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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2019 17:10:10 GMT
Definition of Dark Space per the Mass Effect Wiki: "Dark space (or intergalactic space) is the name of the physical space between galaxies in the same way as interstellar space is the space between stars within a galaxy. Dark space is completely dark, as it contains little to no stars and makes up almost the entire volume of the universe, where galaxies are only small islands of light. The distance between two neighboring galaxies is in the order of several million light-years, while the diameter of the Milky Way's galactic disc is only about 100,000 light-years." So it's an emptiness. A void. Full of nothing and nothing to do. I guess they could have made an empty map, with nothing to do that we can't even circle around, but that's not very exciting. And there's no point to it. It could have a point, had there been a neighbouring galaxy that we could reach, but there's nothing. In the Heleus cluster, though, there is a neighbouring cluster that is within a figurative arm's length with stuff to do and explore, for sure. So, your saying that it's at least 3 years away from ANY edge of the Milky Way galaxy? What is then the space between galactic space and dark space? My mistake, then. I thought we meant "dark space" to be the point that is inhabited by the Reapers. If it is the emptiness between galaxies, then you can just take a relay that drives you to the edge of the galaxy and just walk out. Definition of Dark Sapce per Merriam-Webster: " any of several regions or layers in the visible-glow discharge of a gas-filled cold-cathode electron tube that remain nonluminous or exhibit low light intensity until the ions in such spaces acquire sufficient energy to excite fluorescence in the tube gas"
So, I ask again - Where is dark space? Mass Effect's answer is that it is everywhere outside the galaxy. If I'm at any edge of the galaxy, I am immediately adjacent to dark space. Since the galaxy is not a "solid" or confined space with vase expanses of scientifically dark space between visible clusters, where precisely are the galactic edges?
This is a great flaw in the Mass Effect lore, IMO... and it was there from the beginning. There are no walls or roads or actual corridors in space. Yes, OK, I get your point. But it's empty. Like go here. Good, now it's 600 years to the closest other galaxy to explore, just explore this vast dark sea of unfathomable emptiness. You can, but there is no point. Well, yes and no. Dark space isn't empty at all. It's believed that half the stars in the universe exist in the dark space between galaxies. It's just since space is so massive, as said most of the universe is dark space, and they aren't clumped together in galaxies you can't see them. It's like how it is easier to see a city from space at night compared to all the ships on the ocean.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 21, 2019 17:19:24 GMT
No, you're not seeing the point at all. Dark space is not a defined space at all. It is an unobserved space because there is no light to reveal it. Scientists know that dark space has matter (dark matter, dark energy) because how the stars we see through space behave. It's not a place, it's space. OK.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 21, 2019 17:21:25 GMT
Well, yes and no. Dark space isn't empty at all. It's believed that half the stars in the universe exist in the dark space between galaxies. It's just since space is so massive, as said most of the universe is dark space, and they aren't clumped together in galaxies you can't see them. It's like how it is easier to see a city from space at night compared to all the ships on the ocean. So it's not pointless, just incredibly dangerous and nearly impossible to traverse. Sounds like a good enough reason NOT to go there, then.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 21, 2019 17:23:58 GMT
Well, yes and no. Dark space isn't empty at all. It's believed that half the stars in the universe exist in the dark space between galaxies. It's just since space is so massive, as said most of the universe is dark space, and they aren't clumped together in galaxies you can't see them. It's like how it is easier to see a city from space at night compared to all the ships on the ocean. So it's not pointless, just incredibly dangerous and nearly impossible to traverse. Sounds like a good enough reason NOT to go there, then. Yep, which is why the Reapers saw that as the perfect place to take their naps. Also why nobody in our cycle that we know about tried to traverse it to get to another galaxy until the Andromeda Initiative had the means to get there safely.
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Post by Silcron on Oct 21, 2019 19:18:56 GMT
Hello. I've been reading the thread on the commute and I think I can solve part of this discussion. What Sirpetrakus is saying about not being able to go outside the cluster is based on what Hanako stated about the Initiative ships being so fast that in a future Mass Effect game time between trips without relays would not be a problem. I think throughout this thread that idea has proven to be wrong, though there have also been several ideas to work around the problem of how much time it takes to travel from cluster to cluster. (I particularly like UpUpAgain's idea of reusing the cryo technology). One thing that has not been brought up regarding the topic is how the Khett ships travel around their empire. Maybe we just need to reverse engineer one of their ships to solve the problem. Basically what I'm saying is that Sirpetrakus would be right about what they say if the assumption about traveling from cluster to cluster taking no significant time was also right. It is not, so their complaints about the developers constraining us to one cluster without a story reason is moot. It would take too long to travel to another cluster and the colonies would die. We have to stay and do our job as Pathfinder. I hope this can clear up this misunderstanding. Sirpetrakus was arguing against a hypothetical.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2019 20:32:38 GMT
For any future Mass Effect games, I would like to see the setting go back into a more "realistic" take on it's fictional elements rather than the disappointing use of space magic we've seen for the past two titles.
The initial assumption about the setting of Mass Effect was "What if there was a means of lowering an object's mass, so as to bypass the light speed limit?" This question, and the fictional means of answering it, formed the basis for the setting and how the myriad of species inhabiting said setting, along with their civilizations, behaved. Mass Effect drives, the Mass Relays, biotics, and general space age society/technology was all based around that one question, then applied to more grounded, or real world science.
