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Post by biggydx on Jan 16, 2019 17:35:11 GMT
tl;dr: The MMO-lite genre is rife with controversy and player stigma. While these games can ultimately improve, become great, and win back the hearts of their more dedicated fanbase, games releasing in this genre are often criticized for being: unpolished, having mediocre story campaigns, having a lack of content, employing greedy MTX schemes, and create too much uncertainty to justify their initial purchase (or continued content).
With Anthem being roughly a month away from release (sooner for early access), people are deciding whether or not the game is worth the time and money. Due to the games association with EA, and BioWare to a lesser extent, it has ultimately pushed people into taking a precautionary stance on their position to purchase (or try) Anthem. Outside of this group are people who either generally lack interest in the game, or are receptive to what's been shown so far. However, another aspect that makes a sizable portion of the player population hesitant about Anthem is the genre in which it inhabits. It goes by many names, such as: Shared-World, Persistent-only experience, MMO-lite. Generally, it's a gaming genre that seeks to incorporate various elements of the standard MMO genre (such as large player parties, dungeons, raids, and factions) into another existing genre; like Third-person or First-person shooters. Additional design elements can also be added into the genre as well, such as hack-and-slash (ex. Warframe), or Looter-shooter (ex. Borderlands).
The MMO-lite genre has been growing in size, in terms of the number of games within it, but has also brought along numerous controversies with it. One of the biggest games to release in the genre was Destiny, a game that's been marred by numerous controversies; including:
- The lack of a cohesive story and interesting characters - A lack of communication on behalf of the developers with their playerbase; regarding gameplay mechanics and systems - Too much attention placed on the Microtransaction (MTX) store for the obtainment of cosmetic items - A lack of content - The necessity to pay hundreds of dollars in order to stay relevant with the games content updates - Too much of a grind, or too much repetitive gameplay
Though Bungie and the Destiny franchise have improved their image recently, these same criticisms have been indicative of other games in the genre as well. The Division experienced similar complaints over the lack of a compelling narrative and characters. In addition, people complained that the game lacked endgame content, and that many of the games elite AI enemies were too bullet-spongy (i.e. Took too long to kill). Warframe, upon release, was criticized as having a lack of early-game direction, requiring an exorbitant grind (including real-world time), and a lack of a story to drive player initiative. Both The Division and Warframe have gone through numerous updates and fixes in order to address these problems, making them more respectable games.
Despite improvements to how players perceive each of the aforementioned titles, the genre has become negatively associated with the word, "unfinished," by many who look at them. The term, Live-Service or Games as a Service, have been used repeatedly in describing the content delivery process for these games. This terminology, and the lack of polish in the release state of these games, has garnered a stigma among the player populace. There's a fear that, by buying these games, you're pretty much purchasing the "beta-version" of it; which wont be fleshed and polished until months later. In terms of Anthem, this is a common statement muttered by those commenting on various videos and forums associated with it:
"I'm gonna wait a month or two to see how the game develops" "I'll wait till the game goes on sale and they've actually put more content into the game" "Why would I waste my money on something that's probably unpolished and wont have any content?"
Admittedly, some of these statements are also due in part to recent practices by AAA publishers, who have released MTX's after the review stage of their published title releasing; avoiding any negative attention the game would receive for having said MTX's.
It is important to point out that, unlike most other MMO's, MMO-lite games are largely console-based. In addition, these games also don't charge a subscription fee for their product; instead relying on paid DLC and MTX's for persistent revenue. Considering that console players already have to pay ~$60 for their console platforms online service, as well as many MMO-lite games being online-only, these players are unlikely to want to pay a subscription fee. At the same time, players want these games to have a breath of content (akin to a standard MMO), with updates to the game on a short cadence; roughly 3-6 months. In many respects, developers are unable to handle this type of workload, as Bungie had to employ the services of Activisions two supporting studios (Vicarious Visions and High Moon Studios) in order to create all the DLC content a year after Destiny 2 released.
None of this is to say that a game released in this genre can't be well made; or end up that way. Many of the developers in this genre have showcased that they're capable of improving the titles they've worked on, such as Digital Extremes with Warframe and Massive Entertainment with The Division. Bungie recently split from Activision, and many see this as a cause for positive speculation as to the well being of the Destiny franchise. BioWare is hoping that Anthem is able to address many of the concerns I listed previously, and they've been fairly transparent as to how they've fleshed out the game. In addition, they plan on releasing a full-fledged demo towards the end of January, and early February. This actions afford players the opportunity to make up their own mind about the title, and decide if it's for them or not.
