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Post by colfoley on Aug 18, 2019 1:39:30 GMT
I have trouble with this too. Why hello, kind but naïve NPC #2, you’re very obviously doomed, so chop chop. It seems selfish, but the only stakes that tend to affect me in hometown chapters are stakes involving the PC. Because unlike every other person, the PC has a chance of surviving them. The point of fear is to try to change a situation... if I already know it’s going to go bad, there’s no tension. Yes, exactly, after literal decades of every game in the world using this exact setup, it simply no longer has the power it once did. "Haha! We killed your parents/wife/friends! I bet you're SUPER pissed and really motivated to play the whole game to get vengeance!" If anything, crap like that is liable to make me give up on a game even earlier. Can't speak for anyone else but it usually is a fairly effective formula on me. I was going to go into this on one of your last posts but its effective here...I don't care about anything else when I play a game or watch a movie. Sure I can compare one to the other but all that matters is how a fictional work executes their given formulas, not how Lord of the Rings or Batman executed their formula decades ago. Hell it is why we keep on seeing Batman's Origin Story for every new iteration of the character because it is important to ground the character and get to know them in their new context. Same goes for video games. IF we get an 'Origin Story' where a good chunk of the player's family is massacred in the beginning its not going to matter that happened to the Couslands, all that will matter is it will happen in DA 4. Besides these Origin/ Introductory Stories are alot more important then just introducing the world, they help establish character and help you get used to YOUR character before things go to hell. Now I'm not advocating that DA 4 give us anything as in depth as Origins, after all almost any way to start a story is valid. Just anything to give us a little time in the character's shoes is often helpful for an RPG, before action. Like the introductory sequences in Andromeda and Mass Effect 1.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 18, 2019 3:06:58 GMT
Yes, exactly, after literal decades of every game in the world using this exact setup, it simply no longer has the power it once did. "Haha! We killed your parents/wife/friends! I bet you're SUPER pissed and really motivated to play the whole game to get vengeance!" If anything, crap like that is liable to make me give up on a game even earlier. Can't speak for anyone else but it usually is a fairly effective formula on me. I was going to go into this on one of your last posts but its effective here...I don't care about anything else when I play a game or watch a movie. Sure I can compare one to the other but all that matters is how a fictional work executes their given formulas, not how Lord of the Rings or Batman executed their formula decades ago. Hell it is why we keep on seeing Batman's Origin Story for every new iteration of the character because it is important to ground the character and get to know them in their new context. Same goes for video games. IF we get an 'Origin Story' where a good chunk of the player's family is massacred in the beginning its not going to matter that happened to the Couslands, all that will matter is it will happen in DA 4. Besides these Origin/ Introductory Stories are alot more important then just introducing the world, they help establish character and help you get used to YOUR character before things go to hell. Now I'm not advocating that DA 4 give us anything as in depth as Origins, after all almost any way to start a story is valid. Just anything to give us a little time in the character's shoes is often helpful for an RPG, before action. Like the introductory sequences in Andromeda and Mass Effect 1. Look, there's not much I can say to this, except that I fundamentally disagree about the necessity of such scenes, and that Batman is just about the worst example you could have picked. His character and especially his origins are so widely disseminated throughout pop culture that there isn't a single person alive who is unfamiliar with the concept of Batman. He has ALREADY been iterated and reiterated upon, again and again in comics, tv and film. And many people would say that another origin story film is the LAST thing Batman needs. Consider also, the latest iteration of Spider-Man didn't have an "origin story" film, nor did Black Panther, for that matter. And Wonder Woman was introduced in Batman v Superman and only got an intro movie afterwards. Ditto for Aquaman in Justice League. We figured it out. All that said, I am not inherently opposed to "introductory scenes", but they are almost always boring as shit, and BioWare is a particular offender in this regard. Nor do I feel I need them in order to understand my own character. Whether or not he helped get the cat down from the tree or whatever the fuck has absolutely no bearing on how he'll behave after Nowhereinghamshireton gets nuked into glass. Real people don't respond the same way to all situations. I don't try to fit my characters into DnD's outmoded moral alignment system.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 18, 2019 3:47:27 GMT
