yarus
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Post by yarus on Feb 4, 2022 10:16:01 GMT
I would be shocked if Harrowmont is still alive by 9:52. If memory serves he passed away in the non-canon Origins endings, which opens a new canon of worms about the political state of Orzammar by 9:52. (The "best case" scenario for the dwarves relies on Bhelen + a very, very specific sequences of choices for Inquisition, even then Vivienne's and Varric's comments in Trespasser make it clear Orzammar's fate is dire.) I don't recall getting any comments about Orzammar from these two. Was this when they are chatting whilst in your party? I rarely got the two of them together for any length of time even in DAI, let alone in Trespasser, since my PC is usually either an archer or a mage, so has no real need for either of them but certainly not both at the same time. I do hope we get some more information about the state of the dwarves in DA4, although I suspect it won't be Orzammar that we will be focused on but Kal-Sharok, which is fine by me because I really want to see and interact with them. There are loads of questions I have ranging from the real reason the dwarven seat of power was shifted to Orzammar to how they succeeded in surviving, unknown to the southern dwarves, for that length of time. I also suspect they know more about what actually happened during the elven empire, as a result of which they definitely have no love for the elves or want to see them returned to power. So, even if Orzammar's fate is dire, that may not be the case for Kal-Sharok. It was a banter between the two during or after the mission where you destroy the Qunari's mining operations in Trespasser. Quoting word for word below: 124gcode541.tumblr.com/post/139998561911/vivienne-look-at-all-of-this-what-aVivienne: Look at all of this! What a pity. Varric: I know you like books, Iron Lady, but I never thought I'd hear you lament the loss of elven literature. Vivienne: Actually, I meant the elves. To build an entire empire on the foundation of magic... Varric: There's probably worse things to base your civilization around. Coin, the lyrium trade, tradition... Vivienne: The elves trusted completely that the world as it was would never change. This rubble is the legacy of that trust. Vivienne: If the Qunari can mine lyrium, others can learn the secret. Orzammar's time is ever more swiftly coming to a close. Varric: I know. I don't even want to think about everything it'll break up on the surface when it collapses. In all possible worldlines, regardless of player choice, Orzammar's competitive advantage is that it controls the lyrium trade. The Qunari mining operation is proof that even that is being outdone by the Qunari. Given enough time, the humans will be able to do that too----and the dwarves will have lost their own economic advantage over the surfacers. What happens to a rigid caste based society with a myriad of social and political issues when their own, consistent, economic lifeline is threatened? Nothing good.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 4, 2022 12:32:12 GMT
In all possible worldlines, regardless of player choice, Orzammar's competitive advantage is that it controls the lyrium trade. The Qunari mining operation is proof that even that is being outdone by the Qunari. Given enough time, the humans will be able to do that too----and the dwarves will have lost their own economic advantage over the surfacers. Thank you for the information. However, I would point out that if it were possible for humans to mine lyrium, do you not think they would have done so already? Back before the Blights, wouldn't it have made sense economically for Tevinter to mine their own lyrium rather than rely on the dwarves? Presumably that is what the dwarves feared in shifting their seat of power as far away from Minrathous as possible. As it turned out, there was an extreme drawback to mining lyrium, its toxicity if exposed to it for any length of time. Other races attempting to mine slowly succumb to deafness, memory loss and nausea, eventually being driven mad. Dwarves are resistant to these effects, although not entirely immune (see the dwarf merchant in Orzammar in DAO). Anyway, I would assume that it was more costly in slaves to attempt to mine the stuff independently than it was to simply buy it from the dwarves. Clearly, Vivienne had not appreciated this. As a surface dwarf, may be Varric didn't really understand the reason for the dwarf monopoly either because I believe that surface dwarves lose that immunity over time along with their "Stone-sense". Incidentally, I suspect that back during the elven empire the Evanuris enslaved the dwarves specifically so they could mine lyrium for them because they had encountered the same problem when trying to use elven slaves. Whilst the Qunari were mining lyrium they had only been doing this for a short time so who knows the long term cost in personnel if they continued to do this? The Qunari do not indulge in trade with other nations, so any lyrium mining would be for themselves alone and would not affect Orzammar since they had never been reliant on Qunari trade. Ordinarily the Qun didn't need lyrium, this was a specific project aimed at boosting the power of their mages so they could use them to strengthen the Veil. Which to be honest was the most interesting aspect of the Qunari plot; that they had worked out that the Veil was an artificial construct and strengthening it would reduce the flow of magic in the world, severely undermining their chief enemy, Tevinter, but also the other nations who had only defeated them previously with the aid of magic.
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mattjamho
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mattjamho on Feb 7, 2022 19:21:40 GMT
Hmm... now that you mention it. While there isn't much of a good in-universe reason for not to be around for the meets and votes during Asunder, the meta-reason's probably that she did not exist yet as a character, for the Conclave, that doesn't work. Question is if she sent an underling. Asunder is in fact easier to explain. The meeting at the White Spire was for First Enchanters only. Vivienne was Court Enchanter but not a First Enchanter, so wouldn't have been invited. Lambert was very insistent about limiting the attendees. Then when the survivors fled and the Circles disbanded, Vivienne would have stayed loyal to the Chantry and the Court and was protected by Bastien from any local Templar reprisals. She was definitely around as a character in Masked Empire because at one point Celene makes a mental note to get Madame de Fer to check up on the links between Gaspard and the Montsimmard Circle. Of course, everything starts to fall apart shortly after that and the civil war begins. That actually occurred before the meeting of the First Enchanters, so Vivienne might have been further prevented from travelling by the civil unrest or at least thought it expedient to stay away from the capital. As for the Conclave the only adequate explanation I can come up with was that Vivienne was prevented from travelling by the civil war. So whilst she would have been granted safe passage as a mage, she was wary of entering the war zone in Orlais because of her political connections and didn't fancy slumming it and making a detour through Ferelden. It is also possible that she got wind of the fact that the Divine was planning on setting up the Inquisition to enforce any decision arrived at. In other words, Divine Justinia had probably already made up her mind what result she wanted to achieve and the Conclave was just to give the appearance of listening to both sides of the argument. So maybe Vivienne thought it expedient not to get involved so she could maintain neutrality and then just side with the victors. I might be remembering this wrong, but wasn’t there banter in game that said she was on business for the Empress? That’s why she wasn’t at the conclave? It would match up with what we see in her character trailer, she’s at an Orlesian estate being hounded by a noble when the Breach erupts.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 8, 2022 9:00:35 GMT
I might be remembering this wrong, but wasn’t there banter in game that said she was on business for the Empress? You are probably right. The problem with information being confined to banter between specific individuals is that you may never have the right combination to trigger it. This can even be true of certain banter with the PC because it will only trigger if you have a certain level of approval or disapproval. Solas was a classic example of this, where you actually get far more revealing conversation if he hates your guts than if he approves of your actions. So just because I didn't get a conversation with Vivienne which explains her absence at the Conclave doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there. However, I would still question what business for the Empress was so important that she couldn't attend the Conclave? After all, the Empress took an active interest in what was going on in the Circles in Masked Empire, probably getting much of her information from Viviennne, so as official Court Enchanter you would think Celene would want Vivienne at the Conclave to represent her in the decision making. Unless, of course, they didn't want to make it obvious, so used a trusted underling for the purpose, which would indeed explain Vivienne's absence whilst this was excused by the official line that she was elsewhere "on business for the Empress".
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