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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 19, 2019 15:13:42 GMT
True. You can only invent so many stuff that the rest of the Milky Way hasn't managed to find solutions to in hundreds of years, in spite of several specialized projects popping up and failing repeatedly, until that suspension of disbelief is shattered for everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 15:40:18 GMT
@upagain Sorry, my post wasn't meant as a criticism to your earlier post, in fact, when I started writing it neither you nor alanc9 had yet posted your pieces. It was written as a general remark to those grousing about having to spend a whole game in a single star cluster. I wanted to illustrate in plain numbers why visiting nearby clusters in a world without mass relays wasn't feasible given the time frame of the game. sandwichtern FTL in Mass Effect is not a uniform motion but a uniformly accelerated first, then uniform, then uniformly decelerated. Of course it only reinforces your point because the average speed is lower during shorter trips. Yeah, I readily admit my knowledge when it comes to the lore on eezo and mass effects is lacking and for that reason not having taken them into account, but since it would take someone better at maths to make those calculations, it's no matter to me. 🤷♀️ Since my calculations were basic level stuff, someone with a better grasp of space physics and relevant math could doubtlessly point out even more things one should consider. No need for apologies. I really wasn't interpreting your post as a criticism of anything. I'm sorry if my post sounded like a criticism of yours. It wasn't intended to be.
I don't agree with the perceived impediment to exploring the rest of Andromeda vs. the advancement of the timeline. The ass-pull of cryo in the MEU (a concept introduced by ME1 at Ilos) totally negates the problem of lifespan vs. advancement of the timeline. The trip to Andromeda could have taken 10,000 years... it just doesn't matter. In ME3, we brought forward a Prothean more than 50,000 years. Therefore, that game established that cryo tech could survive and operate for that long. Therefore, individual characters can be brought forward millenia without aging them. Since what we would theoretically be exploring in either galaxy are complete unknowns at this point... they don't need a history that dates back to the time of Shepard.
All it means is that the exploration of the galaxies is linear... that is, we can't return to places we left hundreds or thousands of years later to find the same people we left behind (if we're talking about story) or to complete open quests (if we're talking about gameplay). If a "return" is to be worked into the story, then they would have to account for an appropriate elapsing of time to allow for whatever travel speed and distance is involved at that point. Currently, with the tech they put into the AI, the best we could do to return to the Milky Way is by adding another 634 years to the timeline. Time, therefore, in the Milky Way would have advanced 1268 years beyond the year 2185 (when the AI left the Milky Way). However, thanks to cryo, any specific character not killed during the OT could still be alive and unaged from whatever point in the timeline they entered cryo.
The tech in Andromeda can advance and change in any direction Bioware wants to take it... simply by marrying Milky Way tech with Andromeda tech (or even discovering new Andromeda tech, say, by researching Meridan). Therefore, Mass Effect relays in Andromeda could be enhanced by Andromeda tech. Bioware is no longer limited by the "lore" of the Milky Way. In truth, they never were.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 19, 2019 15:59:41 GMT
The tech in Andromeda can advance and change in any direction Bioware wants to take it... simply by marrying Milky Way tech with Andromeda tech (or even discovering new Andromeda tech, say, by researching Meridan). Therefore, Mass Effect relays in Andromeda could be enhanced by Andromeda tech. Bioware is no longer limited by the "lore" of the Milky Way. I'm 100% fine with everything you said and support you, up until this. Not that the tech in Andromeda shouldn't advance, but we've had several endeavors in MW to develop tech that the Initiative developed with a whole lot less manpower and resources in a comparatively infinitesimal time span. And this is without Andromeda tech factoring in, at least not yet. It's not lore breaking, but it is immersion breaking. It's like having Superman job to Darkseid, only for Harley Quinn to floor him with a single punch. At this point, if the Initiative had stayed in the MW, there would have been no need for the Crucible or anything. The AI could have floored the Reapers on its own.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 19, 2019 16:01:36 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 19, 2019 16:09:28 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical. Or the revelation that drives that don't need to discharge have been around for decades and no one bothered to make use of them
