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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 26, 2019 18:50:48 GMT
At this point it's basically a countdown until Jason Schreier posts his behind the scenes article revealing that Anthem had a drastic reboot 18 months ago. I think that's genuinely the most likely scenario; recent, massive direction shift turning a nearly finished game into a disjointed mess. Reworks don't work. Please stop, devs I sincerely doubt it was the devs call
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 26, 2019 18:58:06 GMT
At this point it's basically a countdown until Jason Schreier posts his behind the scenes article revealing that Anthem had a drastic reboot 18 months ago. I think that's genuinely the most likely scenario; recent, massive direction shift turning a nearly finished game into a disjointed mess. Reworks don't work. Please stop, devs I don’t necessarily disagree, but just to argue the other side of it: Mass Effect Andromeda needed a development reboot because they wasted years trying to make the original procedural design work and it simply couldn’t because even the worlds they created were just boring and couldn’t hold a candle to hand crafted content. Andromeda as we got it was deeply flawed, but still better than the failed direction they had tried to take it previously.
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Post by aglomeracja on Feb 26, 2019 19:04:37 GMT
I think that's genuinely the most likely scenario; recent, massive direction shift turning a nearly finished game into a disjointed mess. Reworks don't work. Please stop, devs I don’t necessarily disagree, but just to argue the other side of it: Mass Effect Andromeda needed a development reboot because they wasted years trying to make the original procedural design work and it simply couldn’t because even the worlds they created were just boring and couldn’t hold a candle to hand crafted content. Andromeda as we got it was deeply flawed, but still better than the failed direction they had tried to take it previously. They also changed their lead writers like 3 times, each time throwing away many concepts they had IIRC
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 26, 2019 19:08:29 GMT
When you look at Bioware's earliest games for PC, they were a different beast. To me, while Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 had enjoyable stories for games at the time, what made me play the game repeatedly was the in depth strategic RPG gameplay. The combat system, the characters you could painstakingly roll (30 minutes plugging away to get a great dice roll) the exploration was decent in those days finding pretty decent rings in impossible to see tree trunks. Nowadays we battle the RNG during gameplay, not chargen. I don't completely check you on the complexity argument. A lot of the complexity ended up being displaced to builds over which ability to pull out when, and most of the complexity only ever showed up in mages. DAI warriors and rogues are more complex than their DA:O incarnations, for instance.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 26, 2019 19:09:42 GMT
I don’t necessarily disagree, but just to argue the other side of it: Mass Effect Andromeda needed a development reboot because they wasted years trying to make the original procedural design work and it simply couldn’t because even the worlds they created were just boring and couldn’t hold a candle to hand crafted content. Andromeda as we got it was deeply flawed, but still better than the failed direction they had tried to take it previously. They also changed their lead writers like 3 times, each time throwing away many concepts they had IIRC whoever had the final word on the "we are not arming any of our vessels " needs to be smacked
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 26, 2019 19:16:32 GMT
Well, the window where an armed AI fleet would actually be something other than a waste of money was pretty damn small. OTOH, it just so happened that we did end up in a situation where it would have been a good idea.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 26, 2019 19:21:49 GMT
Well, the window where an armed AI fleet would actually be something other than a waste of money was pretty damn small. OTOH, it just so happened that we did end up in a situation where it would have been a good idea. pretty darn small? Says the life form coming from a galaxy populated by giant planet hopping acid spitting worms that can crush a reaper and space faring murder bots Yeah...sure, let's all go to Andromeda with weaponless ships and rovers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 19:36:57 GMT
I thought the writers were making the point that Jien Garson and the AI were ridiculously optimistic and naïve in thinking that weapons were unnecessary … other than small arms.
Harkening back to before Andromeda was released … there were forum members expressing the hope that the game would be all about exploration and diplomacy … that combat would play a minor role. That sentiment probably matched the AI perspective … but that's not where the writers were taking the game. They took the story down a path to debunk such sentiments.
So the Nexus, the arks, the Tempest, the Nomad … all were unarmed and vulnerable in a galaxy that was no less violent than the galaxy they left. That the MW galaxy was full of violence and danger … should have informed the AI that competition … violent competition … is probably universal. A feature, not a bug of sapient, ambitious, apex lifeforms.
I credit the writers for making that point. If they truly were bad about writing unarmed arks and frigates, then they would have written a story that was all kumbaya … which Andromeda was not. Instead, they were pointing out the folly of the idealists … the poor judgment, the totally unprepared nature of the AI to deal with a range of adverse conditions they might meet in a new galaxy. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. The AI didn't do that and Andromeda, at least to a degree, was a cautionary tale on ideals and fantasy trumping pragmatism and realistic assumptions.
