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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 26, 2019 23:33:23 GMT
Regarding the cutscene/text: you reminded me that the CC did have a paragraph with a little bit of information. The fact that I had to be reminded, however, tells me that it didn't leave much of an impact. Some of us prefer it this way. The Inquisitor is the most blank slate protagonist of them all, which is one reason that protagonist is my favorite.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 26, 2019 23:42:25 GMT
The big problem with Inquisition is its beginning also doubled as the Inciting Incident which launched the Inquisitor off on their story. Usually an inciting incident happens after the protagonist and the world has to marinate, at least a little bit. In Origins the inciting incident happens at the very end of the various Origins (Ie during the human noble the death of their father and them fleeing with Duncan) or during DA 2 when Hawke finds out about the Deep Roads expedition which gives her a chance to get out of the slums she has been living in. I thought DA2's inciting incident was the darkspawn attack on Lothering? At least that's what I thought... But you're spot-on regarding the rest of your argument. We should have a moment before shit goes down to get to familiarize ourselves with the situation, as well as our characters if necessary. Now that I say this, I realize that nothing is really needed origin-wise for the opening moments. Just more diverse dialogue... maybe some exclusive scenarios on certain quests, that would be perfect. EDIT: Regarding the cutscene/text: you reminded me that the CC did have a paragraph with a little bit of information. The fact that I had to be reminded, however, tells me that it didn't leave much of an impact. Some of us prefer it this way. The Inquisitor is the most blank slate protagonist of them all, which is one reason that protagonist is my favorite. I don't disagree. I just didn't feel like the Inquisitor could be as fleshed out as the Warden. But that's just a question of feeling.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 27, 2019 0:18:04 GMT
I maintain that its not a choice between 6 individual, hours long, beginnings and 1 in medis res beginning that leaves you out of sync with your character and trying to figure out whats going on.
They could have shown the inquisitor at the conclave, had them talk to friend/collegue of faction, Bob the guard, a couple other npcs (a templar, a mage), then had the explosion and we could have been like 'oh no! not friendcollegue and bob!' and been shocked with our character - as opposed to watching our character be shocked/grieving whilst we're disconnected from events and trying to figure out what happened.
Each of DAO's origins had an introduction phase that intro'd the world and allowed you to establish who you your character was/how they felt before shit went down through conversations and actions with the various npcs, then a Crisis - the shit going down, followed by an Aftermath that dealt with/reacted to the crisis and led you on to the rest of the story.
Hell, cut the origins and Ostagar still has that Introduction(Warden Recruit)/Crisis(Tower Incursion)/Aftermath(Fighting to Top + Flemeth) formula for all characters regardless of background, so it can be done. But DA2 and DAI both start in the aftermath, after a crisis you weren't there for and can't immerse yourself in your characters reaction to, with no chance of rping who you are before the shit goes down.
The beginning and the combat were the reasons that inquisition didn't surpass DAO as my favourite Dragon Age game. So I hope they get over the desire to immediately start you in the action in medis res and favour a beginning that lets you immerse yourself in your character and the world again. Whats good for a movie is not necesarily good for a roleplaying game.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2019 0:48:10 GMT
The big problem with Inquisition is its beginning also doubled as the Inciting Incident which launched the Inquisitor off on their story. Usually an inciting incident happens after the protagonist and the world has to marinate, at least a little bit. In Origins the inciting incident happens at the very end of the various Origins (Ie during the human noble the death of their father and them fleeing with Duncan) or during DA 2 when Hawke finds out about the Deep Roads expedition which gives her a chance to get out of the slums she has been living in. I thought DA2's inciting incident was the darkspawn attack on Lothering? At least that's what I thought... But you're spot-on regarding the rest of your argument. We should have a moment before shit goes down to get to familiarize ourselves with the situation, as well as our characters if necessary. Now that I say this, I realize that nothing is really needed origin-wise for the opening moments. Just more diverse dialogue... maybe some exclusive scenarios on certain quests, that would be perfect. EDIT: Some of us prefer it this way. The Inquisitor is the most blank slate protagonist of them all, which is one reason that protagonist is my favorite. I don't disagree. I just didn't feel like the Inquisitor could be as fleshed out as the Warden. But that's just a question of feeling. nah. That was a prologue which got them to Kirkwall but really didn't effect the story all that much. I wouldve preffered them to do what they did in bioshock and have a sort of carnivel which wouldve explained bits of gameplay to you.
