Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Mar 7, 2019 21:23:25 GMT
Hardly. Around 160 hours played across the demos and the game itself so far, this has been terrific value for the fun enjoyed so far. We're still some way off from the 1,000 hours I can put into a Mass Effect or Dragon Age, but early days. Perhaps they will build on the lessons from Anthem to make a GAAS Dragon Age 4 even better. Mine too, Sofa, mine too. However, the Biower experiences we have had since they started using the Frostshite engine aren't exactly home runs.
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Post by river82 on Mar 7, 2019 21:29:45 GMT
Regarding the "make a new character to replay the story" thing, Final Fantasy 14 was probably in a worse situation. An MMO where you can level every single class on one character so you don't have to make a whole host of characters, and a MMO which was VERY story focused, didn't include a way to replay stories. To replay a story you had to make a new character ... which was something not needed. Recently they've stated they're adding a "new game plus" which will allow you to replay the story with your current character, but the lack of this option didn't really harm the game. It's still probably the second most played MMO (and it had a much worse launch than Anthem).
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 7, 2019 21:44:20 GMT
There isn't a choice and consequence mechanic in Anthem, and it's irresponsible to mislead consumers. Again, I ask what the choices you made for Leyton were then? And I keep bringing that up because it's a textook example of BioWare style choice and consequence, with at least three outcomes to it regarding two random NPCS in that case. It is not the obly one to have two to three outcomes. You cannot claim that someone is misleading consumers when you have a half of dozen similar side stories like that in a game where your choice of dialogue actually matters. That is choice and consequence in its most basic form. You are simply wrong in your assertion here.
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Post by river82 on Mar 7, 2019 21:58:58 GMT
There isn't a choice and consequence mechanic in Anthem, and it's irresponsible to mislead consumers. Again, I ask what the choices you made for Leyton were then? And I keep bringing that up because it's a textook example of BioWare style choice and consequence, with at least three outcomes to it regarding two random NPCS in that case. It is not the obly one to have two to three outcomes. You cannot claim that someone is misleading consumers when you have a half of dozen similar side stories like that in a game where your choice of dialogue actually matters. That is choice and consequence in its most basic form. You are simply wrong in your assertion here. This reminds of when fans of Oblivion went around saying a role playing game was a game which allowed you to "play a role". Every choice in a game will have consequences. If I were to load up Tiger Wood golf and use a putter off the tee, that is a very real choice that has a consequence that actually matters. This is not, however, an example of choice and consequence the way RPG players use it. Same with NBA2k and my choice to intentionally brick every shot I take. Same with Halo and my choice to actually hit the targets. Choice and consequence refers to the mechanic where your choices have very real impacts on your story and the world you experience. The mechanic where your choices have real impacts in other characters lives you were never going to have much more involvement in any way is what's officially known as a cop-out. Is your relationship with Nadira significant enough to impact your journey, or are the consequences of your choices insignificant in almost every meaningful way story wise, and character wise. How does YOUR world change, YOUR journey change, YOUR story change due to those decisions? Meaningful? Then list them. Otherwise as an RPG player who does care for this stuff, I really don't want to hear about Anthem's "Choice and Consequences" from people who want to do nothing more than promote the game. Bioware has never been great at choice and consequences, it has never been their strong suit. The uproar over ME3 perfectly drilled that home.
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Post by river82 on Mar 7, 2019 22:16:48 GMT
And I will go one step further. The irresponsible promotion of ME3 to actively take into account the player's choices and stating how they will impact the story was part of the reason the uproar was so large. They have never been great at choice and consequences.
However they were better than they are now. KOTOR you can affect the ending (dark or light) ME3 you can affect the ending (sorta) Origins you can kinda affect the outcome, I'm pretty sure BG is the same. This shows the inclusion of choice and consequence mechanics, but if you listen to fans people don't rave about those choices. So why big yourselves up about it in ME3 when you know you've never been good at that? Weird.
Saying Anthem has choice and consequence mechanics? Do you want to invite more outrage? More disappointment? Why state a game has something it clearly doesn't? What's the point of that?
