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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 1:53:01 GMT
Playing the demo for a brief moment today, I have some criticism of the game which is completely subjective (nothing to do with technical shortcomings or anything of that sort) and I would like to bring it here and get other people's opinions.
Firstly, the javelin frame does not change according to the character's gender, something which completely breaks the RPG elements we are used to seeing and I dare say even expecting to see in Bioware games. Now I am not saying this design decision is wrong or right, but I am just saying this is different from how Bioware games have been thus far. Also I reckon that all javelins, while being "gender-less", do look rather masculine, although this is arguably subjective and others may state otherwise. Nonetheless, the argument that javelins are exoskeleton suits (not armor per se) might be a pretty valid point to support their fixed frame, thus I digress.
Secondly, while in Fort Tharssis our protagonist does not wear a javelin. And I thought, well, there should be some sort of character looks customization since Fort Tharssis is meant to be like our "Normandy" or our "Skyhold". However, while in Fort Tharssis you are forced to play in first person view, killing any point of customizing your character's appearance. Still, what your character looks like would matter if other players saw you (like in Borderlands, for example), but then there is the fact that while in Fort Tharssis you are essentially disconnected from other players, and no one sees your character. In fact, at least from what I got playing this demo briefly, I felt that having the first person view while in Fort Tharssis pretty much obscures our character's appearance. I don't know whether this is intentional, but I've felt it is. There is no point in a 3rd person shooter forcing us to play in first person while out of action otherwise (before someone says Destiny forcibly goes from first to third person while in the hub area, well, it is the other way around so that you can see your character appearance and interact with other players, exactly the opposite of Anthem).
It is being said that Anthem, while not your typical Bioware RPG game, would still be rich in RPG elements, but that is not what I have seen.
Anyway, I would like to see what others think regarding these points.
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Post by jayhartric on Jan 26, 2019 2:18:34 GMT
Anthem will have a social hub but it isn't ready yet. Not sure if it is in or out of the suit.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 26, 2019 2:21:51 GMT
Yeah I still don't see the point in FP-POV in the "story" area. And any progress that makes towards immersing us as the character is pretty much wiped away by the freelancer being voiced. Some might counter that "We want our character to be voiced!" is a common refrain from the Destiny crowd, but that's in relation to the cutscenes where you see your character from an outside POV.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 26, 2019 3:15:50 GMT
I'm confused when "RPG" came to mean "character customization and gender selection". Is The Witcher not an RPG? Deus Ex?
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2019 4:14:05 GMT
I think BioWare might be shaking their heads a bit, we want a BioWare RPG, and they've been telling us basically from day 1 that it isn't going to be the same as everything else they've done. I have sympathy for the devs trying something new, intentionally moving away from story and character focus, and their fanbase stubbornly hoping its still an RPG when it was never going to be.
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 4:23:13 GMT
I'm confused when "RPG" came to mean "character customization and gender selection". Is The Witcher not an RPG? Deus Ex? RPG is a very broad term, which can include many games. Some games offer you the choice of creating your own character almost from the scratch (TES games, for instance), others give you a pre-set, existing character for you to assume the role of. Some games offer you several decisions to make which affect the course of the game (such as the titles you've mentioned), others, not so many. Now, are character customization and gender selection intrinsic part of RPGs? Not necessarily. Some RPGs have it as a core element, some don't. Just like some non-RPG games have customization as a pretty relevant element, particularly online looter games like The Division, Destiny and Anthem (yep, Anthem is not a RPG, mind you), and others don't. All that being said, when character customization is a relevant element of a game, particularly on full-priced AAA titles from major publishers, I like to see it properly implemented, and not containing questionable design choices which can be interpret as shortcuts adopted to avoid the extra work.
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 4:32:46 GMT
(...) and their fanbase stubbornly hoping its still an RPG when it was never going to be. The point is not about whether Anthem is a RPG or not - which the answer is that it is not. The points are two, as following: 1) Why do the javelin have the exact same frame for male and female characters? I can tell you that there are games out there which are pure shooters, like Titanfall and Call of Duty, in which male and female body frames look completely different. 2) Why I am forced to a 1st person view when outside of combat? It just feels to me as a decision intentionally made so that I cannot see my own character, apparently for no reason other than, perhaps, saving the extra work which it would take to display the character.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2019 4:34:53 GMT
(...) and their fanbase stubbornly hoping its still an RPG when it was never going to be. The point is not about whether Anthem is a RPG or not - which the answer is that it is not. The points are two, as following: 1) Why do the javelin have the exact same frame for male and female characters? I can tell you that there are games out there which are pure shooters, like Titanfall and Call of Duty, in which male and female body frame look completely different. 2) Why I am forced to a 1st person view when outside of combat? It just feels to me as a decision intentionally made so that I cannot see my own character, apparently for no reason other than, perhaps, saving the extra work which it would take to display the character. because its a hack job of a game chasing an audience that never existed
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 4:42:50 GMT
because its a hack job of a game chasing an audience that never existed I guess there is no other explanation to these design decisions at this point. They just feel as cheap shortcuts to me. (btw, apologies if came across rude, I instantly thought that "stubbornly" was directed at me. I am not sure whether it was or not. Well, maybe it was directed to all of us, really.)
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 26, 2019 4:45:03 GMT
(...) and their fanbase stubbornly hoping its still an RPG when it was never going to be. The point is not about whether Anthem is a RPG or not - which the answer is that it is not. The points are two, as following: 1) Why do the javelin have the exact same frame for male and female characters? Because it's a vehicle, not a character. Did you buy the "female" version Toyota Corolla?