My question to you all is this:
Do you guys think that this genre is able to produce worthwhile products, or do you believe games under its flag (including Anthem) are always doomed to sizable criticism and flaws upon release?
Should we expect more from games within the genre?
When a game in this genre releases, and is lackluster, who's more to blame: The developer/publisher, the player population (unrealistic expectations), or the genre itself? Or is it a combination?
Will the genre ultimately become a short-term fad, or do you foresee it becoming even more popular as the years go on?
Do you see Anthem doing anything that looks to break the mold in the MMO-lite genre?
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Post by giubba on Jan 16, 2019 18:15:57 GMT
tl;dr: The MMO-lite genre is rife with controversy and player stigma. While these games can ultimately improve, become great, and win back the hearts of their more dedicated fanbase, games releasing in this genre are often criticized for being: unpolished, having mediocre story campaigns, having a lack of content, employing greedy MTX schemes, and create too much uncertainty to justify their initial purchase (or continued content).With Anthem being roughly a month away from release (sooner for early access), people are deciding whether or not the game is worth the time and money. Due to the games association with EA, and BioWare to a lesser extent, it has ultimately pushed people into taking a precautionary stance on their position to purchase (or try) Anthem. Outside of this group are people who either generally lack interest in the game, or are receptive to what's been shown so far. However, another aspect that makes a sizable portion of the player population hesitant about Anthem is the genre in which it inhabits. It goes by many names, such as: Shared-World, Persistent-only experience, MMO-lite. Generally, it's a gaming genre that seeks to incorporate various elements of the standard MMO genre (such as large player parties, dungeons, raids, and factions) into another existing genre; like Third-person or First-person shooters. Additional design elements can also be added into the genre as well, such as hack-and-slash (ex. Warframe), or Looter-shooter (ex. Borderlands). The MMO-lite genre has been growing in size, in terms of the number of games within it, but has also brought along numerous controversies with it. One of the biggest games to release in the genre was Destiny, a game that's been marred by numerous controversies; including: - The lack of a cohesive story and interesting characters - A lack of communication on behalf of the developers with their playerbase; regarding gameplay mechanics and systems - Too much attention placed on the Microtransaction (MTX) store for the obtainment of cosmetic items - A lack of content - The necessity to pay hundreds of dollars in order to stay relevant with the games content updates - Too much of a grind, or too much repetitive gameplay As far as i know these were the problems that destiny faced and not the other games that you listed below I think that most of these problems come from the fact that this genre is a mix of so many different types of game that on the plus side tend to attract a lot of players that have wildly different preferences and come from wildly different games but on the con side this mix tend to never focus on any particular element that compose it resulting in a harder time retaining their player base Again imho this comes from players that haven't the slightest idea of certain elements that comes from genres that have little to 0 experience. For making a more pertinent example months ago here in the forum we passed several weeks of fear mongering about the multiplayer aspect of Anthem because a lot of people had experience that were outdated,not very expansive or simply didn't have it at all. And it was pretty normal because it came from people who never played MMORPG or other MMO-lite games but they were nevertheless intrigued by some aspect of anthem. This is a far more complex and wildly different topic, it's centered around the today economics of the gaming industry. it's a worthwhile discussion but it need a proper place This is strictly due to bungie grossly underestimating the workload and production time needed for this kind of games.It's self evident in their hardship in keeping the contract milestones they established with activions Of course the genre at large is capable of creating a worthwhile products but at the moments 2 things should happen. First players shouldn't play these games like a pure MMO/FPS/TPS/Hack'nSlash/RPG because they will never find the same level of details that they could get in their counterpart. Second dev teams should try to lower the number of genre that mix in the pot when they makes this type of games
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 16, 2019 19:06:24 GMT
From the start, Mark Darrah and Mike Gamble were highlighting that this sub-genre had not yet successfully overcome some of the flaws listed in the OP. Flaws that BioWare was keen to attempt to resolve.