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 27, 2019 2:27:56 GMT
Am I the only one who didn't like the Warden? He felt too much like plot vehicle than person.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 27, 2019 3:17:06 GMT
People have brought up something that I've found interesting. While I'll still contend that DAI could be still be very dark in terms of subject matter I agree with the idea that since our PC usually didn't have emotional personal stakes in those dark moments that they ended up lacking punch. Yes, we first see the the Inquisitor being abused by Cassandra but that's over quick and we more or less move on from that without being given any more opportunities to delve into how our PC is still processing that. Sure, the mystery of how we survived the destruction of the Temple of Sacred Ashes and gained the Anchor is interesting but the more engaging thing is when the Inquisitor is allowed to talk about their own thoughts on those events. To me there was just so many times when our character was just going through the plot instead of emoting about it. The religious debate you have with Mother Giselle and the time you get to talk to your LI about the aftermath of Wicked Hearts is awesome and I wish we had more opportunities to do stuff like that.
This is ultimately just a symptom of a larger problem of the Inquisitor being IMHO way less interesting and motive than any of the companion characters in our party. I mean, besides their speech to the Advisors about how miserable is that despite saving the world things are still shit and now their dying, I never felt that much for them because they only had a barebones backstory and a straight forward motivation compared to our companions or even the Warden.
People will argue that too much established backstory takes our ability to create our own motivations for our PC, but to me, without the of NPCs react to whatever complicated backstory we've created in our heads I really don't see much value in the "Let the Player Come Up With Their Own Backstory" philosophy to PCs. If the Inquisitor used to be part of the Carta than have his or her old criminal buddies show at Skyhold. If the Inquisitor is a Dalish elf and their clan is in trouble, than for love of the Maker allow us to safe it ourselves instead of having be done through the wartable missions.
While I know we probably won't be going back to Origins-like backstory I do whole there's more a personally story with our next PC along with the whole save the world from crazy ancient mages plot.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 27, 2019 8:19:46 GMT
I thought DA2's inciting incident was the darkspawn attack on Lothering? At least that's what I thought... But you're spot-on regarding the rest of your argument. We should have a moment before shit goes down to get to familiarize ourselves with the situation, as well as our characters if necessary. Now that I say this, I realize that nothing is really needed origin-wise for the opening moments. Just more diverse dialogue... maybe some exclusive scenarios on certain quests, that would be perfect. If I was to remake DA2, I'd have had the game proper (after Varric's exaggerated opening) start with the Darkspawn attack on Lothering, depicting Hawke's family as fighting their way out of the burning ruins of the town with their mother, before meeting Aveline and Wesley fighting darkspawn on the road.
I'd have also made the area where we lose our sibling, fight off Darkspawn and meet Flemeth, a blighted and barren version of the campsite from DAO. The Darkspawn could have been drawn to that location because the Warden and Alistair had previously been there, while Flemeth was making sure that Morrigan had indeed gotten the Warden ahead of the horde.
Same basic events as in the game, but replacing the barren wasteland with Lothering and one of the ruined Warden camps would be a nice way to tie it into the events of the previous game and feel like they're sharing the same world. I would have even left it unsaid who's camp it was, let DAO player make the connection and enjoy that little easter-egg for themselves.
They could have shown the inquisitor at the conclave, had them talk to friend/collegue of faction, Bob the guard, a couple other npcs (a templar, a mage), then had the explosion and we could have been like 'oh no! not friendcollegue and bob!' and been shocked with our character - as opposed to watching our character be shocked/grieving whilst we're disconnected from events and trying to figure out what happened. This is what I wanted and expected them to do, giving players a brief moment to see the Conclave and interact with some of the people there prior to the Breach.