Granted, there was some liberties taken with the way things were initially presented but, for the most part, everything was set within the restrictions of what would be possible in the real world… if we could manipulate mass.
Flash forward to the third game and all that underlying science, that explanation behind things in a clear logical fashion, is replaced with "mystery" and an overdose of space magic.
How does the Crucible fire a wave of energy capable of traversing the entire galaxy in the span of a few seconds, yet doesn't torch literally everything in it's path? Indeed, how can this energy wave somehow specifically target only Reaper technology in a destructive fashion, act as a command override signal, and/or implement massive genetic modifications, on a galaxy full of wholly diverse organisms, and instantly alter everything to now be fully cybernetic? And all of this somehow determined by shooting a conduit with a gun, grabbing hold of electrodes, or jumping into a beam of energy.
BioWare's answer: "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain." or Space Magic™
Andromeda dives headlong into equal levels of fantasy with the Remnant and the Vaults.
How can a device suddenly alter widely different factors on a planetary scale, but also directly manipulate a world's entire biosphere in the span of a few seconds?
BioWare's answer: The meme-worthy catch-all explanation of "Nano-machines son!" or Space Magic™
I would personally like to see the game go back to a more logical and grounded take on the science fiction genre. Things would actually make sense without feeling like a direct writer copout/ass-pull and, contrary to dissenting opinions, it could still involve wild and "fantastical" elements. Shkadov thrusters. Penrose Spheres/Black Hole Bombs. Niccol-Dyson Beam arrays. Matrioshka Brains. Etc. all of those concepts are based in real world science and have applications perfect for potential sequels.
And they have actual explanations behind how they would work.
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Post by ahglock on Oct 21, 2019 21:30:09 GMT
I'd be shocked to find out that bioware knows the answer to that. They picked mysterious benefactor because they didn't want to come up with a story for how this all happened. How did we get the magic space drive, its a mystery from mystery people. They did come up with a story. Just not one you liked. Then what’s the story for how the benefactor got the technology?
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Post by ahglock on Oct 21, 2019 21:32:45 GMT
I'd be shocked to find out that bioware knows the answer to that. They picked mysterious benefactor because they didn't want to come up with a story for how this all happened. How did we get the magic space drive, its a mystery from mystery people. ... or could it be linked to the "Alien Ghost Ship" Cerberus Daily News items that Hanako Ikezawa linked to on the other thread? One of the story mentions that the virtual aliens offered technical knowledge beyond anything we had in exchange for being supplied power for their ship. That was in 2185.
Could be. And they may go with that. I suspect they had no idea at the time of writing and won’t have a idea until and when it needs to be revealed in a potential future game. I have seen no evidence BioWare plans their multi part games stories in advance.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 21, 2019 22:03:06 GMT
They did come up with a story. Just not one you liked. Then what’s the story for how the benefactor got the technology? I misread what you were saying. No we don't know how yet that imo wasn't important in the first game. We should find out more in the second.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 22:55:55 GMT
... or could it be linked to the "Alien Ghost Ship" Cerberus Daily News items that Hanako Ikezawa linked to on the other thread? One of the story mentions that the virtual aliens offered technical knowledge beyond anything we had in exchange for being supplied power for their ship. That was in 2185.
Could be. And they may go with that. I suspect they had no idea at the time of writing and won’t have a idea until and when it needs to be revealed in a potential future game. I have seen no evidence BioWare plans their multi part games stories in advance. I somewhat agree... They certainly don't plan them out well. That's why the stories are never as "tight" as they could be. I tend to think though that they have a bit of a philosophy of writing in enough vaguer references to a bunch of different general ideas that they leave themselves breadcrumbs that can be picked up in a number of different ways should the need arise.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 23:19:27 GMT
For any future Mass Effect games, I would like to see the setting go back into a more "realistic" take on it's fictional elements rather than the disappointing use of space magic we've seen for the past two titles. The initial assumption about the setting of Mass Effect was "What if there was a means of lowering an object's mass, so as to bypass the light speed limit?" This question, and the fictional means of answering it, formed the basis for the setting and how the myriad of species inhabiting said setting, along with their civilizations, behaved. Mass Effect drives, the Mass Relays, biotics, and general space age society/technology was all based around that one question, then applied to more grounded, or real world science. Granted, there was some liberties taken with the way things were initially presented but, for the most part, everything was set within the restrictions of what would be possible in the real world… if we could manipulate mass. Flash forward to the third game and all that underlying science, that explanation behind things in a clear logical fashion, is replaced with "mystery" and an overdose of space magic. How does the Crucible fire a wave of energy capable of traversing the entire galaxy in the span of a few seconds, yet doesn't torch literally everything in it's path? Indeed, how can this energy wave somehow specifically target only Reaper technology in a destructive fashion, act as a command override signal, and/or implement massive genetic modifications, on a galaxy full of wholly diverse organisms, and instantly alter everything to now be fully cybernetic? And all of this somehow determined by shooting a conduit with a gun, grabbing hold of electrodes, or jumping into a beam of energy. BioWare's answer: "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain." or Space Magic™ Andromeda dives headlong into equal levels of fantasy with the Remnant and the Vaults. How can a device suddenly alter widely different factors on a planetary scale, but also directly manipulate a world's entire biosphere in the span of a few seconds? BioWare's answer: The meme-worthy catch-all explanation of "Nano-machines son!" or Space Magic™ I would personally like to see the game go back to a more logical and grounded take on the science fiction genre. Things would actually make sense without feeling like a direct writer copout/ass-pull and, contrary to dissenting opinions, it could still involve wild and "fantastical" elements. Shkadov thrusters. Penrose Spheres/Black Hole Bombs. Niccol-Dyson Beam arrays. Matrioshka Brains. Etc. all of those concepts are based in real world science and have applications perfect for potential sequels. And they have actual explanations behind how they would work. Explain how a point to point mass relay system only manipulates mass in one direction such that travel is only possible from Ilos to the Citadel and not in reverse. Explain how a mako generates enough initial forward momentum to get them across the entire Milky Way Galaxy even when mass is being manipulated when were are shown that the Normandy mustch accelerate towards the larger relay to a far greater speed to go from near Earth to Eden Prime (not nearly the distance from Ilos to the Citadel). Explain how a being that can send audible signals across space (that burrow into the minds of organics) but cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space." Explain how there is a defined edge between the galaxy and dark space that cannot just be traversed openly at any point in any direction, but must be access through a relay. (Then from ME2, explain what the Reapers were doing trying to find their way through the Alpha Relay in two years when they eventually managed to enter the galaxy from dark space without said relay in only six months. Explain how a being that can send signals out across space cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space.")
