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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 2:44:13 GMT
It kinda amuses me seeing people still preordering games. I did it once with ME3, was dissapointed with the end result, never did it again.
And this Anthem debacle was predictable, from my perspective. After ME3 and MEA, BW would have to deliver an almost perfect product to avoid overscrutiny of its flaws. Good is not good enough.
I will wait about a year to purchase this game, the same amount I waited to purchase MEA. It appears to be the right thing to do with AAA games nowadays.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 2:53:21 GMT
It kinda amuses me seeing people still preordering games. I did it once with ME3, was dissapointed with the end result, never did it again. And this Anthem debacle was predictable, from my perspective. After ME3 and MEA, BW would have to deliver an almost perfect product to avoid overscrutiny of its flaws. Good is not good enough. I will wait about a year to purchase this game, the same amount I waited to purchase MEA. It appears to be the right thing to do with AAA games nowadays. What is amusing about it? I preorder from companies I support. I only do it for companies I trust to deliver a product I'll enjoy, such as BioWare and Civilization games. I'm not so jaded as to believe that they won't work on fixing any potential flaws that exist in my experience. That's the benefit of having a software product. The product I buy today can only improve, and I want to be there from Day 1, especially as a fan. That being said, I follow a pattern similar to yours. I don't often play games on release that much, even if I preorder them. I often wait a few months. I have a massive backlog to go through anyway, and even then I like to wait for mods. Honestly I only played Anthem so soon because I was curious to see what all the drama is about. I'm only level 20 as I have limited gameplay time and the apparently unique capacity to play multiple games at once, but it's been entertaining. My experience has been pleasant so far. I'll probably finish the story then peace out for a bit. Would I probably save more money if I bought it later? Perhaps. But I spend a lot more money per year on far less relevant products in my life. 60-80$ is a very small price to pay for hundreds of hours of entertainment. In fact I think gamers are pretty damn spoiled. You pay 20$+ for a good book that lasts you a few hours.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 3:07:01 GMT
What is a story? A story is everything that happens to that character. The main character leapt off an aeroplane, had a drink, took a piss, talked to a couple of ladies, obliterated a terrorist organisation, had some sex, had some wine, went to sleep, was murdered brutally. Plot: The important bits of information - the main character leapt off an aeroplane, obliterated a terrorist organisation, was murdered brutally. Notice how these events all relate to one another. The events also are important, though. Narrative: How those events are told. The plot or Revan can change dramatically, most noticeably at its climax where Revan can destroy or not destroy the star forge, and the resolution of those events. If you somehow don't think the events themselves are important, then describe the plot of the latest movie you watched without the actual events being told. From what I can tell from reading your post, you confuse plot and narrative. Narrative is not the building blocks of the plot, it's how the plot is told. EDIT: This guy confuses story with plot, should have chosen a better slide. Narrative is correct though
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 3:07:49 GMT
It kinda amuses me seeing people still preordering games. I did it once with ME3, was dissapointed with the end result, never did it again. And this Anthem debacle was predictable, from my perspective. After ME3 and MEA, BW would have to deliver an almost perfect product to avoid overscrutiny of its flaws. Good is not good enough. I will wait about a year to purchase this game, the same amount I waited to purchase MEA. It appears to be the right thing to do with AAA games nowadays. What is amusing about it? I preorder from companies I support. I only do it for companies I trust to deliver a product I'll enjoy, such as BioWare and Civilization games. I'm not so jaded as to believe that they won't work on fixing any potential flaws that exist in my experience. That's the benefit of having a software product. The product I buy today can only improve, and I want to be there from Day 1, especially as a fan. That being said, I follow a pattern similar to yours. I don't often play games on release that much, even if I preorder them. I often wait a few months. I have a massive backlog to go through anyway, and even then I like to wait for mods. Honestly I only played Anthem so soon because I was curious to see what all the drama is about. I'm only level 20 as I have limited gameplay time and the apparently unique capacity to play multiple games at once, but it's been entertaining. My experience has been pleasant so far. I'll probably finish the story then peace out for a bit. Would I probably save more money if I bought it later? Perhaps. But I spend a lot more money per year on far less relevant products in my life. 60-80$ is a very small price to pay for hundreds of hours of entertainment. In fact I think gamers are pretty damn spoiled. You pay 20$+ for a good book that lasts you a few hours.
