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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 6, 2018 18:06:31 GMT
willingly serving a darkspawn magister.
To be fair to Fiona she didn't know she would be serving Corypheus when she signed on. I have to admit to wondering how free-willed the mages were by the time they attacked us at Haven. We know that Corypheus could have a strange influence on mages not just Warden mages and besides when Fiona was "cured" of the taint we don't know if it still left some sort of marker that he could hook onto. Anyway, once he arrived on the scene I think the mages discovered what indentured servitude really meant.
That said, it is entirely possible that Fiona's hatred for the opposition made her a willing pawn.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2018 18:08:22 GMT
Not slavery – Alexius wanted to conscript them, for cityzenship. After a period of indentured servitude lasting 10 years. Slavery by any other definition. And yes, Fiona was a slave. But you fail to grasp the magnitude of her hatred for Templars. She hated them more than darkspawn or Tevinters. No, not exactly like that – and even Fione didn't expect that. And is clear, that Alexius trycked her. She was angry at him.
She has every reason to hate the Templars. But she has every reason to hate the slavery too. She was a sextoy – she killed her master.
And again: the Templars refused to help against the demons. They loved their war better, than hated the darkspawn.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 6, 2018 18:10:21 GMT
It is true that neither side has an excuse for their actions. The Templars spinelessly followed Lucius (demon in disguise) even before he started feeding them red lyrium.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 6, 2018 18:48:35 GMT
The mages at least had legitimate reason to fear the rest of Thedas blaming them for the Breach, and we see people doing exactly that.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 6, 2018 21:39:42 GMT
It is true that neither side has an excuse for their actions. The Templars spinelessly followed Lucius (demon in disguise) even before he started feeding them red lyrium. It's not even just Lucius. Lucius may have off kilter and gone off to seek his own promiser brand of glory, but his predecessor was arguably worse. Lord Seeker Lambert was hell-bent on preserving the sanctity of tranquility (i.e. hiding the fact that it can be reversed and that it is not a perfect plan in combatting possession like previously thought) even to the point of ordering the murder of those who know about it, crushing the emerging mage rebellion and planting a hyper conservative Divine on the throne. Edit: Accidently got Lord Seeker Lucius confused with Lord Seeker Lambert. Revised accordingly.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2018 22:41:15 GMT
And the templars refused to help, when demons fell from the sky... they refused their duty: why would the Inquisitor follow them. They were very clear: their personal war more important, than ending the chaos. Frankly more disappointing than them punching a nun. The world is effin' ending, and there is literally no one frightening you into locking yourself into a castle. That castle has to be full of nothing but idiots and cowards to be there instead of having already defected to the Inquisition like tons of folks already have done.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 6, 2018 22:44:21 GMT
And the templars refused to help, when demons fell from the sky... they refused their duty: why would the Inquisitor follow them. They were very clear: their personal war more important, than ending the chaos. Frankly more disappointing than them punching a nun. The world is effin' ending, and there is literally no one frightening you into locking yourself into a castle. That castle has to be full of nothing but idiots and cowards to be there instead of having already defected to the Inquisition like tons of folks already have done. Well, they show pretty clearly they aren't cowards when things go pear-shaped and the Red Templars attack. I guess I don't have much to say about the other accusation, though.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2018 22:45:50 GMT
Well, they show pretty clearly they aren't cowards when things go pear-shaped and the Red Templars attack. I guess I don't have much to say about the other accusation, though. yeah, when it goes pear shaped literally outside their window, they will stand up to defend themselves. Their attempts at survival are really impressive and inspire grand respect.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2018 22:53:11 GMT
And the templars refused to help, when demons fell from the sky... they refused their duty: why would the Inquisitor follow them. They were very clear: their personal war more important, than ending the chaos. Frankly more disappointing than them punching a nun. The world is effin' ending, and there is literally no one frightening you into locking yourself into a castle. That castle has to be full of nothing but idiots and cowards to be there instead of having already defected to the Inquisition like tons of folks already have done. Of course, it is (this is the main reason I call Demonlord Lucius Envy a prick), the Templars didn't have a word against it – I mentioned, but don't forget: I defend a man, who blew up a whole chantry with nuns – true, he didn't punch them. Yes. Seems Barris reluctantly followed that coward prick – but followed. So: he know, that's not right, but he "just followed the order"... This isn't an excuse in my eyes.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 6, 2018 23:05:59 GMT
