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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2019 2:59:49 GMT
For what it is worth, pre-DAI (but after Multiplayer had been announced) a number of people on BSN Prime (myself included) asked if this sort of thing was possible. I think it was Allan who said there was a "non-trivial" cost associated with doing that. Something to do with having to pay Sony and Microsoft twice to host the same amount of content, plus a notion of "missed opportunity", meaning; if it is all bundled, then some SP only people might try it out of curiosity. Whereas if it required a separate download, those same people would be far less likely to try it. As for "live service" definitions - something in or around Assassin's Creed Odyssey would be perfect for me. I was apprehensive about it before I played it - Ubisoft don't have the best reputation on this front - but found it to be about as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. Everything in-game was better (and/or better looking) than the premium content. The Lost Tales were free. *shrug* Other people's mileage may vary, but if DA4's "live service" offerings follow that model...they can consider me a happy customer (assuming the game itself is actually fun, but I'm not too concerned on that score). The two modes are bundled in GTA5 and RDR2 if I didn't misunderstand what you said. I can't really see the problem. As for AC Odyssey which is suddenly favored by many, I would say it is a bit too grinding and I hate to see a grinding singleplayer game. Sorry - I must have misunderstood you. You said; I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I've not played either game, so I just assumed that meant they were downloaded separately. The entire first part of my post becomes irrelevant, then. As for grinding, well, I did say it was as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. It's progression system was very slow, but since the gameplay was fun - for me - I didn't find it that much of an issue.
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Post by apollexander on Aug 21, 2019 3:18:28 GMT
The two modes are bundled in GTA5 and RDR2 if I didn't misunderstand what you said. I can't really see the problem. As for AC Odyssey which is suddenly favored by many, I would say it is a bit too grinding and I hate to see a grinding singleplayer game. Sorry - I must have misunderstood you. You said; I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I've not played either game, so I just assumed that meant they were downloaded separately. The entire first part of my post becomes irrelevant, then. As for grinding, well, I did say it was as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. It's progression system was very slow, but since the gameplay was fun - for me - I didn't find it that much of an issue. It's OK. Let me explain a bit more. For those two games, Rockstar released a solid game with only a story mode at launch, and released the online mode as a big update later. You have to download a lot to update but that's it. Then the games are like DAI and MEA where you choose the mode at the menu screen. The two modes are just as separated as in Bioware's games. In my opinion that would be almost perfect. At launch you get a solid singleplayer experience and reviews will not be affected by those online operation things. Later, 'live service' can be totally online and they can get long-term income by micro-transactions. However, EA probably cannot wait a few more weeks for the online things.
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Post by phoray on Aug 21, 2019 3:19:22 GMT
As for grinding, well, I did say it was as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. It's progression system was very slow, but since the gameplay was fun - for me - I didn't find it that much of an issue. I didn't mind it, even enjoyed it, while there was Main Story Content to enjoy. I also thought the Merc chasing wsa fun until I realized there was no end to them, therefore no real meaning to them. My meh kicked in 60 hours in, and by 80 hours I was pretty fed up with it. I also am not a person who changes my skills up depending on who I'm fighting, so the limited skill slots also inhibited me from branching out into newer styles of fighting. Still, I never noticed the Level Limites that people complained about, just like I never noticed the power limits DAI had, because apparently I explore enough side content naturally to just avoid that problem without trying. What my issue with AC Odd related to this point was my character kept leveling so quickly, that if I wanted to keep gear, I had to update it. And I then absolutely had to grind for materials to update my crap. So I wish the leveling slowed down after the inital level requirements in the story were met. Because I was absolutely hating the game that I had to go like... kill 100 things and plow into 100 boats to be able to bring my gear up to my current level.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2019 4:34:00 GMT
Sorry - I must have misunderstood you. You said; I've not played either game, so I just assumed that meant they were downloaded separately. The entire first part of my post becomes irrelevant, then. As for grinding, well, I did say it was as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. It's progression system was very slow, but since the gameplay was fun - for me - I didn't find it that much of an issue. It's OK. Let me explain a bit more. For those two games, Rockstar released a solid game with only a story mode at launch, and released the online mode as a big update later. You have to download a lot to update but that's it. Then the games are like DAI and MEA where you choose the mode at the menu screen. The two modes are just as separated as in Bioware's games. In my opinion that would be almost perfect. At launch you get a solid singleplayer experience and reviews will not be affected by those online operation things. Later, 'live service' can be totally online and they can get long-term income by micro-transactions. However, EA probably cannot wait a few more weeks for the online things. Ah - Ok. I did - more or less - understand you then. I agree, that would be fantastic. I just can't see it happening. I would love it if it did, though.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2019 4:39:22 GMT
