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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by biggydx on Sept 17, 2018 19:27:09 GMT
I don't really want to get into the personality or motivations as to why said antagonist IS an antagonist. Instead, I want to propose a gameplay/narrative mechanic regarding how the main antagonist interacts with the player. I think it would be pretty neat if the next games antagonist not only attempted to capitalize on our failures, but also attempted to turn our own companions against us. Let me delve further into this.
Lets say you have a companion who falls along the lines of morally good. Throughout the course of the game, you take a number of morally evil actions that leaves the companion so distrustful and volatile towards you, that they end up leaving your party. Later down the line, the main antagonist comes into contact with said companion, and - through dialogue - are able to either recruit said individual into their ranks; or manipulate them to make your playthrough harder. In some respects, the main antagonist would behave the same way the player does, fulfilling a need of a particular companion in order to have them join their party. This could all pay off towards the end of the main story, where you not only square off against the main villain, but also your former companion(s).
Something else that could be cool is if the antagonist planted spies within the ranks of your ship. In-game, from your existing crew, 2 individuals will be randomly chosen to be the spies (1 non-companion NPC, and 1 companion NPC). Only a handful of NPCs (companion or not) have the potential to be spies, so it's not everyone. Maybe roughly 2/5 of the way through the main campaign, you - and you alone - get an encrypted message from someone stating that they have evidence to suggest that we've got a spy in our mists. You don't know who is working for the antagonist, and you have to suss them out by paying close attention to their responses, taking on small sidequests, and - potentially - garnering their favor in order to help build up their trust towards you. The more estranged this spy feels towards you, the more likely they are to sabotage key objectives you're trying to meet, or potentially sowing discourse between you and the rest of the crew. This would all take place throughout the remainder of your playthrough, up until the final act. You could accuse someone of being a spy, but without clear evidence or a confession, you'd not only set them free to potentially be an enemy you have to fight in the future, but it could also negatively affect your relationship with your other companions. You could tell someone about the message you received, but if you tell it to the wrong NPC, it makes it easier for them to fool you.
It would be a clever way of emboldening players to be more interactive with NPC's, allowing you to learn more about what makes them tick, and how you could potentially exploit those beliefs to find out who's who. The better you are at finding out who the spies are, the less opportunities the main antagonist has at putting you into a compromised position by the end of the campaign; as well as a less shittier ending.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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8,927
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 17, 2018 23:53:15 GMT
I cannot see them going down the route of "random squad members" for that would mean a lot of dialogue and scripting work to make it seem real. Maybe if they have a fixed character being a spy would work on a technical level for then they can plan for that character and their turning on the group and how the group reacts.
The problem with the idea of characters reacting randomly is that they would have to try and fit it into the game and create all kinds of other dialogue for all the other characters to say in reaction. One thing I learned with Andromeda is animations is where the game can fall apart and extra dialogue could cause those problems again. Think of Mass Effect 3 and all the returning characters, a lot of them felt like they were minor impacts on the game because BioWare had to create secondary characters to replace the role of those characters if they were dead. Then they also dumped a lot of exposition on Liara because they probably didn't want to animate multiple characters with all that exposition.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 18, 2018 1:30:13 GMT
That would be very tricky to pull off. First they'd have to spend a lot of resources on a feature some might never experience. Second random diaologe and scripting makes for a whole bunch of potential bugs.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by biggydx on Sept 18, 2018 6:41:16 GMT
I cannot see them going down the route of "random squad members" for that would mean a lot of dialogue and scripting work to make it seem real. Maybe if they have a fixed character being a spy would work on a technical level for then they can plan for that character and their turning on the group and how the group reacts. The problem with the idea of characters reacting randomly is that they would have to try and fit it into the game and create all kinds of other dialogue for all the other characters to say in reaction. One thing I learned with Andromeda is animations is where the game can fall apart and extra dialogue could cause those problems again. Think of Mass Effect 3 and all the returning characters, a lot of them felt like they were minor impacts on the game because BioWare had to create secondary characters to replace the role of those characters if they were dead. Then they also dumped a lot of exposition on Liara because they probably didn't want to animate multiple characters with all that exposition. No, no, no. I mean that they already have a list of NPC's they intend to make for your crew. It's just that 2 members of your crew are randomly selected to be the spies, and even then it's only specific NPC's who can become the spies. For example, 3 of your companions and 3 non-companion NPC's are flagged in the games as potential spies, and the game would randomly select one from each pool every time you start a playthrough. Maybe I need to rephrase that sentence a bit. The dialogue would be crafted to center around specific events along the main storyline, and and animations, choices, and ramifications that come of your decisions only show their impacts within the main campaign. For example, if you built up a strong bond with a companion/spie, to the point of romancing them, at some point in the story they may decide to reveal who they really are. It's kinda like how in previous ME games where, prior to the final act, you and your romance spend a night together. In this case, your romance option would admit to you who they are, and you decide what their fate is.