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 19, 2019 16:12:00 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical. Or the revelation that drives that don't need to discharge have been around for decades and no one bothered to make use of them I discharge in regular intervals and I drive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 16:15:55 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical. If, in Andromeda, we discover a tech that doesn't use the same physics, then I would say even those old Milky Way tropes can be subject to falling... just like the tropes from the 1800s - man will never fly, etc. were subject to being dispelled. If we have no hope of discovering something new, then why are we exploring? If everything has been tried in the past and failed, what can we possibly hope to achieve by exploring? Doesn't limiting the devs to the old ME lore defeat the very foundation of the ME premise that so many claim they want upheld... to explore the unknown?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 19, 2019 17:27:29 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical. If, in Andromeda, we discover a tech that doesn't use the same physics, then I would say even those old Milky Way tropes can be subject to falling... just like the tropes from the 1800s - man will never fly, etc. were subject to being dispelled. If we have no hope of discovering something new, then why are we exploring? If everything has been tried in the past and failed, what can we possibly hope to achieve by exploring? Doesn't limiting the devs to the old ME lore defeat the very foundation of the ME premise that so many claim they want upheld... to explore the unknown? I'm not arguing the eventuality of it all. Otherwise my suspension of disbelief would have snapped long, long ago. Of course the Initiative will discover all these technologies, either on its own, or from other Andromeda civilizations. If you have the Initiative, for example establish a relay network, that spans the entire galaxy in 6 months following the events of the original Andromeda, or, hell, even half the galaxy, you're gonna have a lot of people calling bullshit on that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 17:39:20 GMT
Vortex13 More and more studies about red dwarves are painting a picture that they are less and less desirable stars to live around if they can support life at all. As for the ODSY Drives, I have a feeling their advanced designs and capabilities might be tied to the Benefactor plot line.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 17:56:46 GMT
Vortex13 More and more studies about red dwarves are painting a picture that they are less and less desirable stars to live around if they can support life at all. As for the ODSY Drives, I have a feeling their advanced designs and capabilities might be tied to the Benefactor plot line. Yes, possible. Is the Benefactor even from the known Milky Way galaxy... or is he/she/it a traveler from the 99% of the Milky Way galaxy that was not explored in the OT?
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 18:04:04 GMT
Vortex13 More and more studies about red dwarves are painting a picture that they are less and less desirable stars to live around if they can support life at all. As for the ODSY Drives, I have a feeling their advanced designs and capabilities might be tied to the Benefactor plot line. All the more reason for the Initiative to want to move out into the Hellius cluster when they arrive then. The use of a red dwarf is not because of how livable it's surrounding system is, but because of how small (comparatively speaking) and long-lived it is. The colonists can still make use of cryo-sleep by utilizing mined out asteroids or planetoids orbiting said star while it provides the necessary solar power; enough to keep life support systems active at least; and while also being a perfect object to constantly discharge the massive mass effect generators' static build up into. No rectoning of previously established lore with magical ODSY drives necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 18:23:58 GMT
Vortex13 More and more studies about red dwarves are painting a picture that they are less and less desirable stars to live around if they can support life at all. As for the ODSY Drives, I have a feeling their advanced designs and capabilities might be tied to the Benefactor plot line. All the more reason for the Initiative to want to move out into the Hellius cluster when they arrive then. The use of a red dwarf is not because of how livable it's surrounding system is, but because of how small (comparatively speaking) and long-lived it is. The colonists can still make use of cryo-sleep by utilizing mined out asteroids or planetoids orbiting said star while it provides the necessary solar power; enough to keep life support systems active at least; and while also being a perfect object to constantly discharge the massive mass effect generators' static build up into. No rectoning of previously established lore with magical ODSY drives necessary. Within the time frame of just ME:A itself, I think there is ample reason for not exploring outside the Heleus cluster despite perhaps having the means to do so. Immediately upon Hyperion's arrival, they find indicators of the means to make Heleus' dead planets into the golden worlds they saw in their scans from earth. Relatively quickly, they also discover Aya. Even though it is already inhabited, it is evident that the vaults can absolutely maintain a planet suitable for habitation over a long period of time. They have no reason to out chasing the birds in the bush until they fully explore the possibilities presented by the vaults... and it's not like Ryder hasn't got enough on his/her plate to keep her active in that area for the months represented in the game's time frame.
