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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 21, 2018 21:06:05 GMT
but Anders faked his death, so essentially it was desertion. I never understood why poor Jordy could be murdered by Duncan for refusing to take the Joining, because apparently once you agree to join there is no turning back, yet Anders could walk away, actually come into contact with Warden patrols and yet nothing is done about him. So a fair bit of inconsistency there even if you can never escape the effects of the taint. I don't see this as inconsistency. It could very well be that, with someone like Anders, the continual problem of trying to track him down is more trouble than it's worth. Even just to execute him for said desertion. Also, random warden patrols might not know about it. If you're specifically referring to the encounters we see in DA2, well those incidents have the warden team rather occupied with other concerns. I can't imagine that Stroud or Nathaniel give Anders's desertion more than a passing thought in the moment. And considering how Anders feels about the Wardens, they might just feel that the organization is better off without him. As for Jory, I thought it was pretty clear that the main reason he was killed is because the Joining ritual is meant to be kept secret. You can't just spare someone and allow them to go blabbing, "OMG you would not believe what those insane Grey Wardens wanted me to do!" Which people would. He at least would likely tell his wife, who then might tell someone else, etc. (I don't agree with keeping it secret at all, but that's how the Wardens want it.) |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2018 8:19:20 GMT
As for Jory, I thought it was pretty clear that the main reason he was killed is because the Joining ritual is meant to be kept secret. You can't just spare someone and allow them to go blabbing, "OMG you would not believe what those insane Grey Wardens wanted me to do!" Which people would. He at least would likely tell his wife, who then might tell someone else, etc. (I don't agree with keeping it secret at all, but that's how the Wardens want it.)
I got that part but then later at the Landsmeet Anora seems to know that the Joining can be fatal. Okay so she doesn't know about the whole drinking darkspawn blood aspect but it seems to me that either the ritual is kept wholly secret, so no one outside the order knows about it, or you don't bother. Why is it assumed that just because someone took the Joining that they are not going to blab about it? After all Anders does say quite a bit when you first meet him in DA2 and query why he isn't still with the Wardens. It is why I assumed originally that they are expected to break all ties with their families because there is less likelihood of them talking to other people about it.
Then in DAA they had the Senerchal Varel conducting the ritual even though he wasn't a Grey Warden but merely working for them as a consequence of them taking over Vigil's Keep. Kristoff had a wife and seemingly kept in touch. Originally it was said that magic was needed to mix the Joining potion, so if there isn't a Grey Warden mage available what then? If being not part of the order is a security risk then Anders desertion was something that should not have been ignored, particularly as he was a mage and I am sure they are only allowed to recruit from the Circles on the understanding they will keep the mage under their control. Even if the Wardens were a bit pre-occupied when we encounter them in the Deep Roads, it wouldn't have been hard for them to trace him afterwards. So the writers haven't been consistent.
(To be honest I think if Duncan had sworn Jordy to secrecy on pain of death, I think he would have kept to it. He could have been sent back to his wife as an auxiliary of the order to allay any questions on her part.)
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 10:22:31 GMT
As for Jory, I thought it was pretty clear that the main reason he was killed is because the Joining ritual is meant to be kept secret. You can't just spare someone and allow them to go blabbing, "OMG you would not believe what those insane Grey Wardens wanted me to do!" Which people would. He at least would likely tell his wife, who then might tell someone else, etc. (I don't agree with keeping it secret at all, but that's how the Wardens want it.)
I got that part but then later at the Landsmeet Anora seems to know that the Joining can be fatal. Okay so she doesn't know about the whole drinking darkspawn blood aspect but it seems to me that either the ritual is kept wholly secret, so no one outside the order knows about it, or you don't bother. Why is it assumed that just because someone took the Joining that they are not going to blab about it? After all Anders does say quite a bit when you first meet him in DA2 and query why he isn't still with the Wardens. It is why I assumed originally that they are expected to break all ties with their families because there is less likelihood of them talking to other people about it.
Then in DAA they had the Senerchal Varel conducting the ritual even though he wasn't a Grey Warden but merely working for them as a consequence of them taking over Vigil's Keep. Kristoff had a wife and seemingly kept in touch. Originally it was said that magic was needed to mix the Joining potion, so if there isn't a Grey Warden mage available what then? If being not part of the order is a security risk then Anders desertion was something that should not have been ignored, particularly as he was a mage and I am sure they are only allowed to recruit from the Circles on the understanding they will keep the mage under their control. Even if the Wardens were a bit pre-occupied when we encounter them in the Deep Roads, it wouldn't have been hard for them to trace him afterwards. So the writers haven't been consistent.
(To be honest I think if Duncan had sworn Jordy to secrecy on pain of death, I think he would have kept to it. He could have been sent back to his wife as an auxiliary of the order to allay any questions on her part.)