Maybe we could have encountered a unique NPC tied to our background that gave us an errand, sending us into part of the temple where we discover a bunch of dead guards and the Divine shouting for help. As we open the door, we then cut to outside as the the explosion levels the mountain.
It'd have been a short, effective little teaser to set up the world, the situation and who our Inquisitor is.
Am I the only one who didn't like the Warden? He felt too much like plot vehicle than person. Careful, the last person who expressed such thoughts ended up being killed by the Dragon in the Crow Fens.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2019 8:45:20 GMT
Am I the only one who didn't like the Warden? He felt too much like plot vehicle than person. He is a good protagonist for a silent protagonist but otherwise no...not really...no character arc.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 27, 2019 9:12:01 GMT
He is a good protagonist for a silent protagonist but otherwise no...not really...no character arc. Yeah, as far as I can think of, the only real character/story arc stuff we get is from returning to places and meeting characters from our origin again later in the game.
Aeducan goes from exile to Kingmaker, Brosca and Tabris go from nobodies to local heroes, Cousland gets revenge on Howe for the death of their family, Amell/Surana can save (or doom) the Circle and Mahariel ends up mercy-killing the ghoulified Tamlen.
But those minor arcs are more related to us as an individual, not as a Grey Warden.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 27, 2019 11:51:33 GMT
The argument could be made that, being a role-playing game, the character arc of the protagonist is largely up to the player.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 27, 2019 13:16:01 GMT
The argument could be made that, being a role-playing game, the character arc of the protagonist is largely up to the player. I agree with the principle of this, but the main issue of contention will be how the player is able to follow through with their character's development and what avenues the game supplies to enable that. Some players require the game to supply more than others. For example, I prefer the Inquisitor as a blank slate protagonist, but I've seen many people say that they like the origins because it supplies them with a foundation on which to build their character.
My Inquisitor's character arc -- being a reluctant representative for the Inquisition as Herald and then later as leader, feeling the heavy weight of that responsibility and a touch of resentment at having that thrust on him, finally accepting the role and his competency in it, and then ultimately giving that up -- takes place largely in my head (and partly in fanfic I've written). There are only a few times in the game where I'm able to act out any of those feelings. On occasion, I'd prefer that there were more, but given my Inquisitor's personality I don't know that I'd take them; it would depend on how they're offered (he only confides doubts and other issues to those closest to him; during the time of DAI, that's Dorian).
Somewhat related, in my recent canon re-do of DA2, I had Hawke gradually shift from blue to red as he got tired of dealing with everyone's shit. As much as I dislike the DA2 personality system, that was a fun experience. But the reason for it, and behind picking those dialogue options, again exists largely in my head. Some people just aren't satisfied with that.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 27, 2019 16:15:55 GMT
Am I the only one who didn't like the Warden? He felt too much like plot vehicle than person. He is a good protagonist for a silent protagonist but otherwise no...not really...no character arc. As with most RPGs, the warden's character arc is entirely up to the player. The argument could be made that, being a role-playing game, the character arc of the protagonist is largely up to the player. Exactly this. Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 27, 2019 17:54:02 GMT
The origin certainly helped in dao. My cousland came out of the origin angry at his father and determined to be ruthless enough not to share his fate, which led down many darker choice paths and finally him to the throne with anora.
With hawke think I got lucky, loved mixing between sarky, direct or diplomatic depending on character stance on character/subject. Though there was clearly less freedom than origins.
Felt zero connection to the inquisitor, never really felt like I could make him/her my own, just left me hoping the inquisitor dies a horrible death before da4.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 27, 2019 19:44:03 GMT
He is a good protagonist for a silent protagonist but otherwise no...not really...no character arc. As with most RPGs, the warden's character arc is entirely up to the player. The argument could be made that, being a role-playing game, the character arc of the protagonist is largely up to the player. Exactly this. Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started. not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early. The goal of any RPG shouldnt be to entirely remove the tools of a writers toolbox but to give them new context. So the characters should have arcs but the player decides how they react to the potential changes.