Well, they show pretty clearly they aren't cowards when things go pear-shaped and the Red Templars attack. I guess I don't have much to say about the other accusation, though. yeah, when it goes pear shaped literally outside their window, they will stand up to defend themselves. Their attempts at survival are really impressive and inspire grand respect. They keep fighting even after that ceases to be a factor. By the time they break down the Envy demon's barrier, the Red Templars inside the castle are dead or fleeing and the Envy demon is hiding. They could leave at that point, but instead they force the demon out of hiding. And while I haven't let Ser Barris's health get low enough to see this myself, he'll apparently participate in this effort even if he's been injured too severely to survive doing so. Actually, for that matter I'm not sure there was anything stopping Ser Barris from leaving before that. There were enough Red Templars to keep launching attacks, but I'd imagined they were coming from deeper inside the castle, because I'd always assumed we'd cleared the outer areas. I don't think Ser Barris had to help the Inquisitor. I think he chose to. And then there's the mission chain Ser Barris participates in after CotJ. He does things in that chain a coward would not have been capable of doing.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2018 23:08:40 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflashThere are the sort of people who step up even when no one has asked them to. (everyone who joined the inquisition, pretty much) and then there are those who don't step up until they are knee deep in it. Ser Barris is that sort of person regardless of his later actions.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2018 23:08:45 GMT
yeah, when it goes pear shaped literally outside their window, they will stand up to defend themselves. Their attempts at survival are really impressive and inspire grand respect. They keep fighting even after that ceases to be a factor. By the time they break down the Envy demon's barrier, the Red Templars inside the castle are dead or fleeing and the Envy demon is hiding. They could leave at that point, but instead they force the demon out of hiding. And while I haven't let Ser Barris's health get low enough to see this myself, he'll apparently participate in this effort even if he's been injured too severely to survive doing so. Actually, for that matter I'm not sure there was anything stopping Ser Barris from leaving before that. There were enough Red Templars to keep launching attacks, but I'd imagined they were coming from deeper inside the castle, because I'd always assumed we'd cleared the outer areas. I don't think Ser Barris had to help the Inquisitor. I think he chose to. And then there's the mission chain Ser Barris participates in after CotJ. He does things in that chain a coward would not have been capable of doing. But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked with the events of Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 6, 2018 23:22:27 GMT
They keep fighting even after that ceases to be a factor. By the time they break down the Envy demon's barrier, the Red Templars inside the castle are dead or fleeing and the Envy demon is hiding. They could leave at that point, but instead they force the demon out of hiding. And while I haven't let Ser Barris's health get low enough to see this myself, he'll apparently participate in this effort even if he's been injured too severely to survive doing so. Actually, for that matter I'm not sure there was anything stopping Ser Barris from leaving before that. There were enough Red Templars to keep launching attacks, but I'd imagined they were coming from deeper inside the castle, because I'd always assumed we'd cleared the outer areas. I don't think Ser Barris had to help the Inquisitor. I think he chose to. And then there's the mission chain Ser Barris participates in after CotJ. He does things in that chain a coward would not have been capable of doing. But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked in Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars. Fair enough. riverdaleswhiteflash There are the sort of people who step up even when no one has asked them to. (everyone who joined the inquisition, pretty much) and then there are those who don't step up until they are knee deep in it. Ser Barris is that sort of person regardless of his later actions. Fair point. Just as long as we remember that not everyone has it in them to step up at all. If nothing else, I think I've demonstrated that Ser Barris isn't a complete coward.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 7, 2018 1:21:05 GMT
Just as long as we remember that not everyone has it in them to step up at all. This is an interesting point. I think it's important to remember the type of person that is attracted to a military or paramilitary environment. Many (not all) of these types are followers, those who thrive under structure, order, discipline, organization. The very purpose of the chain of command is to ensure that people don't step up and go off to do their own thing because they think their idea is better.
