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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 4:27:20 GMT
Sorry if you feel I put you on the spot. That wasn't my intention. Your description of what you consider a character arc to be is consistent with my understanding. Now what this means for RPGs is most RPGs do use the various 'reward arcs' to grow their characters and give the players a sense of acomplishment because pretty much every RPG I've played the character's status changes throughout the game. Though it is important for any RPG to give the player the chance to react to these changes. So the Warden could basically define what a Warden is to them, Hawk could've used their position (or not) in any number of ways, but these changes can still be utilized to great effect. More fundamental changes to ones personality though is a lot harder to quantify, as noted above, and is usually more left up to the sole descretionof the player. IE my Hawk became more responsible and more concerned about Kirkwall, my Ryder discovered that his father wasn't so bad afterall which let him heal...after the fact...my Inquisitor found a family in the Inquisition and generally became less judgemental. But it is important to note, at least for me, that the more and the longer the writers can stretch out their individual arcs the easier I find it to come up with my own. You have some nice descriptions here of changes made by some of your characters in the course of their respective games. None of them are things I noticed directly reflected in the game itself - so either I missed/misunderstood something OR it's your own interpretation (headcanon) of who they were/what they believed to start with and how they processed and responded to the things they experienced throughout the course of their storylines. I'm trying to figure out the disconnect in a post upthread, where I had said: Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started.… and then you replied with: not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early.I guess what I'm getting at here is that any of these characters may have had whatever character arcs their players imagined for them, no?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 1, 2019 6:01:33 GMT
Sorry if you feel I put you on the spot. That wasn't my intention. Your description of what you consider a character arc to be is consistent with my understanding. Now what this means for RPGs is most RPGs do use the various 'reward arcs' to grow their characters and give the players a sense of acomplishment because pretty much every RPG I've played the character's status changes throughout the game. Though it is important for any RPG to give the player the chance to react to these changes. So the Warden could basically define what a Warden is to them, Hawk could've used their position (or not) in any number of ways, but these changes can still be utilized to great effect. More fundamental changes to ones personality though is a lot harder to quantify, as noted above, and is usually more left up to the sole descretionof the player. IE my Hawk became more responsible and more concerned about Kirkwall, my Ryder discovered that his father wasn't so bad afterall which let him heal...after the fact...my Inquisitor found a family in the Inquisition and generally became less judgemental. But it is important to note, at least for me, that the more and the longer the writers can stretch out their individual arcs the easier I find it to come up with my own. You have some nice descriptions here of changes made by some of your characters in the course of their respective games. None of them are things I noticed directly reflected in the game itself - so either I missed/misunderstood something OR it's your own interpretation (headcanon) of who they were/what they believed to start with and how they processed and responded to the things they experienced throughout the course of their storylines. I'm trying to figure out the disconnect in a post upthread, where I had said: Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started.… and then you replied with: not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early.I guess what I'm getting at here is that any of these characters may have had whatever character arcs their players imagined for them, no? nah you didn't, just trying to think of conveying these points simply. Pretty much but i feel that a game writer/ dev shouldn't feel like they have to get rid of a valuable tool in their toolbox. But this doesent mean players can't create their own just when done right this is a powerful tool for storytelling and immersion.
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Polka Dot
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 6:21:12 GMT
Sorry if you feel I put you on the spot. That wasn't my intention. Your description of what you consider a character arc to be is consistent with my understanding. You have some nice descriptions here of changes made by some of your characters in the course of their respective games. None of them are things I noticed directly reflected in the game itself - so either I missed/misunderstood something OR it's your own interpretation (headcanon) of who they were/what they believed to start with and how they processed and responded to the things they experienced throughout the course of their storylines. I'm trying to figure out the disconnect in a post upthread, where I had said: Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started.… and then you replied with: not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early.I guess what I'm getting at here is that any of these characters may have had whatever character arcs their players imagined for them, no? nah you didn't, just trying to think of conveying these points simply. Pretty much but i feel that a game writer/ dev shouldn't feel like they have to get rid of a valuable tool in their toolbox. But this doesent mean players can't create their own just when done right this is a powerful tool for storytelling and immersion. Well, sure, but when the writers impose more character definition they are taking away role-playing opportunities from the player. I'd agree that it's a powerful tool - clearly you made great use of it in your descriptions of 3 of your characters. You were able to do that because the writers left that tool in your hands. JMHO.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Mar 1, 2019 16:22:54 GMT
I don't anyone here is actually disagreeing here. I think the difference between headcanon and an actual in-game arc is whether the game provides you the dialogue to express what you want your character to say.
