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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 15, 2019 23:18:17 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead. CDPR fucking up somehow, somewhere, is an inevitability. But the way we talk about CDPR today, is how we talked about Bioware 10 years ago. 20 years ago. Pointing out what Bioware did wrong yestearday, is how Bioware will do better today to be considered as high as CDPR, tomorrow. Okay, great, except I don't want BioWare to be like CDPR, and I don't want their games to be like Witcher 3. I already have Witcher 3.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 16, 2019 2:21:11 GMT
CDPR fucking up somehow, somewhere, is an inevitability. But the way we talk about CDPR today, is how we talked about Bioware 10 years ago. 20 years ago. Pointing out what Bioware did wrong yestearday, is how Bioware will do better today to be considered as high as CDPR, tomorrow. Okay, great, except I don't want BioWare to be like CDPR, and I don't want their games to be like Witcher 3. I already have Witcher 3. Bioware doesnt need TW3 or CP2077. But what they do need is CDPR marketing/PR success. Example of more marketing/PR from CDPR that is very consumer friendly: uk.ign.com/articles/2019/10/15/cyberpunk-2077-dev-calls-post-release-microtransactions-a-bad-idea?sf110659967=1Are they trying to gain brownie points? Perhaps, but who cares? This is a AAA developer essentially challenging the intentions of other AAA developers in an age where many consumers feel exploited by some devs in regards to Microtransactions. This is where it is a detriment to be associated with EA because Bioware does not have the freedom or even credibility to say the things CDPR says cause of their association with EA....one of of the main enablers of microtransactions.
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Post by Blast Processor on Oct 16, 2019 4:13:54 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead. Oh, but then we'll be comparing how CDPR fucked up vs how BioWare fucked up. Haha.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2019 4:44:27 GMT
Christ, I will be so relieved when CDPR finally fucks up and every thread on this forum doesn't pivot to only talking about them instead. Oh, but then we'll be comparing how CDPR fucked up vs how BioWare fucked up. Haha. "My animation bugs are better than your bugs!"
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 16, 2019 5:18:57 GMT
Oh, but then we'll be comparing how CDPR fucked up vs how BioWare fucked up. Haha. "My animation bugs are better than your bugs!" My favourite TW3 animation bug is the slow-mo Cossack dancers walking in circles throughout Blood and Wine.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 16, 2019 8:32:36 GMT
Either way, I think Bioware should do this. I mean, they used to be very involved in the community and had great goodwill. While it may seem forced, I think Bioware's marketing/PR areas should focus on getting those brownie points. Thing is, how far can they go with EA? Bioware should make it known that SP is what their focus is and multiplayer is only secondary. They should release free DLC for DA4 in terms of weapons packs, skins and little side missions. For the physical game, they should include a little note from the team thanking all the fans for buying the product and how it is the fans that drives Bioware to make great games. Yes, all cringy things but its a start. Assuming this will be the case... If it's not, I want them to come out and state clearly what excatly this game is going to be as early as possible. If it's always online with the story being delivered piecemeal because GaaS is so damn great, harhar, then it's off my list instantly.
If they go the same route as with MEA keeping a tight lid on it because it's another mess they'd rather not reveal to keep preorders, I will know too that Bioware is a lost cause. The torch has passed already anyway imo. I only keep somewhat updated on DA4 out of curiosity how bad they'll fuck that one up too.
The problem with winning back goodwill is that they actually need to have something to show in the first place. And as you say, this is EA. They call the shots. So good luck hoping for EA to give players anything for free. They'd rather ruin the reputation of a studio and kill it, then help them regain some ground. They do not need Bioware, but Bioware needs EA. Lose/lose situation imo.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,672 Likes: 6,654
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 16, 2019 9:32:07 GMT
Assuming this will be the case... If it's not, I want them to come out and state clearly what excatly this game is going to be as early as possible. If it's always online with the story being delivered piecemeal because GaaS is so damn great, harhar, then it's off my list instantly. If they go the same route as with MEA keeping a tight lid on it because it's another mess they'd rather not reveal to keep preorders, I will know too that Bioware is a lost cause. The torch has passed already anyway imo. I only keep somewhat updated on DA4 out of curiosity how bad they'll fuck that one up too.