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Post by river82 on Feb 26, 2019 20:47:54 GMT
Den of Geek uses Jade Empire as an example making the case that old Bioware would risk failing and push boundaries, whereas new Bioware has become another studio that's too big to fail. Not quite a 'review' of Anthem, but an interesting read nonetheless Most importantly, it was a BioWare game designed to help destroy some of the conventions and cliches that the studio helped create. Whereas the great Mass Effect and Dragon Age titles that came after Jade Empire expanded on the BioWare console game formula popularized by Knights Of The Old Republic, Jade Empire was the studio's last noteworthy attempt at finding a better way or at least a different path. It fell short of its most ambitious goals, but at least it was made by a version of BioWare that was still setting goals for itself.
That’s the difference between the BioWare of old and the BioWare we have now. One was a studio that challenged itself to break its own award-winning formula and was willing to put itself in a position to fail. With the release of Anthem, BioWare has become the kind of studio that is too big to ever risk failing. In order to avoid doing so, it's embraced live services, microtransactions, simplified gameplay, easy-to-follow stories, familiar worlds and all the other things that will offend the preferences of BioWare's longtime fans.
We can’t blame BioWare for playing it safe on behalf of its employees or shareholders, but we also can’t help but remember Jade Empire in a fond light, as a relic from an era when BioWare dared to challenge trends rather than chase them. www.denofgeek.com/uk/games/63575/jade-empire-bioware-anthem-mass-effect-andromeda-ea
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 26, 2019 20:54:06 GMT
I thought the writers were making the point that Jien Garson and the AI were ridiculously optimistic and naïve in thinking that weapons were unnecessary … other than small arms. Harkening back to before Andromeda was released … there were forum members expressing the hope that the game would be all about exploration and diplomacy … that combat would play a minor role. That sentiment probably matched the AI perspective … but that's not where the writers were taking the game. They took the story down a path to debunk such sentiments. So the Nexus, the arks, the Tempest, the Nomad … all were unarmed and vulnerable in a galaxy that was no less violent than the galaxy they left. That the MW galaxy was full of violence and danger … should have informed the AI that competition … violent competition … is probably universal. A feature, not a bug of sapient, ambitious, apex lifeforms. I credit the writers for making that point. If they truly were bad about writing unarmed arks and frigates, then they would have written a story that was all kumbaya … which Andromeda was not. Instead, they were pointing out the folly of the idealists … the poor judgment, the totally unprepared nature of the AI to deal with a range of adverse conditions they might meet in a new galaxy. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. The AI didn't do that and Andromeda, at least to a degree, was a cautionary tale on ideals and fantasy trumping pragmatism and realistic assumptions. does that not fly in the face of whom we think the backers of the initiative were?
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 26, 2019 21:58:09 GMT
Angry Joe for the encore
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Post by bladefist on Feb 26, 2019 22:15:45 GMT
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 26, 2019 23:09:41 GMT
A very interesting watch. Especially amusing watching them take down differences between marketing and reality, especially about choice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 23:56:33 GMT
I thought the writers were making the point that Jien Garson and the AI were ridiculously optimistic and naïve in thinking that weapons were unnecessary … other than small arms.
Harkening back to before Andromeda was released … there were forum members expressing the hope that the game would be all about exploration and diplomacy … that combat would play a minor role. That sentiment probably matched the AI perspective … but that's not where the writers were taking the game. They took the story down a path to debunk such sentiments.
So the Nexus, the arks, the Tempest, the Nomad … all were unarmed and vulnerable in a galaxy that was no less violent than the galaxy they left. That the MW galaxy was full of violence and danger … should have informed the AI that competition … violent competition … is probably universal. A feature, not a bug of sapient, ambitious, apex lifeforms.
I credit the writers for making that point. If they truly were bad about writing unarmed arks and frigates, then they would have written a story that was all kumbaya … which Andromeda was not. Instead, they were pointing out the folly of the idealists … the poor judgment, the totally unprepared nature of the AI to deal with a range of adverse conditions they might meet in a new galaxy. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. The AI didn't do that and Andromeda, at least to a degree, was a cautionary tale on ideals and fantasy trumping pragmatism and realistic assumptions. does that not fly in the face of whom we think the backers of the initiative were? No. The backers came in well after the AI was started and only when Jien Garson was running out of funds. The backers' motivation was getting species from the MW to another galaxy, as a plan B in case the Reapers prevailed. I don't think that flies in the face of it at all. Garson was an idealist. The benefactor … probably a pragmatist … but by the time the Reapers were a known threat, it was too late to try something else. So helping out the AI was the only game in town. Too late to redesign the arks, the Nexus, the various other components. The Quarian ark had limited redesign and even that almost resulted in that ark getting caught in the Reaper onslaught.