Essentially, people just want more dialogue overall for their PC.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 16:42:10 GMT
I don't anyone here is actually disagreeing here. I think the difference between headcanon and an actual in-game arc is whether the game provides you the dialogue to express what you want your character to say. Essentially, people just want more dialogue overall for their PC. I admit I sometimes get a bit... disillusioned (?) with requests for more types of dialogue. Partly because the paraphrases mean I don't really know what my character is going to say until I've made the selection, partly because it can take so many forms, and partly because budgets aren't infinite. There are *so* many different aspects of character, opinion, motives, reactions, class, race, background, etc. that players might want to express - and writers always have to do the best they can with the assigned budget. More character dialogue can mean fewer quests, less party banter, fewer overheard conversations among NPCs, etc. It's always a tradeoff.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 1, 2019 18:41:43 GMT
I don't anyone here is actually disagreeing here. I think the difference between headcanon and an actual in-game arc is whether the game provides you the dialogue to express what you want your character to say. Essentially, people just want more dialogue overall for their PC. kind of but polka dot raises a concern too. I just want whatever arcs, be they personal or in the game, to be supported and reflected by dialogue. Like for the game provided Arc: the warden can express their feelings about becoming a warden and what it means. Shepard can either be supportive or very passive aggressive about becoming a Specter. For my personal arc: my inquisitor hated her family and also was distrustful of the Chantry to falling in love with an Ex-Templar and finding a family in the Inquisition.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 1, 2019 21:49:08 GMT
I don't anyone here is actually disagreeing here. I think the difference between headcanon and an actual in-game arc is whether the game provides you the dialogue to express what you want your character to say. Essentially, people just want more dialogue overall for their PC. I admit I sometimes get a bit... disillusioned (?) with requests for more types of dialogue. Partly because the paraphrases mean I don't really know what my character is going to say until I've made the selection, partly because it can take so many forms, and partly because budgets aren't infinite. There are *so* many different aspects of character, opinion, motives, reactions, class, race, background, etc. that players might want to express - and writers always have to do the best they can with the assigned budget. More character dialogue can mean fewer quests, less party banter, fewer overheard conversations among NPCs, etc. It's always a tradeoff. Which is why I still play games with no cinematic scenes and unvoiced protagonists. Written lines are cheap and don't convey tone, so usually games like POE or Pathfinder:Kingmaker have *way* more dialogue options and generally more dialogue complexity *and* more quests, too. An added factor is that cinematic scenes can't easily be adapted to different dialogue options. I like the cinematic presenation of Bioware's games since ME1, but they come at a heavy price which I tend to see as increasingly too high since dialogue gets more and more linear the more visually elaborate the scenes become. Games like DAI are enjoyable, but as roleplaying games they leave a lot to be desired. My character from Pathfinder:Kingmaker - where you not only have more dialogue but much more elaborate character creation - was more "mine" after two hours of playing than the Inquisitor after completing the game.
Which means headcanon works in many cases, but it's the lesser option. I would happily accept dialogue scenes that were as simple as in TW3's sidequests (which were still 3D dialogue scenes, but relatively static) if I could have more ways to express my character - they did this in older games like Fallout 1+2, Arcanum, Planescape:Torment, Fallout:New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity 1+2 and now Pathfinder:Kingmaker, to list only those I've played. Sure, there is always some tradeoff, but I can't see why this can't work in cinematic games as well.
And things in cinematic games are often even worse, as evidenced by ME's Shepard who was so mind-numbingly stupid at times that I had to headcanon reasons why he'd say such things in spite of not really being that stupid, since that level of stupidity would never do for one of my characters. Where that level of headcanon is required, you really can't speak of roleplaying anymore.
BTW, don't get me started on the paraphrasing. That was the most dramatically damaging design decision ever made for SP video games in general. It destroys roleplaying. How the hell are you expected to roleplay if your characters don't even know their own minds.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 2, 2019 0:26:55 GMT
Yeah they say they have to use the paraphrases because sitting and listening to your character say the thing you just read is boring or something. I guarantee that reloading because I misinterpreted a paraphrase or doing it multiple times to hear all lines so i can pick the one thats closest to what my character would say is way more boring.