In the fact, that Seneschal Varel knew about the Joining ritual, I don't really see a big inconsistence. He serves the Wardens as civilian just like Malcolm Hawke, when sealed the prison – they're exceptions. I can imagine Jory would be able to keep the secret, but Duncan, personally not. Probably Duncan overreacted, but even possible, this was some rule... |
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2018 14:01:24 GMT
In the fact, that Seneschal Varel knew about the Joining ritual, I don't really see a big inconsistence. He serves the Wardens as civilian just like Malcolm Hawke, when sealed the prison – they're exceptions This isn't entirely the same. Malcolm Hawke was blackmailed into doing a blood magic ritual. However, he was an apostate mage on the run so they were going to be pretty confident he wasn't going to tell anyone. In any case it is sort of accepted that the Grey Wardens do what needs to be done in order to combat the Blight and any other threats associated with it. The Joining though would appear to be something they wish kept secret, if nothing else because they would get even less recruits if people know what it involves. So letting a civilian in their employ actually conduct the ritual does not seem to run true with this. What hold do they have over him other than, say, an oath of allegiance? If Varel could be trusted with the knowledge of the Joining ritual on the basis of such an oath, why not Jordy? How did Anora know that not all people survive the Joining if it was such a secret? Remember she says this before Loghain undertakes it, so it is not a case that he tells her about it afterwards. That's what I mean about inconsistent. At the beginning it is all hush, hush and conducted away from everyone else who is not a Grey Warden. After witnessing the Joining you either undertake it yourself or you die. You are absolutely sworn to secrecy about it even though you are irrevocably a Grey Warden. Then by the end of DAO and in DAA this is no longer the case. |
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 14:22:14 GMT
In the fact, that Seneschal Varel knew about the Joining ritual, I don't really see a big inconsistence. He serves the Wardens as civilian just like Malcolm Hawke, when sealed the prison – they're exceptions This isn't entirely the same. Malcolm Hawke was blackmailed into doing a blood magic ritual. However, he was an apostate mage on the run so they were going to be pretty confident he wasn't going to tell anyone. In any case it is sort of accepted that the Grey Wardens do what needs to be done in order to combat the Blight and any other threats associated with it. The Joining though would appear to be something they wish kept secret, if nothing else because they would get even less recruits if people know what it involves. So letting a civilian in their employ actually conduct the ritual does not seem to run true with this. What hold do they have over him other than, say, an oath of allegiance? If Varel could be trusted with the knowledge of the Joining ritual on the basis of such an oath, why not Jordy? How did Anora know that not all people survive the Joining if it was such a secret? Remember she says this before Loghain undertakes it, so it is not a case that he tells her about it afterwards. That's what I mean about inconsistent. At the beginning it is all hush, hush and conducted away from everyone else who is not a Grey Warden. After witnessing the Joining you either undertake it yourself or you die. You are absolutely sworn to secrecy about it even though you are irrevocably a Grey Warden. Then by the end of DAO and in DAA this is no longer the case. Yes, not entirely same, but not necessarily inconsistent. Jory's death can be only Duncan's decision – and we don't know about why Varel knows the ritual... Exceptions exist everywhere – true, Varel knowledge about the Grey Warden ritual is difficult to explain... |
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davesin
N3
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Post by davesin on Jul 22, 2018 14:30:37 GMT
Anora probably just knows that not every recruit becomes a proper Warden. The part about drinking darkspawn blood is still a secret.
Varel was a seneshal of the Keep and Warden-Commander's right hand. It seems impossible to keep such a secret from this person. Actually, I would be surprised if Warden's castles around Thedas weren't full of non-Warden staff who would know some of Warden's secrets.
The real question is - why anyone here thinks Jory would keep the Joining secret? That guy was liability. He believed in fairytales. Wardens were suddenly monsters in his eyes.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
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Posts: 10,670 Likes: 18,578
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Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2018 0:05:51 GMT
They own land and estates, like in DAA. That will bring in revenue. yeah they own land and estates such as when the crown gives Amaranthine to the wardens as a thank you for stopping the Blight and they can use them to help trade flourish and also bring money in that way and they can use that income to help pay for any expeditions to help monitor and deal with any darkspawn threats such as what happened in Awakening. |
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sjsharp2010
N7
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,670 Likes: 18,578
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Go Team!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2018 0:15:49 GMT
but Anders faked his death, so essentially it was desertion. I never understood why poor Jordy could be murdered by Duncan for refusing to take the Joining, because apparently once you agree to join there is no turning back, yet Anders could walk away, actually come into contact with Warden patrols and yet nothing is done about him. So a fair bit of inconsistency there even if you can never escape the effects of the taint. I don't see this as inconsistency. It could very well be that, with someone like Anders, the continual problem of trying to track him down is more trouble than it's worth. Even just to execute him for said desertion. Also, random warden patrols might not know about it. If you're specifically referring to the encounters we see in DA2, well those incidents have the warden team rather occupied with other concerns. I can't imagine that Stroud or Nathaniel give Anders's desertion more than a passing thought in the moment. And considering how Anders feels about the Wardens, they might just feel that the organization is better off without him. As for Jory, I thought it was pretty clear that the main reason he was killed is because the Joining ritual is meant to be kept secret. You can't just spare someone and allow them to go blabbing, "OMG you would not believe what those insane Grey Wardens wanted me to do!" Which people would. He at least would likely tell his wife, who then might tell someone else, etc. (I don't agree with keeping it secret at all, but that's how the Wardens want it.) Agreed plus in the middle of a Blight Grey warden's are authorised to do whatever is necessary to stop it that's where the treaties and the right of conscription and all that come in. Also in the case of Anders there wasn't any blight to worry about any more the HOF/Orlesian Warden was mainly tasked with trying to find potential recruits to replenish the number of wardens lost during the blight. Anders just happened to be one of those recruits or so the warden thought. |
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