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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 19, 2019 23:49:25 GMT
I've always though the Leviathan made the most sense for a follow up enemy. They're just sitting there! The entire reason the Catalyst was created was to stop synthetics from destroying organics because it interfered with the other races giving tribute. Once that problem is solved, the Leviathan should theoretically swoop in and attempt to regain control over the galaxy. I could see them being a threat in ME5/6 No no no do not give bioware the idea of more reapers coming back. They need to move forward with a new enemy or the levithean rather then the reapers. That wasn't meant to be a jerk toward you it's just that idea sent chills down my spine since I can totally see bioware bringing out the next ME game and saying we didn't kill all the reapers and having them come back.
Also were those the only levithean left or were there more. I can't remember that dlc that well.
The reapers could still be a threat even after being destroyed. That is why Shepard will travel to darkspace to make sure they're no longer a threat.
I could see species within the Milky Way being a threat. After the reapers have been destroyed, a few people hear rumors that the reapers could have been dealt with earlier preventing a lot of the deaths. This angers them. What happens is they start recruiting others for their cause to seek revenge against their governments. Over time their numbers grow. They eventually settle on a planet to plot their revenge. On the planet they find an abandoned military base. There are a few dead reapers. They use the parts from them to build up any supplies they will need for their attack. As the main character, your job is to find out if it's true and do what you can to stop the uprising before it starts.
So if they are coming back in ME5 then they will be out in the next game. hehe
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Post by Iakus on Apr 20, 2019 1:26:07 GMT
If you want to keep the Reapers fighting as ambush predators, we'd need to change space combat lore and Reaper capabilities a bit. The way ME1 established things, planets are simply not defensible. Anyone with a bunch of dreadnoughts who wants to can blow up a biosphere. (The trans-relay assault Codex entry is a great example of what not to do.) If the Reapers couldn't beat the Citadel fleets in a stand-up fight, they wouldn't have to get into one. Just give every planet the Bekenstein treatment until the galactic economy collapses. Well, Vigil kinda confirms that: "Some worlds were utterly destroyed." Plus evidence of old civilizations that were wiped out in worldwide cataclysms when you scan some planets.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 20, 2019 1:29:52 GMT
Weaken them a bit so that a fleet of ships could take one down, with significant losses. The fight against sovereign was all about the SR1, along with 2 fighters, one on each side, to fire the killshot. Even after the reaper's shield's were disabled, it still wasn't taking any damage. I believe they do have a weakness, their backside. How many times did it show a reaper getting attacked from behind? During the battle of Palaven, the turians were able to destroy several capital ships before they could turn around to fire back. Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships. Do you think that would make a difference? You said it yourself that the fleets would get wiped out when facing about 100 reapers that are seen over Earth. I'm sure you remember that post. What makes you believe that the galaxy would have a chance against hundreds? -And Saren had a geth arm the whole time an no one noticed. Upgrade the graphics and cinematics to show Sovereign taking damage from other sources. -Okay that's a good start -Without Shepard doing something appropriately heroic? No. But then this is (supposedly) an RPG, not a RTS We are not the Terrans, they are not the zerg. The goal here is to create a situation where the galaxy could plausibly hold out long enough for Our Hero to triumph. Not simply have the Reaper invasion act all incompetent because the plot demands they slow down.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 20, 2019 1:35:45 GMT
Weaken them a bit so that a fleet of ships could take one down, with significant losses. Give them actual exploitable weaknesses (like being stunned when one of their sock puppets is destroyed, something conveniently patched out as of ME3). Reduce their numbers to hundreds rather than hundreds of thousands Remember, in ME1, Reapers were AMBUSH PREDATORS. They relied on striking unexpectedly and decapitating the leadership and shutting down the relay network before beginning to harvest the galaxy. There must have been a reason for that. And Vigil even gave voice to it: Sovereign was powerful BUT NOT INVINCIBLE! The Reapers COULN'T take on the whole galaxy at once without sustaining unacceptable losses. That concept was a joke by the end of the trilogy. I can't remember exactly what was said in the codex but it said something about why soverigns shields fell when saren died. I can't remember it but to me it sounded like soverign invested too much of himself in saren in order to fight shepard like he did and when shepard killed saren it caused soverign to have a "glitch" Reaper Vulnerabilities Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.
In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.
The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.
The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.
Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 20, 2019 19:41:04 GMT
one of the reasons that Reapers use sneak attacks. for Reapers are highly dangerous yet not invicible
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Post by themikefest on Apr 20, 2019 21:31:52 GMT
-Without Shepard doing something appropriately heroic? No. But then this is (supposedly) an RPG, not a RTS We are not the Terrans, they are not the zerg. The goal here is to create a situation where the galaxy could plausibly hold out long enough for Our Hero to triumph. Not simply have the Reaper invasion act all incompetent because the plot demands they slow down. Shepard has nothing to do with the reapers numbers. I agree the reapers were made incompetent, but I would add the galaxy, especially the Alliance were incompetent as well. Don't know anything about the terrans and zerg that you mention.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 20, 2019 22:39:07 GMT
If you want to keep the Reapers fighting as ambush predators, we'd need to change space combat lore and Reaper capabilities a bit. The way ME1 established things, planets are simply not defensible. Anyone with a bunch of dreadnoughts who wants to can blow up a biosphere. (The trans-relay assault Codex entry is a great example of what not to do.) If the Reapers couldn't beat the Citadel fleets in a stand-up fight, they wouldn't have to get into one. Just give every planet the Bekenstein treatment until the galactic economy collapses. Well, Vigil kinda confirms that: "Some worlds were utterly destroyed." Plus evidence of old civilizations that were wiped out in worldwide cataclysms when you scan some planets. Right. My point is that without changing the lore, increasing the Citadel forces' strength relative to the Reapers will make the Reaper assault go faster, not slower, assuming rational Reaper behavior. If the Reapers aren't completely and justifiably confident in their ability to hover over Earth and Palaven for ten years, they can bomb them flat in ten hours and move on. The only way to slow the Reapers down is to be weak enough for them to not really be concerned with how fast they defeat you, and treat the operation as a harvest rather than as a war. Most of ME3 actually makes sense if the Reaper priority is maximizing harvesting, rather than defeating Citadel forces. (Note that the Crucible is the only thing which makes the Reapers alter their strategy, although they experience a couple of tactical reverses.)To the extent that ME3 has a problem with Reaper competence, it's that they take any losses at all. If a battle isn't going to be a curbstomp, they shouldn't fight it. Of course, they are allowed to have bad intel from time to time. As for how to change the lore, there's not much that can be done to make planets defensible if a fleet gets anywhere near them, Something could be done to make trans-relay assaults dangerous for the attacker. As it stands now, drift helps an attacker by making it harder for a defensive fleet or a minefield on the far side of the relay to actually have a firing solution on the arriving attacking fleet. Once fleets are in your cluster, intercepting them is conceptually almost impossible since there are no FTL sensors. Maybe give the Reapers drive charge limitations ? They could theoretically be caught at discharge points.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 20, 2019 22:48:01 GMT
Well, Vigil kinda confirms that: "Some worlds were utterly destroyed." Plus evidence of old civilizations that were wiped out in worldwide cataclysms when you scan some planets. Right. My point is that without changing the lore, increasing the Citadel forces' strength relative to the Reapers will make the Reaper assault go faster, not slower, assuming rational Reaper behavior. If the Reapers aren't completely and justifiably confident in their ability to hover over Earth and Palaven for ten years, they can bomb them flat in ten hours and move on. The only way to slow the Reapers down is to be weak enough for them to not really be concerned with how fast they defeat you, and treat the operation as a harvest rather than as a war. Most of ME3 actually makes sense if the Reaper priority is maximizing harvesting, rather than defeating Citadel forces. (Note that the Crucible is the only thing which makes the Reapers alter their strategy, although they experience a couple of tactical reverses.)To the extent that ME3 has a problem with Reaper competence, it's that they take any losses at all. If a battle isn't going to be a curbstomp, they shouldn't fight it. Of course, they are allowed to have bad intel from time to time. As for how to change the lore, there's not much that can be done to make planets defensible if a fleet gets anywhere near them, Something could be done to make trans-relay assaults dangerous for the attacker. As it stands now, drift helps an attacker by making it harder for a defensive fleet or a minefield on the far side of the relay to actually have a firing solution on the arriving attacking fleet. Once fleets are in your cluster, intercepting them is conceptually almost impossible since there are no FTL sensors. Maybe give the Reapers drive charge limitations ? They could theoretically be caught at discharge points. -That...makes no sense whatsoever. What would slow down the Reapers is them waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Until they are stronger or their enemy is weaker or distracted. If they're that confident of victory, why go for the ambush at all? "If the battle isn't going to be a curbstomp, they shouldn't fight it" Thank you for making my point. AMBUSH! Too bad Reapers don't seem to have a problem with discharge buildup...