Why didn't the Nexus go explore outside Heleus? Simple, they were tasked with staying put to wait for the arrival of the arks.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 18:42:33 GMT
Vortex13 More and more studies about red dwarves are painting a picture that they are less and less desirable stars to live around if they can support life at all. As for the ODSY Drives, I have a feeling their advanced designs and capabilities might be tied to the Benefactor plot line. All the more reason for the Initiative to want to move out into the Hellius cluster when they arrive then. The use of a red dwarf is not because of how livable it's surrounding system is, but because of how small (comparatively speaking) and long-lived it is. The colonists can still make use of cryo-sleep by utilizing mined out asteroids or planetoids orbiting said star while it provides the necessary solar power; enough to keep life support systems active at least; and while also being a perfect object to constantly discharge the massive mass effect generators' static build up into. No rectoning of previously established lore with magical ODSY drives necessary. It’d probably be better to use a white dwarf regardless. Less massive, more luminous, and since it is technically dead it doesn’t have the issues that red dwarves would bring. That said, I’d have to disagree about it being a fix. The AI having that capability would be just as contrary to the lore as the ODSY drives are (I’d argue they aren’t since Reaper vessels don’t have the issue so those drives existed before MEA).
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 19, 2019 18:55:14 GMT
Right. The only limitations that have to stay are limitations which would invalidate earlier games if abolished. For instance, bring able to use s mass relay without an active relay at the destination would render ME1 nonsensical. Or the revelation that drives that don't need to discharge have been around for decades and no one bothered to make use of them Decades? Have you a source for that? ( The Codex doesn't agree with you.) In the long term settlement patterns would be changed somewhat by the ODSY drive sure. Not very much; relay travel is so much more efficient that the vast majority of activity will always be around the relay network, just as we don't build cities in places which can only be reached by helicopter. But even this is irrelevant, since unless we ever get back to the MW, the last we ever saw of the place was too soon after the ODSY drive's development for anything much to have changed.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 19:58:18 GMT
All the more reason for the Initiative to want to move out into the Hellius cluster when they arrive then. The use of a red dwarf is not because of how livable it's surrounding system is, but because of how small (comparatively speaking) and long-lived it is. The colonists can still make use of cryo-sleep by utilizing mined out asteroids or planetoids orbiting said star while it provides the necessary solar power; enough to keep life support systems active at least; and while also being a perfect object to constantly discharge the massive mass effect generators' static build up into. No rectoning of previously established lore with magical ODSY drives necessary. It’d probably be better to use a white dwarf regardless. Less massive, more luminous, and since it is technically dead it doesn’t have the issues that red dwarves would bring. That said, I’d have to disagree about it being a fix. The AI having that capability would be just as contrary to the lore as the ODSY drives are (I’d argue they aren’t since Reaper vessels don’t have the issue so those drives existed before MEA). White dwarf stars are more massive than red dwarf stars being the collapsed restatements of larger suns, so it would be harder to move. And they tend to have a less active and/or weaker magnetic field (comparatively speaking). Also, white dwarfs, on average, usually loose their closer orbiting objects when the star expands and then collapses in on itself. The farther away material would be harder to keep in orbit once the star begins to move compared to a generally more 'compact' red dwarf system. However, both stars do have their potential uses for such an endeavor. And it's not contrary to the lore at all. We have the potential to make a Shkadov thruster around our Sun, in real life, now with currently available materials and technology. Granted, it would take the entire population of Earth working together to make such a thing happen; and it would take several hundred thousand upwards to a few million years for the Sun