Explain how indoctrination converts salarians to mindless husks (but ones who retain their physical appearance) inside a week, but doesn't affect Saren or Shiala or Benezia or any of the Asari commandos the same way... even when they've been exposed to it for a much longer period of time. Explain why the Thorian physically changes the appearance of its thralls to look like husks when part of the appearances of things are that they pantomine a normal existence and how does that transformation actually take place. Explain why merely impalling a human on a spike alive fills them with cybernetic implants.
I think there is plenty of in ME1 and ME2 that is left up to "space magic."
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2019 23:21:44 GMT
For any future Mass Effect games, I would like to see the setting go back into a more "realistic" take on it's fictional elements rather than the disappointing use of space magic we've seen for the past two titles. The initial assumption about the setting of Mass Effect was "What if there was a means of lowering an object's mass, so as to bypass the light speed limit?" This question, and the fictional means of answering it, formed the basis for the setting and how the myriad of species inhabiting said setting, along with their civilizations, behaved. Mass Effect drives, the Mass Relays, biotics, and general space age society/technology was all based around that one question, then applied to more grounded, or real world science. Agreed, with a couple of caveats. The blatant violations of conservation of energy mass effect tech would make possible aren't addressed, for instance,and FTL is just a handwave (although one which was good enough for both "Doc" Smith and Frederik Pohl, so I'll give it a pass.) But that's just WRT broad strokes. As noted above, Bio made a hash of the details.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 2:09:19 GMT
For any future Mass Effect games, I would like to see the setting go back into a more "realistic" take on it's fictional elements rather than the disappointing use of space magic we've seen for the past two titles. The initial assumption about the setting of Mass Effect was "What if there was a means of lowering an object's mass, so as to bypass the light speed limit?" This question, and the fictional means of answering it, formed the basis for the setting and how the myriad of species inhabiting said setting, along with their civilizations, behaved. Mass Effect drives, the Mass Relays, biotics, and general space age society/technology was all based around that one question, then applied to more grounded, or real world science. Granted, there was some liberties taken with the way things were initially presented but, for the most part, everything was set within the restrictions of what would be possible in the real world… if we could manipulate mass. Flash forward to the third game and all that underlying science, that explanation behind things in a clear logical fashion, is replaced with "mystery" and an overdose of space magic. How does the Crucible fire a wave of energy capable of traversing the entire galaxy in the span of a few seconds, yet doesn't torch literally everything in it's path? Indeed, how can this energy wave somehow specifically target only Reaper technology in a destructive fashion, act as a command override signal, and/or implement massive genetic modifications, on a galaxy full of wholly diverse organisms, and instantly alter everything to now be fully cybernetic? And all of this somehow determined by shooting a conduit with a gun, grabbing hold of electrodes, or jumping into a beam of energy. BioWare's answer: "You would not know them, and there is no time to explain." or Space Magic™ Andromeda dives headlong into equal levels of fantasy with the Remnant and the Vaults. How can a device suddenly alter widely different factors on a planetary scale, but also directly manipulate a world's entire biosphere in the span of a few seconds? BioWare's answer: The meme-worthy catch-all explanation of "Nano-machines son!" or Space Magic™ I would personally like to see the game go back to a more logical and grounded take on the science fiction genre. Things would actually make sense without feeling like a direct writer copout/ass-pull and, contrary to dissenting opinions, it could still involve wild and "fantastical" elements. Shkadov thrusters. Penrose Spheres/Black Hole Bombs. Niccol-Dyson Beam arrays. Matrioshka Brains. Etc. all of those concepts are based in real world science and have applications perfect for potential sequels. And they have actual explanations behind how they would work. Explain how a point to point mass relay system only manipulates mass in one direction such that travel is only possible from Ilos to the Citadel and not in reverse. Explain how a mako generates enough initial forward momentum to get them across the entire Milky Way Galaxy even when mass is being manipulated when were are shown that the Normandy must accelerate towards the larger relay to a far greater speed to go from near Earth to Eden Prime (not nearly the distance from Ilos to the Citadel). Explain how a being that can send audible signals across space (that burrow into the minds of organics) but cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space." Explain how there is a defined edge between the galaxy and dark space that cannot just be traversed openly at any point in any direction, but must be access through a relay. (Then from ME2, explain what the Reapers were doing trying to find their way through the Alpha Relay in two years when they eventually managed to enter the galaxy from dark space without said relay in only six months. Explain how a being that can send signals out across space cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space.")
