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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 15, 2019 13:17:36 GMT
this DLC from CDPR was cut out of the game as marketing material to convince people to buy their product so they make more money. I don't understand this argument. Its like when people go to a store because there is some freebie if you buy something. In reality its junk to the retailer, but the consumer thinks its a good deal because they are getting something for nothing when to the retailer it was baked into the price of the item sold.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 15, 2019 13:20:32 GMT
I don't understand this argument. Its like when people go to a store because there is some freebie if you buy something. In reality its junk to the retailer, but the consumer thinks its a good deal because they are getting something for nothing when to the retailer it was baked into the price of the item sold. And that's ... bad?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 15, 2019 13:26:05 GMT
Its the same argument people use against other developers they cut it out of the main game for one reason or another. If you want to say Day 1 DLC was cut out of the game to be sold for more money, this DLC from CDPR was cut out of the game as marketing material to convince people to buy their product so they make more money. Yes, I do believe that tiny bit of content was cut and repackaged for PR purposes. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just pointing out that they got a HUGE ton of praise for such little effort.
I'm GLAD that there's one AAA developer out there right now who doesn't nickle and dime their players. Don't get me wrong. They are my current heroes too. Doesn't mean that they aren't smart marketing businessmen too.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 15, 2019 13:34:59 GMT
You're actually comparing a skin to something like From the Ashes? A squadmate from a race players had been waiting to see.
I can see people being upset at things like NG+ or player customization option being just as important to them. Maybe it wasn't for you, but the amount of complaints I see about Geralt not being an avatar for a person I can see things like that being important to them and for me something like NG+ is something I would use more then Javik.
Well, I really used that comparison because one is cosmetic whereas the other is actual story content. That mission and the conversations with him laid out a lot of back story. People had been wanting to know more about Protehans since the first game. They knew this and sold it as Day 1 DLC.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 15, 2019 13:40:27 GMT
I don't understand this argument. Its like when people go to a store because there is some freebie if you buy something. In reality its junk to the retailer, but the consumer thinks its a good deal because they are getting something for nothing when to the retailer it was baked into the price of the item sold. But the price for the game would have been the same either way, so the player actually saved money.
There's a difference between giving the illusion of getting more than the next person, and actually getting more.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 15, 2019 13:57:57 GMT
There's a difference between giving the illusion of getting more than the next person, and actually getting more.
...the free stuff in Witcher 3 I would argue was ALL about the illusion of getting something cool. Hence my entire argument about a brilliant marketing stunt. Now of course the actual game and paid DLC was top notch as well. So the whole package endeared CDPR to a lot of people. And yet that free stuff is constantly being brought up. That was icing on the cake and CDPR knew people would gobble it up like starved dogs.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 15, 2019 13:58:50 GMT
But the price for the game would have been the same either way, so the player actually saved money. Even if it wasn't content that would otherwise be paid and should be in the game, it is content that you would have got, either way, with a PR spin instead of saying "delayed for polish" or "incomplete", so you avoid the backlash. In the end, it cost you nothing, but perhaps a little patience, while already having "the game". Here is a list of things CDPR could have done instead: - Dropping the content altogether - Making it paid DLC - Delaying the release of TW3 to complete the content, should it have been in need of further work All three are worse choices for the consumer. Any other publisher would have chosen one of the first two options. CDPR didn't. As far as consumers are concerned, it was a good move. Why is it being painted as bad?
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Post by themikefest on Oct 15, 2019 14:04:57 GMT
I can see people being upset at things like NG+ or player customization option being just as important to them. Maybe it wasn't for you, but the amount of complaints I see about Geralt not being an avatar for a person I can see things like that being important to them and for me something like NG+ is something I would use more then Javik.
Well, I really used that comparison because one is cosmetic whereas the other is actual story content. That mission and the conversations with him laid out a lot of back story. People had been wanting to know more about Protehans since the first game. They knew this and sold it as Day 1 DLC.