As for grinding, well, I did say it was as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. It's progression system was very slow, but since the gameplay was fun - for me - I didn't find it that much of an issue. I didn't mind it, even enjoyed it, while there was Main Story Content to enjoy. I also thought the Merc chasing wsa fun until I realized there was no end to them, therefore no real meaning to them. My meh kicked in 60 hours in, and by 80 hours I was pretty fed up with it. I also am not a person who changes my skills up depending on who I'm fighting, so the limited skill slots also inhibited me from branching out into newer styles of fighting. Still, I never noticed the Level Limites that people complained about, just like I never noticed the power limits DAI had, because apparently I explore enough side content naturally to just avoid that problem without trying. What my issue with AC Odd related to this point was my character kept leveling so quickly, that if I wanted to keep gear, I had to update it. And I then absolutely had to grind for materials to update my crap. So I wish the leveling slowed down after the inital level requirements in the story were met. Because I was absolutely hating the game that I had to go like... kill 100 things and plow into 100 boats to be able to bring my gear up to my current level. Interesting. I did notice the level limits, but because I did, the material requirements were largely irrelevant as I almost always had enough (because I was constantly traipsing across Greece and picking up wood and metal and leather). Regardless - as a live service game (supposedly the end of gaming as we know it) - Odyssey had a very, very light lean on premium content/purchases. Now - if the gameplay had not been fun for me, then I'd have a different view on matters. But that just comes down to personal taste, I guess. I works for some people, and not so much for others.
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Post by saandrig on Aug 21, 2019 9:12:16 GMT
I think the safest model would be something along the lines of how AC:OD does it. It's still not great, but I think it would be more acceptable to the playerbase. Though whether BW has the resources to continue to generate post-release content like Ubisoft can would be another question. The model is annoying (to some players at least) because it relies on giving you extra content in small bits over a whole year in order to keep you in/coming back to the game and being tempted to splash cash on the shinies from the store. But so far this remains as probably the best live service for a single player game. It's not intrusive "gimme your wallet" type of offering, doesn't limit the cool gear to store only, has minimal effect on the gameplay (the winged horse is great QoL, but they finally gave one available for ingame currency even if available for purchase just for a week) and you receive a complete game from Day 1 without having to pay more for the ending.
AC Odyssey seems like a huge success for Ubisoft and apparently is the most lucrative AC game to date. Obviously the live service model worked. Even if I am not a fan of receiving a DLC in 3-part episodes I prefer it this way instead of resources being thrown to make a MP mode (which I never play in my SP games) that tries to milk cash from the players. Even worse will be if 95% of the armor/companions/mounts/weapons are only available in the store for real cash.
If EA is smart, they will try to follow the ACOD model to the letter. I am curious how they will monetize the upcoming Jedi Fallen order. Maybe that will give us the clue. However if EA are greedy and stupid, I can see DA4 becoming a co-op Anthem with Dragons trying to milk players for each piece of gear. Or maybe they will put huge grinding walls in your progress (which you can pay to avoid) like Shadow of War did. People say ACOD is grindy (it really isn't unless you try to clear every map location and you get level gated only if you skip many gold quests), but it's nothing compared to what Shadow of War pulled. Heck, everyone's YMMV, but to me DAI is more grindy than ACOD, Witcher 1 is more grindy, KOTOR is more grindy and you are level gated horribly if you don't do side quests (KOTOR 2 is even worse), DAO flat out level gates you at Orzammar with high level bandits and unless you side quest, you have a hard time to progress. Every SP game is grindy to some extent, but if it can hide it well, it's a plus. Unfortunately a boring grind can be used as a blackmail to force players to open the wallet.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2019 10:04:32 GMT
I agree Fallen Order could be a good guide to how live service might be implemented in DA4. Hopefully, for both FO and DA4, they take the position that people who continue playing and enjoying games are more likely to spend a bit extra, than those who are bored of what they've made and just want it to be over. Because the quickest way for it to be over is to uninstall and check out the ending(s) on YouTube. But "Anthem with dragons"...? That should come with a trigger warning
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Post by colfoley on Aug 21, 2019 10:23:00 GMT
I didn't think Fallen Order was going to be monetized, at least to the extent of a live service game.