Explain how indoctrination converts salarians to mindless husks (but ones who retain their physical appearance) inside a week, but doesn't affect Saren or Shiala or Benezia or any of the Asari commandos the same way... even when they've been exposed to it for a much longer period of time. Explain why the Thorian physically changes the appearance of its thralls to look like husks when part of the appearances of things are that they pantomime a normal existence and how does that transformation actually take place. Explain why merely impaling a human on a spike alive fills them with cybernetic implants.
I think there is plenty of in ME1 and ME2 that is left up to "space magic."
Easy, the Conduit is a smaller scale Mass Relay built by the Protheans rather than the Reapers. If you'll recall, Joker mentions how the Normandy's drift was just under 1,500 K after transitioning the Eden Prime Relay. 1,500 kilometers is a heck of margin for error; and could actually be even wider if Nilius' compliment of Joker's piloting skills is any indication. This tells us that the Mass Relay system is not pinpoint accurate which, when combined with the revelations Vigil tells the player on Illos, informs us that the Reapers intentionally leave the relay network "sub-optimized" for the species of the current cycle. They orchestrate the current society to assume that the relays operate on one level of output when they are actually much more accurate than they initially appear. Galactic society doesn't recognize the Citadel as a Mass Relay because it doesn't fit what they think they know about them; and this is even before we incorporate the fact that the Keepers obfuscate aliens' attempts to understand the Citadel's inner workings. The Conduit, however, is not of Reaper make. In creating a prototype Mass Relay, the Protheans would have had to realize that such devices were capable of far more than they initially assumed. They would also have had no reason to build their own version with such inefficiencies. Knowing this, we can then infer that the Conduit was able to propel the Mako all the way across the galaxy to the Presidium with less required speed because it wasn't "out of tune" like the Reaper versions were. Before this information could be made known to the rest of the Prothean empire though, the Reaper invasion happened and all personal & data on the Citadel was lost. As for why it didn't work in reverse, the Citadel's side of the Prothean relay was never activated; thanks to Keeper presence keeping the current cycle ignorant of things. After Saren and Shepard use the thing its likely to assume that the destruction of Sovereign, coupled with the power failures of the entire Illos facility, would have rendered the Conduit inert. For the Reaper/Dark Space question. There is nothing that says that Sovereign was unable to talk to the rest of the mecha-Cthulhus, just that he couldn't open the Citadel relay for them. It's very likely that he was in constant communication with the rest of the Reapers throughout the entirety of Mass Effect 1. As for why the other Reapers didn't make their presence known until the sequels, why would they? They had no reason to assume that this cycle would be any different from the countless ones they've had previously. Their plan hit an unexpected snag, but as far as they were concerned Sovereign was more than enough to correct the issue and usher in the next invasion. And there never was any "defined edge" to dark space in Mass Effect; unless you're talking about in-game map boarders in which case that's a game play limitation, not a statement on the overall lore of the setting. Nothing was stopping a ship from flying off into dark space save for the fact that there was no means of discharging mass drive cores out in the void; effectively limiting traversal in that direction. Furthermore, the Alpha Relay in ME 2 was a secondary "backdoor" into the Citadel one the Reapers hoped to use in order to decapitate the galactic leadership and seize control of the relay network. Once that plan was foiled by Shepard they had no reason to try and 'sneak attack' the galaxy as all their contingency plans to trigger the standard harvest of the Milky Way were nullified. As for why they didn't just bum rush the Citadel in ME 3, well that's more of BioWare's pelting of everyone with the idiot ball than anything really. The indoctrination issue is easily answered by Saren and Codex entries explaining that there was both an 'active' and 'passive' form of Reaper influence. Mental barriers could be broken down in the span of few hours to days but that would leave the resulting victim as little more than a meat puppet; requiring active Reaper control to function. Slower, more subtle indoctrination allowed for the potential pawn to retain a semblance of free will and independent thought; making them much more suitable for agents and spies. Knowing this, the Salarians were subject to an active form of indoctrination that effectively broke their minds, while Saren, Benezia, and the Asari commandos were deemed useful and only had passive levels of indoctrination, over a longer period. And the Thorian is only ever shown producing the thrall "lookalikes" when Shepard is close to discovering it's lair and when he/she is attacking it. Knowing this, it is likely to assume that these are a defense mechanism of the Thorian. As for Shealia, she was obviously chosen to act as the mouthpiece of the the fungoid alien so we can logically assume that it copied her appearance for the means of expediency. Dragon's Teeth are a Reaper creation, and employ nanite conversion to create thralls. This differs from the Remnant vault's use of the same term in that the victims have to be impaled, alive or not, on a power source/container for said naites. And the conversion process takes place over several hours or days; not instantaneously and certainly not on a planetary scale. You are right that ME 1 & 2 did have elements of space magic to them. But they were easily outnumbered by grounded, scientific explanations of how the setting operated. Later titles like the last half of ME 3 and nearly all of Andromeda rely on "rule of cool" and "mysterious reasons" to explain how crazy, nonsensical things happen.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 22, 2019 2:33:58 GMT
Vortex13 No, if you want to put the blame on a game for the reliance of Space Magic or Rule of Cool, that blame belongs squarely on ME2. Things like the lore being ignored just so people can wear cool or sexy outfits, organizations can can build miraculous things despite their small size, etc all comes from that game. And of course the creme de la creme: the Lazarus Project. The ME3 endings are hard science compared to how much liberty with reality that moment took.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 2:43:04 GMT
Vortex13 No, if you want to put the blame on a game for the reliance of Space Magic or Rule of Cool, that blame belongs squarely on ME2. Things like the lore being ignored just so people can wear cool or sexy outfits, organizations can can build miraculous things despite their small size, etc all comes from that game. And of course the creme de la creme: the Lazarus Project. The ME3 endings are hard science compared to how much liberty with reality that moment took. Oh I agree that ME 2 was the start of the "rule of cool" (see stupid) for Mass Effect. Funnily enough it did coincide with Mac Walters being made head writer... Despite that though, it was obvious that there was at least some people trying to keep the setting at least grounded in reality. But, it's obvious from the state of ME 3's ending (which in no way is anywhere close to scientific) and Andromeda's extremely lax take on previously established rules and laws, of both the setting and the real world, that such people aren't working with them anymore.
