gangrelbeckett
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Apr 14, 2018 20:40:03 GMT
Just curious which and how many characters have died off-screen between Dragon Age and DA 4? This is my assumption of characters who bites the dust. Wynne dies in the novel Asunder. Just like the First Enchanter Edmonde from the Dawn of the Seeker Movie. Cassandras former lover Regalyan D´Marcall is killed at the conclave. Also his friend Alte? I find its very strange that we know all the fate from the book characters expect Adrian. Did she also get killed at the conclave? Its also possible that First Enchanter Irving and Knight Commander Greagoir are dead. Seriously what happened to them? Both are important characters in Origins. But in Inquisition nobody mentions them. Samson regardless what you choose have only a few years. I think he is dead when DA 4 starts. Maybe he is already dead in Trespasser. Aside from Samson every Red Templar like Paxley or Carroll (if you don´t slain him in the A Puppet Master quest) dies or will be killed. And last but not least characters who pass away even if you didn´t do the associated quest or didn´t play the respective DLC. Ameridan, Allure, Avernus, Baron Arlange, Otto Alrik, Templar Bran, Cahir, Cristof, Severin Corwood, Commander Duhaime, Daniel, Templar Drass, Demon Sophia Dryden, Eadric, Elric Maraigne, Evets, Elva, Fake Weylon, Gainley, Dougal Gavorn, Gerav, Ginnis, Hadriana, Jarvy, Johane Harimann, Janeka, Jansen, Jeven, Jovi Merice, Larius, Senior Enchanter Leorah, Lucanus, Macrinus, Maliphant, Maddox, Nelaros, Nola, Nuncio Caldera Lanos, Lilley, Mekel, Orsen Haver, Fell Orden, Ser Otto, Paedan, Pol, Prosper de Montfort, Harwen Raleight, Rhatigan Shaevra, Senestra, Senior Enchanter Sweeney, Ser Auguste, Sister Costeau, Taliesen, Marethari Talas, Tamlen, Taven, Tennant, Senior Enchanter Torrin, Tug, Velasco, Veld, Viddasala and every character from the Human Nobel Origin aside from Fergus Cousland and the Cousland Cousland if he/she is choosen. Edit: Also every character from Ostagar expect The Warden, Alistair, Dog and Loghain. I would be very impressed if there is anyone who know them all without searching their names in the Dragon Age Wiki. I think that is almost impossible. Even for Bioware staff. Some of them are one note enemies without much characterization.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 14, 2018 21:55:56 GMT
The Dog might have died by the time of DA4, as by Trespasser, at least 14 years have passed since Origins.
We don't know how long dogs (even magically-bred ones) live in Thedas, but in our world, it's very rare for dogs (especially large ones) to reach beyond their mid-teens. Even if dog is still knocking about, he'd likely be "retired" by this point from combat and maybe put out to stud (which actually was the canonical reason given for his absence in Awakening).
The other issue is that every version of the Dog (except Cousland's), has the darkspawn corruption in their system. This might significantly reduce his lifespan further, depending on how long it takes for the corruption to spread.
The flower we retrieved for the Kennel Master in the Korcari Wilds wasn't a cure by any means, it only helped the Dog survive the blood until he could recover on his own. The Ash Warrior Commander relates the same point when discussing their own dogs getting infected;
"Darkspawn blood is poisonous, but not always fatal. Those who survive grow immune to it's effects. The Wardens say that the tainted blood drives even the survivors mad eventually... but not today.".
So the Dog might have passed away off-screen, either from old age or from the advancing corruption.
