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Post by algaeabomination on Jun 12, 2017 11:34:40 GMT
It's not so much that it's a tragic decision, it's pitting two of the very few LGBT characters against each other, all in the name of angst (and Bury Your Gays is a trope I'm really tired of seeing, and one that BW likes to indulge in way to much. Personally, I think it's more comparable to Demands of the Qun. But then I don't really care about Alistair ) You thought about Anders and Fenris, you don't? I see that more forced Mage–Templar conflict between them, and yes, they both are tortured in their past. But I agree, would be nice a gay/bi character without angst, promiscuity or daddy issues... (Even Leandra, who accept's his daughter/son's choice, spoke about an arranged marriage...) (By the way LGBT: much more annoy me, that Anders doesn't talk about his relationship to fem!Hawke, seems, if anyone plays just as a female, will never realize, that Anders is bisexual...) I haven't Warden Alistair, but I like him (ofc, I like Hawke more), I have ser Mustache and Loghain for sacrifice... (sorry, Stroud!) I'm not sure why you mention Anders? The player is never forced into a life or death choice between them (they're in opposition to each other, but that's not what I'm talking about). The choice in Demands of the Qun hinges on choosing whether or not to kill a group which has the franchise's only trans man, and can lead directly to the death of the one of the few bi men and the only way to avoid it is to not recruit Iron Bull at all. Pitting Dorian against Fenris and forcing the player to pick which one dies is a shitty position to put LGBT players in I don't want them to do it any of their LGBT characters, because I'm tired of seeing them on the chopping block. Fenris is similar - being attracted to men only comes up in the romance with male Hawke, and while I can appreciate that it does make it clear he is actually attracted to men, it shouldn't have been something so easily avoided (that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). The bi characters in DA have a tendency to appear promiscuous or their bisexuality is practically invisible, and that's not great either. Some balance would be nice! LOL @ Ser Moustache. I'd almost forgotten about him until he showed up in DAI.
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Post by phoray on Jun 12, 2017 12:07:42 GMT
Fenris is similar - being attracted to men only comes up in the romance with male Hawke, and while I can appreciate that it does make it clear he is actually attracted to men, it shouldn't have been something so easily avoided (that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). The bi characters in DA have a tendency to appear promiscuous or their bisexuality is practically invisible, and that's not great either. Some balance would be nice! Wait, what? I have played 3 Hawkes, but one of them was a man who romanced Fenris to the end. I don't remember him outright saying he was 100% for men in that PT.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 12, 2017 14:45:23 GMT
You thought about Anders and Fenris, you don't? I see that more forced Mage–Templar conflict between them, and yes, they both are tortured in their past. But I agree, would be nice a gay/bi character without angst, promiscuity or daddy issues... (Even Leandra, who accept's his daughter/son's choice, spoke about an arranged marriage...) (By the way LGBT: much more annoy me, that Anders doesn't talk about his relationship to fem!Hawke, seems, if anyone plays just as a female, will never realize, that Anders is bisexual...) I haven't Warden Alistair, but I like him (ofc, I like Hawke more), I have ser Mustache and Loghain for sacrifice... (sorry, Stroud!) I'm not sure why you mention Anders? The player is never forced into a life or death choice between them (they're in opposition to each other, but that's not what I'm talking about). The choice in Demands of the Qun hinges on choosing whether or not to kill a group which has the franchise's only trans man, and can lead directly to the death of the one of the few bi men and the only way to avoid it is to not recruit Iron Bull at all. Pitting Dorian against Fenris and forcing the player to pick which one dies is a shitty position to put LGBT players in I don't want them to do it any of their LGBT characters, because I'm tired of seeing them on the chopping block. Fenris is similar - being attracted to men only comes up in the romance with male Hawke, and while I can appreciate that it does make it clear he is actually attracted to men, it shouldn't have been something so easily avoided (that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). The bi characters in DA have a tendency to appear promiscuous or their bisexuality is practically invisible, and that's not great either. Some balance would be nice! LOL @ Ser Moustache. I'd almost forgotten about him until he showed up in DAI. Sorry, misunderstod. I thought, you speak about DA2 mostly, and I never thought, that the sacrificing the Chargers is an insult to LGBT. (I never sacrificed them, because of I like Bull as Tal Vashoth better, and seems, he insist to his men.) This is why I thought you mentioned Anders and Fenris' contrary, and we can kill both of them. While I would like positive examples of LGBT people, and happy ends, marriage with gay/bi LIs, I don't want, that LGBT people would be untouchable, unkillable. I heard, that Solas finally didn't being bi, because, they didn't want an LGBT antagonist. (Perhaps, this is not valid information, I'm not sure about.) I just would like, that LGBT characters would treat as everyone else.
