mgsmsc
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 2, 2019 23:04:58 GMT
Keep in mind that Jason doesn't even hides that he's mostly interviewed people who have some level of grievance with the studio - I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems, as most game dev studios do, and they have to deal with them, but if one interviews mostly people with bones to pick with studio or leadership, the picture that emerges will be skewed towards whatever narrative one intends to paint. In the very article it is mentioned that games like Last Of Us had rocky development and unhappy devs (quote: "Some of the best video games in history, like The Last of Us, came out of rocky development cycles in which many of the staff felt like they were screwed until everything coalesced at the last minute." <- wait, so is Naughty Dog also believing in "Bioware magic" or are you trying to tell us that this is an industry-wide problem?), but because the game launched to universal acclaim no journalist went out of his/her way to find people ready to air their dirty laundry about unhappy times during development. So perhaps we should put two and two together and get five. We have witnesses (devs) and a victim (the game) but you're suggesting the former employees aren't credible? Their grievance with BioWare is perfectly reasonable, saving some conspiracy, that doesn't undermine their accounts. Your spot on. People are far less likely to pick holes in a product they like. If Anthem was launched to high critical acclaim, I doubt the odd stressed former employee would garner much attention. However, at some point it would be a topic of media interest as the level of burnout industry wide is a story waiting for an audience. From what I've heard from family and read elsewhere, the increased pressure on employees transcends any one industry. It is rife. The consistent demands for increased margins often comes at the expense of people on the ground - restructuring so one persons job today is like 1.5-2 jobs a decade ago. All this combined with EAs financial expectations, tools not fit for purpose, a disintegrating corporate culture and this is what you get. The gaming industry should be progressing on all fronts but IMO it's increasing popularity has not always translated into better products, especially in BioWares case. There are no valid excuses. There is only incompetence. That comes from the leadership. I hope whoever is calling the shots from here on out at least manages to create some level of organisation and a decent culture for everyone in the company to be at their best.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Apr 2, 2019 23:13:55 GMT
Jesus Christ, what a disaster. If BioWare was gone I don't think I would even care anymore, they haven't been delivering for years now, but these poor workers would suffer the most. They have to come with something better than this pile of shit of a game, even Andromeda was far better.
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Post by isaidlunch on Apr 2, 2019 23:16:39 GMT
Disgusting. The one thing that sticks out for me is that Casey scrapped DA4 and is responsible for Laidlaw leaving. Just wtf.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 23:21:51 GMT
Disgusting. The one thing that sticks out for me is that Casey scrapped DA4 and is responsible for Laidlaw leaving. Just wtf. He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison?
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xrayspex73
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 2, 2019 23:22:31 GMT
I think this pretty much confirms that DA4 is going to be a games as a service nightmare built on Frostbite.
I am crestfallen and sad about what became of Bioware. I wonder what the loading screens are going to look like in DA4.
I don't see how a game developer can openly complain about struggling with a specific engine for 3 straight games and they continue to use it.
EA's greed over not wanting to pay licensing of far superior engines or allowing Bioware to create their own is killing every single Bioware game.