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gangrelbeckett
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Apr 14, 2018 22:24:21 GMT
The Dog might have died by the time of DA4, as by Trespasser, at least 14 years have passed since Origins. So the Dog might have passed away off-screen, either from old age or from the advancing corruption. Good Point. I assume this include also the DA 2 Mabari? And an other group of people would be the ghouls. I think all of them have died. Maybe Seranni could live but i doubt it. According to Wiki the eligible characters are Tamlen, Sophia Dryden, Hespith, Ruck, Adria, Utha, Seranni, Larius, Rhatigan and Gerav.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 14, 2018 23:24:54 GMT
The Dog might have died by the time of DA4, as by Trespasser, at least 14 years have passed since Origins. So the Dog might have passed away off-screen, either from old age or from the advancing corruption. Good Point. I assume this include also the DA 2 Mabari? And an other group of people would be the ghouls. I think all of them have died. Maybe Seranni could live but i doubt it. According to Wiki the eligible characters are Tamlen, Sophia Dryden, Hespith, Ruck, Adria, Utha, Seranni, Larius, Rhatigan and Gerav. I'd assume Hawke's mabari might have passed away, as we don't know how old it was at the start of DA2. Bethany's comment about how Carver was "always jealous" that Dog imprinted on Hawke over him, might suggest that it was living with them for a while before the game started. I'm not sure about ghouls, because the lore is a little contradictory about them. We've been told that Darkspawn don't need to eat or drink (even though they often do), because the corruption itself is capable of sustaining them indefinitely. However it's been said that the same corruption will kill any ghoul within a few months of their transformation. But that doesn't seem to always be the case... at least not when it comes to Wardens, who are technically a type of ghoul themselves. Avernus was able to use blood magic to not only slow down the corruption in his body to a snail's pace, but seemingly exploit it's properties to sustain and prolong his life for over two centuries. Utha similarly was able to survive in a ghoulified state for over 20 years by the time of Awakening. Of course, these were unique situations, as Avernus was using a combination of his own research and blood magic to prolong his life, while Utha was a Warden prematurely ghoulified in the novel "The Calling" and may have been further experimented on by the Architect. Larius might be another example, but the uncertainty of when Legacy canonically happened, makes it a little iffy of how long he was a ghoul for. Based on the information we're given in the second WOT book, Janeka decided to free Corypheus several months after Larius' Calling, but it's unclear how long she spent looking for Malcolm Hawke's heirs. So by the time Hawke finally was lured to the prison, Larius could have been a ghoul for several months or several years? So the TL;DR version regarding ghouls... even the devs seem a little unclear on their lifespans, it's pretty much depending on the writer.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 15, 2018 10:53:34 GMT
Its also possible that First Enchanter Irving and Knight Commander Greagoir are dead. Seriously what happened to them? Both are important characters in Origins. But in Inquisition nobody mentions them. I don't think it was necessary to mention them, as that would have added unnecessary complication to the mage story as it existed in DAI. Keep in mind that, while there are a lot of references to the previous games, they design them so a new player won't be too lost; the default canon has everyone dead for this reason: it's the simplest thing to do. The rebellion extended beyond the Circle in Ferelden. It's also highly possible that they are both still there. Some mages will have wanted to remain, and I think a templar like Greagoir would have seen it as his duty to remain and guard them. (Keep in mind that there are war table missions of exactly this happening in other Circles.) There are both mages and templars who will not want to get involved with the rebellion. Some of those might not feel they have anywhere else to go, so they remain and continue trying to live as they have been. It's extremely important to remember that not all mages and all templars are the same, with the same views, and the same outlook on their lives (and for the templars, their jobs) and the Circle as a whole. And of course they were both older, so they could have just died naturally. Greagoir might have even retired before the rebellion happened. and every character from the Human Nobel Origin aside from Fergus Cousland and the Cousland Cousland if he/she is choosen. Edit: Also every character from Ostagar expect The Warden, Alistair, Dog and Loghain. This is kind of a given considering the way the Cousland origin plays out. Also, don't forget that Cousland Warden could be dead if they didn't do the Dark Ritual. Alistair and Loghain could be dead, depending on DAO choices, or the DAI fade choice. Hawke could also be dead, depending on the DAI Fade choice. Ser Cauthrien could also still be alive if you used a persuasion check before the Landsmeet. The other issue is that every version of the Dog (except Cousland's), has the darkspawn corruption in their system. This might significantly reduce his lifespan further, depending on how long it takes for the corruption to spread. This is where hand-waving has to happen. We kill a lot of darkspawn in DAO. A lot. Humanoids fight with weapons, but dogs primarily fight with their teeth. While you might be able to say that the humanoids avoided all the blood flying around in battle, that seems highly unlikely with Dog. There had to have been some taint infection going around, regardless of which Dog you have. This actually might have been addressed with the dog Hafter in The Calling novel, since he was the companion of a warden and would have had the same risks, but I don't recall what was said about it.