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coldsteelblue
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
PSN: coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Aug 21, 2019 10:29:21 GMT
So, the way I see "live service" is simply this:
The game has an element of real-time communication across the internet, between game & host.
If we view it that way, then every Dragon Age game has had a live service element, as you needed an active internet connection to upload your character & decisions to the original incarnation of BSN & later The Keep. To me that is the most basic form of live service & while an internet connection is required to send the data, it is not required for play.
Live service offers other options too, like balance changes & hotfixes, things that can be done without a patch thing that can benefit the player, you can also have time released content & special events, all done on the fly.
However, it can also be really badly handled as we have seen, with limited gameplay trying to direct the player to MP, aggressive monetization & boosters to name just a few.
How it will be implemented in DA4, for now we don't know, all we can do is speculate.
In close, I think that live service is nothing more than requiring an internet for content changes for a game.
My thoughts.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Aug 21, 2019 12:50:05 GMT
I can guarantee that their vision of a "live-service" will require internet connection to their servers to play the game. Even if there is a "single player", it will be as anemic as Anthem's and still require logging in. This is untenable to me. This will all but guarantee that you will not be able to play the game in the future once EA turns off the servers. I like to be able to play the games I buy whenever I want in the future and not feel like I am renting the experience.
Assassin's Creed Odyssey had a good "live service" aspect in that it did not require internet to play the game. The online store would be unavailable while offline, but you can still play the game and all DLC that you already downloaded. If DA4 had something like this, I would be okay with it but we all know what EA is planning.
If I am wrong (which I won't be), I will eat crow.
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Post by ergates on Aug 21, 2019 13:37:42 GMT
I can guarantee that their vision of a "live-service" will require internet connection to their servers to play the game. Even if there is a "single player", it will be as anemic as Anthem's and still require logging in. This is untenable to me. This will all but guarantee that you will not be able to play the game in the future once EA turns off the servers. I like to be able to play the games I buy whenever I want in the future and not feel like I am renting the experience. Assassin's Creed Odyssey had a good "live service" aspect in that it did not require internet to play the game. The online store would be unavailable while offline, but you can still play the game and all DLC that you already downloaded. If DA4 had something like this, I would be okay with it but we all know what EA is planning. If I am wrong (which I won't be), I will eat crow. I admit to worrying about this myself. What happens if, or when Origin (or for that matter Steam) decide to pull the plug? For some games that do not require an internet connection I guess there may be various workarounds that we can use that allow us to install them without the Origin/Steam client, but what of the ones that require a connection to the host client? In this respect, it does rather feel like we're renting these games. Best we can hope for I guess is that people from the gaming community will create Origin or Steam emulation servers; and given that gaming communities are constantly creating source ports, engine overlays etc. for all kinds of legacy games, allowing them to run on modern hardware, it's not a big step to imagine it happening.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 21, 2019 18:58:19 GMT
I can guarantee that their vision of a "live-service" will require internet connection to their servers to play the game. Even if there is a "single player", it will be as anemic as Anthem's and still require logging in. This is untenable to me. This will all but guarantee that you will not be able to play the game in the future once EA turns off the servers. I like to be able to play the games I buy whenever I want in the future and not feel like I am renting the experience. Assassin's Creed Odyssey had a good "live service" aspect in that it did not require internet to play the game. The online store would be unavailable while offline, but you can still play the game and all DLC that you already downloaded. If DA4 had something like this, I would be okay with it but we all know what EA is planning. If I am wrong (which I won't be), I will eat crow. can you also post the lottery numbers so we can all win a million bucks?
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xrayspex73
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Post by xrayspex73 on Aug 22, 2019 6:30:47 GMT
I can guarantee that their vision of a "live-service" will require internet connection to their servers to play the game. Even if there is a "single player", it will be as anemic as Anthem's and still require logging in. This is untenable to me. This will all but guarantee that you will not be able to play the game in the future once EA turns off the servers. I like to be able to play the games I buy whenever I want in the future and not feel like I am renting the experience. Assassin's Creed Odyssey had a good "live service" aspect in that it did not require internet to play the game. The online store would be unavailable while offline, but you can still play the game and all DLC that you already downloaded. If DA4 had something like this, I would be okay with it but we all know what EA is planning. If I am wrong (which I won't be), I will eat crow. can you also post the lottery numbers so we can all win a million bucks?