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Post by burningcherry on Oct 22, 2019 7:20:53 GMT
For the Reaper/Dark Space question. There is nothing that says that Sovereign was unable to talk to the rest of the mecha-Cthulhus, just that he couldn't open the Citadel relay for them. It's very likely that he was in constant communication with the rest of the Reapers throughout the entirety of Mass Effect 1. As for why the other Reapers didn't make their presence known until the sequels, why would they? They had no reason to assume that this cycle would be any different from the countless ones they've had previously. Their plan hit an unexpected snag, but as far as they were concerned Sovereign was more than enough to correct the issue and usher in the next invasion. […] Furthermore, the Alpha Relay in ME 2 was a secondary "backdoor" into the Citadel one the Reapers hoped to use in order to decapitate the galactic leadership and seize control of the relay network. Once that plan was foiled by Shepard they had no reason to try and 'sneak attack' the galaxy as all their contingency plans to trigger the standard harvest of the Milky Way were nullified. As for why they didn't just bum rush the Citadel in ME 3, well that's more of BioWare's pelting of everyone with the idiot ball than anything really. And why didn't they try the Alpha relay right after Sovereign failed?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 10:56:23 GMT
Explain how a point to point mass relay system only manipulates mass in one direction such that travel is only possible from Ilos to the Citadel and not in reverse. Explain how a mako generates enough initial forward momentum to get them across the entire Milky Way Galaxy even when mass is being manipulated when were are shown that the Normandy must accelerate towards the larger relay to a far greater speed to go from near Earth to Eden Prime (not nearly the distance from Ilos to the Citadel). Explain how a being that can send audible signals across space (that burrow into the minds of organics) but cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space." Explain how there is a defined edge between the galaxy and dark space that cannot just be traversed openly at any point in any direction, but must be access through a relay. (Then from ME2, explain what the Reapers were doing trying to find their way through the Alpha Relay in two years when they eventually managed to enter the galaxy from dark space without said relay in only six months. Explain how a being that can send signals out across space cannot contact its compatriots merely because they are "outside" the galaxy in "dark space.")
Explain how indoctrination converts salarians to mindless husks (but ones who retain their physical appearance) inside a week, but doesn't affect Saren or Shiala or Benezia or any of the Asari commandos the same way... even when they've been exposed to it for a much longer period of time. Explain why the Thorian physically changes the appearance of its thralls to look like husks when part of the appearances of things are that they pantomime a normal existence and how does that transformation actually take place. Explain why merely impaling a human on a spike alive fills them with cybernetic implants.
I think there is plenty of in ME1 and ME2 that is left up to "space magic."
Easy, the Conduit is a smaller scale Mass Relay built by the Protheans rather than the Reapers. Space magic explanations. Scienitificially, how does one reduce mass such that it can only be reduced from one direction... such that from the other direction you still have mass in that same spot. Scientifically, how does the size of mass relay cause this to happen while still enabling vessels to transit the relay at a drastically lower speed. If, as you suggest, the Prothean Mass Relay was more efficient than the Reaper one, why then build in such an inefficiency as "it only works in one direction" - which is what sealed the fate of the scientists because they couldn't return to Ilos via the same point to point mast reduction system from the other direction. Further... scientifically, how are singularities so selective in what mass they choose to reduce such that Liara can throw one and selectively lift enemies from behind a cover barrier just because it's attached to the floor or a wall? Shouldn't the singularity also reduce the mass of the floor or the wall and distort it as well. When a ship travels through mass reduced space (reducing stars and planets in its path for greater than 1500 km around the singularity)... how does the life on those planets feel," Why are they not annihilated and warped apart... but are instead returned to their original state of mass as though nothing happened? Enemies inside a singularity are scrambled like eggs, but planets are returned to their precise orbits dozens of times a day as various ships transit through the relays?