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Post by cypherj on Mar 7, 2019 22:27:01 GMT
Bioware has never been great at choice and consequences, it has never been their strong suit. The uproar over ME3 perfectly drilled that home. I think Bioware is good at choice and consequences for that moment. But aside from a few examples they never really had the courage to make people live with them, so in the end they didn't seem important. If it were me. Something like the Genophage in ME. If all your decisions leading up ME3 were against finding a cure, and you didn't keep Maelon's data. You wouldn't have been able to cure the Genophage in ME3. If you killed the Rachni queen in ME1, you would not have seen Rachni in ME3, you would have gotten some other quest chain. If you gave Cerberus the collector base, you would have had to deal with tougher, better equipped Cerberus enemies in ME3. You had an entire game based on nothing but getting a specific group of people, befriending or not befriending them and making decisions on a loyalty quest. Suicide mission, your choices decide who lives and dies. Only to have them all be able to be replaced by stand-ins during the last game. Apparently, they weren't the only ones who could do what they do. They all started out well though.
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Post by cypherj on Mar 7, 2019 22:45:50 GMT
Regarding the "make a new character to replay the story" thing, Final Fantasy 14 was probably in a worse situation. An MMO where you can level every single class on one character so you don't have to make a whole host of characters, and a MMO which was VERY story focused, didn't include a way to replay stories. To replay a story you had to make a new character ... which was something not needed. Recently they've stated they're adding a "new game plus" which will allow you to replay the story with your current character, but the lack of this option didn't really harm the game. It's still probably the second most played MMO (and it had a much worse launch than Anthem). I have two characters on FF XIV, one that is melee and tank classes, one that is Mage classes. Two different races. But the story is awesome, and well worth going through again. I also played the game at launch and its issues were somewhat different than Anthem's. FF XIV at least worked at launch, had content, and a full initial story arc at launch. The issues where pretty much with the design of everything. Which is why they had to pretty much start from scratch and create an new game. Anthem's issues are more that it doesn't work for a lot of people and they intentionally gave out bare bones content to give the rest out over time and make money off micro transactions along the way. I want to think Anthem could have the turn around that game had, but that game was remade with the main goal of giving players the game they wanted. Anthem is always going to be about monetizing as much as possible.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 7, 2019 23:17:51 GMT
Regarding the "make a new character to replay the story" thing, Final Fantasy 14 was probably in a worse situation. An MMO where you can level every single class on one character so you don't have to make a whole host of characters, and a MMO which was VERY story focused, didn't include a way to replay stories. To replay a story you had to make a new character ... which was something not needed. Recently they've stated they're adding a "new game plus" which will allow you to replay the story with your current character, but the lack of this option didn't really harm the game. It's still probably the second most played MMO (and it had a much worse launch than Anthem). I asked about this upthread but it wandered into a derail. What's the point of replaying a story with the current character? I kind of got NG+ in the ME games because you're out of game at the top level, so if you really like the high-level play you're SOL without it. (Useless for me since I think the ME games play worse at max level , but YMMV) But that doesn't seem to apply to something like Anthem. Dunno much about FF in particular; I checked out of that series a long time ago
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Post by river82 on Mar 7, 2019 23:48:12 GMT
Regarding the "make a new character to replay the story" thing, Final Fantasy 14 was probably in a worse situation. An MMO where you can level every single class on one character so you don't have to make a whole host of characters, and a MMO which was VERY story focused, didn't include a way to replay stories. To replay a story you had to make a new character ... which was something not needed. Recently they've stated they're adding a "new game plus" which will allow you to replay the story with your current character, but the lack of this option didn't really harm the game. It's still probably the second most played MMO (and it had a much worse launch than Anthem). I asked about this upthread but it wandered into a derail. What's the point of replaying a story with the current character? I kind of got NG+ in the ME games because you're out of game at the top level, so if you really like the high-level play you're SOL without it. (Useless for me since I think the ME games play worse at max level , but YMMV) But that doesn't seem to apply to something like Anthem. Dunno much about FF in particular; I checked out of that series a long time ago Dunno really. Whenever I want to play through a story again I just make a new character Like you I don't really think it's that important. You can also watch clips on youtube as well if you're just after a specific scene. Concerning FF14 I'm about to pick it up. I get the feeling it along with ESO will be keeping me busy for a long time. I love how it channels some good old FF nostalgia like their inclusion of the magitek armor. Haven't enjoyed a FF since FFX-2, but from what I've seen 14 looks pretty awesome, I think I need to get my computer upgraded first, and a new internet stable internet connection up, but in 2 weeks I think I'll be enjoying it. I'll give Anthem a go next year. It just looks like it released a bit early and lacking content, but there's plenty of updates coming this year. I'm confident it will be in a decent place in 2020 (much more confident about Anthem than Fallout 76 actually which just has some design decisions I don't think it can recover from, like the no NPC thing)