It is amusing, at least for me. Bioware's rep in the last 8 years was not stellar. To give them money before seeing the finished product after all that happened...I would never do it.
And as you said, one would be spending hundreds of hours, the only real commodity of one's life, on what many would consider subpar entertainment. Is it worth 80$? I dunno, honestly.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 3:09:38 GMT
One problem though is the endings are not indicative of aspects to the plot, just being the overall conclusion of it. Endings are just resolution of the whole story, the plot doesn't really change with different endings, the story does somewhat. Now why am I bringing that into this? It's not to move goalposts, but to explain differences between the three. Story refers to the order of events. Plot refers to how key events relate to each other, and Narrative refers to the building blocks of the Plot, the details of it. So what you cite above, from KoToR, is narrative changes to accomodate the primary events of the overall plot to complete the story, versus changes to the overall plot to fit a separate story. The story of KoToR is the story of Revan. The plot of KoToR is to confront Malak and deal with the Star Forge. The Narrative of KoToR is the choice between Light and Dark side. The example you put above are emblematic of that all, as the plot of KoToR is stopping Malak and dealing with the Star Forge does not change, only personal motivations (narrative choice) does. So this is does not change plot elements which are etched and you follow. It changes narrative elements, what path you follow to the resolution. BioWare has been pulling this trick since Baldur's Gate, you never had full control over any of their games primary plot beats. In all honesty, a lot of RPG's don't do that, they instead give the illusion of it, such as using endling slides, in-game changes, whatever techniques that work to simulate plot changes but are really just narrative beats. It's at best, illusion of choice and consequence, the barebones of any RPG mechanics. One can argue BioWare is not doing the illusion well anymore, but to say they are misleading people is ultimately an incorrect statement as they are doing the same techniques they have done since Baldur's Gate. As to what it does for the player, it's playing into that illusion, sure, but you ultimately have no power over anything no matter how hard you think you do. Believing you do is a false sense of control, like a tabletop GM who gives the illusion of choice to their players. It's the same exact trick, it just feeds self gratification despite all of the artifice if done well. Incorrect, the plot is the main points of the story and how they relate to each other of which the ending (and in KOTOR's example the climax) is a part (mostly depending, but in KOTOR's case certainly). The story is the whole. When KOTOR changed the ending, it changed the plot. We can go into detail about this if you'd like, I know you know a lot about this, but I wonder if you know just how much I know about this. Let's start off with the basic elements of plot and go from there: Anyway, to say that the plot is to deal with Star Forge, and the decision of whether to destroy the Star Forge or not is related to story and not plot is quite a bit disingenuous. And yet the Star Forge is part of the driving force of why you are chasing Malak in the game, as well as the reason for visiting four other planets to collect a map. Note also that the decision you make to the Star Forge (destroying or using it) is narrative choice, as the plot is "dealing" with the Star Forge. That's kind of the difference, where we are likely splitting hairs on this right now. Most plot beats in game RPG narratives are purposefully this way to try and avoid linearity by design. Some games purposefully disavow narrative choices to service future plots (Leliana comes to mind) and whether we see it as a retcon or not, the developers and writers made a determination as to which plot points are necessary and which narrative choices need to be cut in the process. The point I am making is the plot is still unchanged by these narrative events in the ending. All of the rising conflict follows the plot beats as established (chasing Malak and Star Map pieces) the climax is the same for light and dark as well. (The death of Malak and the outcome of the Star Forge) The resolution, ultimately, is narrative details to connect the plot together to the choices. So what you do with the Star Forge, Bastila, and such are narrative choices over plot choices. I don't doubt you know a lot about this, I just question the argument being made as it seems to mistake aspects of plot being changeable, which again is not something BioWare does. For example, the plot of Anthem is your going after the Monitor and revisiting the Heart of Rage, we can agree on that. The thing is, the content in-between is all narrative brick building. How we talk to Owen, how we deal with side characters, or view Ft. Tarsis, all of that stuff. We can see the artifice of the plot because narrative choices are separated from it basically, so what BioWare did was strip away choice and consequence in the plot, but not the choice and consequence of the narrative blocks. They basically separated the illusion, but didn't remove the choice or consequence in Anthem.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 3:14:15 GMT
It is amusing, at least for me. Bioware's rep in the last 8 years was not stellar. To give them money before seeing the finished product after all that happened...I would never do it.