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 11:42:27 GMT
For the Reaper/Dark Space question. There is nothing that says that Sovereign was unable to talk to the rest of the mecha-Cthulhus, just that he couldn't open the Citadel relay for them. It's very likely that he was in constant communication with the rest of the Reapers throughout the entirety of Mass Effect 1. As for why the other Reapers didn't make their presence known until the sequels, why would they? They had no reason to assume that this cycle would be any different from the countless ones they've had previously. Their plan hit an unexpected snag, but as far as they were concerned Sovereign was more than enough to correct the issue and usher in the next invasion. […] Furthermore, the Alpha Relay in ME 2 was a secondary "backdoor" into the Citadel one the Reapers hoped to use in order to decapitate the galactic leadership and seize control of the relay network. Once that plan was foiled by Shepard they had no reason to try and 'sneak attack' the galaxy as all their contingency plans to trigger the standard harvest of the Milky Way were nullified. As for why they didn't just bum rush the Citadel in ME 3, well that's more of BioWare's pelting of everyone with the idiot ball than anything really. And why didn't they try the Alpha relay right after Sovereign failed? Who's to say they didn't? As far as we know the Reapers in dark space could have started to make their move the moment Sovereign died in the first game its just that it took them 2+ years to make it to the Alpha Relay. The Collector ship specifically hunted down the Normandy in the beginning of ME 2 on Reaper orders so its obvious that they were making their presence known at that specific point in time; while also proving that they were in constant communication with Sovereign otherwise how would they have know to target the Normandy?
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 11:59:22 GMT
Easy, the Conduit is a smaller scale Mass Relay built by the Protheans rather than the Reapers. Space magic explanations. Scienitificially, how does one reduce mass such that it can only be reduced from one direction... such that from the other direction you still have mass in that same spot. Scientifically, how does the size of mass relay cause this to happen while still enabling vessels to transit the relay at a drastically lower speed. If, as you suggest, the Prothean Mass Relay was more efficient than the Reaper one, why then build in such an inefficiency as "it only works in one direction" - which is what sealed the fate of the scientists because they couldn't return to Ilos via the same point to point mast reduction system from the other direction. Further... scientifically, how are singularities so selective in what mass they choose to reduce such that Liara can throw one and selectively lift enemies from behind a cover barrier just because it's attached to the floor or a wall? Shouldn't the singularity also reduce the mass of the floor or the wall and distort it as well. When a ship travels through mass reduced space (reducing stars and planets in its path for greater than 1500 km around the singularity)... how does the life on those planets feel," Why are they not annihilated and warped apart... but are instead returned to their original state of mass as though nothing happened? Enemies inside a singularity are scrambled like eggs, but planets are returned to their precise orbits dozens of times a day as various ships transit through the relays? Now you're debating semantics. The use of Ezo and it's "mass effect" on matter is not scientifically explained either, but that was the assumption of how this fictional world operates. Mass distortions from flippant singularities would tear ships and planets apart; that or explode rather violently as they evaporated via Hawking Radiation too but biotics were part of the those same exceptions to the rule of law for the setting. I'm not saying that Mass Effect was ever 100% scientifically accurate, but there's an assumption of suspension of disbelief one agrees to when entering into a fictional setting for the first time. The writer sets the ground rules and we the audience accept it when those rules are outside of what is possible in the real world. It's when those established ground rules are broken, with no obvious explanation, that the internal consistency of the setting begins to break down and things like space magic happens. How can biotics somehow mind control organic creatures if its just a manipulation of mass effect fields? How can Shepard draw health from enemies via Reave? How does the Crucible not completely wipe out everything in the whole Milky Way with its wave? How does Remnant tech magically alter the entire atmosphere one one planet, accommodate for a literal change in planetary orbit on another, and simultaneously impact the flora & fauna of an entire world all within the span of a few seconds? The Conduit was a change to the rules but it was executed only once, at the climax of the game and then never used again. Stuff like the Remnant vaults are used throughout the game and offer no explanation as to how it can suddenly break the established rules of the setting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 12:34:29 GMT
And why didn't they try the Alpha relay right after Sovereign failed? Who's to say they didn't? As far as we know the Reapers in dark space could have started to make their move the moment Sovereign died in the first game its just that it took them 2+ years to make it to the Alpha Relay. The Collector ship specifically hunted down the Normandy in the beginning of ME 2 on Reaper orders so its obvious that they were making their presence known at that specific point in time; while also proving that they were in constant communication with Sovereign otherwise how would they have know to target the Normandy? Why pick that Alpha Relay and take two years to get to it. Why not pick a relay close to the galactic edge and at a point in the sphere closer to them. It only took them 6 months to "find another way" into the galaxy after the Alpha Relay was destroyed Space is space. It's not like the Reapers have to go around the edge of galactic space to reach another relay in dark space to access it. Any relay (and there are a ton of them) near to the galactic edge could serve to connect them to the network that spans throughout the galaxy. It is absolutely unfathomable that the Reapers, who created the network, would have set it up such that only one relay gets them to the Citadel (the statistically crucial point of their starting a harvest) and then put the next available relay to get to the entire galaxy from their space 2 whole years (at 60 LY/year) from that access and then have their third a third access point (again to the entire galaxy) six months away from that access.