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Post by spacev3gan on Mar 7, 2019 23:53:44 GMT
There isn't a choice and consequence mechanic in Anthem, and it's irresponsible to mislead consumers. Yep, and they did advertise that to consumers:
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 0:01:08 GMT
There isn't a choice and consequence mechanic in Anthem, and it's irresponsible to mislead consumers. Yep, and they did advertise that to consumers: They're spouting a buzzword they know gets RPG players excited while at the same time know the phrase is vague enough that they can point to a small, meaningless choice and technically go "look it's in there" while RPG gamers who look for C&C look at them like they've sprouted an extra head ... a head talking nonsense. Whatever. This is why nobody pays attention to marketing anymore.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Mar 8, 2019 0:08:33 GMT
I think the Anthem "rage" and the feeling of being lied to is the accumulation of the frustrations of gamers who are done with being shown ABC and Z REAL GAME FOOTAGE just weeks before launch (NMS did this as did Destiny), but then the game launches and we only get C and maybe Z, with game breaking bugs to go along with it, and crashes. Then it starts with being told to be patient they are working on it and so on and so forth and the apologetics about how hard it is to make games and we just don't understand how it all works. I'm sure it's hard. I do not know how it works. However, gamers are the only ones who are expected to be patient and just suck it up after being sold a substandard product*. I don't know how to wire my own home with electricity, but if a professional electrician wires it, and I flip a switch and the light doesn't come on, no one will tell me I need to suck it up and then lecture me about how hard it is to be an electrician etc and I just don't understand. No. They will advise me to call the electrician back, or hire someone competent. Gaming culture and what is acceptable anymore has changed, especially after the No Man's Sky launch and I'd say Destiny 1 as well. I'm not arguing for or against it this new culture, I'm not saying BioWare lied because I've not played Anthem at all. What I'm saying is that Anthem, for a lot of gamers, is the end of the line of games that massively overhyped but under delivered.
*Not saying Anthem is a substandard product, just general thoughts on gaming culture and its shift.
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Post by bigbad on Mar 8, 2019 0:28:40 GMT
Yep, and they did advertise that to consumers: They're spouting a buzzword they know gets RPG players excited while at the same time know the phrase is vague enough that they can point to a small, meaningless choice and technically go "look it's in there" while RPG gamers who look for C&C look at them like they've sprouted an extra head ... a head talking nonsense. Whatever. This is why nobody pays attention to marketing anymore. This feels apropos:
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 0:57:15 GMT
I think the Anthem "rage" and the feeling of being lied to is the accumulation of the frustrations of gamers who are done with being shown ABC and Z REAL GAME FOOTAGE just weeks before launch (NMS did this as did Destiny), but then the game launches and we only get C and maybe Z, with game breaking bugs to go along with it, and crashes. Then it starts with being told to be patient they are working on it and so on and so forth and the apologetics about how hard it is to make games and we just don't understand how it all works. I'm sure it's hard. I do not know how it works. However, gamers are the only ones who are expected to be patient and just suck it up after being sold a substandard product*. I don't know how to wire my own home with electricity, but if a professional electrician wires it, and I flip a switch and the light doesn't come on, no one will tell me I need to suck it up and then lecture me about how hard it is to be an electrician etc and I just don't understand. No. They will advise me to call the electrician back, or hire someone competent. Gaming culture and what is acceptable anymore has changed, especially after the No Man's Sky launch and I'd say Destiny 1 as well. I'm not arguing for or against it this new culture, I'm not saying BioWare lied because I've not played Anthem at all. What I'm saying is that Anthem, for a lot of gamers, is the end of the line of games that massively overhyped but under delivered. *Not saying Anthem is a substandard product, just general thoughts on gaming culture and its shift. I'm trying to recall if this began with Killzone 2. I think it was about then gamers started to get jaded about marketing. And recently they finally admitted the dude lied on the E3 2005 presentation: Guerrilla Executive Producer Angie Smets describes the explosive, combat-filled sequence to Noclip as an "internal vision video about what first-person games could look like for the next generation." Part of the reason this video was "meant for internal use only," Smets tells Noclip, is that the shooter sequel was originally intended to launch on the weaker PlayStation 2.