And as you said, one would be spending hundreds of hours, the only real commodity of one's life, on what many would consider subpar entertainment. Is it worth 80$? I dunno, honestly.
Well aren't such statements rather hyperbolic? There's much to enjoy in a video game, even if parts of it are disappointing. I would say the same applies to any form of entertainment. Does one enjoy every chapter of a book? Does one enjoy every football game? Does one always have fun at parties? It just feels that gamer culture is just far too perfectionist. There is no such thing as a finished product in software. There are always bugs. There are always improvements. There are always changes. That's the nature of a software product. The standards aren't transferable.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 3:21:14 GMT
What is a story? A story is everything that happens to that character. The main character leapt off an aeroplane, had a drink, took a piss, talked to a couple of ladies, obliterated a terrorist organisation, had some sex, had some wine, went to sleep, was murdered brutally. Plot: The important bits of information - the main character leapt off an aeroplane, obliterated a terrorist organisation, was murdered brutally. Notice how these events all relate to one another. The events also are important, though. Narrative: How those events are told. The plot or Revan can change dramatically, most noticeably at its climax where Revan can destroy or not destroy the star forge, and the resolution of those events. If you somehow don't think the events themselves are important, then describe the plot of the latest movie you watched without the actual events being told. From what I can tell from reading your post, you confuse plot and narrative. Narrative is not the building blocks of the plot, it's how the plot is told. It's hard for me to take a random slide seriously that says people boarded a boar. To answer your question, The plot of the last movie I watched is two people are murdered in a radio station, and two bumbling fools try to figure out who did it. I never said the plot wasn't important by the way. If that was implied that's my fault so sorry. I am saying, however, they are purposefully vague in the face of narrative choice by the games overall design, which is what most RPG's focus on to sell the illusion.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 3:22:27 GMT
Incorrect, the plot is the main points of the story and how they relate to each other of which the ending (and in KOTOR's example the climax) is a part (mostly depending, but in KOTOR's case certainly). The story is the whole. When KOTOR changed the ending, it changed the plot. We can go into detail about this if you'd like, I know you know a lot about this, but I wonder if you know just how much I know about this. Let's start off with the basic elements of plot and go from there: Anyway, to say that the plot is to deal with Star Forge, and the decision of whether to destroy the Star Forge or not is related to story and not plot is quite a bit disingenuous. And yet the Star Forge is part of the driving force of why you are chasing Malak in the game, as well as the reason for visiting four other planets to collect a map. Note also that the decision you make to the Star Forge (destroying or using it) is narrative choice, as the plot is "dealing" with the Star Forge. That's kind of the difference, where we are likely splitting hairs on this right now. Most plot beats in game RPG narratives are purposefully this way to try and avoid linearity by design. Some games purposefully disavow narrative choices to service future plots (Leliana comes to mind) and whether we see it as a retcon or not, the developers and writers made a determination as to which plot points are necessary and which narrative choices need to be cut in the process. The point I am making is the plot is still unchanged by these narrative events in the ending. All of the rising conflict follows the plot beats as established (chasing Malak and Star Map pieces) the climax is the same for light and dark as well. (The death of Malak and the outcome of the Star Forge) The resolution, ultimately, is narrative details to connect the plot together to the choices. So what you do with the Star Forge, Bastila, and such are narrative choices over plot choices. I don't doubt you know a lot about this, I just question the argument being made as it seems to mistake aspects of plot being changeable, which again is not something BioWare does. For example, the plot of Anthem is your going after the Monitor and revisiting the Heart of Rage, we can agree on that. The thing is, the content in-between is all narrative brick building. How we talk to Owen, how we deal with side characters, or view Ft. Tarsis, all of that stuff. We can see the artifice of the plot because narrative choices are separated from it basically, so what BioWare did was strip away choice and consequence in the plot, but not the choice and consequence of the narrative blocks. They basically separated the illusion, but didn't remove the choice or consequence in Anthem. The problem with describing stuff about writing is that there's never a lot of resources on hand without going flipping through books or something. Try this one though: Narrative is the choice of which events to relate and in what order to relate them – so it is a representation or specific manifestation of the story, rather than the story itself The easy way to remember the difference between story and narrative is to reshuffle the order of events. A new event order means you have a new narrative of the same story. www.beemgee.com/blog/story-vs-narrative/