The problem with winning back goodwill is that they actually need to have something to show in the first place. And as you say, this is EA. They call the shots. So good luck hoping for EA to give players anything for free. They'd rather ruin the reputation of a studio and kill it, then help them regain some ground. They do not need Bioware, but Bioware needs EA. Lose/lose situation imo.
This. A dev studio that knows they have a good product in the making can show it off with some confidence which in turn gives me a good feeling about their game. If the game is a mess, there are just two lose-lose options: show it anyway like MEA and make people worry about the quality of the final product, or try to be vague and distract people with completely irrelevant crap to hide the fact that there isn't much to show (remember Anthem's pre-release grabbit nonsense?). On the bright side, we've probably learned all the warning signs to look out for by now.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 16, 2019 11:36:32 GMT
Okay, great, except I don't want BioWare to be like CDPR, and I don't want their games to be like Witcher 3. I already have Witcher 3. We're not talking about Bioware making a carbon copy of Witcher 3. We are talking about why Bioware is a joke to the greater gaming community today, compared to how they weren't 10 years ago. This exact time, 10 years ago, we were hyped for Dragon Age: Origins, the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, a game that had Bioware's community frothing at the mouth with anticipation and a couple of months after that, we'd be getting Mass Effect 2, the game that, in accumulation to Bioware's last couple releases, would have the gaming community singing their name to the high heavens. Then we had a series of mediocre releases, bad PR and terrible community management. In the wake of all that, CDPR capitalized on the void left by Bioware and catapulted themselves in the forefront, with good PR, consumer friendly practices and well received releases. They've also done commendably well for a RPG developer commercially. If, say, Infinity Ward (unlikely) had a similar rep for their games, we might have been talking about them instead, but that doesn't mean we want Bioware to be making FPS.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2019 13:48:03 GMT
Either way, I think Bioware should do this. I mean, they used to be very involved in the community and had great goodwill. While it may seem forced, I think Bioware's marketing/PR areas should focus on getting those brownie points. Thing is, how far can they go with EA? Bioware should make it known that SP is what their focus is and multiplayer is only secondary. They should release free DLC for DA4 in terms of weapons packs, skins and little side missions. For the physical game, they should include a little note from the team thanking all the fans for buying the product and how it is the fans that drives Bioware to make great games. Yes, all cringy things but its a start. Assuming this will be the case... If it's not, I want them to come out and state clearly what excatly this game is going to be as early as possible. If it's always online with the story being delivered piecemeal because GaaS is so damn great, harhar, then it's off my list instantly.
If they go the same route as with MEA keeping a tight lid on it because it's another mess they'd rather not reveal to keep preorders, I will know too that Bioware is a lost cause. The torch has passed already anyway imo. I only keep somewhat updated on DA4 out of curiosity how bad they'll fuck that one up too.
The problem with winning back goodwill is that they actually need to have something to show in the first place. And as you say, this is EA. They call the shots. So good luck hoping for EA to give players anything for free. They'd rather ruin the reputation of a studio and kill it, then help them regain some ground. They do not need Bioware, but Bioware needs EA. Lose/lose situation imo.
This kinda cuts both ways; to bolster your point. I do agree with you that BioWare should come out of the gate as soon as possible and state whether the game is going to be always-online or not; and if traditional DLC will still be a thing. I imagine they might have traditional paid-for DLC, but it may end up being piece-mealed over time in an episodic nature. With that said, I also believe they shouldn't actually show us the game until maybe 6-7 months prior to its release. After what happened with Anthem, the overpromising, and false-advertisement, I think people are going to be far more skeptical of the finished product that DA4 becomes. They closer they start showing gameplay as DA4 nears release, the better, as it would indicate that much of what we're seeing is set in stone. Ultimately, good will in the game industry is not just a matter of having good communication, but backing it with a good quality product (video game).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 16, 2019 14:11:30 GMT
Assuming this will be the case... If it's not, I want them to come out and state clearly what excatly this game is going to be as early as possible. If it's always online with the story being delivered piecemeal because GaaS is so damn great, harhar, then it's off my list instantly.
If they go the same route as with MEA keeping a tight lid on it because it's another mess they'd rather not reveal to keep preorders, I will know too that Bioware is a lost cause. The torch has passed already anyway imo. I only keep somewhat updated on DA4 out of curiosity how bad they'll fuck that one up too.
