Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 1, 2018 16:58:42 GMT
In the game Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire, which released earlier this year, there are two tiers of characters in the party (Well, really three). Seven are companions and five in the base game are sidekicks.
Companions are everything you would expect from a Bioware game, fully fleshed out written characters with side quests and some being romance options.
Sidekicks are sort of a step below that. They have some characterization and they comment on some quests, but they have no quests associated with them and aren’t as fleshed out.
After that there are also the custom companions you can recruit from most inns, which can be of any race, gender, or class combination the player desires. They have no dialogue and exist purely for combat purposes (And to play with the character creator options)
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 1, 2018 17:30:48 GMT
I wouldn't mind seeing a system like this for Dragon Age 4, especially if it could be used to broaden the party with more fantastical elements and characters.
For example, maybe the Grand Oak wouldn't fit in as a fully fledged companion, but I could easily see that rhyming Sylvan work as a sidekick character.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 1, 2018 17:55:46 GMT
Sidekicks are sort of a step below that. They have some characterization and they comment on some quests, but they have no quests associated with them and aren’t as fleshed out. After that there are also the custom companions you can recruit from most inns, which can be of any race, gender, or class combination the player desires. They have no dialogue and exist purely for combat purposes (And to play with the character creator options) To me, this just seems like resources taken away from the "real" companions, which I'd prefer not to see. The only benefit I can see to that system is the ability to recruit someone of a needed class, say a mage or something, if you happen to hate (or have RP reasons, etc) for not bringing any of the primary mages. I have RP reasons for not bringing both Anders and Merrill around in DA2. As a rogue, once Bethany was gone, that left me without a mage (well, not really, but I trust my meaning is clear) for Act 2 and all but the climax of Act 3 (and helpfully the story DLC, thank the Maker). That made some situations difficult. This one benefit isn't enough for me.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Oct 1, 2018 18:00:14 GMT
For me personally the roster is too big already. There are still banter convos from DAI that I haven't heard after 4 runs.
So if it dilutes content, no.
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Post by bear on Oct 1, 2018 18:38:47 GMT
If the PC should recruit other characters besides fully fleshed companions like the ones we're used to, I'd prefer they don't be party of the player's party. For the reason Arcadia mentions.. too many comps, too little time and I want to hear their interactions if they have any.
And in PoE, the way I see it, the only point to sidekicks was to collect as many extra defenders for your ship as possible (and give them arquebuses and pistols). Never brought them on quests, because they had nothing interesting to add.
The Pillars of Eternity sidekicks-thing could instead be applied to, for example, the PC being able to recruit special *agents* abit like (but hopefully better than) in DAI. If the DA4 PC is an Inquisition/Nonquisition, that is.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 1, 2018 19:24:54 GMT
In a sense, that was what we had with Dog, right? He had a little dialogue with other party members and the occasional cutscene. So instead of sidekicks, why not bring back animal companions?
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Post by warden on Oct 1, 2018 19:54:11 GMT
Sounds nice but in Pillars of Eternity this "minor" companions have voice acting or not?
because if it's just dialogue that you read, it's normal and can be done, otherwise and with BioWare giving a voice to every single character and etcetera, there is no chance it can't be done as they will ran out of money.
And by last statements I see them wasting more resources and effort and time with the famous live services than anything else.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 1, 2018 20:10:32 GMT
Sounds nice but in Pillars of Eternity this "minor" companions have voice acting or not? because if it's just dialogue that you read, it's normal and can be done, otherwise and with BioWare giving a voice to every single character and etcetera, there is no chance it can't be done as they will ran out of money. And by last statements I see them wasting more resources and effort and time with the famous live services than anything else. They have voiced dialogue
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Post by warden on Oct 1, 2018 20:14:18 GMT
Sounds nice but in Pillars of Eternity this "minor" companions have voice acting or not? because if it's just dialogue that you read, it's normal and can be done, otherwise and with BioWare giving a voice to every single character and etcetera, there is no chance it can't be done as they will ran out of money. And by last statements I see them wasting more resources and effort and time with the famous live services than anything else. They have voiced dialogue I see, thanks for the info.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 1, 2018 20:27:42 GMT
For me personally the roster is too big already. There are still banter convos from DAI that I haven't heard after 4 runs. So if it dilutes content, no. My thoughts, exactly. While DA2 is my least favourite DA game, two companions per class was the sweet spot for me. It was a bit of a pain having warrior and rogue companions limited to their set weapon style...I liked playing Double Daggers Hawke, but my favourite companion was Isabela... It still worked, but it certainly wasn't optimal. In a sense, that was what we had with Dog, right? He had a little dialogue with other party members and the occasional cutscene. So instead of sidekicks, why not bring back animal companions? Definitely this, for me anyway. The little cutscenes were a nice touch, useful for exploration (finding random stuff, including if I recall correctly, a really good helmet in the Deep Roads) and a nice bit of extra tanking/crowd control for a party setup that might be light on those areas. The second part, of course, assumes that those things will be present in DA4 (which I'm not at all confident they will).