As I described just a little above, the plot is the specific events. In this case HOW Revan dealt with the Star Forge. Let me give you an example - When you recite the plot of Revan you don't say "Revan dealt with the star forge". Have you ever read a summary of a book that had that as the plot? Try and pull up a plot summary of a novel and you're not going to see "and they dealt with their problems". Part of the plot would be "Revan destroyed the Star Forge", so not destroying the Star Forge is a change in the plot. The narrative is HOW the plot is conveyed. So like I said, I think the problems you're having is you're mixing plot and narrative. Which is confusing.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 3:25:56 GMT
What is a story? A story is everything that happens to that character. The main character leapt off an aeroplane, had a drink, took a piss, talked to a couple of ladies, obliterated a terrorist organisation, had some sex, had some wine, went to sleep, was murdered brutally. Plot: The important bits of information - the main character leapt off an aeroplane, obliterated a terrorist organisation, was murdered brutally. Notice how these events all relate to one another. The events also are important, though. Narrative: How those events are told. The plot or Revan can change dramatically, most noticeably at its climax where Revan can destroy or not destroy the star forge, and the resolution of those events. If you somehow don't think the events themselves are important, then describe the plot of the latest movie you watched without the actual events being told. From what I can tell from reading your post, you confuse plot and narrative. Narrative is not the building blocks of the plot, it's how the plot is told. It's hard for me to take a random slide seriously that says people boarded a boar. To answer your question, The plot of the last movie I watched is two people are murdered in a radio station, and two bumbling fools try to figure out who did it. I never said the plot wasn't important by the way. If that was implied that's my fault so sorry. I am saying, however, they are purposefully vague in the face of narrative choice by the games overall design, which is what most RPG's focus on to sell the illusion. From some authors: Narrative,' says John Gregory Dunne, 'is not plot.' And he's right. Here is how I understand his statement, and what it means when writing a novel.
Plot is what happens. Narrative is what the reader sees and hears of what happens – and how he sees and hears it.
www.caroclarke.com/plotandnarrative.htmlNormally the go to place for information is a really good professional editor, but it's not like they have blogs on the internet lol
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 8, 2019 3:34:19 GMT
From some authors: Narrative,' says John Gregory Dunne, 'is not plot.' And he's right. Here is how I understand his statement, and what it means when writing a novel.
Plot is what happens. Narrative is what the reader sees and hears of what happens – and how he sees and hears it.
www.caroclarke.com/plotandnarrative.htmlNormally the go to place for information is a really good professional editor, but it's not like they have blogs on the internet lol I like this definition of narrative a lot more than the slice-and-dice one. It's not just about sequence. Changing the narrator changes the narrative also, without changing the plot. It's how the story is told, in every respect.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 3:41:23 GMT
And yet the Star Forge is part of the driving force of why you are chasing Malak in the game, as well as the reason for visiting four other planets to collect a map. Note also that the decision you make to the Star Forge (destroying or using it) is narrative choice, as the plot is "dealing" with the Star Forge. That's kind of the difference, where we are likely splitting hairs on this right now. Most plot beats in game RPG narratives are purposefully this way to try and avoid linearity by design. Some games purposefully disavow narrative choices to service future plots (Leliana comes to mind) and whether we see it as a retcon or not, the developers and writers made a determination as to which plot points are necessary and which narrative choices need to be cut in the process. The point I am making is the plot is still unchanged by these narrative events in the ending. All of the rising conflict follows the plot beats as established (chasing Malak and Star Map pieces) the climax is the same for light and dark as well. (The death of Malak and the outcome of the Star Forge) The resolution, ultimately, is narrative details to connect the plot together to the choices. So what you do with the Star Forge, Bastila, and such are narrative choices over plot choices. I don't doubt you know a lot about this, I just question the argument being made as it seems to mistake aspects of plot being changeable, which again is not something BioWare does. For example, the plot of Anthem is your going after the Monitor and revisiting the Heart of Rage, we can agree on that. The thing is, the content in-between is all narrative brick building. How we talk to Owen, how we deal with side characters, or view Ft. Tarsis, all