DA4 is going to be terrible and likely the last game Bioware ever releases.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 23:22:35 GMT
Keep in mind that Jason doesn't even hides that he's mostly interviewed people who have some level of grievance with the studio - I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems, as most game dev studios do, and they have to deal with them, but if one interviews mostly people with bones to pick with studio or leadership, the picture that emerges will be skewed towards whatever narrative one intends to paint. In the very article it is mentioned that games like Last Of Us had rocky development and unhappy devs (quote: "Some of the best video games in history, like The Last of Us, came out of rocky development cycles in which many of the staff felt like they were screwed until everything coalesced at the last minute." <- wait, so is Naughty Dog also believing in "Bioware magic" or are you trying to tell us that this is an industry-wide problem?), but because the game launched to universal acclaim no journalist went out of his/her way to find people ready to air their dirty laundry about unhappy times during development. So perhaps we should put two and two together and get five. We have witnesses (devs) and a victim (the game) but you're suggesting the former employees aren't credible? Their grievance with BioWare is perfectly reasonable, saving some conspiracy, that doesn't undermine their accounts. Your spot on. People are far less likely to pick holes in a product they like. If Anthem was launched to high critical acclaim, I doubt the odd stressed former employee would garner much attention. However, at some point it would be a topic of media interest as the level of burnout industry wide is a story waiting for an audience. From what I've heard from family and read elsewhere, the increased pressure on employees transcends any one industry. It is rife. The consistent demands for increased margins often comes at the expense of people on the ground - restructuring so one persons job today is like 1.5-2 jobs a decade ago. All this combined with EAs financial expectations, tools not fit for purpose, a disintegrating corporate culture and this is what you get. The gaming industry should be progressing on all fronts but IMO it's increasing popularity has not always translated into better products, especially in BioWares case. There are no valid excuses. There is only incompetence. That comes from the leadership. I hope whoever is calling the shots from here on out at least manages to create some level of organisation and a decent culture for everyone in the company to be at their best. I'm sorry, but is "I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems" invisible in my previous comment that you seem to have missed it? There's a difference in saying 'these people aren't credible sources' and 'the picture may be skewed too much on the negative, especially given what we know about general game development woes even from that article alone'. I mean, it's like both paragraphs I've made are treated as if they're separate entities from one another, or two issues are separated from one another. You yourself said that we should put two and two together and the very article itself mentions similar practices and similarly aggrieved developers during developments of games that ultimately didn't turn out to be victims but big successes - so that means that the picture may be a little more complicated than the offered thesis, which includes Bioware wanting to try something new, which is indeed not an easy thing and stumbling with the 'new' part, which is not unheard of in this industry. Regardless, we shall see what will happen next. Even with the doom and gloom in the article, Schreier makes it seem like BW is optimistic about turning things around.
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Post by CHRrOME on Apr 2, 2019 23:23:44 GMT
Well, if Glassdoor reviews are to be believed, what does it make of all the Glassdooor reviews that paint other studios in bad light and what does it mean for them? Glassdoor reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt by themselves, which they were when they appeared about Bioware. But the cries about Edmonton's arrogance is slowly rising to a crescendo, there's beginning to be too many to ignore. But on this forum people regularly believe CD Projekt's glassdoor reviews about how horrible the crunch is at this studio, so why not with Bioware? If people on this forum criticise CD Projekt, why not the same when Bioware drives its employees to mental breakdowns? I was going to point Glassdoor as yet another deja vù. Beat me to it. I think the reviews are correct. With Bioware we kinda have proof if Shreier is to be believed (which I do believe him, I may not like the man, but he's good at his job). As for CDPR, they probably are too. Having a job at the gaming industry is hardly nice, and there surely are hundreds of other companies with the same issues. The problem is that with BW this ain't new, this goes all the way back to 2016 or earlier, and it is causing massive problems for the company. They need to understand and tackle the bad management they have at their company, it can very well be their downfall.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 2, 2019 23:24:06 GMT
Disgusting. The one thing that sticks out for me is that Casey scrapped DA4 and is responsible for Laidlaw leaving. Just wtf. He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison?