to begin to make any appreciable head way; but its technically possible. All the mass effect generators would be doing is shaving off that extremely slow start up speed thanks to a reduction in overall mass to the star while maintaining the same level of luminosity (or thrust). As an added bonus, red dwarfs are also so numerous, and so unsuitable to life, as you yourself said, that it would be likely that the Initiative could have set up shop around a lonely red star near the edge of the Milky Way and have been underway before the Reapers even took notice. That would require nothing new to be invented that wasn't seen outside of the original trilogy, and it wouldn't even violate the laws of the existing setting since those mass effect generators would be able to discharge their static build up into the star itself.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 20:02:54 GMT
All the more reason for the Initiative to want to move out into the Hellius cluster when they arrive then. The use of a red dwarf is not because of how livable it's surrounding system is, but because of how small (comparatively speaking) and long-lived it is. The colonists can still make use of cryo-sleep by utilizing mined out asteroids or planetoids orbiting said star while it provides the necessary solar power; enough to keep life support systems active at least; and while also being a perfect object to constantly discharge the massive mass effect generators' static build up into. No rectoning of previously established lore with magical ODSY drives necessary. Within the time frame of just ME:A itself, I think there is ample reason for not exploring outside the Heleus cluster despite perhaps having the means to do so. Immediately upon Hyperion's arrival, they find indicators of the means to make Heleus' dead planets into the golden worlds they saw in their scans from earth. Relatively quickly, they also discover Aya. Even though it is already inhabited, it is evident that the vaults can absolutely maintain a planet suitable for habitation over a long period of time. They have no reason to out chasing the birds in the bush until they fully explore the possibilities presented by the vaults... and it's not like Ryder hasn't got enough on his/her plate to keep her active in that area for the months represented in the game's time frame.
Why didn't the Nexus go explore outside Heleus? Simple, they were tasked with staying put to wait for the arrival of the arks.
Oh I'm not arguing the lack of travel outside the Hellius cluster in the game itself, I'm just saying that the introduction of the ODSY drives were lore breaking, and completely unnecessary, when you consider the much more practical (and cooler) means of travel I proposed with stellar engines.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 19, 2019 20:05:46 GMT
Or the revelation that drives that don't need to discharge have been around for decades and no one bothered to make use of them Decades? Have you a source for that? ( The Codex doesn't agree with you.) In the long term settlement patterns would be changed somewhat by the ODSY drive sure. Not very much; relay travel is so much more efficient that the vast majority of activity will always be around the relay network, just as we don't build cities in places which can only be reached by helicopter. But even this is irrelevant, since unless we ever get back to the MW, the last we ever saw of the place was too soon after the ODSY drive's development for anything much to have changed. A decade, at least. Unless you think the Andromeda Initiative started building ships before they had a means of actually getting them to Andromeda?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 20:20:01 GMT
Within the time frame of just ME:A itself, I think there is ample reason for not exploring outside the Heleus cluster despite perhaps having the means to do so. Immediately upon Hyperion's arrival, they find indicators of the means to make Heleus' dead planets into the golden worlds they saw in their scans from earth. Relatively quickly, they also discover Aya. Even though it is already inhabited, it is evident that the vaults can absolutely maintain a planet suitable for habitation over a long period of time. They have no reason to out chasing the birds in the bush until they fully explore the possibilities presented by the vaults... and it's not like Ryder hasn't got enough on his/her plate to keep her active in that area for the months represented in the game's time frame.
Why didn't the Nexus go explore outside Heleus? Simple, they were tasked with staying put to wait for the arrival of the arks.