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Post by blighted on Apr 15, 2018 12:52:17 GMT
(Nice username gangrelbeckett!)
There's also Maric who died in the comics, which I don't believe was ever mentioned in Inquisition.
I imagine over time, even the Cousland mabari would have ingested enough darkspawn taint to be effected. I don't think it's likely, but perhaps the only way the warden's mabari might still be alive is if he underwent a joining ritual off screen, like Kell's dog Hafter.
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gangrelbeckett
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Apr 15, 2018 13:22:36 GMT
Of course, these were unique situations, as Avernus was using a combination of his own research and blood magic to prolong his life, while Utha was a Warden prematurely ghoulified in the novel "The Calling" and may have been further experimented on by the Architect. Larius might be another example, but the uncertainty of when Legacy canonically happened, makes it a little iffy of how long he was a ghoul for. Avernus mentions in the DLC and in DA 2 that he had little time to live regardless that he cheated death before. I think at time of 9:44 Dragon Age he is dead. Larius or Janeka it doesn´t matter who were the host for Corypheus. In order to reborn the Grey Warden have to die. Therefore is less interessing for me how many years have passed to this moment. Its also very hard to define. Like you said the Legacy DLC can be played at any time after prologue. I disagree. Both First Enchanter Irving and Knight Commander Greagoir are important figures the Dragon Age lore. Its only natural to ask what happened to them. Its possible that Greagoir might have even retired but i doubt it. As respect Templar Commander he would atleast consider to be part of the conclave. Irving is even more strange. The last time we heard from him was in Asunder. Where is he? And yes Irving can die but in the default canon he lives. I get your point but its feels strange that almost living novel character is mentioned or in the game but not Irving and Greagoir. I don´t have expected mayor roles for them but one sentence about their fate maybe from Cullen who had a former connection with them. I have to mention the Human Noble Origin if i want to be detailed about this list. The DAI Fad choice is addition but the Death of the Warden, Alistair and Loghain also Ser Cauthrien didn´t count. They didn´t die offscreen. Thanks I really love Vampire the Masquerade as tabletop rpg and of course Bloodlines. One of best games that have ever been made. And also thanks for contribute Maric to the conversation.
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cuthbertbeckett
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 6, 2021 19:09:37 GMT
I forget that i already made this kind of thread. So Threadnecro because of the current 9:52 Dragon talk.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2021 19:31:53 GMT
I find its very strange that we know all the fate from the book characters expect Adrian. She was always wanting to be in the thick of things and saw herself as Fiona's deputy, so I imagine she was the one who went to the Conclave on her behalf just to make sure the Divine didn't do anything she didn't approve of. So I'm assuming she's dead. Its also possible that First Enchanter Irving and Knight Commander Greagoir are dead. I thought Irving at died at the White Spire but I've just checked and he was still alive after it but asked Rhys to take his mother's place as leader of the Aquitarians, so probably wanting to take a less active role. He complained of his age in DAO, although he was a contemporary of Wynne so not that old. So I imagine Irving and Gregoire probably both died at the Conclave as they seem likely to have been the type who would have wanted to attend. Very few people we met would have known them personally, so why mention them? The only one who might was Cullen but may be he didn't know and in any case had lost touch with them after he left Kinloch Hold.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2021 19:51:11 GMT
On a related topic, I wonder just how many surviving Templars and mages there would have been after the defeat of Corypheus? Many mages would have been killed in the fighting and in Annulments after the uprising. Many loyalist mages would have been killed at the Conclave. It always seemed a bit fishy to me that Vivienne didn't attend; you'd think she would have had a vested interest in being there. Some mages seemed to have left the ranks of the rebels before Redcliffe so they presumably survived whether you side with the mages or not but if you didn't then the number of mages in the south would have been seriously depleted. Ditto the Templars if you did side with the mages. Not only would many of them perished at Haven but ultimately would have succumbed to red lyrium poisoning. Meanwhile those not with them would have likely suffered withdrawal symptoms from not being to obtain the ordinary stuff.