Had Bioware been given more time for ME3, Javik would not have been in a dlc https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/1wyz7e/some_interesting_facts_about_me3s_development/
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 15, 2019 14:05:22 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 15, 2019 14:14:03 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead. CDPR fucking up somehow, somewhere, is an inevitability. But the way we talk about CDPR today, is how we talked about Bioware 10 years ago. 20 years ago. Pointing out what Bioware did wrong yestearday, is how Bioware will do better today to be considered as high as CDPR, tomorrow.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 15, 2019 15:11:29 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead. CDPR fucking up somehow, somewhere, is an inevitability. But the way we talk about CDPR today, is how we talked about Bioware 10 years ago. 20 years ago. Pointing out what Bioware did wrong yestearday, is how Bioware will do better today to be considered as high as CDPR, tomorrow. Depends on how we're defining messing up. If the quality of the product remains good, they'll be forgiven for anything little, unless they really get greedy.
The freebies didn't really do it for me like I said in my other post. It was the two DLC packs for $20. If you compare that to what you got out of some of the DA:I packs which were $9.99 to $14.99 IIRC for far less content, it was far and away more content, value, and quality.
So to bring this back to the original questiont. Would Bioware need to be offering this type of quality DLC to compete in the future. Because the bar was definitely raised. They keep doing this with future games, every time someone sells a DLC for the same or more, players are going to say CDPR gave twice as much content or more for this price.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2019 15:14:48 GMT
Witcher 3's free "DLC" was nothing but a brilliant marketing stunt. You may like or dislike their games but they do know how to get gamers on their side with their "rebellion" against everything wrong in gaming. It's a very transparent strategy but it's WORKING. It's working so well, their fandom is ready to build monuments in their name. What these freebies boiled down to were a number of very short simple quests (only one of which I thought was even interesting), a super trashy outfit for Triss and a few useless items, I think. No doubt taken out of the game to sell back to you as free stuff. As I said, brilliant marketing. Those were day 1 items though, right? So hardly the same thing as the drip-feed nonsense nobody needs that Ubisoft does now. CDPR got everyone to sing their praises before the game was even released for all the free stuff you got with the game. After that, we got two amazing quality DLCs. There was no real live service involving the base game. It was smoke and mirrors.
Cyberpunk is the game that will show just how different CDPR really is because it will have a multiplayer part. Will they really not do MTX? I have my doubts. Going to be interesting how they'll spin things to look different from others when they aren't really. Marketing is an area where Bioware should really step up their game. CDPR has everyone beat in that respect for sure. They know how to play gamers like nobody's business.
Keep in mind now with 2077 multiplayer, it will not release with the base game but months after. Also unlike Rockstar which fell so in love with multiplayer money that they stopped with SP DLC, CDPR already said 2077 will have post launch SP DLC in the same quality as Blood and Wine/Hearts of Stone. What this does is reassures their base that first and foremost 2077 is a SP game and they have said this many of times. This is unlike Anthem in which Bioware tried to have it both ways by marketing the game as a MP game but kept the perception that it was going to have the same ole SP Biowarr experience as past Bioware games. If anything, what Bioware should do/keep doing with DA4 is come out and say DA4 is a SP experience and that any MP component will be complimentary to the base game, not the primary focus. I think they have done this but they should keep doing it.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2019 15:14:50 GMT
Well, I really used that comparison because one is cosmetic whereas the other is actual story content. That mission and the conversations with him laid out a lot of back story. People had been wanting to know more about Protehans since the first game. They knew this and sold it as Day 1 DLC.
Had Bioware been given more time for ME3, Javik would not have been in a dlc https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/1wyz7e/some_interesting_facts_about_me3s_development/
Well, actually, Bio was given an extension. Just not enough of one. I presume Omega would have been the day 1 DLC in that alternate timeline. I personally never got why anyone cared all that much about Protheans. The whole point of ME1 was that their civilization wasn't very important in itself; except for a handful of scientists who did something useful, the Protheans were just another exterminated civilization.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2019 15:16:40 GMT
The freebies didn't really do it for me like I said in my other post. It was the two DLC packs for $20. If you compare that to what you got out of some of the DA:I packs which were $9.99 to $14.99 IIRC for far less content, it was far and away more content, value, and quality. How big are those DLCs? TW3 base game was enough TW3 for me.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2019 15:23:36 GMT
You're trying to oversimplify what they did. They set themselves apart through more than just simple marketing.