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N2
3/26/17: Pathfound something
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sumerian Physics on Jun 7, 2018 2:19:33 GMT
My Dalish mage inquisitor went with her gut on the mage thing not just cuz she's a mage herself and keeping magical people in prison leaves a bad taste in her mouth, but also because why would you resolve a problem with the same mentality that created it? Something had to change and either you make the mages tranquil or release them. And tranquility would be damn near genocidal
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 7, 2018 8:04:18 GMT
My current Rogue Elf goes with the mages. Why? Templars are an example of oppression and the elves have been oppressed for a very long time. Mages are welcome among the elves but nothing like the Templars exists for them. It wouldn't make any sense to side with the Templars.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 7, 2018 9:35:29 GMT
But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked with the events of Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars. Even if you do go for the Templars you only get the sequence of events with Ser Barris if you ally with them. (This may have been a bug but it was never remedied so far as I am aware). Whilst I can justify going to the Templars for help with the Breach, I really cannot justify keeping them going as an independent order if I do. As I have previously said, I do not support the Templar worldview, I simply go to them for reasons of common sense, which includes disbanding an order where the majority of its leaders were corrupt and the rank and file unable to recognise this. So the only time I saw the Ser Baris War Table missions was when I deliberately invented an Inquisitor who was pro-Templar and then disliked him so much I couldn't finish the game with him.
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Post by fylimar on Jun 8, 2018 21:49:23 GMT
They keep fighting even after that ceases to be a factor. By the time they break down the Envy demon's barrier, the Red Templars inside the castle are dead or fleeing and the Envy demon is hiding. They could leave at that point, but instead they force the demon out of hiding. And while I haven't let Ser Barris's health get low enough to see this myself, he'll apparently participate in this effort even if he's been injured too severely to survive doing so. Actually, for that matter I'm not sure there was anything stopping Ser Barris from leaving before that. There were enough Red Templars to keep launching attacks, but I'd imagined they were coming from deeper inside the castle, because I'd always assumed we'd cleared the outer areas. I don't think Ser Barris had to help the Inquisitor. I think he chose to. And then there's the mission chain Ser Barris participates in after CotJ. He does things in that chain a coward would not have been capable of doing. But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked with the events of Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars. Or he could go because of the events in Val ROyeaux - to take a look at what the templars doing and maybe putting a stop to it. Don't forget, your inqui doesn't know, that s/he can't go after the mages later. In my first playthrough I thought, I could both fractions to work with me and I happened to choose to visit Redcliffe first. After the whole Tevinter chaos, I thought it best, to do that quest first and help Dorian stop ALexius. ANd then I was shocked that CotJ was no longer available. I thought, I did something wrong. What I mean is, you as player know, that you can't get both fractions for the inquisition. But if you never visit Redcliffe and go straight to the templar stronghold, because of their lunatic behavior (after Fionas civil invitation, you could think, all is well with the mages, word of Alexius never reaches you in time, if you go directly after the templars), your actions are justified. The mages - cool for the moment, nothing dramatioc happening there. The templars - oh lords, what went wrong there? What did Lucius and his merry men smoke?
You can still conscript the templars afterwards, it's not that much different as if allying the mages (for example you get the same approvals)
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Post by fylimar on Jun 8, 2018 21:55:58 GMT
About the original question: in my firs tplaythrough I did go for the mages and allied them. That is still my favorite outcome of this quest. Fiona might have acted stupidly, but she didn't summon demons or punched old ladies - or forcefeed red lyrium to her fellow mages. I didn't know most of it in my first playthrough of course, but Lucius behavior in Val ROyeux really didn't help building trust. On the other hand: Fiona invited my inqui politely to Redcliffe, so this was a no-brainer for me. As I said in the post before, I thought, I could do the templar quest too, though
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Post by Catilina on Jun 8, 2018 21:58:53 GMT
But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked with the events of Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars. Or he could go because of the events in Val ROyeaux - to take a look at what the templars doing and maybe putting a stop to it. Don't forget, your inqui doesn't know, that s/he can't go after the mages later. In my first playthrough I thought, I could both fractions to work with me and I happened to choose to visit Redcliffe first. After the whole Tevinter chaos, I thought it best, to do that quest first and help Dorian stop ALexius. ANd then I was shocked that CotJ was no longer available. I thought, I did something wrong. What I mean is, you as player know, that you can't get both fractions for the inquisition. But if you never visit Redcliffe and go straight to the templar stronghold, because of their lunatic behavior (after Fionas civil invitation, you could think, all is well with the mages, word of Alexius never reaches you in time, if you go directly after the templars), your actions are justified. The mages - cool for the moment, nothing dramatioc happening there. The templars - oh lords, what went wrong there? What did Lucius and his merry men smoke?