Right now, I'm hopeful. It will require Anthem to be a 'bar raise' in this sub-genre. The proof is in the pudding.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 16, 2019 19:42:04 GMT
As far as i know these were the problems that destiny faced and not the other games that you listed below Some of those criticisms weren't felt till down the line. A month or so after The Division released, people weren't satisfied with the lack of endgame content. Massive Entertainment ended up having to add daily and weekly challenges to the game in order to have something for players to grind for. They did release Incursions (which was their version of raids) several months after, but many of them weren't received well. As for MTX's, those came some time down the line (don't remember the patch). The pricing for the cosmetics that were tied to those MTX's were pretty pricey. Having played The Division myself, there wasn't really a strong narrative presented outright (during the campaign). However, the audio logs you could pick up did help to flesh out the game world. Again imho this comes from players that haven't the slightest idea of certain elements that comes from genres that have little to 0 experience. For making a more pertinent example months ago here in the forum we passed several weeks of fear mongering about the multiplayer aspect of Anthem because a lot of people had experience that were outdated,not very expansive or simply didn't have it at all. And it was pretty normal because it came from people who never played MMORPG or other MMO-lite games but they were nevertheless intrigued by some aspect of anthem. I absolutely think that players pre-conceived notions of a particular genre, or game (Anthem in this case), can muddy their expectations of it. One of the more common complaints I've seen regarding Anthem is that the gameplay is repetitive. While there is bound to be repetition, this is indicative of the style of game it is - generally - setting out to be: A loot based game with RPG elements. As you said, I think there's a disconnect for people who don't play games in this genre. The question shouldn't necessarily be, is this a bad aspect of the genre? Rather, it should be a matter of whether you're still able to have fun during that repetition, and is that person criticizing the game/genre simply not interested in it? To some extent, it's kinda funny. People play Pokemon, but no one vocalizes how the game is just a repetitive cycle of: Capture Pokemon, level up Pokemon, beat Gym leader, earn badge, repeat. Hell, I put 1400hrs into ME3 MP. Game was repetitive as hell, but it always remained fun for us on that side of the community. This is strictly due to bungie grossly underestimating the workload and production time needed for this kind of games.It's self evident in their hardship in keeping the contract milestones they established with activions Yeah, I don't think their contractual obligations were tenable for any studio. It's strange because, to some extent, their busy content release schedule has also shifted player beliefs regarding how frequently content should roll out for games in this genre. Though, admittedly, this is vocalized by the hardcore crowd, the pressure felt ends up forcing devs to have to work on stop gaps to keep people satisfied. This can ultimately lead to content being mediocre, especially in Bungies case when it came to their DLC's narrative elements. Whats funny about their recent split, is while it does present opportunities for better content, it also means said content may release even slower than normal.
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Post by giubba on Jan 16, 2019 20:45:32 GMT
As far as i know these were the problems that destiny faced and not the other games that you listed below Some of those criticisms weren't felt till down the line. A month or so after The Division released, people weren't satisfied with the lack of endgame content. Massive Entertainment ended up having to add daily and weekly challenges to the game in order to have something for players to grind for. They did release Incursions (which was their version of raids) several months after, but many of them weren't received well. As for MTX's, those came some time down the line (don't remember the patch). The pricing for the cosmetics that were tied to those MTX's were pretty pricey. Having played The Division myself, there wasn't really a strong narrative presented outright (during the campaign). However, the audio logs you could pick up did help to flesh out the game world. Again imho this comes from players that haven't the slightest idea of certain elements that comes from genres that have little to 0 experience. For making a more pertinent example months ago here in the forum we passed several weeks of fear mongering about the multiplayer aspect of Anthem because a lot of people had experience that were outdated,not very expansive or simply didn't have it at all. And it was pretty normal because it came from people who never played MMORPG or other MMO-lite games but they were nevertheless intrigued by some aspect of anthem. I absolutely think that players pre-conceived notions of a particular genre, or game (Anthem in this case), can muddy their expectations of it. One of the more common complaints I've seen regarding Anthem is that the gameplay is repetitive. While there is bound to be repetition, this is indicative of the style of game it is - generally - setting out to be: A loot based game with RPG elements. As you said, I think there's a disconnect for people who don't play games in this genre. The question shouldn't necessarily be, is this a bad aspect of the genre? Rather, it should be a matter of whether you're still able to have fun during that repetition, and is that person criticizing the game/genre simply not interested in it? To some extent, it's kinda funny. People play Pokemon, but no one vocalizes how the game is just a repetitive cycle of: Capture Pokemon, level up Pokemon, beat Gym leader, earn badge, repeat. Hell, I put 1400hrs into ME3 MP. Game was repetitive as hell, but it always