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simit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
Posts: 790 Likes: 1,042
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Post by simit on Feb 28, 2019 0:43:57 GMT
Are you saying the wardens arc ended once there origin story ended? Sorry no understanding you much there m8, put it down to lack of coffee 👍
I just dont understand how the wardens arc ends any earlier than anyone elses tbh
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 28, 2019 1:09:31 GMT
Careful, the last person who expressed such thoughts ended up being killed by the Dragon in the Crow Fens. I'm sorry, that dragon came down with a fatal case of being hit with enough magic to win a small war. But seriously, as someone who loved the concept of the Origins, the Warden was a forgettable protagonist. Only the Dwarven Commoner felt like they got some real story out of it. And even then, not much.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Feb 28, 2019 1:16:57 GMT
It isn't the tone of the games I'd take issue with, but the storytelling. I liked Origins and Inquisition, but couldn't care less for ][ because the storytelling was lazy and nonsensical at points that I couldn't reconcile with later scenes or plot points.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 28, 2019 1:19:31 GMT
Yeah, that sounds familiar to me. And let's face it: origin stories are exclusive content. Most people play a game only once, so you end up building all of this content the vast majority of players will never see. There is always some of that (alternate content) - the romances, consequences for different choices, etc. I was fairly surprised that DAI had two different major questline setpieces (In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the Just) that were exclusive. And that content varies wildly in popularity. The number of players who tried an elf was small, the number who tried a dwarf was tiny.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 28, 2019 1:40:56 GMT
The argument could be made that, being a role-playing game, the character arc of the protagonist is largely up to the player. I agree with the principle of this, but the main issue of contention will be how the player is able to follow through with their character's development and what avenues the game supplies to enable that. Some players require the game to supply more than others. For example, I prefer the Inquisitor as a blank slate protagonist, but I've seen many people say that they like the origins because it supplies them with a foundation on which to build their character. I have no problem with either approach, personally. Even when BioWare supplies information for you, you can always just headcanon that your character is flat-out lying, and has actually been a lizardman from Mars the entire time.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 28, 2019 4:41:28 GMT
I have no problem with either approach, personally. Even when BioWare supplies information for you, you can always just headcanon that your character is flat-out lying, and has actually been a lizardman from Mars the entire time. That doesn't work for me. Even my fanfic doesn't counter presented in-game canon. It doesn't seem "real" to me to be playing with one set of presented facts while headcanoning something else. I could headcanon that Hawke lost his whole family to the Blight, but that doesn't change how the game plays.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 28, 2019 5:42:15 GMT
I have no problem with either approach, personally. Even when BioWare supplies information for you, you can always just headcanon that your character is flat-out lying, and has actually been a lizardman from Mars the entire time. That doesn't work for me. Even my fanfic doesn't counter presented in-game canon. It doesn't seem "real" to me to be playing with one set of presented facts while headcanoning something else. I could headcanon that Hawke lost his whole family to the Blight, but that doesn't change how the game plays. Well the game directly contradicts that, but conversely, there is nothing in DA2 that says Hawke COULDN'T be a reptilian sleeper agent placed with the family as an infant. But the acceptable degree of "foundation" is going to be different for everyone, it's inevitable that BioWare will miss the mark for a lot of people. Personally I don't give a fuck as long as I can be gay. I don't need to feel like I am a collaborator in the story, I write my own stories.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 954 Likes: 2,626
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 28, 2019 19:46:56 GMT