Cut to a few months later, however, and former PlayStation executive Ken Kutaragi took the 2005 E3 stage to wow the crowd with teases of what to expect on the PlayStation 3 console. "We asked developers to submit content to be shown today," he told that E3 keynote crowd, and the sizzle reel that followed included Guerrilla's "internal vision" video. Guerrilla wasn't expecting it.
Smets recalls watching the video in Amsterdam via an Internet feed and hearing a PlayStation rep describe the Killzone footage as "running in real time on a PlayStation 3." "We were watching this back home, going, 'No!'" Smets says. "What did he just say? It's not true! Then we figured, nobody will believe that, because it's obvious that it's all prerendered. Then we went online, and we found that lots of people believed it." That was impossible, Smets points out, because the first PlayStation 3 kit had "just arrived" at the time of the E3 presentation. "I'm not sure if we had the first triangle rendering [running on PlayStation 3] yet!" she adds.
Guerrilla eventually spoke out about the video, particularly on an official PlayStation forum thread in 2008 in which the developer insisted that the 2005 footage was "not fake" and was absolutely developed with PlayStation 3 rendering in mind. Smets' explanation runs a bit counter to that official response, however, and we now know that the video was less about PlayStation 3 specifically—and certainly had nothing to do with expectations of how that console's architecture, including its notorious Cell processor, would impact game design. She points out that its inclusion in the PS3 sizzle reel forced the studio's hand to expand its then-modest staff, as more work was now required for PS3-caliber expectations.arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/12/guerrilla-games-finally-reveals-story-of-legendary-e3-bullshot-in-2005/I remember at the time trying to get my friends hyped for Killzone and all they responded with was "ha ha, very funny"
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 1:34:31 GMT
Again, I ask what the choices you made for Leyton were then? And I keep bringing that up because it's a textook example of BioWare style choice and consequence, with at least three outcomes to it regarding two random NPCS in that case. It is not the obly one to have two to three outcomes. You cannot claim that someone is misleading consumers when you have a half of dozen similar side stories like that in a game where your choice of dialogue actually matters. That is choice and consequence in its most basic form. You are simply wrong in your assertion here. This reminds of when fans of Oblivion went around saying a role playing game was a game which allowed you to "play a role". Every choice in a game will have consequences. If I were to load up Tiger Wood golf and use a putter off the tee, that is a very real choice that has a consequence that actually matters. This is not, however, an example of choice and consequence the way RPG players use it. Same with NBA2k and my choice to intentionally brick every shot I take. Same with Halo and my choice to actually hit the targets. Choice and consequence refers to the mechanic where your choices have very real impacts on your story and the world you experience. The mechanic where your choices have real impacts in other characters lives you were never going to have much more involvement in any way is what's officially known as a cop-out. Is your relationship with Nadira significant enough to impact your journey, or are the consequences of your choices insignificant in almost every meaningful way story wise, and character wise. How does YOUR world change, YOUR journey change, YOUR story change due to those decisions? Meaningful? Then list them. Otherwise as an RPG player who does care for this stuff, I really don't want to hear about Anthem's "Choice and Consequences" from people who want to do nothing more than promote the game. Bioware has never been great at choice and consequences, it has never been their strong suit. The uproar over ME3 perfectly drilled that home. It changes through narrative like always, not plot. It's always been about narrative deviation and there is a massive distincton between the two. The narratives beat changes for Pindrel, Nadira, Leyton et. All in visual ways (through changes in world or attitude) and through story beats. It is, again, textbook narrative choice. There is no difference between them compared to say the Landsmeet in Origins, or dealing with Saren or Sarevok and so on. The only tangible thing we can point to is the size of the events and what they do with the narrative, but they ultimately are impotent to the plot. No RPG game from bioware fits your definition of what choice and consequence is. They always changed narrative elements vs plot elements. So honestly, I'm not sure what your looking for here since bioware has never given a deviation to the story, only world experience. What your looking for is rare and not BioWare style.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 1:45:33 GMT
They always changed narrative elements vs plot elements. This is false. Also yes what we are looking for is uncommon, so we would appreciate companies not flinging the phrase around when it doesn't apply.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 1:50:48 GMT
They always changed narrative elements vs plot elements. This is false. Also yes what we are looking for is uncommon, so we would appreciate companies not flinging the phrase around when it doesn't apply. It is not false. Name me one example of BioWare doing so.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 1:57:49 GMT
This is false. Also yes what we are looking for is uncommon, so we would appreciate companies not flinging the phrase around when it doesn't apply. It is not false. Name me one example of BioWare doing so. Easily. Any game Bioware offers that includes different endings (and there have been quite a few) is a game where you can affect the outcome of the plot (a story's main events, of which the ending definitely applies).