of that stuff. We can see the artifice of the plot because narrative choices are separated from it basically, so what BioWare did was strip away choice and consequence in the plot, but not the choice and consequence of the narrative blocks. They basically separated the illusion, but didn't remove the choice or consequence in Anthem. The problem with describing stuff about writing is that there's never a lot of resources on hand without going flipping through books or something. Try this one though: Narrative is the choice of which events to relate and in what order to relate them – so it is a representation or specific manifestation of the story, rather than the story itself The easy way to remember the difference between story and narrative is to reshuffle the order of events. A new event order means you have a new narrative of the same story. www.beemgee.com/blog/story-vs-narrative/
As I described just a little above, the plot is the specific events. In this case HOW Revan dealt with the Star Forge. Let me give you an example - When you recite the plot of Revan you don't say "Revan dealt with the star forge". Have you ever read a summary of a book that had that as the plot? Try and pull up a plot summary of a novel and you're not going to see "and they dealt with their problems". Part of the plot would be "Revan destroyed the Star Forge", so not destroying the Star Forge is a change in the plot. The narrative is HOW the plot is conveyed. So like I said, I think the problems you're having is you're mixing plot and narrative. Which is confusing. Plot is not supposed to be that specific, and more to the point, by design in an RPG they can't be. I can concede that parts of the plot can be manipulated to fit narrative choice, but they are not changed in the end because the plot is unable to change by nature of it's design. This is why the plot is "Revan dealt with the Star Forge" over "Revan destroyed the Star Forge." Dealing with it is the skeleton of the mechanics, Destroying it is the choice of the player. Your right to point out how the plot is conveyed through narrative, but this doesn't change the plots structure. It's like sculpting. The plot is your slab of marble, your chisel is your choices to form it. I can also bring up similar blogs and assessments, but they are all saying more or less the same thing with opinions on Freytag on top. ETA: Anyway, I need to sleep, work in the morning.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 8, 2019 3:49:22 GMT
Plot is not supposed to be that specific Actually, it is. Which is why I avoid using it in this kind of discussion. It has a very mechanical definition, so, has limited use in figuring out why I like or don't like a particular story. "Boy meets girl. Boy loses girt. Boy gets girl." doesn't tell me anything about whether I'll like the story or not. I don't think plot has much use in the context of video games, unless they are light novels or other book-like or movie-like experiences.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 3:50:26 GMT
The problem with describing stuff about writing is that there's never a lot of resources on hand without going flipping through books or something. Try this one though: Narrative is the choice of which events to relate and in what order to relate them – so it is a representation or specific manifestation of the story, rather than the story itself The easy way to remember the difference between story and narrative is to reshuffle the order of events. A new event order means you have a new narrative of the same story. www.beemgee.com/blog/story-vs-narrative/
As I described just a little above, the plot is the specific events. In this case HOW Revan dealt with the Star Forge. Let me give you an example - When you recite the plot of Revan you don't say "Revan dealt with the star forge". Have you ever read a summary of a book that had that as the plot? Try and pull up a plot summary of a novel and you're not going to see "and they dealt with their problems". Part of the plot would be "Revan destroyed the Star Forge", so not destroying the Star Forge is a change in the plot. The narrative is HOW the plot is conveyed. So like I said, I think the problems you're having is you're mixing plot and narrative. Which is confusing. Plot is not supposed to be that specific, and more to the point, by design in an RPG they can't be. I can concede that parts of the plot can be manipulated to fit narrative choice, but they are not changed in the end because the plot is unable to change by nature of it's design. This is why the plot is "Revan dealt with the Star Forge" over "Revan destroyed the Star Forge." Dealing with it is the skeleton of the mechanics, Destroying it is the choice of the player. Your right to point out how the plot is conveyed through narrative, but this doesn't change the plots structure. It's like sculpting. The plot is your slab of marble, your chisel is your choices to form it. I can also bring up similar blogs and assessments, but they are all saying more or less the same thing with opinions on Freytag on top. ETA: Anyway, I need to sleep, work in the morning. Do you know what one of the classic handbooks for an author is? The aspects of a novel from Forster. A book still quoted almost 100 years later. What's written inside? "The king died and then the queen died" is a story. "The king died, and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. Yes plots are meant to be that specific.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 3:57:49 GMT