They killed off the singleplayer DA4. Morrison is going to be GaaSy.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 23:25:05 GMT
So perhaps we should put two and two together and get five. We have witnesses (devs) and a victim (the game) but you're suggesting the former employees aren't credible? Their grievance with BioWare is perfectly reasonable, saving some conspiracy, that doesn't undermine their accounts. Your spot on. People are far less likely to pick holes in a product they like. If Anthem was launched to high critical acclaim, I doubt the odd stressed former employee would garner much attention. However, at some point it would be a topic of media interest as the level of burnout industry wide is a story waiting for an audience. From what I've heard from family and read elsewhere, the increased pressure on employees transcends any one industry. It is rife. The consistent demands for increased margins often comes at the expense of people on the ground - restructuring so one persons job today is like 1.5-2 jobs a decade ago. All this combined with EAs financial expectations, tools not fit for purpose, a disintegrating corporate culture and this is what you get. The gaming industry should be progressing on all fronts but IMO it's increasing popularity has not always translated into better products, especially in BioWares case. There are no valid excuses. There is only incompetence. That comes from the leadership. I hope whoever is calling the shots from here on out at least manages to create some level of organisation and a decent culture for everyone in the company to be at their best. I'm sorry, but is "I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems" invisible in my previous comment that you seem to have missed it? There's a difference in saying 'these people aren't credible sources' and 'the picture may be skewed too much on the negative, especially given what we know about general game development woes even from that article alone'. I mean, it's like both paragraphs I've made are treated as if they're separate entities from one another, or two issues are separated from one another. You yourself said that we should put two and two together and the very article itself mentions similar practices and similarly aggrieved developers during developments of games that ultimately didn't turn out to be victims but big successes - so that means that the picture may be a little more complicated than the offered thesis, which includes Bioware wanting to try something new, which is indeed not an easy thing and stumbling with the 'new' part, which is not unheard of in this industry. Regardless, we shall see what will happen next. Even with the doom and gloom in the article, Schreier makes it seem like BW is optimistic about turning things around. Well they have a good install base and a good gameplay base for a game. They just need more time. Fortunately this sort of live service game grants them a fair bit of time so they should be able to turn things around in about a year or two
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Post by isaidlunch on Apr 2, 2019 23:27:25 GMT
Disgusting. The one thing that sticks out for me is that Casey scrapped DA4 and is responsible for Laidlaw leaving. Just wtf. He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison? Yet it was enough to make the Creative Director leave and for Bioware employees to make ominous tweets about the future of the series. I don't like the sound of this "reboot".
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 2, 2019 23:29:36 GMT
He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison? Yet it was enough to make the Creative Director leave and for Bioware employees to make ominous tweets about the future of the series. I don't like the sound of this "reboot". I'd have done the same thing given the circumstances though. You need to make tough calls when in a situation that severe. Hell, without those tough calls they got into that situation with Anthem thabks to the leadership from 2014 to 2016.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 23:31:07 GMT
He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison? They killed off the singleplayer DA4. Morrison is going to be GaaSy.
Every single DA game to date had some form of GaaS. GaaS doesn't mean 'no singleplayer', as demonstrated by the last two Assassin's Creed titles. I don't think these games even have a multiplayer.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 2, 2019 23:38:38 GMT
They killed off the singleplayer DA4. Morrison is going to be GaaSy.
Every single DA game to date had some form of GaaS. GaaS doesn't mean 'no singleplayer', as demonstrated by the last two Assassin's Creed titles. I don't think these games even have a multiplayer. And yet it's becoming more and more central to the games.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 23:42:27 GMT
Every single DA game to date had some form of GaaS. GaaS doesn't mean 'no singleplayer', as demonstrated by the last two Assassin's Creed titles. I don't think these games even have a multiplayer. And yet it's becoming more and more central to the games. ...And?
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Apr 2, 2019 23:45:43 GMT
Every single DA game to date had some form of GaaS. GaaS doesn't mean 'no singleplayer', as demonstrated by the last two Assassin's Creed titles. I don't think these games even have a multiplayer. And yet it's becoming more and more central to the games. Which games? Because in AC Origins/Odyssey case you can finish the whole campaign without bothering to buy anything in the store.
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Post by The Elder King on Apr 2, 2019 23:45:57 GMT
He didn't scrap DA4. He scrapped one version (I believe) and rebooted it as Morrison?
They killed off the singleplayer DA4. Morrison is going to be GaaSy.