The problem with winning back goodwill is that they actually need to have something to show in the first place. And as you say, this is EA. They call the shots. So good luck hoping for EA to give players anything for free. They'd rather ruin the reputation of a studio and kill it, then help them regain some ground. They do not need Bioware, but Bioware needs EA. Lose/lose situation imo.
This kinda cuts both ways; to bolster your point. I do agree with you that BioWare should come out of the gate as soon as possible and state whether the game is going to be always-online or not; and if traditional DLC will still be a thing. I imagine they might have traditional paid-for DLC, but it may end up being piece-mealed over time in an episodic nature. With that said, I also believe they shouldn't actually show us the game until maybe 6-7 months prior to its release. After what happened with Anthem, the overpromising, and false-advertisement, I think people are going to be far more skeptical of the finished product that DA4 becomes. They closer they start showing gameplay as DA4 nears release, the better, as it would indicate that much of what we're seeing is set in stone. Ultimately, good will in the game industry is not just a matter of having good communication, but backing it with a good quality product (video game). Since it will be a GaaS, according to Schreier, who is the more reliable source for anything Bioware this far, I expect it will have trickle down content, which Bioware may (probably won't) stick to their roadmap, or are taking advantage of the 4 year extension to already produce the trickle down content (wishful thinking) while the game is already feature complete (doubtful). The point is, when the game releases, that it won't be anemic in content like Anthem and it will be of some significant quality, unlike some recent Bioware releases. Out of DA4, I expect neither.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2019 15:07:42 GMT
Since it will be a GaaS, according to Schreier, who is the more reliable source for anything Bioware this far, I expect it will have trickle down content, which Bioware may (probably won't) stick to their roadmap, or are taking advantage of the 4 year extension to already produce the trickle down content (wishful thinking) while the game is already feature complete (doubtful). The point is, when the game releases, that it won't be anemic in content like Anthem and it will be of some significant quality, unlike some recent Bioware releases. Out of DA4, I expect neither. See this is the thing for me, I've always felt that GaaS and Live-Service meant two different things. For example, AC:Odyssey received frequent live-service updates, but would I call that game GaaS? Definitely not.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 16, 2019 16:45:09 GMT
These are not well-defined terms.
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N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Oct 16, 2019 17:15:11 GMT
Since it will be a GaaS, according to Schreier, who is the more reliable source for anything Bioware this far, I expect it will have trickle down content, which Bioware may (probably won't) stick to their roadmap, or are taking advantage of the 4 year extension to already produce the trickle down content (wishful thinking) while the game is already feature complete (doubtful). The point is, when the game releases, that it won't be anemic in content like Anthem and it will be of some significant quality, unlike some recent Bioware releases. Out of DA4, I expect neither. See this is the thing for me, I've always felt that GaaS and Live-Service meant two different things. For example, AC:Odyssey received frequent live-service updates, but would I call that game GaaS? Definitely not. I don't think AC: Odyssey would be either one.
To me either GAAS or live service is just a game you're trying to keep people playing long term in an effort to monetize it.
The difference to me is the type of game.
MMOs that charge fees, Origin Premier, or anything you're paying recurring revenue for are GAAS, as the game(s) is the service you're subscribing to. Same as you do for software. I work at a software company and our product is classified as SAAS. Clients pay us a set recurring fee to use it.
Games where you either buy it initially, or are free to play and the goal is to sell you microtransactions to create the revenue are to me the live service games. This is the model that most app games use. But for regular PC/console games there are plenty of examples from all genres. The Yugioh card game, Final Fantasy Dissidia NT, looter shooters to name a few.
Any game that isn't meant to produce long term recurring revenue wouldn't fall under either category. Which is why I don't think the next DA game will be either. It may have multiplayer or microtransactions, but it would have to be like Anthem to fall under either live service or GAAS.
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Post by revelationeffect on Oct 16, 2019 23:24:03 GMT
See this is the thing for me, I've always felt that GaaS and Live-Service meant two different things. For example, AC:Odyssey received frequent live-service updates, but would I call that game GaaS? Definitely not. I don't think AC: Odyssey would be either one.
To me either GAAS or live service is just a game you're trying to keep people playing long term in an effort to monetize it.
The difference to me is the type of game.