Oh I'm not arguing the lack of travel outside the Hellius cluster in the game itself, I'm just saying that the introduction of the ODSY drives were lore breaking, and completely unnecessary, when you consider the much more practical (and cooler) means of travel I proposed with stellar engines. Again, the ODSY Drives aren't lore breaking. Reapers have drives that can do what they do, and more notably Collector ships have drives with the same capabilities. Now how the AI got their hands on the plans to create the ODSY Drives is a mystery certainly, and one I suspect could be delved into when investigating the truth behind the venture, but they aren't lore breaking. As for more practical and cooler, I'd have to disagree with that on both fronts when it comes to stellar engines. Sure, astronomy nuts like us know about it, but most fans aren't that so that would receive a lot more complaints than the ODSY Drives did. It also opens up it's own Pandora's Box of issues when looking back on the Shepard Trilogy, since technology like that would have been very useful in defending against the Reapers.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 20:37:35 GMT
Oh I'm not arguing the lack of travel outside the Hellius cluster in the game itself, I'm just saying that the introduction of the ODSY drives were lore breaking, and completely unnecessary, when you consider the much more practical (and cooler) means of travel I proposed with stellar engines. Again, the ODSY Drives aren't lore breaking. Reapers have drives that can do what they do, and more notably Collector ships have drives with the same capabilities. Now how the AI got their hands on the plans to create the ODSY Drives is a mystery certainly, and one I suspect could be delved into when investigating the truth behind the venture, but they aren't lore breaking. As for more practical and cooler, I'd have to disagree with that on both fronts when it comes to stellar engines. Sure, astronomy nuts like us know about it, but most fans aren't that so that would receive a lot more complaints than the ODSY Drives did. It also opens up it's own Pandora's Box of issues when looking back on the Shepard Trilogy, since technology like that would have been very useful in defending against the Reapers. That's exactly the problem, the Reapers (and their thralls) had them not the races of the galaxy. The introduction the ODSY drives, to a non-military and privately funded colonization effort no less, while the best and brightest back home had no means of doing the same is lore-breaking. You say the use of astrological-engineering would cause issues, but what about these magical drives that violate all known laws of mass effect technology? Slowly moving a star around isn't going to do anything to help in the war effort, but drives that never need discharging? That have effectively unlimited range? Those would have massively impacted the war effort. And there wasn't stellar engines present in the trilogy true (that we saw at any rate), but there was Turian mass effect generators giving their entire moon an atmosphere and gravity. There was an orbiting equatorial particle accelerator, built by the Asari around one of their colony worlds. Etc. None of those massive feats of engineering caused issues with the narrative concerning the Reaper invasion and neither would Shkadov thrusters. If the Reapers were aware of such a megastructure, they could easily catch up or dodge out of the way, so I don't see how using them would open any sort of Pandora's Box or helped in the slightest with galactic defense.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 20:53:56 GMT
Again, the ODSY Drives aren't lore breaking. Reapers have drives that can do what they do, and more notably Collector ships have drives with the same capabilities. Now how the AI got their hands on the plans to create the ODSY Drives is a mystery certainly, and one I suspect could be delved into when investigating the truth behind the venture, but they aren't lore breaking. As for more practical and cooler, I'd have to disagree with that on both fronts when it comes to stellar engines. Sure, astronomy nuts like us know about it, but most fans aren't that so that would receive a lot more complaints than the ODSY Drives did. It also opens up it's own Pandora's Box of issues when looking back on the Shepard Trilogy, since technology like that would have been very useful in defending against the Reapers. That's exactly the problem, the Reapers (and their thralls) had them not the races of the galaxy. The introduction the ODSY drives, to a non-military and privately funded colonization effort no less, while the best and brightest back home had no means of doing the same is lore-breaking. You say the use of astrological-engineering would cause issues, but what about these magical drives that violate all known laws of mass effect technology? Slowly moving a star around isn't going to do anything to help in the war effort, but drives that never need discharging? That have effectively unlimited range? Those would have massively impacted the war effort. And there wasn't stellar engines present in the trilogy true (that we saw at any rate), but there was Turian mass effect generators giving their entire moon an atmosphere and gravity. There was an orbiting equatorial particle accelerator, built by the Asari around one of their colony worlds. Etc. None of those massive feats of engineering caused issues with the narrative concerning the Reaper invasion and neither would Shkadov thrusters. If the Reapers were aware of such a megastructure, they could easily catch up or dodge out of the way, so I don't see how using them would open any sort of Pandora's Box or helped in the slightest with galactic defense. Again, not a problem but a mystery. How did the Benefactor know how to make the ODSY Drives? Did they get the schematics from somewhere? Why would they want to keep this secret from the rest of the galaxy, like they did the Reapers in general? And so on and so forth. It creates a lot of intrigue into this mysterious person or group who used the AI for their own ends, adding to the questions that'd be investigated. As for those examples, sure but they were no more than Codex entries. They didn't cause issues with the narrative because they had nothing to do with the narrative. Even then there have been blowback from some projects that are even simpler than that, like the colony on Bernstein being a giant metropolis when it was only founded a couple decades prior. Now if any of these were a big part of the plot like the Shkadov thrusters then absolutely there would have been blowback. Look at the complaints that already exist about things like the Crucible or even just the Nexus and Arks not counting their drives. And those things are child's play compared to moving a star system. As for the Pandora's Box, here's an example: If there were machines that could generate so much mass effect energy to reduce the mass of a star, why didn't the governments have such technology on their worlds to create nigh impenetrable kinetic barriers or a weapon system that could shred even the Reapers to ribbons?