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Post by algaeabomination on Jun 12, 2017 22:53:53 GMT
I'm not sure why you mention Anders? The player is never forced into a life or death choice between them (they're in opposition to each other, but that's not what I'm talking about). The choice in Demands of the Qun hinges on choosing whether or not to kill a group which has the franchise's only trans man, and can lead directly to the death of the one of the few bi men and the only way to avoid it is to not recruit Iron Bull at all. Pitting Dorian against Fenris and forcing the player to pick which one dies is a shitty position to put LGBT players in I don't want them to do it any of their LGBT characters, because I'm tired of seeing them on the chopping block. Fenris is similar - being attracted to men only comes up in the romance with male Hawke, and while I can appreciate that it does make it clear he is actually attracted to men, it shouldn't have been something so easily avoided (that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). The bi characters in DA have a tendency to appear promiscuous or their bisexuality is practically invisible, and that's not great either. Some balance would be nice! LOL @ Ser Moustache. I'd almost forgotten about him until he showed up in DAI. Sorry, misunderstod. I thought, you speak about DA2 mostly, and I never thought, that the sacrificing the Chargers is an insult to LGBT. (I never sacrificed them, because of I like Bull as Tal Vashoth better, and seems, he insist to his men.) This is why I thought you mentioned Anders and Fenris' contrary, and we can kill both of them. While I would like positive examples of LGBT people, and happy ends, marriage with gay/bi LIs, but I don't want, that LGBT people would be untouchable, unkillable. I heard, that Solas finally didn't being bi, because, they didn't want an LGBT antagonist. (Perhaps, this is not valid information, I'm not sure about.) I just would like, that LGBT characters would treat as everyone else. Ahh ... I get you (and I rambled a bit so it wasn't very clear). Yeah, that's a valid point too. What I don't like about Dorian vs. Fenris specifically is that it'd force the player to choose between two LGBT characters - there's no way to save them both. Like I said, it's just a trope I'm really tired of seeing. If there were more LGBT characters in media, and a variety in stories and outcomes, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Yeah, Weekes has said they choose not to make him bi because of the depraved bi trope. Apparently, they got a lot of shit over doing it with Anders. I've got mixed feelings about it - he's clearly an important character, yet his is most restricted romance (race locking, I can understand, given what he says about everyone else) and there's lore revealed that you only get in the romance. Anyone not interested in playing an m/f romance is shit out of luck. Having the two non-demon-y or corrupted antagonists being bi men isn't a particularly great thing, especially when the writing for the bi characters already gets stereotypical. Still, it could have been balanced out by giving other bi characters a similar kind of significant, plot related content. Josephine is a great character (and the closest to the Knight in shining armour kind of romance) but there's a huge amount of difference in how much content she got. And ignoring personal opinions, bi Cullen would have helped as well.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 0:26:00 GMT
Sorry, misunderstod. I thought, you speak about DA2 mostly, and I never thought, that the sacrificing the Chargers is an insult to LGBT. (I never sacrificed them, because of I like Bull as Tal Vashoth better, and seems, he insist to his men.) This is why I thought you mentioned Anders and Fenris' contrary, and we can kill both of them. While I would like positive examples of LGBT people, and happy ends, marriage with gay/bi LIs, I don't want, that LGBT people would be untouchable, unkillable. I heard, that Solas finally didn't being bi, because, they didn't want an LGBT antagonist. (Perhaps, this is not valid information, I'm not sure about.) I just would like, that LGBT characters would treat as everyone else. Ahh ... I get you (and I rambled a bit so it wasn't very clear). Yeah, that's a valid point too. What I don't like about Dorian vs. Fenris specifically is that it'd force the player to choose between two LGBT characters - there's no way to save them both. Like I said, it's just a trope I'm really tired of seeing. If there were more LGBT characters in media, and a variety in stories and outcomes, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Yeah, Weekes