Besides those few times whilest playing video games when a character actually said exactly what was written instead of something different were actually really satisfying. I don't really like being surprised by what my character sais.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 2, 2019 1:09:36 GMT
I'm with the devs on this one. I can't imagine how boring it would be to read through some of these long arse speaches only to have the character read it all out verbatum.
As for the paraphrasing is concerned aside from ME 1 (which remember was BioWare's first attempt at this sort of thing) they have had a remarkable success rate. I mean not to put too much of a point on it but I can only think of one example off the top of my head from ME 2-Andromeda where I didn't like what came out of Shep's or Ryder's mouth after a paraphrase and DA 2 only had a couple of examples...maybe just the one too. DAI didn't have any. And I've never had to reload a save because I didn't like what came out of their mouth.
The only time I had to do that was during Dragon Age Origins, with its silent protagonist, where I thought what was my Warden still discussing his options ended up killing Wynne and getting the entire Circle Anulled by extension so yeah...reloaded that save faster then a hot potato.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 2, 2019 7:19:52 GMT
I'm with the devs on this one. I can't imagine how boring it would be to read through some of these long arse speaches only to have the character read it all out verbatum. As for the paraphrasing is concerned aside from ME 1 (which remember was BioWare's first attempt at this sort of thing) they have had a remarkable success rate. I mean not to put too much of a point on it but I can only think of one example off the top of my head from ME 2-Andromeda where I didn't like what came out of Shep's or Ryder's mouth after a paraphrase and DA 2 only had a couple of examples...maybe just the one too. DAI didn't have any. And I've never had to reload a save because I didn't like what came out of their mouth. The only time I had to do that was during Dragon Age Origins, with its silent protagonist, where I thought what was my Warden still discussing his options ended up killing Wynne and getting the entire Circle Anulled by extension so yeah...reloaded that save faster then a hot potato. The cases where you need to reload because what your character - surprisingly - says is out of character are only the tip of the iceberg, though. The critical failures, if you want, and they're thankfully relatively rare. The disconnect from your character starts at a lower threshold: a regular failure happens whenever you're even so slightly surprised by what your character says, whenever what the character says is not out of character but out of tune, where you have a fleeting impression that it doesn't fit the paraphrase.
Furthermore, the paraphrasing system is designed to give you emotional cues. The paraphrase is designed to express what you feel, assuming that you'll follow up and say something that fits there. Quite often, I don't play that way. For instance I'm diplomatic because it's useful to be diplomatic, not because I'm an agreeable - or even worse, particulary empathic - person in general. I occasionally envision my characters as diplomatic, but most of them use diplomacy as a skill, they don't have it as a personality trait. If you select your dialogue directly, the difference is irrelevant and your roleplaying isn't damaged either way. Paraphrasing, however, presupposes a motivation, which becomes apparent in those critical failures like in DA2, where the system blithely presumes a specific reason why you're glad Isabela is back.
The worst thing, though, is that this is all completely unnecessary from my POV. This flimsy argument that it's "boring" if you have to listen to what you just read falls apart whenever you have the option to skip spoken dialogue - which is almost all the time. The real reason, I suspect, is that in many cinematic games, a spoken line can trigger a whole sequence of imagery with different lines, and to have to read all that in advance would spoil the scene and feel artificial on top of it, while interrupting the scene to give the player the opportunity for input would damage the flow of the scene. Well, I can only say I'd rather be interrupted. Or use more static and shorter 3D dialogue scenes. If that will let me know the mind of the character I'm supposedly playing.
Edit: As for how often these critical failures happen, that depends on how much the writers of a scene anticipated the possible range of player reactions, and of course on whenever they failed in that, how much in tune their writing was with the attitude of an individual player and their vision of their character. For me there hasn't been a Bioware game after DAO where this didn't happen at least once. Well, perhaps not strictly in ME3, but there autodialogue with no possible input from me played the same role in a way that was even more annoying. DAI was surprisingly good at this, but I still got my critical failure when I acquired the agent from the Hinterlands cult by ..... approving the strength of her faith after selecting a completely innocent paraphrase. Urgh. Instant disconnect.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 2, 2019 7:37:10 GMT
I'm with the devs on this one. I can't imagine how boring it would be to read through some of these long arse speaches only to have the character read it all out verbatum. As for the paraphrasing is concerned aside from ME 1 (which remember was BioWare's first attempt at this sort of thing) they have had a remarkable success rate. I mean not to put too much of a point on it but I can only think of one example off the top of my head from ME 2-Andromeda where I didn't like what came out of Shep's or Ryder's mouth after a paraphrase and DA 2 only had a couple of examples...maybe just the one too. DAI didn't have any. And I've never had to reload a save because I didn't like what came out of their mouth. The only time I had to do that was during Dragon Age Origins, with its silent protagonist, where I thought what was my Warden still discussing his options ended up killing Wynne and getting the entire Circle Anulled by extension so yeah...reloaded that save faster then a hot potato. The cases where you need to reload because what your character - surprisingly - says is out of character are only the tip of the iceberg, though. The critical failures, if you want, and they're thankfully relatively rare. The disconnect from your character starts at a lower threshold: a regular failure happens whenever you're even so slightly surprised by what your character says, whenever what the character says is not out of character but out of tune, where you have a fleeting impression that it doesn't fit the paraphrase.