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 2:11:52 GMT
Anyway what does choice and consequence do for a player? Meaningful choices helps establish the illusion of control a player feels they have over their character, giving us the feeling we can affect the story, the world, and our character's future through the choices we make.
Affecting the lives of meaningless NPC#20235 does absolutely zilch for establishing an illusion of control.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 8, 2019 2:18:55 GMT
This is false. Also yes what we are looking for is uncommon, so we would appreciate companies not flinging the phrase around when it doesn't apply. It is not false. Name me one example of BioWare doing so. It's totally like DA:O guys!
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 2:24:32 GMT
It is not false. Name me one example of BioWare doing so. It's totally like DA:O guys! I hate how Dragon Age keeps retconning our choices. "Yay, I KILLED Lelianna" - Player "Ahahaha, no you really didn't. You only thought you did! Fuck your illusion of control" - Bioware
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 8, 2019 2:29:35 GMT
Bioware has never been great at choice and consequences, it has never been their strong suit To me, this is far more important than the misleading consumers argument. Yes, I agree that the ME3 RGB endings fiasco was a direct consequence of overselling the idea that "player decisions have meaningful consequences." I think every word of that quoted line, except for 'players', was hype. Dangerous hype, to your point. While I think a lot of this argument is more a matter of degree than a matter of truth/lie, there is a problem at the core that is undeniable. Bioware games (exclusive of Anthem), since at least ME1, and maybe even before, have been narrative driven. Traditional beginning/middle/ending dramatic narrative, which Bioware has been really good at, is antithetical to player agency. Essentially, a writer can't control the arc of a story if a player can bugger off and do whatever they want. And that's the rub. While Bioware stories also include a lot of choices and decisions that impact relationships, or even a planet's worth of Batarians, none of those changes impact the narrative. If you are the Chosen One that is going to save the world/galaxy, you are still the Chosen One who is going to save the world/galaxy at the end of the day. You may turn out to be a saint or an asshole, in terms of your relationship/karma status, and you may or may not have knocked boots with one or more aliens, but you're locked into that role of the savior no matter what you do. Now, contrast this with either Skyrim or Fallout 3. Those games really do support player agency and you really can bugger off and screw the narrative. It's entirely possible in Skyrim (I've done it in several runs) to never become the Dovahkiin. Dragons? Who needs 'em? Apart from the prologue, you need never see them again. Because the game lets you flip the finger to the main quest and leave it behind, if you want to. And guess what? As a consequence, Skyrim and Fallout 3 narrative is weak, in comparison to DAO or ME3, respectively. So, yeah, I essentially agree that Bioware really ought to stop pushing meaningful decisions mechanics as a thing they do, because they'd rather control the narrative. Yes, they let you decide some very specific things (reputation, relationships, background world state that has no essential bearing on the narrative, etc.), but don't let you break out of the story they are trying to tell. I'd find it more acceptable if they festooned it with qualifications: meaningful decisions over your relationships, meaningful consequences over your reputation, etc.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 8, 2019 2:35:47 GMT
It is not false. Name me one example of BioWare doing so. Easily. Any game Bioware offers that includes different endings (and there have been quite a few) is a game where you can affect the outcome of the plot (a story's main events, of which the ending definitely applies). One problem though is the endings are not indicative of aspects to the plot, just being the overall conclusion of it. Endings are just resolution of the whole story, the plot doesn't really change with different endings, the story does somewhat. Now why am I bringing that into this? It's not to move goalposts, but to explain differences between the three. Story refers to the order of events. Plot refers to how key events relate to each other, and Narrative refers to the building blocks of the Plot, the details of it. So what you cite above, from KoToR, is narrative changes to accomodate the primary events of the overall plot to complete the story, versus changes to the overall plot to fit a separate story. The story of KoToR is the story of Revan. The plot of KoToR is to confront Malak and deal with the Star Forge. The Narrative of KoToR is the choice between Light and Dark side. The example you put above are emblematic of that all, as the plot of KoToR is stopping Malak and dealing with the Star Forge does not change, only personal motivations (narrative choice) does. So this