has said they choose not to make him bi because of the depraved bi trope. Apparently, they got a lot of shit over doing it with Anders. I've got mixed feelings about it - he's clearly an important character, yet his is most restricted romance (race locking, I can understand, given what he says about everyone else) and there's lore revealed that you only get in the romance. Anyone not interested in playing an m/f romance is shit out of luck. Having the two non-demon-y or corrupted antagonists being bi men isn't a particularly great thing, especially when the writing for the bi characters already gets stereotypical. Still, it could have been balanced out by giving other bi characters a similar kind of significant, plot related content. Josephine is a great character (and the closest to the Knight in shining armour kind of romance) but there's a huge amount of difference in how much content she got. And ignoring personal opinions, bi Cullen would have helped as well. Of course, I also don't want this decision. But I don't think that Fenris and Dorian would kill each other. I even don't think, that Fenris would want to go back to Tevinter, but this is not excluded. And why would we force to choose between them? Anyway, I just want Bioware leave My Hawke(s) and their love live in peace. Just forget them, Bioware! Anders and Fenris the best romances in the whole series, I don't believe that Solas romance would be better, but very story-wise, and perhaps continued somehow. Many people like it. We have only one plot related LI: Anders (he was great, even if I think, Jennifer Helper didn't like his character, she did good work: Anders/Justice can be interpreted in many ways as well). But in DA4, I think Dorian will be an important person (at least I hope), I'm curious, he will continue the romance with Inquisitor or not. Although I admit, Dorian's far, not my favorite LI, not that bad, but not my style, his witty-fashionable flamboyant behavior too stereotypical for my taste. This is why would important to me a Cullen/Alistair/Cassandra/Aveline type bi/gay LI. Such a LI would break the stereotypes: a gay KNIGHT would important (even if his/her shiny armour a bit bloody, as Cullen's for example). And the happy end/marriage. Anders moves in Hawke's mansion, and they live together. Anders and Fenris have a happy end, they will live happily together with their Hawke, until they die. And their knight is Hawke.DA2 gay love stories are great. DAI: Dorian and Inquisitor's love story, if continuing, have a chance for a happy end, but in DAI was a disappointment with this mobile crystal. Iron Bull stay with Inquisitor, but seems they spend a lot of time separately. And Sera married with Inquisitor, and I don't know Josie romance's end. Not that bad, but I want an m/m marriage. (This would important to me. There is no gay marriage in my country.)
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 1:07:57 GMT
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Post by cmoe on Jun 13, 2017 2:28:00 GMT
(that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). Just curious and new to the thread so sorry if this was covered, but what question does F!Hawke get that M!Hawke didn't?
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Post by algaeabomination on Jun 13, 2017 4:51:15 GMT
(that aside, the question about pain that fem!Hawke gets is way more interesting from a character/story perspective). Just curious and new to the thread so sorry if this was covered, but what question does F!Hawke get that M!Hawke didn't? In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) This is why would important to me a Cullen/Alistair/Cassandra/Aveline type bi/gay LI. Such a LI would break the stereotypes: a gay KNIGHT would important ... And Sera married with Inquisitor, and I don't know Josie romance's end. Not that bad, but I want an m/m marriage. (This would important to me. There is no gay marriage in my country.) I don't think it'd be in character for them, either. But I don't trust Weekes to pick in character writing over angst. He's mentioned before that he loves that kind of decision, and his characterisation in Here Lies the Abyss was pretty crap. Yeah, that's exactly it. Josephine got almost no romance specific content in Trespasser, and you can't even bring the topic of marriage up. Sera/Inquisitor is the only example of same gender marriage we see, and making one of their traditionally straight KISA types gay/bi as well would have been something really positive (and a m/m wedding would have been amazing). And butch women get absolutely next to nothing when it comes to positive representation, too.
