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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Mar 3, 2019 23:09:41 GMT
MODERATOR POST
This is not the place for personal insults and they have been removed. Keep it civil folks.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 3, 2019 23:40:50 GMT
Aw, what did I miss?
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 4, 2019 0:16:00 GMT
I literally didn't know what concept '"instant identification" combo' was supposed to convey. Was my post that unclear? What did you think I meant? (Not seeing ieldra's post directly above mine is on me, though.) Gwydden made it a little clearer. It didn't occur to me on my own because I wouldn't expect to get what Ieldra was looking for from the CC in the first place. Edit: I think this maps onto our discussion of paraphrases. I either start with a character and then see how that character can be implemented within the constraints of the rulesystem and game-world, or go in with something really vague and give the character more definition as I go. (The latter approach makes more sense for a new game where there may be background assumptions I don't know about yet.) But either way my approach to chargen is purely instrumental. I don't expect it to help me. Edit: I see the personal attack is gone. Damn..... I was gonna start using that as my new forum title. This is the most useful thing I've ever read. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 0:17:10 GMT
I literally didn't know what concept '"instant identification" combo' was supposed to convey. Was my post that unclear? What did you think I meant? (Not seeing ieldra's post directly above mine is on me, though.) Gwydden made it a little clearer. It didn't occur to me on my own because I wouldn't expect to get what Ieldra was looking for from the CC in the first place. Edit: I think this maps onto our discussion of paraphrases. I either start with a character and then see how that character can be implemented within the constraints of the rulesystem and game-world, or go in with something really vague and give the character more definition as I go. (The latter approach makes more sense for a new game where there may be background assumptions I don't know about yet.) But either way my approach to chargen is purely instrumental. I don't expect it to help me. Edit: I see the personal attack is gone. Damn..... I was gonna start using that as my new forum title. Get the fuck out of here. alanc9 is great. I disagree with him just about everything, but at least you can have a discussion with him. It's not a potato harvest like it usually is with current BW fans. It's a good forum when you have people like him. A man can articulate and argue for his position, and that's not given nowadays.
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Post by river82 on Mar 4, 2019 1:38:36 GMT
I literally didn't know what concept '"instant identification" combo' was supposed to convey. Was my post that unclear? What did you think I meant? (Not seeing ieldra's post directly above mine is on me, though.) Gwydden made it a little clearer. It didn't occur to me on my own because I wouldn't expect to get what Ieldra was looking for from the CC in the first place. Edit: I think this maps onto our discussion of paraphrases. I either start with a character and then see how that character can be implemented within the constraints of the rulesystem and game-world, or go in with something really vague and give the character more definition as I go. (The latter approach makes more sense for a new game where there may be background assumptions I don't know about yet.) But either way my approach to chargen is purely instrumental. I don't expect it to help me. Edit: I see the personal attack is gone. Damn..... I was gonna start using that as my new forum title. Get the fuck out of here. alanc9 is great. I disagree with him just about everything, but at least you can have a discussion with him. It's not a potato harvest like it usually is with current BW fans. It's a good forum when you have people like him. A man can articulate and argue for his position, and that's not given nowadays. 100% agree. We don't share the same views but Alanc9 is one of my favourite posters along with Midnight Tea, Colfoley, Linksocarina, and a handful of others.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 965 Likes: 2,657
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Partying like it's 1999
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February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 4, 2019 18:19:54 GMT
To me I don't want a character to 'click' that early... Heh I don't need my first character to "click" at all. As I mentioned in some other thread, I use the first play to get a feel for the game and what it allows me to create. Only then will I plan a roleplay and develop a character.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 4, 2019 23:04:46 GMT
To me I don't want a character to 'click' that early... Heh I don't need my first character to "click" at all. As I mentioned in some other thread, I use the first play to get a feel for the game and what it allows me to create. Only then will I plan a roleplay and develop a character. I agree. I usually feel more comfortable with a game to roleplay more in my second pt. However that does raise a couple of issues, first that assumes you will like the game enough to have a second pt. And that sometimes your second character sucks so much it ruins immersion... Like with my second Warden and Alex Hawk.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 5, 2019 1:17:47 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming.
Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2019 2:47:06 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? Well for me it all comes down to mechanics. Even two games in the same series and the same genre can have wildly different mechanics and for RPGs or other games that are long it could take one a while to get used to those mechanics. Then in a second PT now that you have gotten through the mechanics, including things like dialogue system, you have more freedom to actually role play. Plus with these really large RPGs and some of them have different paths to boot you almost never see everything in just one PT.
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 5, 2019 2:53:00 GMT
Huh. I guess nowadays I hardly ever replay games. I don't have the time or the patience anymore, plus there's always new stuff to try out. So even if I really like an RPG, I go into it with the expectation that it will be my only playthrough, at least for a long while.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 5, 2019 4:42:03 GMT
Huh. I guess nowadays I hardly ever replay games. I don't have the time or the patience anymore, plus there's always new stuff to try out. So even if I really like an RPG, I go into it with the expectation that it will be my only playthrough, at least for a long while. Yeah, that's basically my feelings on it. Not just for games, but for most books and movies too. There's very few things I would ever replay. Dragon Age is one of them, but I always make the same choices ANYWAY, because I'm always basically playing an idealised version of myself.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2019 4:51:49 GMT
*is planning on doing his seventh pt of inquisition soon...coughs awkwardly*
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 6:13:29 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? It's not about "getting it right." I don't use meta information to inform my character's choices, I allow the game's constraints to help build my roleplay for who the character is, which is expressed through choices. My male Inquisitor, who is my canon, would not exist if Dorian was not in the game. In addition, much of who he is as a person is built as a counter to Dorian. It's about personality and background, which inform the choices. If that leads him to make a "bad" choice, then so be it; that is what he chose and I will not change it. I try to build a character with his own mind, morality, and reasons for doing things. While it's true that, much of the time, the morality lines up with my own (I just can't play bad/asshole characters...), he is still his own person. A large part of why I stopped playing female characters is because I found myself, as you say, playing an idealized version of myself. There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what one enjoys, but I didn't want to do that. Playing a male character helps me achieve some separation to more fully feel him as a different person. My Inquisitor is my most fully-formed character of the three (four if I include my DAA Orlesian Warden).
Since I came up with this playstyle, I've enjoyed my characters a lot more. Once I settle on a character, I just play that character repeatedly, like watching a favorite movie over again.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2019 6:21:47 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? It's not about "getting it right." I don't use meta information to inform my character's choices, I allow the game's constraints to help build my roleplay for who the character is, which is expressed through choices. My male Inquisitor, who is my canon, would not exist if Dorian was not in the game. In addition, much of who he is as a person is built as a counter to Dorian. It's about personality and background, which inform the choices. If that leads him to make a "bad" choice, then so be it; that is what he chose and I will not change it. I try to build a character with his own mind, morality, and reasons for doing things. While it's true that, much of the time, the morality lines up with my own (I just can't play bad/asshole characters...), he is still his own person. A large part of why I stopped playing female characters is because I found myself, as you say, playing an idealized version of myself. There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what one enjoys, but I didn't want to do that. Playing a male character helps me achieve some separation to more fully feel him as a different person. My Inquisitor is my most fully-formed character of the three (four if I include my DAA Orlesian Warden).
Since I came up with this playstyle, I've enjoyed my characters a lot more. Once I settle on a character, I just play that character repeatedly, like watching a favorite movie over again. me too which is why DAs non face imports/ codes was always irksome.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 5, 2019 6:34:59 GMT
me too which is why DAs non face imports/ codes was always irksome. Yeah... having to make a hard save at the very start and miss whatever beginning stuff just so I can save my character is frustrating. They tried to add it in for DAI, but were unable. Hopefully for DA4... They know it's a feature players want, but have to weigh priorities.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 5, 2019 10:18:03 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? The answer to that lies in the constraints the medium "video game" imposes on roleplaying, which are not present in tabletop roleplaying. Namely, the inability of all video games so far to present us with dialogue options that we would have taken had we been able to talk freely, almost all of the time, and the absence of a GM who could re-route the story if they feel what they prepared doesn't suit the players' preferences or the characters they've made.
Since roleplaying is limited and we must do with the story as presented, missteps can make characters feel inauthentic, and that inauthenticity can be lingering. Thus, the motivation to replay the game as a second (or third, or fourth) draft of the story. And "missteps", for me that are decisions we make that feel out-of-character afterwards. Since we aren't our characters, this can happen if we make decisions too fast, or based on our own emotions rather than those we envision our characters would have. Of course you can simply re-load, but sometimes you write off a misstep as inconsequential but there is some lingering dissatisfaction. Make a few such missteps, and the lingering dissatisfaction can make you want to replay the same character.