People have brought up something that I've found interesting. While I'll still contend that DAI could be still be very dark in terms of subject matter I agree with the idea that since our PC usually didn't have emotional personal stakes in those dark moments that they ended up lacking punch. Yes, we first see the the Inquisitor being abused by Cassandra but that's over quick and we more or less move on from that without being given any more opportunities to delve into how our PC is still processing that. Sure, the mystery of how we survived the destruction of the Temple of Sacred Ashes and gained the Anchor is interesting but the more engaging thing is when the Inquisitor is allowed to talk about their own thoughts on those events. To me there was just so many times when our character was just going through the plot instead of emoting about it. The religious debate you have with Mother Giselle and the time you get to talk to your LI about the aftermath of Wicked Hearts is awesome and I wish we had more opportunities to do stuff like that. This is true... for a roleplaying game, I don't think there are that many opportunities for the Inquisitor to have a voice of their own. Sadly, I also have to agree. The roleplaying aspects in general felt more... diluted (?) in Inquisition than in the other games. That said, I do think Trespasser was a first step towards addressing some of these concerns, and I think they're in a good position to steer away from how the Inquisitor was handled in the base game. Considering that playable origins appear to be a resource drain, I'm betting that if they do this for DA4, they'll go more along the lines of what we got in ME1. Hopefully with more unique dialogue options than in DAI and exclusive scenarios in otherwise regular quests. So do I.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 3:00:54 GMT
As with most RPGs, the warden's character arc is entirely up to the player. Exactly this. Each of the wardens I played had different motivations, made different choices (or the same choice for a different reason) and ended up in a different place than they started. not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early. The goal of any RPG shouldnt be to entirely remove the tools of a writers toolbox but to give them new context. So the characters should have arcs but the player decides how they react to the potential changes. I would posit that the goal of any RPG is to give players a toolbox for role-play. That said, I get the distinct impression that your definition of character arc is quite different from mine. Would you be willing to help me understand what you consider a character arc to be?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 1, 2019 3:48:41 GMT
not really. Hawk, the inquisitor and Ryder all had their own arcs. Even Shepar and the Warden just theirs ended very early. The goal of any RPG shouldnt be to entirely remove the tools of a writers toolbox but to give them new context. So the characters should have arcs but the player decides how they react to the potential changes. I would posit that the goal of any RPG is to give players a toolbox for role-play. That said, I get the distinct impression that your definition of character arc is quite different from mine. Would you be willing to help me understand what you consider a character arc to be? *breaks into a cold sweat* Uh i suppose there is no easy way to do this so... Basically there are essentially two types of arcs. Growth arcs and destruction arcs. And esentially, I have found, writers tends to either utilize rewards/ punishments, or to have them find out something about themselves/ fail to...which leaves them a changed person. In a nutshell a character arc is a state of change in a character from one state to another. When dealing with rewards this could be a promotion or a change in status. IE Hawk becomes Champion of Kirkwall, the Inquisitor becomes the...Inquisitor, and Wrex grows to lead the Krogan. With realization or actual arcs which change a character's personality....well the most obvious one is probably the Legion arc or perhaps the Jack arc, both kind of became more complete people (though I hesitate to use the Jack example). The Inquisitor desovers the truth behind the Conclave Now what this means for RPGs is most RPGs do use the various 'reward arcs' to grow their characters and give the players a sense of acomplishment because pretty much every RPG I've played the character's status changes throughout the game. Though it is important for any RPG to give the player the chance to react to these changes. So the Warden could basically define what a Warden is to them, Hawk could've used their position (or not) in any number of ways, but these changes can still be utilized to great effect. More fundamental changes to ones personality though is a lot harder to quantify, as noted above, and is usually more left up to the sole descretionof the player. IE my Hawk became more responsible and more concerned about Kirkwall, my Ryder discovered that his father wasn't so bad afterall which let him heal...after the fact...my Inquisitor found a family in the Inquisition and generally became less judgemental. But it is important to note, at least for me, that the more and the longer the writers can stretch out their individual arcs the easier I find it to come up with my own.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Sifr
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Mar 1, 2019 4:01:28 GMT
I have no problem with either approach, personally. Even when BioWare supplies information for you, you can always just headcanon that your character is flat-out lying, and has actually been a lizardman from Mars the entire time.*Stealthily mutters into his wrist-communicator*
"The human knows too much... scramble the Tripods, we're going to have to move up the invasion timetable immediately."
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