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Post by cmoe on Jun 13, 2017 5:21:18 GMT
In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) I can see what you mean, it does seem more story relevant with his markings. I knew about the Anders dialogue varying slightly from male to female Hawke but not Fenris. Also, I feel like anytime I see a character from a previous game show up, it is usually to cause me heartache or breaks up my previously happy couple. But who knows, I already think it was so out of character for Fenris to not be by Hawke's side in DAI.
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Post by algaeabomination on Jun 13, 2017 5:23:52 GMT
So is this what Fenris smells like??
Dorian: Are you aware you smell different?
Inquisitor: I do?
Dorian: No one's mentioned it? Lyrium has a particular smell. Like the air after a lightning strike. It's incredibly attractive. Good job on that.
(this was posted in the Dorian thread, but I though I'd avoid derailing it to talk about Fenris lol)
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 9:35:58 GMT
Just curious and new to the thread so sorry if this was covered, but what question does F!Hawke get that M!Hawke didn't? In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) This is why would important to me a Cullen/Alistair/Cassandra/Aveline type bi/gay LI. Such a LI would break the stereotypes: a gay KNIGHT would important ... And Sera married with Inquisitor, and I don't know Josie romance's end. Not that bad, but I want an m/m marriage. (This would important to me. There is no gay marriage in my country.) I don't think it'd be in character for them, either. But I don't trust Weekes to pick in character writing over angst. He's mentioned before that he loves that kind of decision, and his characterisation in Here Lies the Abyss was pretty crap. Yeah, that's exactly it. Josephine got almost no romance specific content in Trespasser, and you can't even bring the topic of marriage up. Sera/Inquisitor is the only example of same gender marriage we see, and making one of their traditionally straight KISA types gay/bi as well would have been something really positive (and a m/m wedding would have been amazing). And butch women get absolutely next to nothing when it comes to positive representation, too. That answer! I didn't know, laugh or cry, when I saw first. He didn't realize over 3 years, that whom he loves, is a man? I thought, that was clear... (I always pick red answer here...)
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 9:40:21 GMT
So is this what Fenris smells like?? Dorian: Are you aware you smell different? Inquisitor: I do? Dorian: No one's mentioned it? Lyrium has a particular smell. Like the air after a lightning strike. It's incredibly attractive. Good job on that. (this was posted in the Dorian thread, but I though I'd avoid derailing it to talk about Fenris lol) Haha, yes, I saw this conversation before. I'm sure then, that Fenris' odor is very attractive...
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 9:58:03 GMT
In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) I can see what you mean, it does seem more story relevant with his markings. I knew about the Anders dialogue varying slightly from male to female Hawke but not Fenris. Also, I feel like anytime I see a character from a previous game show up, it is usually to cause me heartache or breaks up my previously happy couple. But who knows , I already think it was so out of character for Fenris to not be by Hawke's side in DAI.Yes, this is weird, that Hawke just left him, but this is a simple technical question: probably so much work would be modeling +4 characters (or 3, because perhaps Anders woulds't really welcome in the Inquisition, but could be funny with Vivienne), and giving them different dialogues, behavior*... If they would create only Fenris, that would have caused some indignation. But was disappointing, that Hawke said only one short sentence about that. ________________ *But of course, would be nice, instead of the empty places and time robber trash-quests... but to escort important goats; to pick weeds and pebbles > showing Hawke with his/her LI. Thank you, Bioware, you probably only saved me from a disappointment.