Furthermore, the paraphrasing system is designed to give you emotional cues. The paraphrase is designed to express what you feel, assuming that you'll follow up and say something that fits there. Quite often, I don't play that way. For instance I'm diplomatic because it's useful to be diplomatic, not because I'm an agreeable - or even worse, particulary empathic - person in general. Paraphrasing presupposes a motivation, which becomes apparent in those critical failures like in DA2, where the system blithely presumes a specific reason why you're glad Isabela is back.
The worst thing, though, is that this is all completely unnecessary from my POV. This flimsy argument that it's "boring" if you have to listen to what you just read falls apart whenever you have the option to skip spoken dialogue - which is almost all the time. The real reason, I suspect, is that in many cinematic games, a spoken line can trigger a whole sequence of imagery with different lines, and to have to read all that in advance would spoil the scene and feel artificial on top of it, while interrupting the scene to give the player the opportunity for input would damage the flow of the scene. Well, I can only say I'd rather be interrupted. Or use more static and shorter 3D dialogue scenes. If that will let me know the mind of the character I'm supposedly playing.
Edit: As for how often these critical failures happen, that depends on how much the writers of a scene anticipated the possible range of player reactions, and of course on whenever they failed in that, how much in tune their writing was with the attitude of an individual player and their vision of their character. For me there hasn't been a Bioware game after DAO where this didn't happen at least once. Well, perhaps not strictly in ME3, but there autodialogue with no possible input from me played the same role in a way that was even more annoying. DAI was surprisingly good at this, but I still got my critical failure when I acquired the agent from the Hinterlands cult by ..... approving the strength of her faith after selecting a completely innocent paraphrase. Urgh. Instant disconnect.
I was not just talking about the 'critical failures' but the 'surprised when your character says something'. That happened so rarely for me that its barely worth commenting on. 1 time in ME 2-A and only a small handful of times in DA 2 and Inquisition. AND the only critical failure I've ever had of this vein was in Origins.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 3, 2019 7:58:27 GMT
The cases where you need to reload because what your character - surprisingly - says is out of character are only the tip of the iceberg, though. The critical failures, if you want, and they're thankfully relatively rare. The disconnect from your character starts at a lower threshold: a regular failure happens whenever you're even so slightly surprised by what your character says, whenever what the character says is not out of character but out of tune, where you have a fleeting impression that it doesn't fit the paraphrase. But the paraphrases are an interface, not the substance. The real disconnect is when none of the available responses is useful for the character you intended to play. Traditional or paraphrase, there's nothing to be done about that. Of course, surprise is something you only get with paraphrases; with traditional it's just irritation.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 3, 2019 11:20:36 GMT
Here's one other thing I'd like to see: ability/story interaction.
Bioware increasingly did away with stats and skills, in the mistaken belief that this is irrelevant for roleplaying. Well, it isn't. Period. Again, I'm noticing this atm since I've played the POE games last year and Pathfinder: Kingmaker now. You are not just what you say, you are also what you do, how you approach situations, which things you learn and which things you don't. Consequently, the characters I made in the aforementioned games had a high chance of identification right after character creation (if that didn't manifest, I made a new one), and story constraints might have damaged that identification (which they didn't in POE1 and P:K, but did somewhat in POE2), but there is some tolerance for mistakes since identification exists from the start.