Also, your analogy is flawed. It is not so much the GM re-booting their campaigns so that the players can get it right this time. I don't usually change the major decisions when I replay the same character in a video game. It's rather like the players requesting a re-boot so that they can get their characters right, i.e. end up with more authentic versions of them, without necessarily making any major changes in the story. If, as a GM, I re-booted a tabletop rp campaign without a request from players, it would be to get *my* part of it right, i.e. the worldbuilding, the story setup and one or the other NPC maybe.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 5, 2019 10:38:41 GMT
Huh. I guess nowadays I hardly ever replay games. I don't have the time or the patience anymore, plus there's always new stuff to try out. So even if I really like an RPG, I go into it with the expectation that it will be my only playthrough, at least for a long while. Yeah, that's basically my feelings on it. Not just for games, but for most books and movies too. There's very few things I would ever replay. Dragon Age is one of them, but I always make the same choices ANYWAY, because I'm always basically playing an idealised version of myself. That may be the difference then. There are some character types I don't want to play - no malicious assholes, no overly pious types, no stupid or wilfully ignorant types - but the range of characters I enjoy to play goes considerably beyond "an idealized version of myself". This is also why their authenticity is often not a trivial matter. I know *my* mind, but if I play non-self-inserts authenticity doesn't come as naturally. For the same reason, I appreciate it if a game gives me some help with a more detailed character creation system, since every detail makes a character I have envisioned more complete.
Consequently, the games that I have played completely through exactly once are rare. If I like a game enough to finish it once, and it features different characters and/or story decisions in the first place, I also like it enough to finish it more than once, so the tendency is to either not finish it at all, or play through it more than once.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 5, 2019 12:36:31 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? It's not about "getting it right." I don't use meta information to inform my character's choices, I allow the game's constraints to help build my roleplay for who the character is, which is expressed through choices. Yes, but my point was that the choices DAI provides are not enough to build a character through that kind of expression. Not enough, to say that clearly, in number. That matters, because it is your decision *pattern* that expresses who your character is, rather than your choice in a handful of high-stakes decisions, which may be constrained by other factors than your character's personal predispositions.
DAI's war table operations had great potential in that regard, but they felt inconsequential. On the surface, what you get in Pathfinder: Kingmaker is similar: you have a set of advisors who occasionally present you with problems in your kingdom and suggest several options to deal with them. The rationale and projected outcome in narrative terms is explained to you, and the decision you make both expresses what kind of ruler you are and has some impact on the development of your kingdom as well as on the satisfaction of your advisor, who may resign or leave if you piss them off too often. DAI's war table operations were certainly numerous enough, as opposed to choices you make while going out in person, but they never quite worked the same way for me. I'm not sure why, maybe it's the absence of dialogue, maybe it's that you don't actually decide but pick an advisor who will decide according to *their* preference, maybe it's that the constraints of advisor availability imposed by the long operation times makes you play for the numbers if you want to complete all operations. Possibly all of that, to some degree.
Well, maybe I'm completely off-track with all of this. The problem for me is that my DAI characters felt fragile in terms of characterization strength. They worked more or less, but it was a constant struggle to keep them intact in my mind. In contrast, both characters I have now made for Pathfinder:Kingmaker and one of my characters in the POE games were resilient in terms of characterization strength. Whether the more detailed character creation or the more numerous relevant decisions were the reason, or something completely different, I don't really know in the end. I do know that I'd like to have characters that resilient in the next DA game.
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Kabraxal
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,004 Likes: 2,731
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 5, 2019 20:41:29 GMT
*is planning on doing his seventh pt of inquisition soon...coughs awkwardly* Scrub. Talk to me when you get to ten! 😋 I actually have tired of “new” lately. I am replaying a lot if things.
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dirtydiscolux
N2
<3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 224 Likes: 536
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 6, 2019 2:45:27 GMT
*is planning on doing his seventh pt of inquisition soon...coughs awkwardly* I'm on my 14th DAI playthrough. My method is to create a character and play her into the ground, keeping her earliest save file in a folder with her name on it. Then when I'm done with her, I mark it as (old character) and move the folder to another folder titled DAI WS with the rest of my characters with world states I may or may not replay. I may have a problem.