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 21:18:20 GMT
That's exactly the problem, the Reapers (and their thralls) had them not the races of the galaxy. The introduction the ODSY drives, to a non-military and privately funded colonization effort no less, while the best and brightest back home had no means of doing the same is lore-breaking. You say the use of astrological-engineering would cause issues, but what about these magical drives that violate all known laws of mass effect technology? Slowly moving a star around isn't going to do anything to help in the war effort, but drives that never need discharging? That have effectively unlimited range? Those would have massively impacted the war effort. And there wasn't stellar engines present in the trilogy true (that we saw at any rate), but there was Turian mass effect generators giving their entire moon an atmosphere and gravity. There was an orbiting equatorial particle accelerator, built by the Asari around one of their colony worlds. Etc. None of those massive feats of engineering caused issues with the narrative concerning the Reaper invasion and neither would Shkadov thrusters. If the Reapers were aware of such a megastructure, they could easily catch up or dodge out of the way, so I don't see how using them would open any sort of Pandora's Box or helped in the slightest with galactic defense. Again, not a problem but a mystery. How did the Benefactor know how to make the ODSY Drives? Did they get the schematics from somewhere? Why would they want to keep this secret from the rest of the galaxy, like they did the Reapers in general? And so on and so forth. It creates a lot of intrigue into this mysterious person or group who used the AI for their own ends, adding to the questions that'd be investigated. As for those examples, sure but they were no more than Codex entries. They didn't cause issues with the narrative because they had nothing to do with the narrative. Even then there have been blowback from some projects that are even simpler than that, like the colony on Bernstein being a giant metropolis when it was only founded a couple decades prior. Now if any of these were a big part of the plot like the Shkadov thrusters then absolutely there would have been blowback. Look at the complaints that already exist about things like the Crucible or even just the Nexus and Arks not counting their drives. And those things are child's play compared to moving a star system. As for the Pandora's Box, here's an example: If there were machines that could generate so much mass effect energy to reduce the mass of a star, why didn't the governments have such technology on their worlds to create nigh impenetrable kinetic barriers or a weapon system that could shred even the Reapers to ribbons? The complaints about the Nexus and the Arks, in addition to the ODSY drives, was how massive the ships were. It stretched immersion at how could such a privately-funded civilian project create whole ships and stations from scratch that not only rivaled Reaper made stations like the Citadel in size, but also in terms of sheer complexity; being able to be operated entirely via AI control. The advantage to using something like a Shkadov thruster is that you don't need to create all that infrastructure. The red dwarf, and its orbiting system, handles all the logistics concerning motive power, as well as passenger space. All you have to do is either build (or purchase) the massive generators and then construct a reflective mirror, or array of satellites, that would be used to re-direct the star's light. Both of those feats are within the realms of possibility; the Turian moon for the generators, and thousands of solar collectors mentioned as far back as the Krogan Rebellions; and neither break immersion. Unlike a private civilian organization somehow building something comparable to the Citadel as well as constructing 5 Ark ships bigger than anything else ever produced and doing them all from scratch; and all within the span of a few years.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 21:24:27 GMT
Again, not a problem but a mystery. How did the Benefactor know how to make the ODSY Drives? Did they get the schematics from somewhere? Why would they want to keep this secret from the rest of the galaxy, like they did the Reapers in general? And so on and so forth. It creates a lot of intrigue into this mysterious person or group who used the AI for their own ends, adding to the questions that'd be investigated. As for those examples, sure but they were no more than Codex entries. They didn't cause issues with the narrative because they had nothing to do with the narrative. Even then there have been blowback from some projects that are even simpler than that, like the colony on Bernstein being a giant metropolis when it was only founded a couple decades prior. Now if any of these were a big part of the plot like the Shkadov