If they were constant communication with Sovereign... why didn't they enter the galaxy immediately upon Sovereign's trying to activate the Keepers... just because something was wrong. Why leave Sovereign scrambling around the galaxy for years (according to Vigil) trying to find allies to launch an attack on the Citadel when they could have just come through the Alpha Relay in that time.... and how is all of that not boil down to a "space magic" explanation rather than a scientific one?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 12:36:59 GMT
Space magic explanations. Scienitificially, how does one reduce mass such that it can only be reduced from one direction... such that from the other direction you still have mass in that same spot. Scientifically, how does the size of mass relay cause this to happen while still enabling vessels to transit the relay at a drastically lower speed. If, as you suggest, the Prothean Mass Relay was more efficient than the Reaper one, why then build in such an inefficiency as "it only works in one direction" - which is what sealed the fate of the scientists because they couldn't return to Ilos via the same point to point mast reduction system from the other direction. Further... scientifically, how are singularities so selective in what mass they choose to reduce such that Liara can throw one and selectively lift enemies from behind a cover barrier just because it's attached to the floor or a wall? Shouldn't the singularity also reduce the mass of the floor or the wall and distort it as well. When a ship travels through mass reduced space (reducing stars and planets in its path for greater than 1500 km around the singularity)... how does the life on those planets feel," Why are they not annihilated and warped apart... but are instead returned to their original state of mass as though nothing happened? Enemies inside a singularity are scrambled like eggs, but planets are returned to their precise orbits dozens of times a day as various ships transit through the relays? Now you're debating semantics. The use of Ezo and it's "mass effect" on matter is not scientifically explained either, but that was the assumption of how this fictional world operates. Mass distortions from flippant singularities would tear ships and planets apart; that or explode rather violently as they evaporated via Hawking Radiation too but biotics were part of the those same exceptions to the rule of law for the setting. I'm not saying that Mass Effect was ever 100% scientifically accurate, but there's an assumption of suspension of disbelief one agrees to when entering into a fictional setting for the first time. The writer sets the ground rules and we the audience accept it when those rules are outside of what is possible in the real world. It's when those established ground rules are broken, with no obvious explanation, that the internal consistency of the setting begins to break down and things like space magic happens. How can biotics somehow mind control organic creatures if its just a manipulation of mass effect fields? How can Shepard draw health from enemies via Reave? How does the Crucible not completely wipe out everything in the whole Milky Way with its wave? How does Remnant tech magically alter the entire atmosphere one one planet, accommodate for a literal change in planetary orbit on another, and simultaneously impact the flora & fauna of an entire world all within the span of a few seconds? The Conduit was a change to the rules but it was executed only once, at the climax of the game and then never used again. Stuff like the Remnant vaults are used throughout the game and offer no explanation as to how it can suddenly break the established rules of the setting. It's not semantics. You're the one claiming they don't have "space magic" in ME1. That everything was based on "what if we could manipulate mass." But, they didn't consider how the game manipulates mass selectively... and that is space magic designed that way only to conveniently support their plot and their gameplay. There is no science to it at all... and it's not something that just started in ME2. "Space magic" exists as the primary explanation for everything in ME1. The 'ground rules" as you call them were already starting to be broken within ME1 itself. ME2 and ME3 are no different. The only difference is you're prepared/wanting to make up more excuses for ME1's "space magic" and, as the series progressed, you became less willing to be that forgiving of the house of cards that Bioware started to build with ME1.
I know this sounds accusatory, but what I'm attempting to describe is a more general issue with sci-fi writing... It becomes increasingly difficult as a series progresses for the authors to match their visions for the story with the individual visions and pseudo-scientific explanations that their millions of fans generate themselves in their own heads. Some manage to do it better than Bioware has done, but it is a problem for all of them. The "science' since it's not science is generated more or less on the the fly as the story needs it... so, it's like a house of cards, the taller it gets the more unstable it is. With ME1, Bioware at the start did not think their "science" through far enough and with enough flexibility to accommodate a growing story. If they had thought the story through farther at the start and, at the very least, defined the Reapers and their purpose in the story for at least 3 games, the franchise might have faired better in the long run. Had they not decided to treat the Citadel and the galaxy as a "walled entity" rather than "just space" with dots of mass in it, the series may have had less cumulative "space magic" in it. If the fans could have mentally wiped their expectations clean before Andromeda released, it might have had a better reception.... but what is done, is done. The way forward is forward... and, at this point, it's going to mean more "space magic" overall... or else we just keep spinning our wheels in the same spot (ME3's endings) and go nowhere.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 13:16:48 GMT
Now you're debating semantics. The use of Ezo and it's "mass effect" on matter is not scientifically explained either, but that was the assumption of how this fictional world operates. Mass distortions from flippant singularities would tear ships and planets apart; that or explode rather violently as they evaporated via Hawking Radiation too but biotics were part of the those same exceptions to the rule of law for the setting. I'm not saying that Mass Effect was ever 100% scientifically accurate, but there's an assumption of suspension of disbelief one agrees to when entering into a fictional setting for the first time. The writer sets the ground rules and we the audience accept it when those rules are outside of what is possible in the real world. It's when those established ground rules are broken, with no obvious explanation, that the internal consistency of the setting begins to break down and things like space magic happens. How can biotics somehow mind control organic creatures if its just a manipulation of mass effect fields? How can Shepard draw health from enemies via