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Post by samhain444 on Jan 26, 2019 4:51:27 GMT
The point is not about whether Anthem is a RPG or not - which the answer is that it is not. The points are two, as following: 1) Why do the javelin have the exact same frame for male and female characters? Because it's a vehicle, not a character. Did you buy the "female" version Toyota Corolla? Yep, this... As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional...
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 4:56:14 GMT
Because it's a vehicle, not a character. Did you buy the "female" version Toyota Corolla? Exactly what I included on my original post, that javelins are not simply armor but rather exoskeleton suits, or vehicles, as you mentioned. I guess there is no other explanation to that. And that explanation is in itself fair enough. I believe that on a sci-fi game, Bioware could have taken the artistic license and made these javelins look differently on male and female characters. But well, they didn't, they took the gender-less route, fair enough.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Jan 26, 2019 5:01:29 GMT
I think they originally went with the Interceptor body mesh being gender-specific, but scrapped the idea due to having to make small adjustments for every new piece of armor that specific Javelin got. I can't remember what Mark Darrah specifically said about it. The Colossus doesn't make much sense in having it express certain gender features since it's pretty large, and I imagine this would also apply to the Ranger. Don't really know how much different the storm would look.
As for Fort Tarsis, I can kinda see you point. I'm more curious if there were actual design limitations for making it FPS. I see similar criticisms of Cyberpunk being FPS.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2019 5:01:51 GMT
Because it's a vehicle, not a character. Did you buy the "female" version Toyota Corolla? Yep, this... As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional... you say design choice, I say cut corner
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 5:05:16 GMT
As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional... So they changed the point of view on one area of the game to accommodate the tight corridors? Why not make the corridors wider to accommodate the 3rd person view instead? I am sorry, but if this is why Bioware did it, it just feels lame to me. Particularly since by doing so, they removed your own character, when not in the Javelin, from your screen. From a gameplay aspect it would have made a lot more sense to go the other way around. Besides, the Normandy and the Tempest have some tighter corridors.
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 26, 2019 5:17:15 GMT
I think they originally went with the Interceptor body mesh being gender-specific, but scrapped the idea due to having to make small adjustments for every new piece of armor that specific Javelin got. I can't remember what Mark Darrah specifically said about it. The Colossus doesn't make much sense in having it express certain gender features since it's pretty large, and I imagine this would also apply to the Ranger. Don't really know how much different the storm would look. As for Fort Tarsis, I can kinda see you point. I'm more curious if there were actual design limitations for making it FPS. I see similar criticisms of Cyberpunk being FPS. In Cyberpunk, the entire game is in 1st person. The combat takes place in 1st person. They took the 1st person design from the scratch and built the game from there. In Anthem, the entire game is in 3rd person and it is built in 3rd person from the scratch (some of the combat animations are clearly recycled from Andromeda). The only moment that the game for some odd reason is not in 3rd person it's when you are outside of your javelin. As for the javelins' fixed frames for male and female characters, I see your point and I agree with it. I personally think Bioware made some very questionable design decisions though, and I wondered where everyone stands on them.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 26, 2019 5:18:17 GMT
As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional... So they changed the point of view on one area of the game to accommodate the tight corridors? Why not make the corridors wider to accommodate the 3rd person view instead? I am sorry, but if this is why Bioware did it, it just feels lame to me. Particularly since by doing so, they removed your own character, when not in the Javelin, from your screen. From a gameplay aspect it would have made a lot more sense to go the other way around. Besides, the Normandy and the Tempest have some tighter corridors. I don't think the point being made is "the layout has tight corners, thus FPS", but instead that the tight corners, corridors, etc are meant to give a certain feeling of Fort Tarsis: one of everything being kept smaller and compact due to fitting larger populations within the smaller protected walls of the city. It's meant to evoke an emotion.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by samhain444 on Jan 26, 2019 5:19:22 GMT
Yep, this... As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional... you say design choice, I say cut corner I'm repeating what the devs actually said...you know, the ones who made the game...but you can think that if you want
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 26, 2019 5:20:29 GMT
you say design choice, I say cut corner I'm repeating what the devs actually said...you know, the ones who made the game...but you can think that if you want I'd sooner trust a fruit loving snake in a garden than trust BioWare devs for an accurate assessment of the state of their development teams
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Post by samhain444 on Jan 26, 2019 5:26:09 GMT
I'm repeating what the devs actually said...you know, the ones who made the game...but you can think that if you want I'd sooner trust a fruit loving snake in a garden than trust BioWare devs for an accurate assessment of the state of their development teams LOL!
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officerdonnz
N3
The Fat Controller
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: OfficerDonNZ
Posts: 805 Likes: 1,975
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Post by officerdonnz on Jan 26, 2019 5:28:17 GMT
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2019 20:01:23 GMT
Anthem will have a social hub but it isn't ready yet. Not sure if it is in or out of the suit. It's in your suit, as you can see from the short video clip. And, because of common sense -- personalization only applies to suits, as per /thread, and social hubs are to show off your personalization and *cough* mtx purchases *cough*.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2019 20:02:27 GMT
Yeah I still don't see the point in FP-POV in the "story" area. Yeah, I don't like it either, but Cyberpunk 2077, right?
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 26, 2019 20:08:11 GMT
Yep, this... As for the first person POV in the fort, it was a design choice to emphasize the tight corridors and narrow spaces of the living area. It was intentional... you say design choice, I say cut corner So they cut corners in Cyberpunk too? You already said that they are trying something new. So why FPV is suddenly not that? And btw. I'm speaking as not a big fan of FPV, but I don't' expect every decision in every game I play to be to my liking.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2019 20:18:27 GMT
The Colossus doesn't make much sense in having it express certain gender features since it's pretty largeSay what now? Besides, I think it would be awesome to be able to shoot flames out of the boobs of a Colossus.
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