remained fun for us on that side of the community. This is strictly due to bungie grossly underestimating the workload and production time needed for this kind of games.It's self evident in their hardship in keeping the contract milestones they established with activions Yeah, I don't think their contractual obligations were tenable for any studio. It's strange because, to some extent, their busy content release schedule has also shifted player beliefs regarding how frequently content should roll out for games in this genre. Though, admittedly, this is vocalized by the hardcore crowd, the pressure felt ends up forcing devs to have to work on stop gaps to keep people satisfied. This can ultimately lead to content being mediocre, especially in Bungies case when it came to their DLC's narrative elements. Whats funny about their recent split, is while it does present opportunities for better content, it also means said content may release even slower than normal. Switched to taptalk so cannot be too much eloquent. As you say Anthem gameplay will be at 99% centered around repetitive experiences like running missions,complete daily weekly monthly goals like any MMO or hack'n slash like diablo. It's bad for the genre? I do not think so, in this particular case the fault lies with gamers that must adapt to what expect from games of this category. For the production cycle I think that's self evident that devs should treat game like this as MMO, problem is you cannot improvise yourself MMO developers at your pleasure you need a particular experience that you must nurture working on MMOs not simple multiplayer games thus all the problem for bungie creating additional content for destiny. Also if we take the quality of the DLC produced until now for all these kind of games is again evident that's better focusing on big expansion like in MMOs with let's say a yearly cadence peppered with free updates that introduces smaller and easier to produce content. And lastly another big mistake that literally everybody did was treating these game like normal titles creating separate games (destiny 1 and 2, the division 1 and 2 etc.) Instead on focusing on BUILDING their world creating each "new game" on top of the other
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 16, 2019 23:47:46 GMT
tl;dr: The MMO-lite genre is rife with controversy and player stigma. While these games can ultimately improve, become great, and win back the hearts of their more dedicated fanbase, games releasing in this genre are often criticized for being: unpolished, having mediocre story campaigns, having a lack of content, employing greedy MTX schemes, and create too much uncertainty to justify their initial purchase (or continued content).(SNIP) ... My question to you all is this:Do you guys think that this genre is able to produce worthwhile products, or do you believe games under its flag (including Anthem) are always doomed to sizable criticism and flaws upon release?
Should we expect more from games within the genre?
When a game in this genre releases, and is lackluster, who's more to blame: The developer/publisher, the player population (unrealistic expectations), or the genre itself? Or is it a combination?
Will the genre ultimately become a short-term fad, or do you foresee it becoming even more popular as the years go on?Do you see Anthem doing anything that looks to break the mold in the MMO-lite genre? 1. Yeah I have had plenty of fun playing Destiny 1 and 2 and Warframe. Didn't put enough time into Division to really comment. At the same time I think Anthem is going to be analyzed under a microscope and has an uphill battle ahead of it after ME:A. The people that hated MEA might be hyper critical because they feel that Bioware released a bad game. The people that loved MEA, like me, might be wary due to a feeling of Bioware abandoning MEA outright. There are potentially sore feelings all around. Combine this with general animosity towards EA and well, I would be nervous if I was launching this game.
2. I think these games need to figure out a middle ground for generating revenue that makes them ongoing money and doesn't piss people off too much. That way the game can continuously improve because players want the game to continuously improve. They also want new stuff to do. Warframe only consistently improves because it is raking in cash. The entire game is overflowing with stuff for players to buy (and it ain't all cosmetic), and while savvy players can and do get by earning platinum within the game, there are plenty that spend large amounts of money on Warframe.
3. If the game is lackluster I don't really think you can blame that on the players. They are spending money, not making the game. Hopefully Bioware's cosmetics are awesome enough to generate enough extra income to convince EA to allow them to keep improving the game and adding new content.
4. I think the genre is past the short term fad stage already. I also think there is room for more games like this. Competition will make the games better. Warframe has a crazy headstart.
5. Not sure if I see anything Anthem is doing as 'breaking the mold' but I am hoping they are adding some Bioware goodness to the 'refinement of the mold'. Having a stronger solo story I see as refinement. Completely ignoring PvP feels them making a hardline choice on where to focus their attention.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 16, 2019 23:51:12 GMT
And lastly another big mistake that literally everybody did was treating these game like normal titles creating separate games (destiny 1 and 2, the division 1 and 2 etc.) Instead on focusing on BUILDING their world creating each "new game" on top of the other Warframe just keeps building on the existing base, creating an ever larger and more feature rich experience. It could easily have been called Warframe 3 by now.
I keep talking about Warframe because they are doing a lot of things right, at least by their fans, and if Bioware is smart they will pay attention to DE and Warframe and not Destiny. Warframe is a more intelligent model for this kind of game.