If you think postulating on and correctly guessing lottery numbers somehow equates to the same chances of EAware destroying Dragon Age with their "live-service", you give EA and Bioware far too much credit.
Given EA's track record, we may not see another singleplayer game from Bioware ever.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 22, 2019 7:24:58 GMT
can you also post the lottery numbers so we can all win a million bucks?
If you think postulating on and correctly guessing lottery numbers somehow equates to the same chances of EAware destroying Dragon Age with their "live-service", you give EA and Bioware far too much credit.
Given EA's track record, we may not see another singleplayer game from Bioware ever.
Here's the problem with your argument: Casey Hudson has more or less indicated DA4 will be a SP experience like any of BioWare's SP RPGs and will be focused on things that BioWare fans will enjoy. And until we get more information that is exactly the credit I am going to give them. As far as track records are concerned EA/ BioWare hasn't released a game I haven't liked yet so I am expecting the same thing for the next game in the theory.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 22, 2019 8:02:51 GMT
Live service = cant mod it without breaching the ToS. Well not neccessarily, but that is the trend. In any case modding will be a pain. Or any kind of tweaking your experience. But maybe they sell gold and xp boosts so you dont need to cheat anymore.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Aug 22, 2019 12:57:27 GMT
If you think postulating on and correctly guessing lottery numbers somehow equates to the same chances of EAware destroying Dragon Age with their "live-service", you give EA and Bioware far too much credit.
Given EA's track record, we may not see another singleplayer game from Bioware ever.
Here's the problem with your argument: Casey Hudson has more or less indicated DA4 will be a SP experience like any of BioWare's SP RPGs and will be focused on things that BioWare fans will enjoy. And until we get more information that is exactly the credit I am going to give them. As far as track records are concerned EA/ BioWare hasn't released a game I haven't liked yet so I am expecting the same thing for the next game in the theory.
I have no doubt that DA4 will have a singleplayer component. My point is that you will still need to log into their servers to play the singleplayer. This is my biggest issue with how EAware are clearly positioning themselves.
But hey, go ahead and keep up the facade that Bioware is still Bioware.
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bladefist
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: bladefist1
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Post by bladefist on Aug 22, 2019 16:42:48 GMT
Live service - the process of fixing or finishing an intentionally released buggy, unfinished game while adding microtransactions.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 22, 2019 18:54:31 GMT
Here's the problem with your argument: Casey Hudson has more or less indicated DA4 will be a SP experience like any of BioWare's SP RPGs and will be focused on things that BioWare fans will enjoy. And until we get more information that is exactly the credit I am going to give them. As far as track records are concerned EA/ BioWare hasn't released a game I haven't liked yet so I am expecting the same thing for the next game in the theory.
I have no doubt that DA4 will have a singleplayer component. My point is that you will still need to log into their servers to play the singleplayer. This is my biggest issue with how EAware are clearly positioning themselves.
But hey, go ahead and keep up the facade that Bioware is still Bioware.
A. Bioware is always the same company I've always known and loved. And before you say "but Anthem" TOR was released in 2011. So they seem to like to experiment...including a MP game here and there. B. Here you have an interesting point but one I'm not sure is going to matter. Based on things I've read and heard the entire industry may have to move in this direction. Apparently you can do a lot more if games are on internal servers. And while your concern about them turning off their servers is worth heading...I do believe ME 3s MP is still on and that game is going on seven years old...is seven years old.
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saandrig
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Aug 22, 2019 20:03:25 GMT
I have no doubt that DA4 will have a singleplayer component. My point is that you will still need to log into their servers to play the singleplayer. This is my biggest issue with how EAware are clearly positioning themselves.
But hey, go ahead and keep up the facade that Bioware is still Bioware.