thrusters then absolutely there would have been blowback. Look at the complaints that already exist about things like the Crucible or even just the Nexus and Arks not counting their drives. And those things are child's play compared to moving a star system. As for the Pandora's Box, here's an example: If there were machines that could generate so much mass effect energy to reduce the mass of a star, why didn't the governments have such technology on their worlds to create nigh impenetrable kinetic barriers or a weapon system that could shred even the Reapers to ribbons? The complaints about the Nexus and the Arks, in addition to the ODSY drives, was how massive the ships were. It stretched immersion at how could such a privately-funded civilian project create whole ships and stations from scratch that not only rivaled Reaper made stations like the Citadel in size, but also in terms of sheer complexity; being able to be operated entirely via AI control. The advantage to using something like a Shkadov thruster is that you don't need to create all that infrastructure. The red dwarf, and its orbiting system, handles all the logistics concerning motive power, as well as passenger space. All you have to do is either build (or purchase) the massive generators and then construct a reflective mirror, or array of satellites, that would be used to re-direct the star's light. Both of those feats are within the realms of possibility; the Turian moon for the generators, and thousands of solar collectors mentioned as far back as the Krogan Rebellions; and neither break immersion. Unlike a private civilian organization somehow building something comparable to the Citadel as well as constructing 5 Ark ships bigger than anything else ever produced and doing them all from scratch; and all within the span of a few years. And yet you're saying that this same privately-funded civilian project could do something you earlier said would take the entire human race to do. You're just proving why this idea of yours isn't practical and just makes a bigger mess. Also really? Operated entirely by AI control is a complex thing? They put the ships on autopilot, something we can do easily now. Regardless, I'm glad Bioware didn't go this route. Now please address the first part of my post? The same part that addresses all these things you brought up.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 21:38:50 GMT
The complaints about the Nexus and the Arks, in addition to the ODSY drives, was how massive the ships were. It stretched immersion at how could such a privately-funded civilian project create whole ships and stations from scratch that not only rivaled Reaper made stations like the Citadel in size, but also in terms of sheer complexity; being able to be operated entirely via AI control. The advantage to using something like a Shkadov thruster is that you don't need to create all that infrastructure. The red dwarf, and its orbiting system, handles all the logistics concerning motive power, as well as passenger space. All you have to do is either build (or purchase) the massive generators and then construct a reflective mirror, or array of satellites, that would be used to re-direct the star's light. Both of those feats are within the realms of possibility; the Turian moon for the generators, and thousands of solar collectors mentioned as far back as the Krogan Rebellions; and neither break immersion. Unlike a private civilian organization somehow building something comparable to the Citadel as well as constructing 5 Ark ships bigger than anything else ever produced and doing them all from scratch; and all within the span of a few years. And yet you're saying that this same privately-funded civilian project could do something you earlier said would take the entire human race to do. You're just proving why this idea of yours isn't practical and just makes a bigger mess. Also really? Operated entirely by AI control is a complex thing? They put the ships on autopilot, something we can do easily now. Regardless, I'm glad Bioware didn't go this route. Now please address the first part of my post? The same part that addresses all these things you brought up. Yes, because they would have access to Mass Effect technology not current, real-world tech. It would take us 40,000 to 50,000 years to send a ship to Alpha Centari using our current means, but your average civilian ship in Mass Effect can do the same trip in a few hours. If we can move our own Sun in the real world, which is way more massive than a simple red dwarf, then how much easier would it be for a space age civilization with access to mass altering capabilities? Private mining companies can go harvest ezo from pulars with just a handful of individuals so assuming the Initiative could set up a Shkadov thruster isn't really stretching things. Certainly no where close to that same group somehow building their own version of the Citadel and their own fleet super-dreadnought sized ARK ships from scratch in five years; while also inventing the ODSY drives. And your first part of the post is all supposition. We shouldn't concern ourselves with a massive plot hole and/or lore recton because its a mystery? Sounds like a copout on the part of BioWare's writers more likely.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2019 21:46:53 GMT