Yes, they didn't charge money for these freebies. How much of that is was done out of the goodness of their hearts and how much was done because that goodwill will make them money in the long term is everyone's guess. They're doing better not being greedy right now. How long they can afford to be this noble, we'll see. But they are a company, and like all companies, they're doing what's deem profitable. With many gamers being so very disillusioned and fed up with greedy publishers, it's the smart thing to do to be the savior of gaming as a passion.
You are looking at it from a glass half empty approach, almost as if you just do not want to give credit for what they have done. Honestly whether they did it for marketing purposes or goodwill is irrelevant. What matters is that they did it while other developers dont.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 15, 2019 15:31:25 GMT
The freebies didn't really do it for me like I said in my other post. It was the two DLC packs for $20. If you compare that to what you got out of some of the DA:I packs which were $9.99 to $14.99 IIRC for far less content, it was far and away more content, value, and quality. How big are those DLCs? TW3 base game was enough TW3 for me.
One is probably like 10-15 hours, and the other is probably like 20-25 hours. This is assuming you don't just beeline through their main story. Quality content, not fluff. To get both for twenty bucks was awesome. It's a shame that developers don't want to invest the resources to make expansion type content anymore. And this was expansion type content for the price of what DLC goes for nowadays, less in some cases.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2019 15:31:44 GMT
There was more than this. There were armor sets, an alternate outfit for Yennifer, weapons. The kind of stuff other companies were nickeling and diming players for. They took that outrage and used it in their favor. Most things I've seen in game stores. lootboxes, etc are things like this. What is Anthem selling in their store, skins, armor, alloys, etc. Not anything that adds to the game. Same with the old armor and gun packs from ME.
That's where they earned the good faith, by not nickling and diming the players like other developers were. They could have easily sold this stuff in an online store and players would have bought it.
Then, what they actually sold the players was high quality content, not the normal 1 - 2 hr DLC, but expansion level content. Which was also something players weren't used to. Stuff that made people say, 'this is what DLC should be like'.
You're trying to oversimplify what they did. They set themselves apart through more than just simple marketing.
Its the same argument people use against other developers they cut it out of the main game for one reason or another. If you want to say Day 1 DLC was cut out of the game to be sold for more money, this DLC from CDPR was cut out of the game as marketing material to convince people to buy their product so they make more money. From Ashes from ME3 was an essential part of not only the ME3 story but the overall ME arch. For crying out loud you get a Prothean squad mate who adds a lot to the narrative. Name one free DLC from TW3 that featured a NPC that was essential to the overall Witcher plot. Name one free TW3 free DLC that was a major component to the game and overall plot. Please do.... You are really scrapping from the bottom of the barrel simply cause you dont want to give CDPR any credit which is what your argument boils down to.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 15, 2019 15:39:14 GMT
You are looking at it from a glass half empty approach, almost as if you just do not want to give credit for what they have done. Honestly whether they did it for marketing purposes or goodwill is irrelevant. What matters is that they did it while other developers dont. Ah come on, Jazz, lay off a bit. You do know I'm on your side when it comes to CDPR, right? *throws a troll treat as a peace offering*
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 15, 2019 15:48:04 GMT
I bought TW3 as wossname edition with all stuff bundled in. For half price than base game at launch. No live service whatsoever. Just buy complete products and you're good.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 15, 2019 16:32:13 GMT
The freebies didn't really do it for me like I said in my other post. It was the two DLC packs for $20. If you compare that to what you got out of some of the DA:I packs which were $9.99 to $14.99 IIRC for far less content, it was far and away more content, value, and quality. How big are those DLCs? TW3 base game was enough TW3 for me. A modest estimate is 15 hrs for Heart of Stone and around 25 for Blood and Wine. But you can easily spend more. I was almost up to 40 with Blood and Wine. So they were both priced well below the market standard, to the point of undercutting the competition. And while people appreciated the DLC, it was the expansions that made a stronger impression on gamers I'm sure.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2019 17:01:17 GMT
From Ashes from ME3 was an essential part of not only the ME3 story but the overall ME arch. For crying out loud you get a Prothean squad mate who adds a lot to the narrative. Essential.... how? Seriously, I don't even know what you're talking about here.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 15, 2019 17:02:31 GMT
How big are those DLCs? TW3 base game was enough TW3 for me.