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Post by themikefest on Apr 20, 2019 23:01:18 GMT
What would slow down the Reapers Just do what the defenses on Illium did Reaper forces met a surprising amount of resistance at Illium. Its leaders were paranoid about keeping their fortunes, and were influential in both Terminus and Citadel space. They acquired a large defense fleet and a high number of fission weapons, and in the brief space battle, used them on the Reaper fleet's troop transports rather than their near-impervious capital ships. As a result, the inevitable ground invasion has been slowed to a crawl as the Reapers manufacture more troops. masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Illium
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 20, 2019 23:05:37 GMT
You're missing it. The problem isn't getting the Reapers to be weak enough to have to ambush planets rather than engage in a straight-up fight. The problem is that if you do make the Reapers that weak, they can't be stopped from ambushing planets. The physics of the MEU mean that there is no defense. Picture an ME3 with no ground fighting. ( the Ilium plan above only works if the Reapers want to bother with a ground fight, which doesn't happen unless they have space superiority.)
As for "waiting for the perfect moment to strike," if it hasn't come at the beginning of ME3, it likely never will. The optimal time to invade has already passed; it was centuries ago.(Unless we want to posit that journeying from dark space drained the Reapers somehow, in which case, yes, they would wait it out. But that just means that ME3 starts later.)
Note that the decapitation strike still works even if the Reapers can win without it. Blowing up planets means that the Reaper score in the current round will be lousy. It's like Civ IV -- you don't raze cities unless you know you can't hold them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 23:10:15 GMT
The inconsistency is still there since Nihilus is a Turian and he's the one who first says that "It's rare to find individuals with the skills we seek" Garrus mentions that he was one of 1,000 "turian recruits" who were being considered as spectre candidates. ME1 also states that overall spectre numbers in the entire galaxy of all species are "less than 100" so the kind of one on one review that Shepard got of 1,000 turian candidates (as well as an unknown number of Asari and Salarian candidates) is simply not possible... considering that those less than 100 spectres also have other assignments... that is, they don't just review spectre candidates. Well, technically, not all of those candidates have to make it to the "one on one" interview with the spectre. Maybe the Turians have their own procedure that weeds out the others and leaves it down to a single candidate. It's just that humanity only had 1 candidate, so no need to weed out the others. Or maybe, as the dialogue in the beginning seems to imply, or points out, the final human candidate was Shepard. Then the Turian program becomes a spectre training program that ultimately leads to a number of the recruits "ringing out." It still defies the notion that "spectres are born and not trained." For the humans. their program in the N7 one, but it isn't specifically a spectre one. Garrus clearly implies that it is a program for ultimately becoming a spectre, since his dad essentially insisted he quit the program because his dad was against him being a spectre. Had the Turian program been just a training program for an elite military unit, Garrus could have stayed in the program and simply declined becoming a spectre if he was the lucky one in a thousand you suggest. The lore is inconsistent even in ME1.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 20, 2019 23:15:03 GMT
Well, technically, not all of those candidates have to make it to the "one on one" interview with the spectre. Maybe the Turians have their own procedure that weeds out the others and leaves it down to a single candidate. It's just that humanity only had 1 candidate, so no need to weed out the others. Or maybe, as the dialogue in the beginning seems to imply, or points out, the final human candidate was Shepard. Then the Turian program becomes a spectre training program that ultimately leads to a number of the recruits "ringing out." It still defies the notion that "spectres are born and not trained." For the humans. their program in the N7 one, but it isn't specifically a spectre one. Garrus clearly implies that it is a program for ultimately becoming a spectre, since his dad essentially insisted he quit the program because his dad was against him being a spectre. Had the Turian program been just a training program for an elite military unit, Garrus could have stayed in the program and simply declined becoming a spectre if he was the lucky one in a thousand you suggest. The lore is inconsistent even in ME1. Probably because those parts were written by different people. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often with Bio games given the way they break stuff up.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 20, 2019 23:58:31 GMT
spectres are born and not trained Oh no, that is absolutely right. Candidates are sorted out, not through training, but a series of tests. A spectre candidate will either pass or, more likely, die. There might be more to what Garrus is letting on about spectres and "red tape" if I recall his dialogue correctly. I don't think he is 100% honest with us and we never bothered to pick up on that questioning. And by "we" I mean Bioware.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 21, 2019 0:18:27 GMT