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Post by river82 on Feb 27, 2019 0:43:22 GMT
Jason Schreier is absolutely itching to put out an article:
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 27, 2019 1:20:29 GMT
does that not fly in the face of whom we think the backers of the initiative were? No. The backers came in well after the AI was started and only when Jien Garson was running out of funds. The backers' motivation was getting species from the MW to another galaxy, as a plan B in case the Reapers prevailed. I don't think that flies in the face of it at all. Garson was an idealist. The benefactor … probably a pragmatist … but by the time the Reapers were a known threat, it was too late to try something else. So helping out the AI was the only game in town. Too late to redesign the arks, the Nexus, the various other components. The Quarian ark had limited redesign and even that almost resulted in that ark getting caught in the Reaper onslaught. and a pragmatist sends possibly the last of humanity to another galaxy with no weapons becaaaaaause?
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 27, 2019 1:26:16 GMT
Because the Plot demands it be so. That's why. It doesn't have to make sense.
Anyways, this Andromeda discussion is off topic, no?
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 27, 2019 1:27:54 GMT
Because the Plot demands it be so. That's why. It doesn't have to make sense. Anyways, this Andromeda discussion is off topic, no? sorry got carried away
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Post by lennybusker on Feb 27, 2019 1:35:58 GMT
www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/analysts-react-to-initial-reception-of-electronic-arts-anthem.htmlSuper loved this part. Wedbush's Pachter said EA "made a mistake" by allowing reviews of the PC version of Anthem to surface early. Although the official release of the game was on Feb. 22, subscribers of EA's PC-exclusive Origin Access Premier program were allowed to play the game a week earlier.
"My personal view is that this is just not a PC game — there is flying in the game, and maneuvering your flying character is like driving a car; the controls just don't work well for that on PC, and they work flawlessly on (video game consoles)," he said.
Pachter predicted the console reviews of "Anthem" will likely be 10 points higher on average than their PC counterpart. He described such a score as "still bad, but not a disaster."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 1:41:44 GMT
No. The backers came in well after the AI was started and only when Jien Garson was running out of funds. The backers' motivation was getting species from the MW to another galaxy, as a plan B in case the Reapers prevailed. I don't think that flies in the face of it at all. Garson was an idealist. The benefactor … probably a pragmatist … but by the time the Reapers were a known threat, it was too late to try something else. So helping out the AI was the only game in town. Too late to redesign the arks, the Nexus, the various other components. The Quarian ark had limited redesign and even that almost resulted in that ark getting caught in the Reaper onslaught. and a pragmatist sends possibly the last of humanity to another galaxy with no weapons becaaaaaause? See my post … because by the time the benefactor entered the picture … the project was too far along.
Again, with all of the AI's resources devoted to modification of the Quarian ark … after the rest of the AI left ... they still barely had time to make the mods to the quarrian ark. Spread that level of effort across four more arks, the Nexus, plus redesigning various smaller ships and ground units to carry weapons … they would not have finished in time.
Edit add: CS is right, this is getting far off topic, belongs in the Andromeda thread, not here.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 27, 2019 1:51:10 GMT
Well, the window where an armed AI fleet would actually be something other than a waste of money was pretty damn small. OTOH, it just so happened that we did end up in a situation where it would have been a good idea. pretty darn small? Says the life form coming from a galaxy populated by giant planet hopping acid spitting worms that can crush a reaper and space faring murder bots Yeah...sure, let's all go to Andromeda with weaponless ships and rovers Rovers aren't really on point. The reason vehicle combat isn't in was because Bio never found a way to make vehicle combat fun, not because the AI was opposed to bringing weapons on ground missions. As for armed ships, under what circumstances would they be useful? An Andromeda race which hasn't discovered mass effect drives can't threaten the AI fleet whether it's armed or not. If an Andromeda race does have the mass effect drive, it's shortly going to outclass any possible AI fleet, whether it's armed or not. What's the use case for guns on the arks? But yeah, wrong board.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 27, 2019 1:55:26 GMT
Den of Geek uses Jade Empire as an example making the case that old Bioware would risk failing and push boundaries, whereas new Bioware has become another studio that's too big to fail. Not quite a 'review' of Anthem, but an interesting read nonetheless Most importantly, it was a BioWare game designed to help destroy some of the conventions and cliches that the studio helped create. Whereas the great Mass Effect and Dragon Age titles that came after Jade Empire expanded on the BioWare console game formula popularized by Knights Of The Old Republic, Jade Empire was the studio's last noteworthy attempt at finding a better way or at least a different path. It fell short of its most ambitious goals, but at least it was made by a version of BioWare that was still setting goals for itself.