Meanwhile, in DAI you can select only know your background, your class and your appearance. There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. You are supposed to define your character through the story, and that's a very good idea in principle, but if the story gives you no hooks for identification you have a problem - and Bioware has been really extremely competent in avoiding giving me any "instant identification" moments in the characters I wanted most to succeed. As a result, my Inquisitors tend to feel quite similar. More dialogue options, advance knowledge of those and more ability/story interaction would greatly help to make them different.
Contrast DAO, which not only had some ability/story interaction (the skill system made sure of that), but also provided the opportunity to make our characters more than blank slates before the main story even started. This was more than Bioware had ever done in this regard before, and that was one reason why DAO won so much acclaim. It was also more than they ever did in later games, while never providing a substitute, and that's why many people still think DAO is better than everything that came after.
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Post by Reznore on Mar 3, 2019 12:50:48 GMT
I'm with the devs on this one. I can't imagine how boring it would be to read through some of these long arse speaches only to have the character read it all out verbatum. I thought the same thing before I played FO4. The paraphrase system was so bad, I like having my pc goofing around, so I picked the sarcastic/funny answer...problem was you had like one word as a paraphrase...and sometimes you were goofing around but sometimes you were just mocking people right to their faces and being an ass. So after pissing a couple of npcs off, I installed a mod with the whole sentences. And to my surprise it was not redundant at all. Usually the pc in this sort of game does not goes on long monologue so it helps you pick your choices in a more controlled way, and you don't have time to get bored. The npcs reacts right away so you don't have much down time.
I played another game recently where you had a narrator going on monologues + the long text on screen. And yeah in this case it feels like too much.
Imho the devs used paraphrases just to hide the fact that answers are often samey in content and not because they get bad feedback. Or problems with the dialogue wheel.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 3, 2019 13:32:50 GMT
There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. So I was thinking you were using "identification" as some POE-related thing. I haven't played POE, so dismissed it. Then you used it in relation to DAI and I'm left confused. I don't at all understand what you mean by using the word or how you can stumble "on one of the very rare 'instant identification' combos" in DAI. I have no idea what this means. Can you give an example?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 3, 2019 13:52:40 GMT
My true and sincere opinion regarding DA4's potential tone and feel can be summed up by my posts in the long-dead thread about having more songs.
Basically, I want a goddamn musical.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 3, 2019 18:18:24 GMT
There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. So I was thinking you were using "identification" as some POE-related thing. I haven't played POE, so dismissed it. Then you used it in relation to DAI and I'm left confused. I don't at all understand what you mean by using the word or how you can stumble "on one of the very rare 'instant identification' combos" in DAI. I have no idea what this means. Can you give an example? I don't know how you make your characters. I have a vague concept that I try to realize. Then I fiddle with the character creation system and often I get something vaguely satisfying, whether or not the initial concept was followed or changed. Sometimes, however, it sort-of clicks in my mind and there is an "this is it" moment. That's what I'm speaking of when I say "instant identification". At that point I know these characters will be memorable unless I someone fubar them in the game. What triggers this varies - most of the time it's either giving my character a name after fiddling with the technical parts, in Bioware games it's usually after I'm finished with the appearance since that's the only meaningful thing you spend time with in character creation. The point I was trying to make is that the more varied the character traits are which you can influence at character creation, the more likely it is that after such a moment, the character will feel solid and real, and will be somewhat resilient in the face of adverse story events. Two of my Inquisitors started out very promising, but since I couldn't set many traits they felt somewhat fragile as well. They feel as if acted upon by the story, rather than being actors in their stories.
And the technical parts of character creation, where you define skills, special attributes etc., they play a part in making a character feel solid and less fragile. Maybe it wouldn't be needed if we could express more varied character traits in the dialogues, but...well, that, too, is a domain of old-school RPGs these days.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 3, 2019 18:58:46 GMT
Meanwhile, in DAI you can select only know your background, your class and your appearance. There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. I don't know what you mean by this.
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Aug 11, 2017 18:04:01 GMT
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slimgrin727
I don't stir, I work the material.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 3, 2019 19:18:05 GMT
Meanwhile, in DAI you can select only know your background, your class and your appearance. There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. I don't know what you mean by this. Maybe he means the origin stories. But you need to elaborate more as well.