Still it is easier to replace Templars by the usual means of noble families dumping their surplus on the organisation and of course we may have disbanded it. However, mages are always going to be needed, regardless of what some people might maintain, but less easy to replace. There is also the problem of who filled the vacuum for identifying and training up youngsters once the Circles were gone or fully restored. So I would imagine mages in the south would be spread rather wide and in short supply for some time.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 6, 2021 19:54:41 GMT
She was always wanting to be in the thick of things and saw herself as Fiona's deputy, so I imagine she was the one who went to the Conclave on her behalf just to make sure the Divine didn't do anything she didn't approve of. So I'm assuming she's dead. She wasn´t that popular as character so i agree with you that it would make sense to kill her off by the Conclave explosion. Irving would make a good candidate for someone who went to the Conclave. Greagoir like i mention in the other thread could also lived his last years as simple brothers.
Regardless of his actual fate he think he is dead at 9:52.
What about Samson and all the other Red Templars do you think they are dead? Well i think so. And about the normal templars? I can´t answer you this with an exact number but i could imagine that all of minor mage / templar characters the player can optional kill over the series are among the loses. Like Alain, Godwin, Petra, Keili or Kinnon.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2021 20:02:12 GMT
What about Samson and all the other Red Templars do you think they are dead? Well i think so. And about the normal templars? See my answer above about normal templars. I'm pretty sure Samson would be dead.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 6, 2021 20:16:05 GMT
See my answer above about normal templars. I'm pretty sure Samson would be dead. I agree that Samson should be dead regardless what the Inquisitor choice regarding him is
but i don´t think that all of the known templars are dead.
These templars or former templars could be alive if they haven´t been killed by players choice of course: Alistair, Belinda Darrow, Evangeline de Brassard, Delrin Barris, Carver, Cullen, Hugh, Keran, Rylen (not DAA Rylien) and Ser.
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Post by Solas on Dec 6, 2021 21:36:48 GMT
the entire main cast of beloved favs will die in a tragic rocks fell accident between 9:44 and 9:52
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2021 21:42:24 GMT
i don´t think that all of the known templars are dead.
These templars or former templars could be alive if they haven´t been killed by players choice of course: Alistair, Belinda Darrow, Evangeline de Brassard, Delrin Barris, Carver, Cullen, Hugh, Keran, Rylen (not DAA Rylien) and Ser I was thinking more of Templars who didn't join up with the Inquisition, which several of these you mention did. Carver would also be okay because of Hawke's (and Varric's) contacts who could obtain lyrium for him. Since many of them would have had families to go to, the noble ones at least would probably be okay when it came to sourcing lyrium. If word got out that Cullen had managed to kick lyrium without going mad, that might have encouraged more to come forward. Cullen starts a home for retired Templars so I suppose there must be a few who survived and didn't join up with the Inquisition. Still, the outlook would be better for the Templars if you side with them. Otherwise an awful lot would have been tainted with red lyrium and thus had no hope.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 6, 2021 22:16:50 GMT
Still, the outlook would be better for the Templars if you side with them. Otherwise an awful lot would have been tainted with red lyrium and thus had no hope. I think that most of the remaining Kirkwall Templar besides maybe Keran & Hugh plus optional Carver could have joined Samson Red Templars. So Agatha, Otto Alrik (its possible that he could survive DA 2 if the players won´t do Anders 2nd act quest), Karras, Margitte, Mettin, Moira, Paxley (already confirmed), Ser Roderick and Roderick could be Red Templars. It also won´t be shocked if Irminric Eremon have joined him
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Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 7, 2021 4:38:09 GMT
On a related topic, I wonder just how many surviving Templars and mages there would have been after the defeat of Corypheus? Many mages would have been killed in the fighting and in Annulments after the uprising. Many loyalist mages would have been killed at the Conclave. It always seemed a bit fishy to me that Vivienne didn't attend; you'd think she would have had a vested interest in being there. Some mages seemed to have left the ranks of the rebels before Redcliffe so they presumably survived whether you side with the mages or not but if you didn't then the number of mages in the south would have been seriously depleted. Ditto the Templars if you did side with the mages. Not only would many of them perished at Haven but ultimately would have succumbed to red lyrium poisoning. Meanwhile those not with them would have likely suffered withdrawal symptoms from not being to obtain the ordinary stuff. Still it is easier to replace Templars by the usual means of noble families dumping their surplus on the organisation and of course we may have disbanded it. However, mages are always going to be needed, regardless of what some people might maintain, but less easy to replace. There is also the problem of who filled the vacuum for identifying and training up youngsters once the Circles were gone or fully restored. So I would imagine mages in the south would be spread rather wide and in short supply for some time. Hmm... now that you mention it. While there isn't much of a good in-universe reason for not to be around for the meets and votes during Asunder, the meta-reason's probably that she did not exist yet as a character, for the Conclave, that doesn't work. Question is if she sent an underling.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 7, 2021 9:02:35 GMT