And yet you're saying that this same privately-funded civilian project could do something you earlier said would take the entire human race to do. You're just proving why this idea of yours isn't practical and just makes a bigger mess. Also really? Operated entirely by AI control is a complex thing? They put the ships on autopilot, something we can do easily now. Regardless, I'm glad Bioware didn't go this route. Now please address the first part of my post? The same part that addresses all these things you brought up. Yes, because they would have access to Mass Effect technology not current, real-world tech. It would take us 40,000 to 50,000 years to send a ship to Alpha Centari using our current means, but your average civilian ship in Mass Effect can do the same trip in a few hours. If we can move our own Sun in the real world, which is way more massive than a simple red dwarf, then how much easier would it be for a space age civilization with access to mass altering capabilities? Private mining companies can go harvest ezo from pulars with just a handful of individuals so assuming the Initiative could set up a Shkadov thruster isn't really stretching things. Certainly no where close to that same group somehow building their own version of the Citadel and their own fleet super-dreadnought sized ARK ships from scratch in five years; while also inventing the ODSY drives. And your first part of the post is all supposition. We shouldn't concern ourselves with a massive plot hole and/or lore recton because its a mystery? Sounds like a copout on the part of BioWare's writers more likely. Then how come the galaxy didn't do it? If they never did but the AI did, there would be this exact same conversation. Guaranteed. Except again, it is not a lore retcon. The technology exists. The only question is how did they get it? That's not a plot hole or copout unless they never address it. And considering they have stated after MEA came out that the thing with the Benefactor is not only not done but a big part of the mega story of the series that's highly unlikely. But fine, if you don't want to discuss it then there is no real point continuing to discuss with you since it's just going to be a circular argument.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 19, 2019 22:15:04 GMT
Yes, because they would have access to Mass Effect technology not current, real-world tech. It would take us 40,000 to 50,000 years to send a ship to Alpha Centari using our current means, but your average civilian ship in Mass Effect can do the same trip in a few hours. If we can move our own Sun in the real world, which is way more massive than a simple red dwarf, then how much easier would it be for a space age civilization with access to mass altering capabilities? Private mining companies can go harvest ezo from pulars with just a handful of individuals so assuming the Initiative could set up a Shkadov thruster isn't really stretching things. Certainly no where close to that same group somehow building their own version of the Citadel and their own fleet super-dreadnought sized ARK ships from scratch in five years; while also inventing the ODSY drives. And your first part of the post is all supposition. We shouldn't concern ourselves with a massive plot hole and/or lore recton because its a mystery? Sounds like a copout on the part of BioWare's writers more likely. Then how come the galaxy didn't do it? If they never did but the AI did, there would be this exact same conversation. Guaranteed. Except again, it is not a lore retcon. The technology exists. The only question is how did they get it? That's not a plot hole or copout unless they never address it. And considering they have stated after MEA came out that the thing with the Benefactor is not only not done but a big part of the mega story of the series that's highly unlikely. But fine, if you don't want to discuss it then there is no real point continuing to discuss with you since it's just going to be a circular argument. Becuase outside the Reaper threat there was no reason to even think about leaving a galaxy that was over 99% still unexplored. The technology magically appears thanks to the 'Benefactor' but is otherwise unexplained, that seems like a lore plothole to me. Sure the next game could answer all the questions about were it came from but it still doesn't explain how "the hand of god/the writers" came up with it; nor is there any guarantee that there will be another game.
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