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 1, 2018 21:06:15 GMT
Ditto to the earlier commenters who want a small roster.
I want to be forced to make tough choices in order to run with a certain party composition. It leads me to experience different combat playstyles, different viewpoints, or both.
If I have tons of options for how to compose my party, I never have to run with challenging people or unusual party comps. So I’m probably going to gravitate toward the comfortable options. And I suspect that’s most players’ impulse — stick to what’s safe, stick to what’s comfortable, and make their own experience more boring on accident.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 1, 2018 21:34:57 GMT
Ditto to the earlier commenters who want a small roster. I want to be forced to make tough choices in order to run with a certain party composition. It leads me to experience different combat playstyles, different viewpoints, or both. If I have tons of options for how to compose my party, I never have to run with challenging people or unusual party comps. So I’m probably going to gravitate toward the comfortable options. And I suspect that’s most players’ impulse — stick to what’s safe, stick to what’s comfortable, and make their own experience more boring on accident. The one comment I'd throw out in favour of the DAI model of companion roster is that it allows a player to run a "single class" party, i.e. 4 mages or 4 warriors or 4 rogues. I'm sure the population of that player-group would be relatively small, but it allows a 'freedom'. Whether or not that freedom is worth the price of "less" of each individual companion is another matter.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 1, 2018 22:25:53 GMT
I'm pretty sure Sidekicks in Deafire were potential Companions who, for whatever reasons, didn't make the final cut. Indeed, one of the missed stretch goals was to make Ydwin a full Companion. I've long suspected that it was a similar situation with many of Inquisition's agents and DAMP heroes, as I think characters like Dagna, Amund the Skywatcher, Tamar, Korbin and/or Michel de Chevin could have made interesting party members.
I like this idea, since it would expand our roleplaying and combat creativity. As far as their lesser presence, Michel and Skywatcher were already involved in their respective areas, and even had unique dialogue for different party members. Dragon Age 4 Agents who join our party like PoE Sidekicks could be NPCs could be characters who already have quest parts to play, if we so choose.
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Post by Pokemario on Oct 1, 2018 22:45:46 GMT
I found myself never really using sidekicks in Deadfire, so no.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 1, 2018 22:49:31 GMT
No, leave that shit to Batman.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 1, 2018 23:50:12 GMT
make their own experience more boring on accident I object to this phrasing. If I want to stick with a comp I like, who are you to say it's "boring" simply because it makes me happy to play that way? I didn't run without a mage in DA2 (in fact, usually ran with only 2/3 party members) because it was exciting; but because my RP (and personal preference for characters) demanded it. I tend to keep the same party comp throughout the game, based solely on the characters I like and want to run with. I don't care to try something new or different just because it is new or different. The might be boring to you, but it is not to me; it is simply how I want to play. I really don't care that I miss the majority of the banter in the game because of this, or any other shortcomings you might suggest.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 1, 2018 23:53:33 GMT
I'm sure the population of that player-group would be relatively small, but it allows a 'freedom'. Whether or not that freedom is worth the price of "less" of each individual companion is another matter. This depends on the restraints of the game. In DAI, this means not being able to bash (no warrior), open locks (no rogue), or use veilfire (no mages). If those restrictions are just for extra goodies, I'm totally fine with that. If they're for plot-necessary things, you're forced into bringing one of whatever required class. I'm definitely in support of the "more freedom" camp.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 2, 2018 1:00:40 GMT
make their own experience more boring on accident I object to this phrasing. If I want to stick with a comp I like, who are you to say it's "boring" simply because it makes me happy to play that way? I didn't run without a mage in DA2 (in fact, usually ran with only 2/3 party members) because it was exciting; but because my RP (and personal preference for characters) demanded it. I tend to keep the same party comp throughout the game, based solely on the characters I like and want to run with. I don't care to try something new or different just because it is new or different. The might be boring to you, but it is not to me; it is simply how I want to play. I really don't care that I miss the majority of the banter in the game because of this, or any other shortcomings you might suggest. I’m not too worried about missing banter, I think that leaves more to discover in the next playthrough. I’m also not suggesting forced party rotation. What I’m suggesting is tradeoffs. Probably the most intense example is Anders in DA2. For non-mage players, he’s the only available healer for the bulk of the game. So even though many people disagreed with him, they made the tradeoff to keep him anyway. People who very strongly disagreed with him made a different tradeoff — to relinquish their only healer for much of the game. Far from removing choices, these kinds of tradeoffs heighten choices. In the same way that many quests have hard decisions, even party comp has situations that don’t always result in one totally satisfying answer. For that reason, I see those tradeoffs as very in tune with the rest of the setting.