Hmm... now that you mention it. While there isn't much of a good in-universe reason for not to be around for the meets and votes during Asunder, the meta-reason's probably that she did not exist yet as a character, for the Conclave, that doesn't work. Question is if she sent an underling. Asunder is in fact easier to explain. The meeting at the White Spire was for First Enchanters only. Vivienne was Court Enchanter but not a First Enchanter, so wouldn't have been invited. Lambert was very insistent about limiting the attendees. Then when the survivors fled and the Circles disbanded, Vivienne would have stayed loyal to the Chantry and the Court and was protected by Bastien from any local Templar reprisals. She was definitely around as a character in Masked Empire because at one point Celene makes a mental note to get Madame de Fer to check up on the links between Gaspard and the Montsimmard Circle. Of course, everything starts to fall apart shortly after that and the civil war begins. That actually occurred before the meeting of the First Enchanters, so Vivienne might have been further prevented from travelling by the civil unrest or at least thought it expedient to stay away from the capital. As for the Conclave the only adequate explanation I can come up with was that Vivienne was prevented from travelling by the civil war. So whilst she would have been granted safe passage as a mage, she was wary of entering the war zone in Orlais because of her political connections and didn't fancy slumming it and making a detour through Ferelden. It is also possible that she got wind of the fact that the Divine was planning on setting up the Inquisition to enforce any decision arrived at. In other words, Divine Justinia had probably already made up her mind what result she wanted to achieve and the Conclave was just to give the appearance of listening to both sides of the argument. So maybe Vivienne thought it expedient not to get involved so she could maintain neutrality and then just side with the victors.
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Beerfish
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Little Pumpkin
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 15, 2021 0:50:59 GMT
I've killed Samson and Calpernia thousands of times.....in multiplayer Also now I am triggered by the mention of Asunder. I don't thunk I have ever totally hated the 'heros' or protagonists of a book or liked the 'villains' as much as I did that book. I hate Anders with the heat of 1000 suns....I actually hate Rhys more.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 15, 2021 10:35:02 GMT
Also now I am triggered by the mention of Asunder. I don't thunk I have ever totally hated the 'heros' or protagonists of a book or liked the 'villains' as much as I did that book. I didn't really identify much with any of the "heroes" either but then its main purpose was to explain the time shift with regard to the start of the main rebellion. To be honest I was still disappointed that the events of DA2 were downgraded in that way and still don't understand why it was necessary to move the action on 2 years. Why was Cassandra investigating what happened in Kirkwall 2 years after the event? So someone blows up the Grand Cleric at a time when the Divine was already considering an Exalted March on the city and the Divine/Seekers don't think it worth going in immediately to find out what happened? I could understand moving on the action if the rebellion had been underway for 2 years before the Divine was able to arrange a truce and call the Conclave but in fact it seemed like the war between the mages and Templars had only been going on for a few months before Fiona threw in the towel. I loathed her character. First she causes the rebellion stating that the time was right for it, then she changes her mind in a matter of months saying their cause is hopeless and then surrenders the autonomy of her entire group to a Tevinter Magister, selling out the monarch who had given them refuge. If she was already seeing their cause as hopeless and willing to entertain throwing the mages on the mercy of Tevinter, why travel across the length of Thedas to the Conclave with the entire group when we were told in Asunder that Andoral's Reach was very defensible and it was on the border with Tevinter, so easy enough to cross over if the Conclave didn't go as she hoped? Then again, I never understood why she capitulated so quickly once they were in Redcliffe Castle, which was even more defensible than the ruin up on the borders of Tevinter. They had the backing of the monarch of Ferelden and were in a strategically strong location, so let the Templars come as they were unlikely to have much success in taking Redcliffe Castle and the monarch was well within their rights to attack them as a hostile force within their borders (eh Teagan?) I hoping that plot wise things make more sense in DA4 than they did in DAI and the time skip has logical results.