does not change plot elements which are etched and you follow. It changes narrative elements, what path you follow to the resolution. BioWare has been pulling this trick since Baldur's Gate, you never had full control over any of their games primary plot beats. In all honesty, a lot of RPG's don't do that, they instead give the illusion of it, such as using endling slides, in-game changes, whatever techniques that work to simulate plot changes but are really just narrative beats. It's at best, illusion of choice and consequence, the barebones of any RPG mechanics. One can argue BioWare is not doing the illusion well anymore, but to say they are misleading people is ultimately an incorrect statement as they are doing the same techniques they have done for years. As to what it does for the player, it's playing into that illusion, sure, but you ultimately have no power over anything no matter how hard you think you do. Believing you do is a false sense of control, like a tabletop GM who gives the illusion of choice to their players. It's the same exact trick, it just feeds self gratification despite all of the artifice if done well.
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Lebanese Dude
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 8, 2019 2:42:58 GMT
Now which of those two is more likely to be considered as dishonest should it turn out that the final product is significantly different from the trailer? Both of those statement are often honest though. Thing is, when developers say “this is subject to change” many people these days will simply seize on that and say “aha! This means this is all bullshit and we shouldn’t trust it!” People react the same way if developers pepper their speech with “maybes” and “plans”. So it seems like a no win scenario. I think the best scenario is to stop putting out so much information out there before release.
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Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 2:43:44 GMT
Easily. Any game Bioware offers that includes different endings (and there have been quite a few) is a game where you can affect the outcome of the plot (a story's main events, of which the ending definitely applies). One problem though is the endings are not indicative of aspects to the plot, just being the overall conclusion of it. Endings are just resolution of the whole story, the plot doesn't really change with different endings, the story does somewhat. Now why am I bringing that into this? It's not to move goalposts, but to explain differences between the three. Story refers to the order of events. Plot refers to how key events relate to each other, and Narrative refers to the building blocks of the Plot, the details of it. So what you cite above, from KoToR, is narrative changes to accomodate the primary events of the overall plot to complete the story, versus changes to the overall plot to fit a separate story. The story of KoToR is the story of Revan. The plot of KoToR is to confront Malak and deal with the Star Forge. The Narrative of KoToR is the choice between Light and Dark side. The example you put above are emblematic of that all, as the plot of KoToR is stopping Malak and dealing with the Star Forge does not change, only personal motivations (narrative choice) does. So this is does not change plot elements which are etched and you follow. It changes narrative elements, what path you follow to the resolution. BioWare has been pulling this trick since Baldur's Gate, you never had full control over any of their games primary plot beats. In all honesty, a lot of RPG's don't do that, they instead give the illusion of it, such as using endling slides, in-game changes, whatever techniques that work to simulate plot changes but are really just narrative beats. It's at best, illusion of choice and consequence, the barebones of any RPG mechanics. One can argue BioWare is not doing the illusion well anymore, but to say they are misleading people is ultimately an incorrect statement as they are doing the same techniques they have done since Baldur's Gate. As to what it does for the player, it's playing into that illusion, sure, but you ultimately have no power over anything no matter how hard you think you do. Believing you do is a false sense of control, like a tabletop GM who gives the illusion of choice to their players. It's the same exact trick, it just feeds self gratification despite all of the artifice if done well. Incorrect, the plot is the main points of the story and how they relate to each other of which the ending (and in KOTOR's example the climax) is a part (mostly depending, but in KOTOR's case certainly). The story is the whole. When KOTOR changed the ending, it changed the plot. We can go into detail about this if you'd like, I know you know a lot about this, but I wonder if you know just how much I know about this. Let's start off with the basic elements of plot and go from there: Anyway, to say that the plot is to deal with Star Forge, and the decision of whether to destroy the Star Forge or not is related to story and not plot is quite a bit disingenuous.
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