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Post by isaidlunch on Oct 2, 2018 5:43:12 GMT
Sidekicks are only needed when the main companions suck, which they unfortunately did in Deadfire. As much as I like Ydwin and Rekke, I wouldn't have used them if any of the companions were even remotely interesting.
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 2, 2018 6:30:26 GMT
For me personally the roster is too big already. There are still banter convos from DAI that I haven't heard after 4 runs. So if it dilutes content, no. For the love of the God-Emperor, this. Nine companions were too much for me, especially if they stick to their current way of companion content distribution known as "do a main quest, make the rounds". I'd be happy if the number of companions would be lowered to six and while they're at it, make the player's base smaller too. I didn't like having to run all around Skyhold to talk to nine companions, hoping they'd say something interesting. There's lots of banter I didn't hear either, because they never managed to fix a timer that plays audio files. /cranky +1
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 2, 2018 10:57:50 GMT
For me personally the roster is too big already. There are still banter convos from DAI that I haven't heard after 4 runs. So if it dilutes content, no. For the love of the God-Emperor, this. Nine companions were too much for me, especially if they stick to their current way of companion content distribution known as "do a main quest, make the rounds". I'd be happy if the number of companions would be lowered to six and while they're at it, make the player's base smaller too. I didn't like having to run all around Skyhold to talk to nine companions, hoping they'd say something interesting. There's lots of banter I didn't hear either, because they never managed to fix a timer that plays audio files. /cranky +1 Here’s a thought though: What if they did lower the number of companions to 6, allowing them to be more fleshed out and have more content, but filled out three more spots with sidekicks?
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 2, 2018 11:49:25 GMT
Here’s a thought though: What if they did lower the number of companions to 6, allowing them to be more fleshed out and have more content, but filled out three more spots with sidekicks? Fine with me Add the option to talk to your guys in the field again instead of keeping all the conversations in the home base and I'm happy.
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Post by wickedcool on Oct 2, 2018 12:55:21 GMT
I would like something like this
Flesh out the trainers- you gave them voice acting how about a side quest after we do all the required steps
Would have been cool to see Barris again after a then than war table missions. Would be nice to have been given the option to join in
The elf mage in the hinterlands- has a backstory in masked empire and we help her clear a tiny temple-could have been a side kick
A dog should be in next game
There were way 2 many people especially in skyhold that resources were spent on and consolidation would have been better. In skyhold we have a dwarf bartender and one that talks about mosaics. No offense to dwarf fans(me included) but resources were spent on 2 characters that add nothing. Could have had the bartender talk about mosaics etc
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 2, 2018 13:27:21 GMT
I think a form of the sidekick mechanic could be used to give us a continuing reactivity to our choices; something akin to the Final Battle of Ferelden in Origins but across the entire game.
Being able to call in dalish archers or a pack of ravenous werewolves, dwarven warriors or a mighty golem, and mages or templars for the climatic battle; all dependent on your decisions throughout the game? No other recent BioWare title has come close to having that level of reactivity to player choice showcased in-game. Even Mass Effect 3, which was the culmination of an entire trilogy, could only manage a tiny cutscene that had no bearing on the outcome of the game. Cure the Genophage? Make peace with the Quarians and Geth? Do neither of those things? Doesn't matter, the final battle for Earth plays out the same regardless.
Origins, on the other hand, had the player collecting allies and forming allegiances over the course of the campaign, and then culminates in those decisions being reflected, not only in minor cinematic nods, but with in-game representation as well (and all of this despite being the first game of a series). Inquisition was a let down in this area, as outside of one particular set of cutscenes at haven, in how you close the Breach, nothing about your generic inquisition forces changes to reflect the choices you make. But what if we had a version of the sidekick system that would keep track of our play through and would dynamically change out certain NPCs and min-companions depending on how we handled things?
Talk to that Sylvan and fulfill it's quest rather than just kill it? You have a Sylvan outside of your base now that will help you in your battles, or defend your holdings. Did you employ the use of a ruthless gang of cutthroats to accomplish your goals in the city, rather than waste time with the authorities? Well, you now have said gang setting up shop in your castle, offering their services to you in battle. Etc.
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Post by helios969 on Oct 3, 2018 9:46:21 GMT
I don't particularly care what the number is provided they are interesting and fully fleshed out characters. Part of me thinks DAI had too many but the counterargument is it allowed us to fill our party with the types of characters we enjoyed and/or could roleplay with...and reducing to six (which numerically I do think is the sweet spot) doesn't guarantee those companions are fleshed out, interesting, and/or fit well within certain roleplays. MEA largely failed in this regard because outside Drack I found the companions for the most part boring and uninteresting, or just plain annoying. DAI at least allowed me to ignore Vivienne, Blackwall, and more often than not Solas and still have a good party composition and companions to interact with.
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