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Post by cyberpunker on Feb 3, 2022 10:05:04 GMT
Is Arl Eamon still alive?
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 3, 2022 13:18:22 GMT
According to WoT2, when their mother fled Ferelden with her two sons in 8:93, Teagan was 2 years old. Since he was the younger of the two and struck me as considerably younger than Eamon, I think the latter must have been born around 8:85 but certainly by 8:90. So by 8:52 he would be between 62-67 years old. That is not impossibly old, although his previous poisoning may have had a detrimental effect on his long term health. Nevertheless, I would think it likely he could still be in honourable retirement in Denerim, having stepped down as Arl of Redcliffe and passed the responsibility to Teagan before the events of DAI.
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Post by Muninn on Feb 3, 2022 17:01:01 GMT
If I recall correctly, in The Stolen Throne, Eamon is supposed to be 7 years older than Teagan, which means that by 9:52 he is 68 years old.
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Post by yarus on Feb 4, 2022 7:57:29 GMT
Eamon is probably dead. I would be shocked if Harrowmont is still alive by 9:52. If memory serves he passed away in the non-canon Origins endings, which opens a new canon of worms about the political state of Orzammar by 9:52. (The "best case" scenario for the dwarves relies on Bhelen + a very, very specific sequences of choices for Inquisition, even then Vivienne's and Varric's comments in Trespasser make it clear Orzammar's fate is dire.) Irving and Greagoir are very likely long dead, not much surprise there. Anders or Sebastian might be dead/killed, due to the Calling or political unrest in Starkhaven respectively. The Hero of Ferelden's fate largely depends if their quest to stop the Calling was successful. Based on dialogue in Trespasser, I'm assuming their quest was successful?
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 4, 2022 8:40:33 GMT
I would be shocked if Harrowmont is still alive by 9:52. If memory serves he passed away in the non-canon Origins endings, which opens a new canon of worms about the political state of Orzammar by 9:52. (The "best case" scenario for the dwarves relies on Bhelen + a very, very specific sequences of choices for Inquisition, even then Vivienne's and Varric's comments in Trespasser make it clear Orzammar's fate is dire.) I don't recall getting any comments about Orzammar from these two. Was this when they are chatting whilst in your party? I rarely got the two of them together for any length of time even in DAI, let alone in Trespasser, since my PC is usually either an archer or a mage, so has no real need for either of them but certainly not both at the same time. I do hope we get some more information about the state of the dwarves in DA4, although I suspect it won't be Orzammar that we will be focused on but Kal-Sharok, which is fine by me because I really want to see and interact with them. There are loads of questions I have ranging from the real reason the dwarven seat of power was shifted to Orzammar to how they succeeded in surviving, unknown to the southern dwarves, for that length of time. I also suspect they know more about what actually happened during the elven empire, as a result of which they definitely have no love for the elves or want to see them returned to power. So, even if Orzammar's fate is dire, that may not be the case for Kal-Sharok.
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