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 13, 2017 11:55:22 GMT
In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) Yeah... They really picked strange things to differ femHawke and mHawke romances
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 12:09:04 GMT
In the post sex talk in A Bitter Pill, fem!Hawke's diplomatic option is 'Your markings... they hurt, don't they?'. The same response for m!Hawke is 'Was it too strange to be with another man?'. The romances are pretty similar otherwise. The sarcastic option in the above conversation is a bit different, and fem!Hawke gets an additional bit of dialogue in one of their Act 1 (I think) conversations. Which is one of the reason I was frustrated by the difference (also ... surely it would have come up earlier lol) Yeah... They really picked strange things to differ femHawke and mHawke romances I suppose because women are more kind and emotional, men are... hmmm...
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2017 13:29:12 GMT
I can't find a video showing male Hawke asking Fenris "was it strange to be with another man?" Keep finding the stupid sarcastic answer, "A lot to take in, I know."
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 13, 2017 13:32:04 GMT
I can't find a video showing male Hawke asking Fenris "was it strange to be with another man?" Keep finding the stupid sarcastic answer, "A lot to take in, I know." 19:17
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2017 13:33:49 GMT
I can't find a video showing male Hawke asking Fenris "was it strange to be with another man?" Keep finding the stupid sarcastic answer, "A lot to take in, I know." 19:17Oh. Oh. He doesn't even really reply to that. It almost implies he hasn't been with men before though.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 13:35:12 GMT
I can't find a video showing male Hawke asking Fenris "was it strange to be with another man?" Keep finding the stupid sarcastic answer, "A lot to take in, I know." Because this is a VERY stupid answer, I think, many people rather avoid it. (I usually go with the red one.)
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2017 13:39:20 GMT
I can't find a video showing male Hawke asking Fenris "was it strange to be with another man?" Keep finding the stupid sarcastic answer, "A lot to take in, I know." Because this is a VERY stupid answer, I think, many people rather avoid it. (I usually go with the red one.) I/my Hawkes have only slept with Fenris twice. So, I asked the Question Option "You remembered things?", which I think moves the conversation along, annoyingly, my first time and I was a woman. The second time, I was playing Evil MAle Hawke and told him I was fine with it being a one night stand. Next MAle Hawke to sleep with him with also tell him he was okay with it being a one night stand, because he's for Isabella and he's just like that. I can't imagine yelling at Fenris for saying he has to go. He's being very vulnerable at that moment.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 14:11:06 GMT
Because this is a VERY stupid answer, I think, many people rather avoid it. (I usually go with the red one.) I/my Hawkes have only slept with Fenris twice. So, I asked the Question Option "You remembered things?", which I think moves the conversation along, annoyingly, my first time and I was a woman. The second time, I was playing Evil MAle Hawke and told him I was fine with it being a one night stand. Next MAle Hawke to sleep with him with also tell him he was okay with it being a one night stand, because he's for Isabella and he's just like that. I can't imagine yelling at Fenris for saying he has to go. He's being very vulnerable at that moment. The red one isn't yell. it's rather disappointed.
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2017 14:23:00 GMT
I/my Hawkes have only slept with Fenris twice. So, I asked the Question Option "You remembered things?", which I think moves the conversation along, annoyingly, my first time and I was a woman. The second time, I was playing Evil MAle Hawke and told him I was fine with it being a one night stand. Next MAle Hawke to sleep with him with also tell him he was okay with it being a one night stand, because he's for Isabella and he's just like that. I can't imagine yelling at Fenris for saying he has to go. He's being very vulnerable at that moment. The red one isn't yell. it's rather disappointed. Oh, I thought you meant the line, "You're the one who came to me in the first place!"
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Post by Catilina on Jun 13, 2017 14:43:35 GMT
The red one isn't yell. it's rather disappointed. Oh, I thought you meant the line, "You're the one who came to me in the first place!" I don't remember this sentence. I spoke about the bed scene, when Fenris tell that this was a mistake.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2017 15:04:31 GMT
Oh, I thought you meant the line, "You're the one who came to me in the first place!" I don't remember this sentence. I spoke about the bed scene, when Fenris tell that this was a mistake. This reply was what I called "Yelling."
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 13, 2017 19:27:03 GMT
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