A. Bioware is always the same company I've always known and loved. And before you say "but Anthem" TOR was released in 2011. So they seem to like to experiment...including a MP game here and there. While Bioware likes to experiment, I would argue they used to do it while maintaining the base formula, that made them famous, in every genre. Mass Effect was a shooter, but also heavily story driven with dialogue choices, morality meter, companions and romances. Same solid basic foundation Bioware did with BG1-2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, DAO. SWTOR was built on the same base formula, but in a MMO format - and it's always has been more of a single player experience than MMO to a vast majority of it's players. Even MEA is sticking to the Bioware formula, but it's just poorly executed compared to previous titles. Anthem is the first huge deviation in years for Bioware from their previous strengths - no companions, no romances, no morality meter, bare bones story and dialogue choices that are meaningless. Well, they didn't learn a lesson after Sonic I guess
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Post by colfoley on Aug 22, 2019 20:11:35 GMT
A. Bioware is always the same company I've always known and loved. And before you say "but Anthem" TOR was released in 2011. So they seem to like to experiment...including a MP game here and there. While Bioware likes to experiment, I would argue they used to do it while maintaining the base formula, that made them famous, in every genre. Mass Effect was a shooter, but also heavily story driven with dialogue choices, morality meter, companions and romances. Same solid basic foundation Bioware did with BG1-2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, DAO. SWTOR was built on the same base formula, but in a MMO format - and it's always has been more of a single player experience than MMO to a vast majority of it's players. Even MEA is sticking to the Bioware formula, but it's just poorly executed compared to previous titles. Anthem is the first huge deviation in years for Bioware from their previous strengths - no companions, no romances, no morality meter, bare bones story and dialogue choices that are meaningless. Well, they didn't learn a lesson after Sonic I guess perhaps. But there is no reason to assume that will be the new trend.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Aug 23, 2019 15:32:48 GMT
From everything they've been suggesting DA4 is gonna be as much a DA game as DA:I was, but it will be delivered in a way that is somehow "live service". It doesn't mean multiplayer-focused as Mark Darrah already suggested that Mass Effect and Dragon Age likely won't take that approach ever, but it could be like the "Act 1, 2, 3" system in Anthem where they basically prepare different bulks of storytelling for launch and then later.
DA:I felt expertly expanded with Trespasser DLC as a story. If you imagine taking all 3 acts of a plot and spreading it out over a year under the same budget as a normal game with DLC it might be interesting. It probably won't be that though. I think it's literally just a single player game with DLC extensive content and it's being marketed and labeled "live service" just because that appeases EA's business but in reality it's the same stuff as usual, perhaps with a few cosmetic microtransactions (5 bucks for plaidweave!) stored into the single player content.
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They call me a Space Cowboy
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Aug 17, 2016 20:09:17 GMT
August 2016
spacecowboy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 23, 2019 17:44:40 GMT
From everything they've been suggesting DA4 is gonna be as much a DA game as DA:I was, but it will be delivered in a way that is somehow "live service". It doesn't mean multiplayer-focused as Mark Darrah already suggested that Mass Effect and Dragon Age likely won't take that approach ever, but it could be like the "Act 1, 2, 3" system in Anthem where they basically prepare different bulks of storytelling for launch and then later. DA:I felt expertly expanded with Trespasser DLC as a story. If you imagine taking all 3 acts of a plot and spreading it out over a year under the same budget as a normal game with DLC it might be interesting. It probably won't be that though. I think it's literally just a single player game with DLC extensive content and it's being marketed and labeled "live service" just because that appeases EA's business but in reality it's the same stuff as usual, perhaps with a few cosmetic microtransactions (5 bucks for plaidweave!) stored into the single player content. The problem with that is, Joplin already could have been that, but they rebooted it to add more live service hooks or whatever. Whatever it turns out to be , I don’t see it being the same as dai or me3 as far as mp and dlc go. That would have been Joplin
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Post by colfoley on Aug 24, 2019 7:52:48 GMT
From everything they've been suggesting DA4 is gonna be as much a DA game as DA:I was, but it will be delivered in a way that is somehow "live service". It doesn't mean multiplayer-focused as Mark Darrah already suggested that Mass Effect and Dragon Age likely won't take that approach ever, but it could be like the "Act 1, 2, 3" system in Anthem where they basically prepare different bulks of storytelling for launch and then later. DA:I felt expertly expanded with Trespasser DLC as a story. If you imagine taking all 3 acts of a plot and spreading it out over a year under the same budget as a normal game with DLC it might be interesting. It probably won't be that though. I think it's literally just a single player game with DLC extensive content and it's being marketed and labeled "live service" just because that appeases EA's business but in reality it's the same stuff as usual, perhaps with a few cosmetic microtransactions (5 bucks for plaidweave!) stored into the single player content. I could see them doing this. I could probably be happy with it. Just that BioWare will really be playing with fire if they make us wait an additional months after release for the end of the Solas story given we have been waiting...lots of years at this point. That and they have to make sure again to put enough content in at launch.
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cankiie
N3
People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
Posts: 457 Likes: 281
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Sept 1, 2019 18:37:34 GMT
Live service is stupid is what it is.
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