Plot is not supposed to be that specific Actually, it is. Which is why I avoid using it in this kind of discussion. It has a very mechanical definition, so, has limited use in figuring out why I like or don't like a particular story. "Boy meets girl. Boy loses girt. Boy gets girl." doesn't tell me anything about whether I'll like the story or not. Sure, but it's by design not specific to the game you are playing. One thing I guess I need to make clear is that this is in the confines of in-game narrative to again, fit the design of a RPG. I don't want to be that guy who quotes himself all the time, as I hate being viewed as having an ego, but to use an example I wrote years ago: Anyway, I do need to go to bed, i'll digest replies another time.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 3:58:59 GMT
Plot is not supposed to be that specific Actually, it is. Which is why I avoid using it in this kind of discussion. It has a very mechanical definition, so, has limited use in figuring out why I like or don't like a particular story. "Boy meets girl. Boy loses girt. Boy gets girl." doesn't tell me anything about whether I'll like the story or not. I don't think plot has much use in the context of video games, unless they are light novels or other book-like or movie-like experiences. I'm not really much of a plot guy myself. Which is why things like "plot twists" never really suck me in, I much rather just read about characters rather than be surprised (once) by a twist in the plot. How they do things is always more important to me as well. Whenever I pick up a book I usually just flip straight to the middle and to see what the writing is like. I'll even read books I'm not interested in if the prose is nice. I like Gabaldon's prose, even though it's historical romance. Although anything science fantasy I'll usually pick up because technomagic for the win
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 4:27:12 GMT
Plot is not supposed to be that specific, and more to the point, by design in an RPG they can't be. I can concede that parts of the plot can be manipulated to fit narrative choice, but they are not changed in the end because the plot is unable to change by nature of it's design. This is why the plot is "Revan dealt with the Star Forge" over "Revan destroyed the Star Forge." Dealing with it is the skeleton of the mechanics, Destroying it is the choice of the player. Your right to point out how the plot is conveyed through narrative, but this doesn't change the plots structure. It's like sculpting. The plot is your slab of marble, your chisel is your choices to form it. I can also bring up similar blogs and assessments, but they are all saying more or less the same thing with opinions on Freytag on top. ETA: Anyway, I need to sleep, work in the morning. Do you know what one of the classic handbooks for an author is? The aspects of a novel from Forster. A book still quoted almost 100 years later. What's written inside? "The king died and then the queen died" is a story. "The king died, and then the queen died of grief" is a plot. Yes plots are meant to be that specific. Also ... I'm not certain those sources say what you want them to say. Take the second site you brought up, let's take their example of a plot: She kissed the frog and it turned into a crack secret agent on a mission to kidnap her as a way of creating political instability.
Isn't this incredibly specific? EDIT: I'm going to delete the rest because it doesn't address the issue. Reading the article you wrote you have confused the definition of narrative again, even going off your own sites you sourced.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 5:46:27 GMT
River82: Dear Weird Bob, why is something vague like “Revan dealt with the Star Forge” inadequate for describing the plot? Does it not describe an important event?
Weird Bob: Good question River, let me answer that for you.
Firstly it is an incomplete description of the important events. There are more important events in the game then “confronting Malak and dealing with the Star Forge”. That’s more of a spoiler free synopsis of the eventual dilemma they will have to deal with. The plot is all of the important events in a story linked by causality. Which brings me to my next point, River82
River82: No no, that’s quite all right, that’s eno-
Weird Bob: Plot emphasises not only the important events (the fall or saving of the Republic is an important event) but also the causality between the important events, and “Revan dealt with the Star Forge” isn’t detailed enough to showcase causality between the important events. “Revan dealt with the Star Forge and the Empire rose again” … what what what? How does that work? Did Revan caress the Star Forge lovingly causing the Republic to flee in terror? “Revan took over the Star Forge and used it’s infinite building capacity to smite the Republic – the empire rose again”. “Revan destroyed the Star Forge, the Republic won this battle”. In both cases causality is clearly established instead of vaguely implied.
So we need a description of the actual important events, not just 1 or 2 cherry picked ones, and for causality to be clearly established between all those events. This is descending into literary critique level of analysis River, but I hope you’re satisfied with this.
River82: ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz
Weird Bob: ...