MMOs that charge fees, Origin Premier, or anything you're paying recurring revenue for are GAAS, as the game(s) is the service you're subscribing to. Same as you do for software. I work at a software company and our product is classified as SAAS. Clients pay us a set recurring fee to use it.
Games where you either buy it initially, or are free to play and the goal is to sell you microtransactions to create the revenue are to me the live service games. This is the model that most app games use. But for regular PC/console games there are plenty of examples from all genres. The Yugioh card game, Final Fantasy Dissidia NT, looter shooters to name a few.
Any game that isn't meant to produce long term recurring revenue wouldn't fall under either category. Which is why I don't think the next DA game will be either. It may have multiplayer or microtransactions, but it would have to be like Anthem to fall under either live service or GAAS.
Honestly GaaS is just a buzzword, if you ask five different people they’ll probably have three different opinions on what it concretely means. It seems overwhelmingly likely that they’ll be taking cues from AC odyssey, which had fairly unintrusive live service components. They’ve repeatedly said the game isn’t going to be Anthem with Dragons like I’ve seen people repeatedly say. DA4 has by far the best chances out of any game BioWare has produced since DAI due to being a direct sequel with some sense of direction, helmed by writers who have worked with the franchise previously. I think the odds of a clusterfuck like Anthem or MEA is pretty unlikely since in both cases the main issue there was them farting around aimlessly for like three years.
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N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 10:17:06 GMT
I don't think AC: Odyssey would be either one.
To me either GAAS or live service is just a game you're trying to keep people playing long term in an effort to monetize it.
The difference to me is the type of game.
MMOs that charge fees, Origin Premier, or anything you're paying recurring revenue for are GAAS, as the game(s) is the service you're subscribing to. Same as you do for software. I work at a software company and our product is classified as SAAS. Clients pay us a set recurring fee to use it.
Games where you either buy it initially, or are free to play and the goal is to sell you microtransactions to create the revenue are to me the live service games. This is the model that most app games use. But for regular PC/console games there are plenty of examples from all genres. The Yugioh card game, Final Fantasy Dissidia NT, looter shooters to name a few.
Any game that isn't meant to produce long term recurring revenue wouldn't fall under either category. Which is why I don't think the next DA game will be either. It may have multiplayer or microtransactions, but it would have to be like Anthem to fall under either live service or GAAS.
Honestly GaaS is just a buzzword, if you ask five different people they’ll probably have three different opinions on what it concretely means. It seems overwhelmingly likely that they’ll be taking cues from AC odyssey, which had fairly unintrusive live service components. They’ve repeatedly said the game isn’t going to be Anthem with Dragons like I’ve seen people repeatedly say. DA4 has by far the best chances out of any game BioWare has produced since DAI due to being a direct sequel with some sense of direction, helmed by writers who have worked with the franchise previously. I think the odds of a clusterfuck like Anthem or MEA is pretty unlikely since in both cases the main issue there was them farting around aimlessly for like three years. It's not a buzzword it's a business model. They just took the concept of software as a service (SaaS) and applied it to video games. Where Microsoft for example used to only sell you a disk with a license code that you owned forever, they started offering Office 365. Pay a small subscription, use it on any computer, but now it's recurring revenue as opposed to one time, and more money over the long run. No matter how the five people want to describe it, it all boils down in the end to long term recurring revenue as opposed to one time. Now instead of buying a game, getting a key, finishing it and moving on to the next one. They either charge you subscription to play it, or they give it you for free, and create a game with really no ending that you'll play continually for years while buying things from the store to supplement what they gave you in the base game, producing long term revenue instead of just getting it one time up front. So any SP game with a true ending wouldn't really fall into this category because they're not designed to keep people playing it continually for years. That's why I said DA4 would need to be like Anthem. Minimal initial content, and the story is episodic over a long period of time. It's highly doubtful that DA4 will be like this. I figure it will be like ME2. Depending on the reception, some story content DLCs, with some small microtransactions thrown in. All those gun packs, armor skins, and other little stuff Bioware was selling were microtransactions to me. Bioware isn't new to this.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2019 11:36:32 GMT
DA4 got rebooted to incorporate GaaS. That's all I needed to know to draw my own conclusions about its future quality. I abandoned all hope for the game when I read that. I want nothing to do with EA's insulting GaaS model. Nothing good will ever come out of it for the consumer. Not with EA.