That’s the difference between the BioWare of old and the BioWare we have now. One was a studio that challenged itself to break its own award-winning formula and was willing to put itself in a position to fail. With the release of Anthem, BioWare has become the kind of studio that is too big to ever risk failing. In order to avoid doing so, it's embraced live services, microtransactions, simplified gameplay, easy-to-follow stories, familiar worlds and all the other things that will offend the preferences of BioWare's longtime fans.
We can’t blame BioWare for playing it safe on behalf of its employees or shareholders, but we also can’t help but remember Jade Empire in a fond light, as a relic from an era when BioWare dared to challenge trends rather than chase them. www.denofgeek.com/uk/games/63575/jade-empire-bioware-anthem-mass-effect-andromeda-eaTrue that. I don't mind they're trying something differen, but at the same time dev studio has to have it's own identity, passion for a certain type of game they all want to make. There was an interview with Arkane devs during making of Prey, talking about how much they all fell in love with "Immersive Sims", experience of first time playing Ultima, Looking Glass games, etc...how they would completely suck at trying to make a sports game or MMO. In this case, Anthem seems like something put together by people who never even played game like Diablo or Borderlands...just look at the game's loot system.
And entire game structure is completely segregated, without really settling into either.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 27, 2019 1:58:18 GMT
www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/analysts-react-to-initial-reception-of-electronic-arts-anthem.htmlSuper loved this part. Wedbush's Pachter said EA "made a mistake" by allowing reviews of the PC version of Anthem to surface early. Although the official release of the game was on Feb. 22, subscribers of EA's PC-exclusive Origin Access Premier program were allowed to play the game a week earlier.
"My personal view is that this is just not a PC game — there is flying in the game, and maneuvering your flying character is like driving a car; the controls just don't work well for that on PC, and they work flawlessly on (video game consoles)," he said.
Pachter predicted the console reviews of "Anthem" will likely be 10 points higher on average than their PC counterpart. He described such a score as "still bad, but not a disaster." Micheal Hackter.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 27, 2019 2:05:23 GMT
pretty darn small? Says the life form coming from a galaxy populated by giant planet hopping acid spitting worms that can crush a reaper and space faring murder bots Yeah...sure, let's all go to Andromeda with weaponless ships and rovers Rovers aren't really on point. The reason vehicle combat isn't in was because Bio never found a way to make vehicle combat fun, not because the AI was opposed to bringing weapons on ground missions. As for armed ships, under what circumstances would they be useful? An Andromeda race which hasn't discovered mass effect drives can't threaten the AI fleet whether it's armed or not. If an Andromeda race does have the mass effect drive, it's shortly going to outclass any possible AI fleet, whether it's armed or not. What's the use case for guns on the arks? But yeah, wrong board. 1: don't care ...that is Bioware's problem 2: how EXACTLY do you know that? wanna compare ME drives and weapons from 500 years ago to modern ME drives weapons and shields? An Andromeda race is guaranteed to be vastly inferior or immediately superior? How about AI/VI assistance for firing solutions or enemy system hacking as clearly demonstrated by the fact that in MANY ways human tech is superior to both kett and angaran tech? So the solution is to go weapnless because no defense at all is better than a redundant one or one that might be outclassed (of which you have no proof of btw) And for arks? Uh...did you not play the Salarian ark mission???
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Post by ahglock on Feb 27, 2019 2:49:39 GMT
Den of Geek uses Jade Empire as an example making the case that old Bioware would risk failing and push boundaries, whereas new Bioware has become another studio that's too big to fail. Not quite a 'review' of Anthem, but an interesting read nonetheless Most importantly, it was a BioWare game designed to help destroy some of the conventions and cliches that the studio helped create. Whereas the great Mass Effect and Dragon Age titles that came after Jade Empire expanded on the BioWare console game formula popularized by Knights Of The Old Republic, Jade Empire was the studio's last noteworthy attempt at finding a better way or at least a different path. It fell short of its most ambitious goals, but at least it was made by a version of BioWare that was still setting goals for itself.
That’s the difference between the BioWare of old and the BioWare we have now. One was a studio that challenged itself to break its own award-winning formula and was willing to put itself in a position to fail. With the release of Anthem, BioWare has become the kind of studio that is too big to ever risk failing. In order to avoid doing so, it's embraced live services, microtransactions, simplified gameplay, easy-to-follow stories, familiar worlds and all the other things that will offend the preferences of BioWare's longtime fans.
We can’t blame BioWare for playing it safe on behalf of its employees or shareholders, but we also can’t help but remember Jade Empire in a fond light, as a relic from an era when BioWare dared to challenge trends rather than chase them. www.denofgeek.com/uk/games/63575/jade-empire-bioware-anthem-mass-effect-andromeda-eaWhat was the brave new boundary push in jade empire. It felt very standard kotor style fair to me.
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