to replace gunplay).
DAI was a step in the right direction. Now just go all the way.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 2, 2018 21:54:51 GMT
Dump hack and slash and I’d be very happy over the next DA game when it comes to combat, DA2 and inquisition are chores partly because of that. Bring back auto attack! Um, not to be a killjoy but hack and slash is becoming very popular in action oriented games, and it would make sense if the combat system focuses on fast paced action gameplay. If they bring back that horrendous combat design from Origins it's asking for the game to be bad. Origins had the best combat in the series, though Inquisition's tactical camera also worked well. Action combat relying on real-time inputs is incompatible both with full-party control and with any sort of coherent RPG ruleset.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 3, 2018 3:16:51 GMT
Um, not to be a killjoy but hack and slash is becoming very popular in action oriented games, and it would make sense if the combat system focuses on fast paced action gameplay. If they bring back that horrendous combat design from Origins it's asking for the game to be bad. Origins had the best combat in the series, though Inquisition's tactical camera also worked well. Action combat relying on real-time inputs is incompatible both with full-party control and with any sort of coherent RPG ruleset. Dragon Age combat system especially Origins sucked, and the party system is sometimes a nuisance. Everything is forced on me to travel with companions instead of choosing to go alone, or have someone with me without being penalized.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 3, 2018 9:53:59 GMT
Dragon Age combat system especially Origins sucked, and the party system is sometimes a nuisance. Everything is forced on me to travel with companions instead of choosing to go alone, or have someone with me without being penalized. It's a party-based game. You play the whole party. I have no objection to single-character RPGs (BioWare has never really made one). I do have an objection to action combat, however, as that undermines the character's reality. If the character's stats say he has some skill level at something, he shouldn't be better or worse at it based on MY skill at it. I don't exist within the game world. It makes no sense at all for my abilities to be relevant.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 3, 2018 23:46:52 GMT
Dragon Age combat system especially Origins sucked, and the party system is sometimes a nuisance. Everything is forced on me to travel with companions instead of choosing to go alone, or have someone with me without being penalized. It's a party-based game. You play the whole party. I have no objection to single-character RPGs (BioWare has never really made one). I do have an objection to action combat, however, as that undermines the character's reality. If the character's stats say he has some skill level at something, he shouldn't be better or worse at it based on MY skill at it. I don't exist within the game world. It makes no sense at all for my abilities to be relevant. That's your preference. And I still think they should put action combat in DA4.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 4, 2018 10:23:34 GMT
That's your preference. And I still think they should put action combat in DA4. As long as it's optional (as it is in ME, for example). Mandatory action combat would render the game incompatible with roleplaying, and thus not an RPG.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 4, 2018 12:43:48 GMT
Mandatory action combat would render the game incompatible with roleplaying, and thus not an RPG. For your idea of an RPG. Not mine. And before this thread devolves into arguments about what is and what is not an RPG, there is no definitive definition. It means different things to different players. Deep tactical combat is not pivotal to my RPG experience, but being able to determine my character's background and other things is, which is why I prefer DAI over all three games: the Inquisitor is the most blank slate protagonist of the three and that's how I want it.
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Post by river82 on Jun 5, 2018 4:11:02 GMT
The "RPGness" of a game is a spectrum, because it is impossible to produce a pure RPG with current hardware. So games have always incorporated elements of an RPG and because some games incorporate different elements without ever being a pure RPG, people have different ideas of what an RPG is.
While action combat does dilute how RPG a game is, a game can make that up in other areas.
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