I hope whatever talent Bioware has managed to retain under EA will soon quit too and start making good games again for other studios. Maybe AA or indie, like Gaider. Bioware is a sinking ship halfway submerged already. It started sinking after Trespasser. The only direction is down.
Sorry to be so negative but I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt after 2 disastrous releases where the writing was on the wall too. I'm not even mad at Bioware. EA's new shiny business model has fucked them over.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 17, 2019 12:55:10 GMT
DA4 got rebooted to incorporate GaaS. That's all I needed to know to draw my own conclusions about its future quality. I abandoned all hope for the game when I read that. I want nothing to do with EA's insulting GaaS model. Nothing good will ever come out of it for the consumer. Not with EA. I hope whatever talent Bioware has managed to retain under EA will soon quit too and start making good games again for other studios. Maybe AA or indie, like Gaider. Bioware is a sinking ship halfway submerged already. It started sinking after Trespasser. The only direction is down. Sorry to be so negative but I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt after 2 disastrous releases where the writing was on the wall too. I'm not even mad at Bioware. EA's new shiny business model has fucked them over.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Oct 17, 2019 13:28:41 GMT
DA4 got rebooted to incorporate GaaS. That's all I needed to know to draw my own conclusions about its future quality. I abandoned all hope for the game when I read that. I want nothing to do with EA's insulting GaaS model. Nothing good will ever come out of it for the consumer. Not with EA. I hope whatever talent Bioware has managed to retain under EA will soon quit too and start making good games again for other studios. Maybe AA or indie, like Gaider. Bioware is a sinking ship halfway submerged already. It started sinking after Trespasser. The only direction is down. Sorry to be so negative but I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt after 2 disastrous releases where the writing was on the wall too. I'm not even mad at Bioware. EA's new shiny business model has fucked them over. I thought it was live service, not GaaS; as Schreier put it.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2019 13:40:10 GMT
I thought it was live service, not GaaS; as Schreier put it. Now that you mention it, I thought it was the same but maybe it's not?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 13:48:11 GMT
I thought it was live service, not GaaS; as Schreier put it. Now that you mention it, I thought it was the same but maybe it's not? It is the same.
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majesticjazz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 17, 2019 14:59:02 GMT
DA4 got rebooted to incorporate GaaS. That's all I needed to know to draw my own conclusions about its future quality. I abandoned all hope for the game when I read that. I want nothing to do with EA's insulting GaaS model. Nothing good will ever come out of it for the consumer. Not with EA. I hope whatever talent Bioware has managed to retain under EA will soon quit too and start making good games again for other studios. Maybe AA or indie, like Gaider. Bioware is a sinking ship halfway submerged already. It started sinking after Trespasser. The only direction is down. Sorry to be so negative but I'm done giving them the benefit of the doubt after 2 disastrous releases where the writing was on the wall too. I'm not even mad at Bioware. EA's new shiny business model has fucked them over. In EA's defense, wasnt it Bioware that choose to go the multilayer/GaaS route with Anthem?
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4,007
Blast Processor
"Why are you telling me this? I can read and draw my own conclusions." - Roach
1,441
August 2016
slotts
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Post by Blast Processor on Oct 17, 2019 15:07:04 GMT
"My animation bugs are better than your bugs!" My favourite TW3 animation bug is the slow-mo Cossack dancers walking in circles throughout Blood and Wine. Out of the bugs I noticed, I liked this one the best. I want to ride my bicycle...
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3,403
biggydx
Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
2,206
Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by biggydx on Oct 17, 2019 15:40:43 GMT
Now that you mention it, I thought it was the same but maybe it's not? It is the same. Let me ask this then. Would you consider Mass Effect 3 Live Service or GaaS? Because it had an online-only, multiplayer component that continuously received new updates and content (for free) for a year. You had to pay for the online-pass in order to access multiplayer though; which was a caveat.
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9459
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 15:49:58 GMT
Would you consider Mass Effect 3 Live Service or GaaS? It's the same.
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8,407
Kappa Neko
...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
3,383
Oct 18, 2016 21:17:18 GMT
October 2016
kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2019 16:05:56 GMT
In EA's defense, wasnt it Bioware that choose to go the multilayer/GaaS route with Anthem? If desperately trying to impress daddy, so he keeps paying their rent, counts as voluntary decision, then yes. ;P
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