You can still conscript the templars afterwards, it's not that much different as if allying the mages (for example you get the same approvals) Yes, this will be my try, if I convince myself to go for them – for investigating that idiotism. Probably not with a mage, my mages don't think, this behaviour is weird – this is just Templar behaviour. My dwarf perhaps.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jun 8, 2018 21:59:54 GMT
There's clearly something going on with the templars, which gives me all the reason to investigate!
As opposed to Fiona's "friendly invitation," which is an obvious trap.
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 8, 2018 22:38:16 GMT
There's clearly something going on with the templars, which gives me all the reason to investigate! As opposed to Fiona's "friendly invitation," which is an obvious trap. Exactly, also my Trevelyan has family in the Templar Order which gives her all the more reason to go to investigate them as opposed to going to the Mages. She doesn't distrust Mages but she would rather get the Templar's help. Plus, the Breach was caused by magic itself so naturally she is inclined to go the people who can suppress magic.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 8, 2018 22:59:11 GMT
There's clearly something going on with the templars, which gives me all the reason to investigate! As opposed to Fiona's "friendly invitation," which is an obvious trap. Not for a mage. For a mage and an elf/vashoth this behaviour is "normal", usual. And Fiona's not suspicious. Ans even if suspicious: it's clear, the Templars don't want to help – and hostile. A mage an elf and a vashoth doesn't have many reasons to follow them, after the "warm welcome".
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 9, 2018 8:14:57 GMT
I'm currently doing a dwarf run and I'm thinking that perhaps he will be freaked by what he finds at Redcliffe so will head for the Templars after that. Then again, he is former Carta so I suppose if anyone might believe they can spring a trap successfully it would be him. I prefer how the CoJ run plays out with Calpernia - it is a much more interesting and informative route than with Samson - but I really don't like being labelled as pro-Templar, which is what the game does if you take that route. I need to get back into character and role play it but I haven't worked out yet if he is glad to be shot of the Carta or hoping to raised his status there as a result of his actions, which could determine which line he takes.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 9, 2018 8:20:35 GMT
But we don't see that in Val Royeaux. Sadly. I would love if we would able to do both quests. I still didn't see the CotJ, because my Inquisitors stucked with the events of Val Royeaux. Without meta, my Inquisitor can't go for the Templars. Or he could go because of the events in Val ROyeaux - to take a look at what the templars doing and maybe putting a stop to it. Don't forget, your inqui doesn't know, that s/he can't go after the mages later. In my first playthrough I thought, I could both fractions to work with me and I happened to choose to visit Redcliffe first. After the whole Tevinter chaos, I thought it best, to do that quest first and help Dorian stop ALexius. ANd then I was shocked that CotJ was no longer available. I thought, I did something wrong. What I mean is, you as player know, that you can't get both fractions for the inquisition. But if you never visit Redcliffe and go straight to the templar stronghold, because of their lunatic behavior (after Fionas civil invitation, you could think, all is well with the mages, word of Alexius never reaches you in time, if you go directly after the templars), your actions are justified. The mages - cool for the moment, nothing dramatioc happening there. The templars - oh lords, what went wrong there? What did Lucius and his merry men smoke?
You can still conscript the templars afterwards, it's not that much different as if allying the mages (for example you get the same approvals) But, why did you think you could get both groups to work with you at all? They were the opposite sides of a war. Without getting into whether or not the mages were justified in thinking this way, they believe the group you went to first to be their tyrannical former overlords seeking to recapture them. And without getting into whether or not the templars are justified in thinking this way, they believe the mages at Redcliffe to be irresponsible apostates with a generous number of dangerous maleficarum in the mix. Why would either work with you unless you went to them first?
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