You're missing it. The problem isn't getting the Reapers to be weak enough to have to ambush planets rather than engage in a straight-up fight. The problem is that if you do make the Reapers that weak, they can't be stopped from ambushing planets. The physics of the MEU mean that there is no defense. Picture an ME3 with no ground fighting. ( the Ilium plan above only works if the Reapers want to bother with a ground fight, which doesn't happen unless they have space superiority.) As for "waiting for the perfect moment to strike," if it hasn't come at the beginning of ME3, it likely never will. The optimal time to invade has already passed; it was centuries ago.(Unless we want to posit that journeying from dark space drained the Reapers somehow, in which case, yes, they would wait it out. But that just means that ME3 starts later.) Note that the decapitation strike still works even if the Reapers can win without it. Blowing up planets means that the Reaper score in the current round will be lousy. It's like Civ IV -- you don't raze cities unless you know you can't hold them. So that's the goal of the game: Make sure the opportunity never comes. If vanguards are this tough to handle, make sure we never have to face the main body. Heck that even plays into the whole space-Cthulhu thing where you d NOT want the Great Old Ones to come stomping around. You seal the gates and pray they NEVER wake up again.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 21, 2019 1:33:57 GMT
OK. If we decide to just not do the war then a lot of these issues go away.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 21, 2019 2:19:12 GMT
If you want to keep the Reapers fighting as ambush predators, we'd need to change space combat lore and Reaper capabilities a bit. The way ME1 established things, planets are simply not defensible. Anyone with a bunch of dreadnoughts who wants to can blow up a biosphere. (The trans-relay assault Codex entry is a great example of what not to do.) If the Reapers couldn't beat the Citadel fleets in a stand-up fight, they wouldn't have to get into one. Just give every planet the Bekenstein treatment until the galactic economy collapses. Well, Vigil kinda confirms that: "Some worlds were utterly destroyed." Plus evidence of old civilizations that were wiped out in worldwide cataclysms when you scan some planets. Part of me hoped some of those worldwide cataclysms were just other warring civilizations. The Krogan kinda tried this with their asteroid attacks against the Turians.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 21, 2019 2:54:16 GMT
OK. If we decide to just not do the war then a lot of these issues go away. Trying to fight a war against Cthulhu with a shotgun and biotics was never a viable solution.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 12:08:40 GMT
OK. If we decide to just not do the war then a lot of these issues go away. Trying to fight a war against Cthulhu with a shotgun and biotics was never a viable solution. From the Reaper POV, it was never necessary. With their ability to indoctrinate by just broadcasting sound,, they should have been able to just convince everyone to be harvested. It should have been a bloodless endeavor.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 21, 2019 17:47:52 GMT
Trying to fight a war against Cthulhu with a shotgun and biotics was never a viable solution. From the Reaper POV, it was never necessary. With their ability to indoctrinate by just broadcasting sound,, they should have been able to just convince everyone to be harvested. It should have been a bloodless endeavor. In theory, yes, but Reapers follow the guidelines of "all" synthetics: they betray their masters and war on organics. Hence, they want to attack and kill organics. It's in their nature, or so the Catalyst would have us believe.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 21, 2019 18:36:32 GMT
-Without Shepard doing something appropriately heroic? No. But then this is (supposedly) an RPG, not a RTS We are not the Terrans, they are not the zerg. The goal here is to create a situation where the galaxy could plausibly hold out long enough for Our Hero to triumph. Not simply have the Reaper invasion act all incompetent because the plot demands they slow down. Shepard has nothing to do with the reapers numbers. I agree the reapers were made incompetent, but I would add the galaxy, especially the Alliance were incompetent as well. Don't know anything about the terrans and zerg that you mention. It's a reference to starcraft. It is an old RTS game that was AWESOME. The terrans were humans and the zerg were...I am not sure what to call them except aliens.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:19:09 GMT
From the Reaper POV, it was never necessary. With their ability to indoctrinate by just broadcasting sound,, they should have been able to just convince everyone to be harvested. It should have been a bloodless endeavor. In theory, yes, but Reapers follow the guidelines of "all" synthetics: they betray their masters and war on organics. Hence, they want to attack and kill organics. It's in their nature, or so the Catalyst would have us believe. Still, just "attacking" them with indoctrinating sounds would be far more effective for them and far less risky. As "logic" driven entities (being AI), attacking with a military force and armed fleet makes no sense at all.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 21, 2019 22:48:31 GMT