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helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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helios969
Kamisama
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August 2016
helios969
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Sept 18, 2018 10:48:24 GMT
Cool idea but I don't see a AAA developer investing the necessary resources to do this right. I could see an Indie using this sort of gameplay mechanic in a text-based dialogue system.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Apr 25, 2024 13:24:36 GMT
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,899
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 18, 2018 11:58:17 GMT
I cannot see them going down the route of "random squad members" for that would mean a lot of dialogue and scripting work to make it seem real. Maybe if they have a fixed character being a spy would work on a technical level for then they can plan for that character and their turning on the group and how the group reacts. The problem with the idea of characters reacting randomly is that they would have to try and fit it into the game and create all kinds of other dialogue for all the other characters to say in reaction. One thing I learned with Andromeda is animations is where the game can fall apart and extra dialogue could cause those problems again. Think of Mass Effect 3 and all the returning characters, a lot of them felt like they were minor impacts on the game because BioWare had to create secondary characters to replace the role of those characters if they were dead. Then they also dumped a lot of exposition on Liara because they probably didn't want to animate multiple characters with all that exposition. No, no, no. I mean that they already have a list of NPC's they intend to make for your crew. It's just that 2 members of your crew are randomly selected to be the spies, and even then it's only specific NPC's who can become the spies. For example, 3 of your companions and 3 non-companion NPC's are flagged in the games as potential spies, and the game would randomly select one from each pool every time you start a playthrough. Maybe I need to rephrase that sentence a bit. The dialogue would be crafted to center around specific events along the main storyline, and and animations, choices, and ramifications that come of your decisions only show their impacts within the main campaign. For example, if you built up a strong bond with a companion/spie, to the point of romancing them, at some point in the story they may decide to reveal who they really are. It's kinda like how in previous ME games where, prior to the final act, you and your romance spend a night together. In this case, your romance option would admit to you who they are, and you decide what their fate is. It still means that they have to code every possible situation into the game where that entire pool of potential spies, everyone around them, and the story would need to be fully developed to react to each of those three outcomes. That could take a lot of manpower away from other areas of the game, just like I think the huge amount of dialogue taxed the animators in Mass Effect: Andromeda to the point several really bad animations were missed. Otherwise it then become another issue where people claim "lazy writing" because there wasn't a lot of care put into the situation to make sure it worked out.
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The Emperor Daft Serious
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crutchcricket
CrutchCricket
Mass Effect Trilogy
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 18, 2018 13:58:20 GMT
They probably could do this with crew. With squadmates, it could be a tall order and it might have to be a huge chunk of the story, maybe even an entire act. But it's an interesting idea.
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Basquemercat117
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 182 Likes: 120
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ajew8887
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 18, 2018 19:41:20 GMT
Though i would say this is more of a writing issue above being a mechanic issue i would like to see something like that. In DAI we already see one of your companions not only betraying you but actually being the main bad and the future antagonist. But having it play more of an instant impact on the story in a variety of ways would be dope. i kinda wanted that to happen with Miranda in ME3 where she betrays you useless you got her loyalty and romanced her or something like that.