Reave? How does the Crucible not completely wipe out everything in the whole Milky Way with its wave? How does Remnant tech magically alter the entire atmosphere one one planet, accommodate for a literal change in planetary orbit on another, and simultaneously impact the flora & fauna of an entire world all within the span of a few seconds? The Conduit was a change to the rules but it was executed only once, at the climax of the game and then never used again. Stuff like the Remnant vaults are used throughout the game and offer no explanation as to how it can suddenly break the established rules of the setting. It's not semantics. You're the one claiming they don't have "space magic" in ME1. That everything was based on "what if we could manipulate mass." But, they didn't consider how the game manipulates mass selectively... and that is space magic designed that way only to conveniently support their plot and their gameplay. There is no science to it at all... and it's not something that just started in ME2. "Space magic" exists as the primary explanation for everything in ME1. The 'ground rules" as you call them were already starting to be broken within ME1 itself. ME2 and ME3 are no different. The only difference is you're prepared/wanting to make up more excuses for ME1's "space magic" and, as the series progressed, you became less willing to be that forgiving of the house of cards that Bioware started to build with ME1. Sure, I'm willing to accept ME 1 compared to the later games' take on it because it wasn't as lore breaking in it's use of inconstancies. A one time use, small scale Mass Relay, used as the crux of the initial game's plot? Sure, I'll accept that. But arbitrarily ignoring previously established lore, without any explanations offered? That's just lazy writing. ME 1 might have it's share of Space Magic ™ but it's nowhere close to what ME 3's ending and Andromeda try and get away with. Now, if Andromeda was a wholly different IP, some brand new BioWare creation other than Mass Effect, I wouldn't even blink at the use of the Remnant Vaults or the sudden inclusion of the ODSY drives. But when viewed as a whole, there is far to many consistencies and retcons to view it as anything more than hamfisted attempts at trying to justify "rule of cool" and other poor writing contrivances.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2019 13:20:22 GMT
Who's to say they didn't? As far as we know the Reapers in dark space could have started to make their move the moment Sovereign died in the first game its just that it took them 2+ years to make it to the Alpha Relay. The Collector ship specifically hunted down the Normandy in the beginning of ME 2 on Reaper orders so its obvious that they were making their presence known at that specific point in time; while also proving that they were in constant communication with Sovereign otherwise how would they have know to target the Normandy? Why pick that Alpha Relay and take two years to get to it. Why not pick a relay close to the galactic edge and at a point in the sphere closer to them. It only took them 6 months to "find another way" into the galaxy after the Alpha Relay was destroyed Space is space. It's not like the Reapers have to go around the edge of galactic space to reach another relay in dark space to access it. Any relay (and there are a ton of them) near to the galactic edge could serve to connect them to the network that spans throughout the galaxy. It is absolutely unfathomable that the Reapers, who created the network, would have set it up such that only one relay gets them to the Citadel (the statistically crucial point of their starting a harvest) and then put the next available relay to get to the entire galaxy from their space 2 whole years (at 60 LY/year) from that access and then have their third a third access point (again to the entire galaxy) six months away from that access.
If they were constant communication with Sovereign... why didn't they enter the galaxy immediately upon Sovereign's trying to activate the Keepers... just because something was wrong. Why leave Sovereign scrambling around the galaxy for years (according to Vigil) trying to find allies to launch an attack on the Citadel when they could have just come through the Alpha Relay in that time.... and how is all of that not boil down to a "space magic" explanation rather than a scientific one? Because Reapers are creatures of habit and want to stick to the plan? Because they're arrogant? Etc. I mean if we really want to get down to it then why didn't the Reapers just stay in the galaxy policing everything at the start? That would seem to solve a whole heap of problems for them over using the convoluted method of letting the cycles go about their way wholly unsupervised while the Reapers sleep out in dark space.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 13:50:55 GMT
It's not semantics. You're the one claiming they don't have "space magic" in ME1. That everything was based on "what if we could manipulate mass." But, they didn't consider how the game manipulates mass selectively... and that is space magic designed that way only to conveniently support their plot and their gameplay. There is no science to it at all... and it's not something that just started in ME2. "Space magic" exists as the primary explanation for everything in ME1. The 'ground rules" as you call them were already starting to be broken within ME1 itself. ME2 and ME3 are no different. The only difference is you're prepared/wanting to make up more excuses for ME1's "space magic" and, as the series progressed, you became less willing to be that forgiving of the house of cards that Bioware started to build with ME1. Sure, I'm willing to accept ME 1 compared to the later games' take on it because it wasn't as lore breaking in it's use of inconstancies. A one time use, small scale Mass Relay, used as the crux of the initial game's plot? Sure, I'll accept that. But arbitrarily ignoring previously established lore, without any explanations offered? That's just lazy writing. ME 1 might have it's share of Space Magic ™ but it's nowhere close to what ME 3's ending and Andromeda try and get away with. Now, if Andromeda was a wholly different IP, some brand new BioWare creation other than Mass Effect, I wouldn't even blink at the use of the Remnant Vaults or the sudden inclusion of the ODSY drives. But when viewed as a whole, there is far to many consistencies and retcons to view it as anything more than hamfisted attempts at trying to justify "rule of cool" and other poor writing contrivances. So... here we are... spinning our wheels over ME3's endings and not allowing the franchise to go anywhere. That, IMO, is the tragedy here. Not that Bioware saddled Andromeda with the name of a "closed" and intentionally "ended" franchise... for which the fans are still just so intent on getting a redo of those endings.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 22, 2019 16:42:50 GMT
They did come up with a story. Just not one you liked. Then what’s the story for how the benefactor got the technology? You would not know them, and there is no time to explain
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