I doubt DA4 as it was in Morrison wouldn’t have had MP, since we already had it in DAI under Laidlaw. And Inquisition fits the GaaS description. Whether DA4 will be like DAI or Anthem, we’d have to wait and see. I am worried howewer on DA4 because of the scrapping of the former project, and how some tweets referred to still been hurting from that. Hopefully the team would manage to pull something good off...with a much better development process then the recent ones.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 2, 2019 23:49:00 GMT
Every single DA game to date had some form of GaaS. GaaS doesn't mean 'no singleplayer', as demonstrated by the last two Assassin's Creed titles. I don't think these games even have a multiplayer. And yet it's becoming more and more central to the games. I don't expect Dragon Age to deviate so far as to become "Anthem Age". The market for the DA franchise is probably the most SP-focused of all their ongoing franchises. MP never took off for DA like it did for ME, even after giving away DA:I for free to play MP, so they have hard data (as opposed to just "internet noise") that a MP-centric game would be a huge risk. It's not to say they might just... do it anyways, as a kind of a Hail Mary move, but the safer bet for DA (IMO) would be adopt the Assassin's Creed model for the SP game, and have a separate MP. Though they may try ways of tying it to the SP more strongly than they did in DA:I.
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xrayspex73
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 2, 2019 23:56:15 GMT
And yet it's becoming more and more central to the games. Which games? Because in AC Origins/Odyssey case you can finish the whole campaign without bothering to buy anything in the store.
Difference is that you can play AC:Odyssey completely offline (just the store doesn't work). I am all for them having some sort of multiplayer mode through which they can do their live service, but not at the expense of the singleplayer OFFLINE game.
I am someone who goes back and plays 20 year old games. How many of these live service games will be playable in 20, hell even 10 years from now? I hate the thought that once EA pulls the plug, you can no longer experience the game you payed $60+ dollars on.
Ideally, DA4 will have an offline singleplayer mode and a multiplayer side that is separate. Just like DAI, but with a more robust multiplayer side that they can get their post-release monetization income from.
Mark my words, this is not how DA4 will be. It will be online only just like Anthem, but with swords and boards. Oh, and the no audio bug will still be there in DA4.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Apr 2, 2019 23:59:10 GMT
Also, you gotta love the people calling Jason unfair and whatnot, while mentioning the much enjoyment they got out of the game, you people shill for a studio that accepted putting this dumpster fire of a game while fucking over the very people that worked their ass off to pull something together for its daddy, but nah, "I enjoyed the game, it's great, these are haters" and shit.
Great attitude!
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 3, 2019 0:02:06 GMT
They killed off the singleplayer DA4. Morrison is going to be GaaSy.
I doubt DA4 as it was in Morrison wouldn’t have had MP, since we already had it in DAI under Laidlaw. And Inquisition fits the GaaS description. Whether DA4 will be like DAI or Anthem, we’d have to wait and see. I am worried howewer on DA4 because of the scrapping of the former project, and how some tweets referred to still been hurting from that. Hopefully the team would manage to pull something good off...with a much better development process then the recent ones. Yes, but pivots and shifts that 'hurt' the project (in some people's assessment at least) is something that happens during game development and in creative fields all the time, as the very article has pointed out, so you can never guarantee that the project will go smoothly at all times or there won't be hard feelings somewhere along the line, even if the problems are entirely unrelated to things we now discuss.
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Post by mmoblitz on Apr 3, 2019 0:02:43 GMT
If the reports are accurate and I believe they are, that is two games in a row now for Bioware that came together in the last 18 months or so with 5 to 6 yrs development windows. Doesn't bode well for DA4.