One is probably like 10-15 hours, and the other is probably like 20-25 hours. This is assuming you don't just beeline through their main story. Quality content, not fluff. To get both for twenty bucks was awesome. It's a shame that developers don't want to invest the resources to make expansion type content anymore. And this was expansion type content for the price of what DLC goes for nowadays, less in some cases.
Be interesting to see what the economics on those DLCs turned out to be.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 15, 2019 17:06:21 GMT
Itll be interesting to see how BioWare tackles their live service; especially since they're likely going to have multiplayer attached to it. I feel like AC:Odyssey did a fairly decent job with balancing free live updates with paid for content, though I imagine the episodic nature of the paid DLC might have ticked some people off.
That actually makes me wonder if this will be the approach bioware takes with their single player DLC. Mike Gamble (IIRC) made hints that there would be free, bite-sized story elements thrown into the game periodically. Nothing definitive on story dlcs though. EA is likely going to want the multiplayer aspect of the game up and running during release, so I dont really know how BioWare is going to be able to balance the live service aspect for both SP and MP, while also - potentially - making paid for DLC.
I feel like EA kinda shot them in the foot since BioWare Montreal would normally be the studio that helped them out with stuff like this. Now that it's been dissolved, it's only Edmonton and Austin, with Austin seemingly taking the brunt of the work with Anthem; in addition to SWTOR.
Probably goes further to Casey Hudsons point of them needing to hire more developers.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 15, 2019 17:36:39 GMT
One is probably like 10-15 hours, and the other is probably like 20-25 hours. This is assuming you don't just beeline through their main story. Quality content, not fluff. To get both for twenty bucks was awesome. It's a shame that developers don't want to invest the resources to make expansion type content anymore. And this was expansion type content for the price of what DLC goes for nowadays, less in some cases.
Be interesting to see what the economics on those DLCs turned out to be.
I don't think huge profits are their primary concern. They want to expand their presence, their market share.
You can expand market share in several ways.
1) Innovation. Do something not being done by anyone else. CDPR hasn't really done this. They haven't changed the genre. 2) Make a better quality product than your competitors. Whether CDPR has done this will vary depending upon who you ask. I think they have. 3) Address the pain points of competitors customers/clients. They've done this. People were tried of getting nickled and dimed, they gave people quality and value and then some. 4) What might be the most important one. Building your relationship with customers/clients, your brand loyalty. They are doing a masterful job at this.
So now that they've increased the market share, if they want to charge a little more for DLC on Cyberpunk 2077 they can. Because people know it will be quality, and if they say it will be expansions on the level of the Witcher 3, people won't care about paying a extra for that level of content. Because even if it were $15 and not $10, it would still be well worth the asking price. Especially when other developers will probably still be charging that price for lesser DLC.
This is one of Bioware's current issues. Their name isn't synonymous with quality anymore, and they don't really have a great relationship with the players anymore. After FF XIV failed on release, Square came out and said they were sorry, this did not live up to our name, or what you expect from us.
Bioware on the other hand is saying nonsense like Andromeda is hidden gem, players just have to take the time dig for it. Like it's the players fault or something. Or they release a video about what goes into making a game, basically saying people don't understand what we go through to make this stuff. Anything to keep from saying we fucked up. It just comes off as arrogance, hubris. A little contrition would go a long way for them.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 15, 2019 18:53:03 GMT
You are looking at it from a glass half empty approach, almost as if you just do not want to give credit for what they have done. Honestly whether they did it for marketing purposes or goodwill is irrelevant. What matters is that they did it while other developers dont. Ah come on, Jazz, lay off a bit. You do know I'm on your side when it comes to CDPR, right? *throws a troll treat as a peace offering* Either way, I think Bioware should do this. I mean, they used to be very involved in the community and had great goodwill. While it may seem forced, I think Bioware's marketing/PR areas should focus on getting those brownie points. Thing is, how far can they go with EA? Bioware should make it known that SP is what their focus is and multiplayer is only secondary. They should release free DLC for DA4 in terms of weapons packs, skins and little side missions. For the physical game, they should include a little note from the team thanking all the fans for buying the product and how it is the fans that drives Bioware to make great games. Yes, all cringy things but its a start.
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