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Post by river82 on Mar 6, 2019 6:24:59 GMT
*is planning on doing his seventh pt of inquisition soon...coughs awkwardly* My method is to create a character and play her into the ground, keeping her earliest save file in a folder with her name on it. Then when I'm done with her, I mark it as (old character) and move the folder to another folder titled DAI WS with the rest of my characters with world states I may or may not replay. 0.0
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<3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 224 Likes: 536
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 6, 2019 14:24:20 GMT
My method is to create a character and play her into the ground, keeping her earliest save file in a folder with her name on it. Then when I'm done with her, I mark it as (old character) and move the folder to another folder titled DAI WS with the rest of my characters with world states I may or may not replay. 0.0 I know but I've never really trusted Dragon Age Keep, therefore any character that has a World State that is important to me is stored on my computer. I prefer direct imports like DA2. The 14 playthroughs? I mostly have no shame.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 14:41:08 GMT
I legitimately do not understand how roleplay can be BETTER when you already know everything that's coming. Like, do DMs do their homebrew DnD campaign over again so players can 'get it right this time'? Ackshually, there are tabletop RPGs which utilize a predetermination and foreknowledge in various ways. Although, in tabletops the prime cause for doing so is not to help players to roleplay, but to help them craft and ensure desired narratives. There's actually a whole school of roleplaying based on this principle (narrative orientation), with many published games (sometimes called narrativist, Forge, or just indie roleplaying games). It's a marginal corner of a marginal hobby, but there are RPGs in which people play basically the same game and essentially the same story many times over, typically because they enjoy the experience and/or sometimes they want to get the story right. This can go quite far actually, I've played RPGs in which there almost was a script (games had a predetermined narrative structure, divided in acts and scenes, it had certain ending, many relationships and goals were agreed upon or given before games started, there's been even some scripted lines). In these games an immersion to one's character is tertiary objective at best, the most important is to act out and create certain agreed on story, then give out an appropriate performance of your character(s) in that story (immersing to a character is there to help you to give a better story and performance, not a priority in itself). I suppose, it blurs lines between traditional RPGs and theater. Even D&D can be played in this fashion, or some elements from this style can be incorporate into otherwise more traditional games (ofc, nothing about D&D rules or game supports this style, so I question the sensibility of trying implement it there, but it's been done).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 14:50:55 GMT
Well, maybe I'm completely off-track with all of this. The problem for me is that my DAI characters felt fragile in terms of characterization strength. They worked more or less, but it was a constant struggle to keep them intact in my mind. In contrast, both characters I have now made for Pathfinder:Kingmaker and one of my characters in the POE games were resilient in terms of characterization strength. Whether the more detailed character creation or the more numerous relevant decisions were the reason, or something completely different, I don't really know in the end. I do know that I'd like to have characters that resilient in the next DA game. You are not off-track about DAI, but is that a reasonable or good standard, which computer roleplaying games should be hold to? As a caveat, you know you, and if you judge CRPGs primary on whether they allow or support roleplaying, that's totally legitimate. It's a good gold standard as anything else. However, speaking from personal experiences, I used to have this expectation, and unsurprisingly it was (and still is) quite uncommon to find games which actually allowed me to have that experience. Trying to impose this criteria lead to constant disappointments, and when I gave it up, and no longer tried to force it reality, I found out that I started to enjoy these games far more for what they actually were. I still enjoy roleplaying as a rare delicacy, but as a default I don't expect avg. CRPG to give me that experience. It might be counter-intuitive, but actually when you think about it, it's herculean task to get right with constraints of the medium. Ofc, roleplaying itself can be defined in many ways, but in this instance I am referring to: immersing oneself to a defined character, and secondly an ability to self-express, interpret and interact that character within a game somewhat on your own terms (emphasis on the self-expression. Although not even tabletop RPGs are about or allow a pure self-expression. It's always constrained and adjusted by rules, other players and GM). This alone is a tall order to fill, but combined it with demands for a satisfying narrative, gameplay, aesthetics, atmosphere, worldbuilding and so on. Nowadays, I typically seek for a more holistic experience, and if game is lacking on a certain domain like roleplaying, I typically try to adjust my expectations quickly, and drop the attempt before letting the game fail in it. I am not saying that this is what you should and need to do, but it's something that has made me enjoy these games more.
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