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Post by Frost on Jan 17, 2019 1:28:23 GMT
Do you guys think that this genre is able to produce worthwhile products, or do you believe games under its flag (including Anthem) are always doomed to sizable criticism and flaws upon release? I am doubtful that this genre could produce worthwhile products because at its core it is created around mtx and repetitive play. When a game in this genre releases, and is lackluster, who's more to blame: The developer/publisher, the player population (unrealistic expectations), or the genre itself? Or is it a combination? If the game releases in a lackluster state, that is on the developer/publisher. Even if the genre is at fault, it was the developer/publisher that decided to make a game in that genre. Will the genre ultimately become a short-term fad, or do you foresee it becoming even more popular as the years go on? Fad. How many games of this type can be in the market and still make the huge profits the publishers want? As soon as the large profits from this type of game are less certain, publishers will move on to the next big thing (as they did with MMOs).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 18, 2019 0:10:03 GMT
I reject the premise. Anthem is not an mmo-lite, if we are defining mmo-lite as games with all that predatory baggage. Putting Anthem, and Destiny for that matter, in the same box as Sea Of Thieves is worse than pointless, it’s misleading.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 18, 2019 0:37:54 GMT
I reject the premise. Anthem is not an mmo-lite, if we are defining mmo-lite as games with all that predatory baggage. Putting Anthem, and Destiny for that matter, in the same box as Sea Of Thieves is worse than pointless, it’s misleading. How would you classify Anthem?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 18, 2019 5:56:55 GMT
I reject the premise. Anthem is not an mmo-lite, if we are defining mmo-lite as games with all that predatory baggage. Putting Anthem, and Destiny for that matter, in the same box as Sea Of Thieves is worse than pointless, it’s misleading. How would you classify Anthem? It's a loot shooter. A sub-genre (or perhaps, overlapping genre) of mmo-lite, but again, Anthem has more in common with other loot shooters (Destiny, Warframe) than it does with Sea of Thieves or Maple Story 2.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 18, 2019 11:17:31 GMT
How would you classify Anthem? It's a loot shooter. A sub-genre (or perhaps, overlapping genre) of mmo-lite, but again, Anthem has more in common with other loot shooters (Destiny, Warframe) than it does with Sea of Thieves or Maple Story 2. But Borderlands is a looter shooter, and it belongs nowhere in the same vicinity as Destiny, Division, Warframe and Anthem. I think we can all agree that whatever the genre is, those 4 games are essentially it for right now. Shared-world shooter is the accepted industry terminology I believe. They are MMO-like.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 18, 2019 16:51:16 GMT
Yeah Borderlands is a bit more Diablo style (in first person)... which I would have preferred for Anthem (not the first person the game-style) and I hope Anthem leans a bit towards that tendency but the always online no single player mode kind of sets it off that path.
I know people like to refer to Destiny and Division as MMO's and frankly I think it is just semantics. They don't 'feel' massively multiplayer to me but the last real MMO's I actually dug my teeth into were Everquest, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, with a tiny smattering (50 hours or so) of ESO. All of those games feel much more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER than Destiny, or the Division. You just had way more players together in zones at a single time and early Everquest on the pvp servers could get really interesting.
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Post by aznricepuff on Jan 18, 2019 19:01:33 GMT
I think Diablo (3) and Borderlands are the closest cousins you can get to Anthem (and Destiny, Division). They are all games where you kill things to get randomized, progressively better loot, either alone or cooperatively with a small number of other people. The main difference is that Anthem and its cohort tend to emphasize the multiplayer aspect while Diablo and Borderlands don't (though IMO they are a lot more fun to play in coop than by yourself).
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 19, 2019 1:45:01 GMT
I think Diablo (3) and Borderlands are the closest cousins you can get to Anthem (and Destiny, Division). They are all games where you kill things to get randomized, progressively better loot, either alone or cooperatively with a small number of other people. The main difference is that Anthem and its cohort tend to emphasize the multiplayer aspect while Diablo and Borderlands don't (though IMO they are a lot more fun to play in coop than by yourself). I do appreciate that Borderlands and Diablo allow you to play offline by yourself if you so choose.
I actually had more fun, in general, playing Borderlands and Diablo by myself, even though with the right people it 'could' be more fun.
Destiny on the other hand is a game that would have to have a lot of stuff reworked to be made into a solo experience and was absolutely more fun with friends.
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