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 3, 2019 0:04:25 GMT
So perhaps we should put two and two together and get five. We have witnesses (devs) and a victim (the game) but you're suggesting the former employees aren't credible? Their grievance with BioWare is perfectly reasonable, saving some conspiracy, that doesn't undermine their accounts. Your spot on. People are far less likely to pick holes in a product they like. If Anthem was launched to high critical acclaim, I doubt the odd stressed former employee would garner much attention. However, at some point it would be a topic of media interest as the level of burnout industry wide is a story waiting for an audience. From what I've heard from family and read elsewhere, the increased pressure on employees transcends any one industry. It is rife. The consistent demands for increased margins often comes at the expense of people on the ground - restructuring so one persons job today is like 1.5-2 jobs a decade ago. All this combined with EAs financial expectations, tools not fit for purpose, a disintegrating corporate culture and this is what you get. The gaming industry should be progressing on all fronts but IMO it's increasing popularity has not always translated into better products, especially in BioWares case. There are no valid excuses. There is only incompetence. That comes from the leadership. I hope whoever is calling the shots from here on out at least manages to create some level of organisation and a decent culture for everyone in the company to be at their best. I'm sorry, but is "I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems" invisible in my previous comment that you seem to have missed it? There's a difference in saying 'these people aren't credible sources' and 'the picture may be skewed too much on the negative, especially given what we know about general game development woes even from that article alone'. I mean, it's like both paragraphs I've made are treated as if they're separate entities from one another, or two issues are separated from one another. You yourself said that we should put two and two together and the very article itself mentions similar practices and similarly aggrieved developers during developments of games that ultimately didn't turn out to be victims but big successes - so that means that the picture may be a little more complicated than the offered thesis, which includes Bioware wanting to try something new, which is indeed not an easy thing and stumbling with the 'new' part, which is not unheard of in this industry. Regardless, we shall see what will happen next. Even with the doom and gloom in the article, Schreier makes it seem like BW is optimistic about turning things around. Thankyou for your reply, no apology necessary. I'm sure that I am looking at this in a black/white sort of way and when I see the mention of grievance or a negative narrative (somewhat grey,) I respond by asking what the alternative interpretation could be. I read both your paragraphs a few times, I wouldn't trouble you with a response otherwise. The scientist in me is somewhat reductionist but it was not my intent to be completely deconstructive. I agree the complexities (the company breaking new ground) resulting in Anthems lack of success are certainly the difference between it and the good outcomes mentioned for other titles but that isn't really a justification for the way some in the industry execute rush jobs. My intention was to highlight staffing levels and corporate culture in a popular industry - that has an opportunity to fix the roof while the sun is shining. For me the article is less doom and gloom and more a harsh reality that exists in many businesses/services.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Apr 3, 2019 0:07:42 GMT
At this point I don't know what to say, EA gave 5 years for Andromeda and 7 years for Anthem and this is what happened...
"One former BioWare developer told me they would frequently find a private room in the office, shut the door, and just cry."
This needs to fucking end, BioWare should also reboot itself.
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Post by Superhik on Apr 3, 2019 0:08:40 GMT
Anthem was always envisioned as an online multiplayer game, according to developers who worked on it, but it wasn’t always a loot shooter, the kind of game where you’d endlessly grind missions for new weapons. In these early versions, the idea was that you’d embark from a city and go out on expeditions with your friends, staying out in the world as long as you could survive. You’d use a robotic exosuit, and you’d fight monsters with melee and shooting attacks, but the focus was less on hoarding loot and more on seeing how long you could survive. One mission, for example, might take you and a squad to the center of a volcano, where you’d have to figure out why it was erupting, kill some creatures, and then fight your way back. “That was the main hook,” said an Anthem developer. “We’re going out as a team, going to try to accomplish something as a team, then come back and talk about it.” Along the way, you could scavenge or salvage alien ships for parts and bring them back to your base in order to upgrade your weapons or enhance your suit.That sounds ... really dull to me. Could just be me though It would definitely stand out a bit more, in current market. Tho gods know how Bioware would handle survival mechanics. And it kind of makes sense for more "party experience", struggle of surviving together in hostile environment, instead of this MMO "Let's blow shit up with ultra combos".
Question for people who know about this: so what was that first E3 gameplay reveal? Completely "faked"/no one was actually playing it? How do you put something like that?
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Post by Superhik on Apr 3, 2019 0:19:58 GMT
Also pick a better bloody name for your future projects. Project Dio has a nice ring to it.
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