Can't speak for anyone else but it usually is a fairly effective formula on me. I was going to go into this on one of your last posts but its effective here...I don't care about anything else when I play a game or watch a movie. Sure I can compare one to the other but all that matters is how a fictional work executes their given formulas, not how Lord of the Rings or Batman executed their formula decades ago. Hell it is why we keep on seeing Batman's Origin Story for every new iteration of the character because it is important to ground the character and get to know them in their new context. Same goes for video games. IF we get an 'Origin Story' where a good chunk of the player's family is massacred in the beginning its not going to matter that happened to the Couslands, all that will matter is it will happen in DA 4. Besides these Origin/ Introductory Stories are alot more important then just introducing the world, they help establish character and help you get used to YOUR character before things go to hell. Now I'm not advocating that DA 4 give us anything as in depth as Origins, after all almost any way to start a story is valid. Just anything to give us a little time in the character's shoes is often helpful for an RPG, before action. Like the introductory sequences in Andromeda and Mass Effect 1. Look, there's not much I can say to this, except that I fundamentally disagree about the necessity of such scenes, and that Batman is just about the worst example you could have picked. His character and especially his origins are so widely disseminated throughout pop culture that there isn't a single person alive who is unfamiliar with the concept of Batman. He has ALREADY been iterated and reiterated upon, again and again in comics, tv and film. And many people would say that another origin story film is the LAST thing Batman needs. Consider also, the latest iteration of Spider-Man didn't have an "origin story" film, nor did Black Panther, for that matter. And Wonder Woman was introduced in Batman v Superman and only got an intro movie afterwards. Ditto for Aquaman in Justice League. We figured it out. All that said, I am not inherently opposed to "introductory scenes", but they are almost always boring as shit, and BioWare is a particular offender in this regard. Nor do I feel I need them in order to understand my own character. Whether or not he helped get the cat down from the tree or whatever the fuck has absolutely no bearing on how he'll behave after Nowhereinghamshireton gets nuked into glass. Real people don't respond the same way to all situations. I don't try to fit my characters into DnD's outmoded moral alignment system. I'm not saying they are necessary...far from it. I'm saying it can be helpful to let you get used to the characters, setting, story, and philosophical themes/ tone. This can be an especially a good idea when it comes to RPGs and their characters since the player has a hand in the character creation process. Though even then its still not neccessary since I still enjoyed the Inquisitor and Inquisition even without one. As far as Batman and Spider Man are concerned I brought them up quite deliberatley. With Bats V Supes the movie felt rushed and nonsensical because we didn't get time to get to know that version of Batman. We didn't know how he would act, what his modus operandi were, why he could've been mad at Super Man...there was no build up...no expansion on the plot...just here is a bunch of random characters who do a bunch of random things. It could've really benefited from an 'Origin Movie' for Batman and maybe even for Wonder Woman. B v S introduced us to: Wonder Woman, Batman, Lex Luthor, the concept of the Jutice League and the other recruits (perhaps a good thing since it was pretty much the only world building the DCEU has attempted to do) and Doomsday. That is a lot to introduce in one movie and it really suffered for it. Similar to how Homecoming is by far my least favorite of the MCU movies...because I just don't care about Spider Man. I don't really care for his schtick and the movie didn't even attempt to get me to care for it either. It was all like 'here's spider man'.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 26, 2019 16:45:31 GMT
I prefer an introductory session. I like to have some idea of who my character is and where they come from before the plot starts thickening - even being able to wander around the Conclave and talk to random (and doomed) people, my fellow Valo-Kas mercs or members of the Trevelyan family, etc. I feel like it would've given things more weight instead of having all the victims be nameless, faceless nobodies except for Justinia (who is head of an organization and belief system you might not have any connection to).
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Aug 26, 2019 17:28:54 GMT
Depends. If they bring back the Inquisitor, than I don't see a need for an in depth introductory part of the game. If it's going to be a new protagonist, then I would love to see something like Origins.
But at the same time Origins worked because you started is different areas, and then came back to those areas later in the games as part of the story. You got to finally kill Arl Howe, who I was literally looking to give him his comeuppance the entire game. You got to go back to the alienage and see familiar faces and defend it, etc. It would like to see something like that again if a new protagonist.
But either way it has to be something better than DA2, when you were just thrown in, told some people were your family and then one dies literally five minutes into the game, and you had barely even spoken to them. Then you reach Kirkwall and have an immediate time skip. DA:I could have used a little more lead up, but it was better than DA2.
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Post by Venepirata on Aug 26, 2019 19:22:07 GMT
I like having a “before the beginning” feeling with games, books, movies or wuddever, so playing a pre set origin or “normal life setting” or so on would be muchly so appreciated by me, not that being plunged straight into the action is a bad thing, but even so haha... the more I can experience any and all of the story and backstory the betetetetter
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 26, 2019 22:20:51 GMT
I loved the DAO character origin stories, I have a fondness for starting off like that, but not having one wouldn't be a negative for me. This would be a good poll question btw.
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Post by Felya87 on Aug 27, 2019 11:55:00 GMT
I definitely prefer the slow start. I like how in Origins I have the time build up my character before the actual adventure start: is s/he a funny person, or a terrible one? How s/he interact with her/his family/companions/fellow elves-dwarf-qunari-mages etc.? And how will they change after the fact that will get s/he out of her elements? I think the "trow in action" thing is quite frankly both overused and not used well.