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Post by saandrig on Mar 8, 2019 7:18:36 GMT
It's totally like DA:O guys! I hate how Dragon Age keeps retconning our choices. "Yay, I KILLED Lelianna" - Player "Ahahaha, no you really didn't. You only thought you did! Fuck your illusion of control" - Bioware They kind of threw a bone about that with the Trespasser ending slides if she didn't become Divine Victoria. I guess someone cared just a bit 😀
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Mar 8, 2019 8:00:22 GMT
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 8, 2019 8:07:04 GMT
This thread is like a Fallout skill book. I think I've gotten better at mental gymnastics (6). Everyone can check for themselves how much we've been, erm, "marketed to" before release by simply checking the Everything we know about Anthem thread. Unlockable Freelancer skills? Fast travel? Changing your Javelin on a mobile strider? Item set bonuses? At least during the demo I saw nothing of that. There's probably more. Might want to color-code those that are no longer true. Yes yes, it's pre-release hot air hype, it's to be expected that some of the announced features are going to be missing. It's to be expected that there will be a massive graphical downgrade from trailer to finished game, even if it stated that it was captured in-game in real time. That's just words, we all know that. But... All the promises (explicit and implied) about Anthem's future content are of course going to be true, hell, it's probably going to be even better than BioWare said! Why are people so eager to forget how much of the hype actually turned out to be true and refuse to apply that knowledge to promises of future content and updates?
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 8:18:27 GMT
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N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Post by correctamundo on Mar 8, 2019 8:27:10 GMT
Moving to fast for you huh?
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 8, 2019 8:35:34 GMT
Regarding the "make a new character to replay the story" thing, Final Fantasy 14 was probably in a worse situation. An MMO where you can level every single class on one character so you don't have to make a whole host of characters, and a MMO which was VERY story focused, didn't include a way to replay stories. To replay a story you had to make a new character ... which was something not needed. Recently they've stated they're adding a "new game plus" which will allow you to replay the story with your current character, but the lack of this option didn't really harm the game. It's still probably the second most played MMO (and it had a much worse launch than Anthem). I asked about this upthread but it wandered into a derail. What's the point of replaying a story with the current character? I kind of got NG+ in the ME games because you're out of game at the top level, so if you really like the high-level play you're SOL without it. (Useless for me since I think the ME games play worse at max level , but YMMV) But that doesn't seem to apply to something like Anthem. Dunno much about FF in particular; I checked out of that series a long time ago I recommend taking a look at Warframe cinematic quests. Warframe is pretty much pure loot and shoot and hack. The cinematic quests are worth it for the atmo and music alone. They are rather experiences than fetch quests.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 8:43:45 GMT
Moving to fast for you huh? Lol, fair enough. I have nothing against the game, I think it will end up tons better than Fallout 76, I think there's a base gameplay there that is incredibly fun and can be built on, I'm going to be playing it next year. I think choice and consequence is something that nobody should expect in an MMO. I think a rough start is not something as important to an MMO. That being said I'm getting very tired of being lied to. When I play Anthem I don't expect there to be choices and consequences involved in any meaningful way, that's just something we expect to give up in an MMO game. I know a delay when I see it, it isn't a product re... whatever EA called it. Because when people start lying to you, it just means I can't trust them anymore. EA Gamechanger are a bunch of people I don't trust anymore, for example. And when people don't trust anything anyone says, that's when cynicism starts running rampant, not because we LIKE being cynical, but that's just what happens when people are lied to for more than a decade by marketers. So enjoy your game, I hope it does well. Just don't try and sell it's choice and consequence system to me. I have far too much cynicism for that to work.
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Mar 8, 2019 10:15:50 GMT
Moving to fast for you huh? Lol, fair enough. I have nothing against the game, I think it will end up tons better than Fallout 76, I think there's a base gameplay there that is incredibly fun and can be built on, I'm going to be playing it next year. I think choice and consequence is something that nobody should expect in an MMO. I think a rough start is not something as important to an MMO. That being said I'm getting very tired of being lied to. When I play Anthem I don't expect there to be choices and consequences involved in any meaningful way, that's just something we expect to give up in an MMO game. I know a delay when I see it, it isn't a product re... whatever EA called it. Because when people start lying to you, it just means I can't trust them anymore. EA Gamechanger are a bunch of people I don't trust anymore, for example. And when people don't trust anything anyone says, that's when cynicism starts running rampant, not because we LIKE being cynical, but that's just what happens when people are lied to for more than a decade by marketers. So enjoy your game, I hope it does well. Just don't try and sell it's choice and consequence system to me. I have far too much cynicism for that to work. I have enjoyed your discussion with linksocarina about plot, narrative and story but the original question/point was that there was NO (as in zero, nothing etc) choice and consequence mechanics in the game. Which is clearly misinformation. Whether or not you or I like them isn't really relevant. Someone likes them, someone else doesn't. Whether or not you or I find them meaningful is equally moot. Ultimately no choice in a game has ever been meaningful. It's merely pixels. There are in game choices to make, they have in game consequences.
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