I cant see bioware quantifying how much they like or dislike you to determine how much they like you such as bioware did in SWTOR for mass effect but i can see it more determined by player choices that are done. Like i said in thee beginning i think it would have to be well written to make it work =.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Apr 25, 2024 13:24:36 GMT
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,899
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 18, 2018 20:20:51 GMT
Though i would say this is more of a writing issue above being a mechanic issue i would like to see something like that. In DAI we already see one of your companions not only betraying you but actually being the main bad and the future antagonist. But having it play more of an instant impact on the story in a variety of ways would be dope. i kinda wanted that to happen with Miranda in ME3 where she betrays you useless you got her loyalty and romanced her or something like that. I cant see bioware quantifying how much they like or dislike you to determine how much they like you such as bioware did in SWTOR for mass effect but i can see it more determined by player choices that are done. Like i said in thee beginning i think it would have to be well written to make it work =. Its a mechanic issue when its three different characters and the game will then determine which one you have angered enough for them to jump ship join the enemy and then rain hell down on you because you forgot to pickup the Eggo's at the grocery store last time you were on the Citadel. If it was Miranda and Miranda only then its been written into the game, but when you start having to deal with variables and then all the alterations that the game needs to acknowledge for it to happen can get messy and that is the mechanic issue when the game has to make a decision based on a series of variables to figure out what to choose. Miranda = Loyal = Stays is one thing Miranda, Tali, Liara and then the different calculations and systems to make sure that the game still works without one of those players or if nobody leaves is different. The OP was talking crew which to me means a character like Joker/Chawkas/STEEVE!!! getting upset because they don't agree with your decisions still means the game would have to figure a way to replace them otherwise you would be missing a pilot/doctor/quartermaster or one of them might have important information to give the protagonist so the game would have to then re-assign the information to another person on the ship and then trigger the proper responses from everyone else.
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Basquemercat117
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 182 Likes: 120
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ajew8887
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 18, 2018 20:45:25 GMT
Though i would say this is more of a writing issue above being a mechanic issue i would like to see something like that. In DAI we already see one of your companions not only betraying you but actually being the main bad and the future antagonist. But having it play more of an instant impact on the story in a variety of ways would be dope. i kinda wanted that to happen with Miranda in ME3 where she betrays you useless you got her loyalty and romanced her or something like that. I cant see bioware quantifying how much they like or dislike you to determine how much they like you such as bioware did in SWTOR for mass effect but i can see it more determined by player choices that are done. Like i said in thee beginning i think it would have to be well written to make it work =. Its a mechanic issue when its three different characters and the game will then determine which one you have angered enough for them to jump ship join the enemy and then rain hell down on you because you forgot to pickup the Eggo's at the grocery store last time you were on the Citadel. If it was Miranda and Miranda only then its been written into the game, but when you start having to deal with variables and then all the alterations that the game needs to acknowledge for it to happen can get messy and that is the mechanic issue when the game has to make a decision based on a series of variables to figure out what to choose. Miranda = Loyal = Stays is one thing Miranda, Tali, Liara and then the different calculations and systems to make sure that the game still works without one of those players or if nobody leaves is different. The OP was talking crew which to me means a character like Joker/Chawkas/STEEVE!!! getting upset because they don't agree with your decisions still means the game would have to figure a way to replace them otherwise you would be missing a pilot/doctor/quartermaster or one of them might have important information to give the protagonist so the game would have to then re-assign the information to another person on the ship and then trigger the proper responses from everyone else. i get that. my only issue is that it needs to be with people who in the story has the most potential of turning on you. i dont want where every person in the game can leave you. for example in MEA if you piss Jaal enough it makes sense why he would leave. but Suvi doesnt have much reason to leave. Miranda does have alot of reason to leave or betray shepard. Garrus.... not o much. Samara has more than ample reason to betray shepard. the reason why i was saying its more of a writing issue is that it has to make sense and be organic for the character betraying the protagonist. and how they conduct the betrayal is important, there are some characters that would just leave, or help the enemy with info, or just straight up try to kill you. its easy to make a mechanic that would allow that but the writing and motivation needs to be there. ok lets look at tali, if you betray her trust multiple times it would make sense for her to leave shepard, or kill herself because of shepards actions. but it wouldnt make sense for her to join the geth or reapers because your approval rating with her is -200 points that triggered a cut scene of her leaving.
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