In theory, yes, but Reapers follow the guidelines of "all" synthetics: they betray their masters and war on organics. Hence, they want to attack and kill organics. It's in their nature, or so the Catalyst would have us believe. Still, just "attacking" them with indoctrinating sounds would be far more effective for them and far less risky. As "logic" driven entities (being AI), attacking with a military force and armed fleet makes no sense at all. Well to be fair from what I saw they have to be relatively close to have the indoctrination start. When soverign attacked eden prime the locals said something along the lines of "the ship was emmiting a horrible sound that made our heads hurt" again that was the gist of it not what they said word for word. Now we see the soldiers still fighting when we see the transmission from eden prime at the beggining of ME1. So while the signal effects people a little it doesn't turn them into reaper slaves. So I suppose if the reapers just landed and sat there they could do it but they would get hit constantly and while they are strong they couldn't take days of being shelled from the people they are trying to indoctrinating and would get destroyed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 22:57:10 GMT
Still, just "attacking" them with indoctrinating sounds would be far more effective for them and far less risky. As "logic" driven entities (being AI), attacking with a military force and armed fleet makes no sense at all. Well to be fair from what I saw they have to be relatively close to have the indoctrination start. When soverign attacked eden prime the locals said something along the lines of "the ship was emmiting a horrible sound that made our heads hurt" again that was the gist of it not what they said word for word. Now we see the soldiers still fighting when we see the transmission from eden prime at the beggining of ME1. So while the signal effects people a little it doesn't turn them into reaper slaves. So I suppose if the reapers just landed and sat there they could do it but they would get hit constantly and while they are strong they couldn't take days of being shelled from the people they are trying to indoctrinating and would get destroyed. The thing is Sovereign was on his own... one ship emitting the signal and there was a reason to land on the planet... to grab the beacon. However, once in the galaxy, the Reaper force would not have to land on the planets...just stay out in orbit and bombard them with a collective (and thus very strong) indoctrination signal. It would take a little time for the population to become "mush" but time is on the side the Reapers then. Also, being AI, I never understood why they couldn't just disable all the Council ships and comms with EMPs. Certainly, it would have been more worth their while to develop an EMP weapon and shield themselves from it's effects than resort to landing on planets and using a laser cannon. Couldn't they have also transmitted a virus into all the tech weaponry the Council force had and therefore disabled it and prevented it from being used against them?
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 21, 2019 23:12:44 GMT
Well to be fair from what I saw they have to be relatively close to have the indoctrination start. When soverign attacked eden prime the locals said something along the lines of "the ship was emmiting a horrible sound that made our heads hurt" again that was the gist of it not what they said word for word. Now we see the soldiers still fighting when we see the transmission from eden prime at the beggining of ME1. So while the signal effects people a little it doesn't turn them into reaper slaves. So I suppose if the reapers just landed and sat there they could do it but they would get hit constantly and while they are strong they couldn't take days of being shelled from the people they are trying to indoctrinating and would get destroyed. The thing is Sovereign was on his own... one ship emitting the signal and there was a reason to land on the planet... to grab the beacon. However, once in the galaxy, the Reaper force would not have to land on the planets...just stay out in orbit and bombard them with a collective (and thus very strong) indoctrination signal. It would take a little time for the population to become "mush" but time is on the side the Reapers then. Also, being AI, I never understood why they couldn't just disable all the Council ships and comms with EMPs. Certainly, it would have been more worth their while to develop an EMP weapon and shield themselves from it's effects than resort to landing on planets and using a laser cannon. Couldn't they have also transmitted a virus into all the tech weaponry the Council force had and therefore disabled it and prevented it from being used against them? Wouldn't the EMP hit them too?
Also we don't know how far the reaper signal can go. It may be a hundred yards or it may be a hundred miles.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2019 0:51:57 GMT
In theory, yes, but Reapers follow the guidelines of "all" synthetics: they betray their masters and war on organics. Hence, they want to attack and kill organics. It's in their nature, or so the Catalyst would have us believe. Still, just "attacking" them with indoctrinating sounds would be far more effective for them and far less risky. As "logic" driven entities (being AI), attacking with a military force and armed fleet makes no sense at all. I was suggesting that just killing them wasn't enough. It's the fighting and torture that makes it all worthwhile.
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