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Post by Iddy on Apr 13, 2018 19:49:11 GMT
Perhaps not the way we are told by the Chantry, but there must be one.
In the Fade, thought shapes reality. There is no reason why people's collective belief can't have created a spirit who identifies as the Maker.
In occultism, this is what would be called an egregore.
Maybe the Fade has even reflected and created Heaven as humans picture it, as well as the elven afterlife and so on.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2018 20:41:51 GMT
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Technically what you say may be true but I don't think that is what the writers have in mind.
There is also the theological argument that there has to be a first cause that started creation. The Maker fills that role and since, according to the Chant of Light, the Fade came first and spirits were the first children of the Maker, it follows that the Maker must be a spirit too as there was no material world. However, the earth was created out of the "living flesh" of the Fade so the two are connected. It is noteworthy that lyrium is found in both the Fade and the earth and previously the Chantry taught it was the essence of all creation and a bridge between worlds. Then the writers introduced Titans into the mix which totally messed with that idea.
Even the Dalish acknowledge there was an earth in existence that Elgar'nan and Mythal interacted with to create, as Solas would put it, the World of the Elves. In fact Merrill was quite clear that they regard the Fade as the realm of the spirits, their home, and that is why mortals should not intrude into it. Strangely enough this is quite close the Chantry idea that the Maker made the Fade for the spirits and the earth for mortals, so spirits have no right to try and rule over the material world any more than people should try and rule the Fade.
The Rivaini have a pantheistic religion, so to them the world they inhabit and the Maker are one and the same.
According to David Gaider the Neromenanians (allegedly the first humans in Thedas) originally believed in the Maker or a Creator god of some form that was essentially the same but when this god failed to help their ancestors, they started to give their worship to those beings that did. This seems to tie in with the Chant of Light teaching on the matter but then that would essentially confirm what they teach and yet we were told the writers never would do this one way or the other.
However, your idea would fit with the Neromenians having "thought" a god into existence and when they "forgot him" his power waned until Andraste came along and revived him. The being that she allegedly spoke with seems to have different identities according to which part of the Chant you read. In the oldest bit, the lore of which may actually pre-date Andraste and she drew upon, the entity is known as the Wellspring, also co-incidentally or not what the area with the Titan is called in the Descent. So I wonder if the other parts of the Chant where he is referred to as the "Maker" rather than the "Wellspring" came from Andraste at all.
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Apr 13, 2018 20:43:09 GMT
The Avvar "Gods" are regularly (re)birthed through their shared belief in them, so it stands to reason that a Spirit could have come to embody the Maker from the shared faith of every Andrastian in Thedas. Unfortunately, because the core belief of Andrastianism is that "The Maker has left us", even if Spirit did come to embody the Maker, that illusive trait would be projected onto the Spirit and therefore no-one would actually know of it's existence. Which puts us right back at square one, being unable to prove the "Maker" actually exists. (Maybe when they thought him into existence, they should have remembered to put a bell on him or something?)  |
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2018 20:50:18 GMT
It is rather helpful to the "Maker" that his Chantry followers believe he is not going to help them because they offended him (so that gives him a let out for inaction) but still pray to him none the less in the hope that he might relent in the end (which ensures his continued existence).
The Avvar must find this notion amusing since they know what their gods are, they make prayers and offerings to them and they get assistance as a result, which seems a much more useful reciprocal arrangement.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Apr 14, 2018 20:02:14 GMT
I am the Maker.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 15, 2018 14:51:32 GMT
It's funny because the way the Chantry describe the Maker in the Chant of Light match Solas,they got most things right if they euqate the Maker to Solas.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2018 15:22:02 GMT
I'll grant you that once Solas said he created the Veil to imprison the false gods, the similarities between his history and that given in the Chant of Light seemed very apparent (Sebastian had already pointed them out in DA2). Still if Solas is the "Maker" of the current world then it is really just a play on words for the writers to declare they will never prove the existence of the Maker one way or the other. Whilst the vague First Cause who does nothing other than observe fits the Chantry dogma, they clearly have in mind a Supreme Being who interacted with Andraste and then was "offended" by what happened to her. So if Solas is this being (which does fit) then the "Maker" of Andraste's story has been identified and effectively "proven".
I'm hoping this is not the case. In a way I preferred it when every race had their own version of the truth but it could never conclusively be proven. Whilst it seems only fair dues if the Chantry's Maker is shown to be as ordinary and "mortal" as the elven gods, in a way it seems just too convenient if Solas = the Maker; Andraste = past vessel of Mythal. Then the "Stone" of the dwarves is shown to be the titans (which it already has in a way).
I also find the idea given in the preface to the Canticle of Shartan that he may even have not been real at all but just a symbol a bit far fetched. Yes, after the first Shartan was killed, other Shartan's probably arose among the slaves to continue the rebellion (I am Spartacus) but the Dalish would hardly have made up the oral history that linked their rebel leader with Andraste if that was not the case, even before they fell out with Orlais. The Canticle was definitely based off Dalish oral history of that time, so if they were not given their land out of gratitude to Shartan, why mention him? Also what was the shade we meet in DAO?
Then of course there is the further suggestion that parts of the Canticle are based on an older elven folktale about a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". Clearly the writers are trying to equate Shartan's struggle with the earlier one of Solas here but I find this one even harder to swallow because what "tyrants" was the trickster warrior fighting against? According to all other Dalish lore the elves went from living in the peace of Arlathan, to being slaves of Tevinter having been attacked without reason, to their rebellion under Shartan. There just isn't any room for another rebel against tyrants in there. If it is a residual memory of Solas' rebellion against the Evanuris then how come they don't remember the rest of it, when they even have the big clue the rebellion was led by a "trickster"? So I think the writers of that particular text were trying to be a little too cute.
Which could be the case with everything else that seems to connect. May be the writers are just throwing out the odd red herring to keep us guessing and producing theories that they will later disprove.
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