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Gwydden
1,269
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 3, 2019 21:11:11 GMT
Meanwhile, in DAI you can select only know your background, your class and your appearance. There is little identification to start with unless you really lucked out in the CC and stumbled on one of the very rare "instant identification" combos. I don't know what you mean by this. Maybe I'm off-base here, but I relate to what he's saying in that when in a character creation screen (or sometimes in the first few minutes of play), there's often a moment when the character I'm making "clicks" and I get a pretty good idea of how to play them going forward. This doesn't happen so much in Bioware games other than DA:O because the choices you're given when making a character are so limited. DA:O is the exception since it had the most in-depth character creation system since KotOR, plus it added a new, important choice in the form of playable backgrounds.
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Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,384
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 3, 2019 22:03:31 GMT
If i remember correctly in dai they started you with a default ability instead of letting you spend your first ability point. Which i presume is to make things easier for beginners but can be annoying if that's not the ability your character would have/what you would have chosen for their first, and if your not investing in its tree then it's just a waste of a point you have to respec to get back.
I'd like it if they give us control of our attributes back and let us choose where our starting att and ab points go.
They can always add a preset/customize option to help beginners without messing with other players gameplay and roleplay.
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colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Mar 3, 2019 22:13:23 GMT
I see this is becoming a thing so once again I'm going to have to post the exact opposite because the idea...confuses me.
To me I don't want a character to 'click' that early... Well maybe in Andromeda but then i was able to pull it off. To me though the great thing about RPGs is discovering and developing the character. The joy is that after 20 hours of playing you finally get a choice which is character defining moment which just clicks, or when you can start making dialogue choices almost without thinking because you know the character so well.
Anyways either way again the only game i had trouble connecting or clicking to my character was...Origins.
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May 16, 2024 18:55:15 GMT
2,728
Gwydden
1,269
November 2016
gwydden
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Gwydden on Mar 3, 2019 22:25:26 GMT
To me I don't want a character to 'click' that early... Well maybe in Andromeda but then i was able to pull it off. To me though the great thing about RPGs is discovering and developing the character. The joy is that after 20 hours of playing you finally get a choice which is character defining moment which just clicks, or when you can start making dialogue choices almost without thinking because you know the character so well. If all goes well, the character I start the game with is not the same I finish with. So those are two different "clicks" for me: the one when you get a feel for the basic concept and background early on, and the one when you experience an organic evolution of that original concept into something more complex that reflects the events of the game. For that to happen, I require either a lot of room for expression or a well-defined set character with a few interesting choices. The ME games and the DA sequels have neither.
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31,363
colfoley
16,643
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
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colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Mar 3, 2019 22:32:45 GMT
To me I don't want a character to 'click' that early... Well maybe in Andromeda but then i was able to pull it off. To me though the great thing about RPGs is discovering and developing the character. The joy is that after 20 hours of playing you finally get a choice which is character defining moment which just clicks, or when you can start making dialogue choices almost without thinking because you know the character so well. If all goes well, the character I start the game with is not the same I finish with. So those are two different "clicks" for me: the one when you get a feel for the basic concept and background early on, and the one when you experience an organic evolution of that original concept into something more complex that reflects the events of the game. For that to happen, I require either a lot of room for expression or a well-defined set character with a few interesting choices. The ME games and the DA sequels have neither. fair enough but i rarely go into a CC and pick the one that clicks because i usually play a human or have done enough research where i know what I'm going to do in terms of background before i do it.
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alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,840
February 2017
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 3, 2019 23:02:57 GMT
Maybe I'm off-base here, but I relate to what he's saying in that when in a character creation screen (or sometimes in the first few minutes of play), there's often a moment when the character I'm making "clicks" and I get a pretty good idea of how to play them going forward. This doesn't happen so much in Bioware games other than DA:O because the choices you're given when making a character are so limited. DA:O is the exception since it had the most in-depth character creation system since KotOR, plus it added a new, important choice in the form of playable backgrounds. removed by moderator I literally didn't know what concept '"instant identification" combo' was supposed to convey. Was my post that unclear? What did you think I meant? (Not seeing ieldra's post directly above mine is on me, though.) Gwydden made it a little clearer. It didn't occur to me on my own because I wouldn't expect to get what Ieldra was looking for from the CC in the first place. Edit: I think this maps onto our discussion of paraphrases. I either start with a character and then see how that character can be implemented within the constraints of the rulesystem and game-world, or go in with something really vague and give the character more definition as I go. (The latter approach makes more sense for a new game where there may be background assumptions I don't know about yet.) But either way my approach to chargen is purely instrumental. I don't expect it to help me. Edit: I see the personal attack is gone. Damn..... I was gonna start using that as my new forum title.
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