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 27, 2019 13:06:09 GMT
I'd like for it to be a slow(er) start. However, it does not need to be as extensive as in DAO with different race/class origins. I wouldn't mind if they stuck to one "tutorial" beginning with minor differences/options depending on class/race. Something that introduces your character and maybe a cohort or two you can meet again later in the game.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 28, 2019 15:33:16 GMT
Well, no proper RPG game starts without having you fight giant rats.
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 28, 2019 19:12:25 GMT
Anything but Dragon age Inquisitions: You have a background via War Table crap will be fine by me. I liked DAO and being able to get a 'feel' for who my character is/would end up being. BUT, I also liked Hawkes start to his game, but ONLY because he had his family with him. So maybe a mix of DAO and DA2, and ZERO DAI.
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 28, 2019 19:13:21 GMT
Well, no proper RPG game starts without having you fight giant rats. Larder rats for everyone!
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 28, 2019 19:48:23 GMT
I think the problem with Origins wasn’t that it had a slow start, it was that it had two slow starts back to back before the game really opened up.
First we had the origin and then everything from Ostagar pretty much through Lothering.
If we can have just one I would prefer it as a chance to get to know who my character is before being thrown into crisis
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Post by colfoley on Aug 28, 2019 19:51:23 GMT
I think the problem with Origins wasn’t that it had a slow starts, it was that it had two slow starts back to back before the game really opened up. First we had the origin and then everything from Ostagar pretty much through Lothering. If we can have just one I would prefer it as a chance to get to know who my character is before being thrown into crisis if they had done a conclave prequel then BAM it would've avoided that problem.
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Post by sandwichtern on Aug 29, 2019 13:58:25 GMT
I'd like for it to be a slow(er) start. However, it does not need to be as extensive as in DAO with different race/class origins. I wouldn't mind if they stuck to one "tutorial" beginning with minor differences/options depending on class/race. Something that introduces your character and maybe a cohort or two you can meet again later in the game. Speaking of introductory sequences, because there are both players who wish their characters to have no ready-made backgrounds and those who prefer to have a backstory and people related to it with whom their character can interact, it would be nice if they could come up with a compromise that enabled both sides to get what they want. I wonder if it would be too expensive to craft one tutorial beginning shared by all classes and races which contained a couple of special backgrounds which a player could choose from or disregard if they wanted. Those wanting the Origin-style experience would by choosing (via dialogue, perhaps?) one of these mini-missions get to immerse themselves into Tevinter culture from a particular viewpoint. Maybe the player character would visit one of the Tevinter landmarks and catch a discussion about a manor which is set to be auctioned after the mysterious disappearance of its Magister owner? A backgroundless character could head there wanting to land a job guarding the place until the auction, but a special background could put you in the role of: - a dwarf or half-dwarf child (i.e. pick a dwarf or a human during character creator) or an adopted child (pick a qunari or an elf) to an Ambassadoria dwarf and sent by the aforementioned parent to view some of items up for sale - a member of a mage family from one of the more far-off regions of Tevinter looking to buy a new house in this particular city - a member of some insulated group (Qun? Elves?) trying to track a particular item/person connected to this manor/Magister for some purpose of theirs. Then plot things would happen but those who chose to do so would also get to play couple of sidemissions involving their chosen background as the main plot advanced. Even though I was perfectly fine playing a game starting like DA:I or DA2, I think it would be a bit of a shame if we didn't get to sample some of the more intriguing background options a canvas like Tevinter could offer.
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 29, 2019 23:21:54 GMT
Northern Thedas, Tevinter especially, is radically different to Southern Thedas culturally, not to mention that we have had a few years in between games, so an introductionary prologue similar to Origins, explaining how certain classes/races/cultures live in Tevinter and how Tevinter responds to them would be of benefit. A nice way to introduce us to the setting, ease new players to the franchise and give us a sense of attachment to our player character.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 30, 2019 14:54:20 GMT
I had an idea for an opening years ago that I hoped would be a midpoint between Inquisition and Origins in this respect. Assuming race choice, my idea is that DA4 will kick off in a Tevinter city as it prepares for a Qunari assault. There would basically be two “origins”
A “high-class” Origin for the human and dwarf characters being members of an Altus and Ambassadoria family respectively, with some variations in the NPC you talk to but ultimately using the same assets and following a similar plot and events.
A “low-class” Origin for qunari and elves being either both slaves or one or both being liberati would be another path, likewise containing variations but largely following the same story.
This would allow players to ground themselves in the class divisions of Tevinter before diving into everything, but should be a shorter lead up to the action when the Qunari assault hits. This is the sort of opening I’m hoping for.
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