Numerical Tests Thread - Peddro's Talon Mercenary Skill Mechanics

Eric Fagnan
Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

I thought I would write a quick post with some tips on the Talon Engineer. I think the team underestimated how much of a niche character this guy is, and it isn’t always obvious how to spec him to get a lot of damage out of his omni-bow. Below is a guide for a high-damage omni-bow build.

Overview

The Omni-Bow is considered a melee ability, so it is affected by all melee damage bonuses. If you activate Armor Piercing or Concussive Arrows, you are adding additional power damage to your arrows in addition to the regular melee damage. For a build that maximizes bow damage, the melee portion of your bow damage always exceeds the power portion of your bow damage, so you should maximize melee damage bonuses and then fill with power damage bonuses.

1) Maximize melee damage bonuses

To maximize bow damage, you need to stack as many melee damage bonuses as you can because all of them increase your bow damage.

- Take ranks 4a, 5a, and 6a in your Omni-Bow Mastery passive power.
- Use an Omni-Blade or any other melee mods on your weapon. Due to the way the math works on these mods (they add a multiplicative damage bonus after all other bonuses), they have a massive impact on your melee damage
- Use the Hydraulic Joints or other melee damage bonus gear if you can afford not taking grenade gear
- Use a Strength Enhancer consumable

2) After melee damage, stack power damage

- Take ranks 4b and 5a in your Elite Mercenary passive power to maximize power damage bonuses, which will affect the damage done from additional power damage of Armor Piercing and Concussive Arrows.
- Take a Power Amplifier consumable since there is no melee damage bonus in this category

3) Bow Powers

- The bow damage by itself isn’t huge, but when you activate Armor Piercing Arrows you get 2 shots of this enhanced bow damage, which drastically increases damage done to armor with good damage to all other resistances and health as well.
- Keep activating bow powers as you consume charges to ensure you always have power charges when you fire your bow. The number of charges is displayed as arrows attached to your character’s right shoulder.
- To maximize bow damage, use Armor Piercing Arrows and take all damage evolutions
- Take rank 6a, which adds an extra arrow to your shots. This will increase melee damage as well since you are firing an extra arrow that will have a melee portion and power portion to its damage.

4) Use heavy melee to get all arrows to hit the same target

The bow has 2 firing modes. If you tap the melee button, your arrows fly off in a cone but usually only 1 arrow will hit each target. If you hold the melee button, your arrows will focus in on the center. Once they are at the center you can release the bow to get all the arrows to shoot straight ahead.

5) Locking onto targets

The bow has a lock-on mechanic that uses the same targeting as powers to determine who it will hit. To hit targets, ensure that you have them highlighted (just like you would if you fired a power like Incinerate). Once you have a target highlighted and hold the melee button, your camera will lock on to that target and your arrows should seek to him when you release the bow. Enemies can dodge your arrows just like any other power.

Conclusion

The team is keeping a close eye on the Talon Engineer to make sure he is a viable kit at all difficulty levels. We do have some ideas for changes to make him easier to use, but I encourage you to play around with him and use this guide or come up with a better one
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peddroelm
Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:13 AM
Edited by peddroelmz, 13 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

read Eric's tips before to understand the basic mechanics (see above)

Before everything - his bow powers -are projectile based - subject to lag ... Play him on host before passing final judgement ... Also because its a power - much less "right hand advantage" exploit potential ... (exacerbates squishiness)

Light melee fires arrows in a cone ..This is bad because you usually want all arrows to hit the same target hence ...
Need to use heavy melee to tighten the firing cone - and make all arrows hit the same target ...

Another thing to note after firing the charged bow shot your WEAPON (shotgun) will be AUTO aimed towards the enemy (press the fire button).. ...Synergy with slow firing accurate shotguns like claymore, wraith ... Works with charge up guns also (gps, graal, venom - can hold charge while firing//activating bow powers)

Bow attacks can have 2 components melee + enchantment (2 separate hits per arrow fired)...
Weapon melee add-on bonuses are multiplicative towards both components (melee and enchantment) ... Which means the best weapons for our bow specialist are shotguns .. (*50 melee damage add-on ) ...

Melee_component_damage_per_arrow = 100 * (1 + sum_ominbow_mastery_bonuses + sum_melee bonuses ) * melee_add_on_bonus

Maxed this should look like 100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 = 450 .. Given you can fire at most 5 arrows at once this could mean 450 * 5 = 2250 damage from the melee component alone when firing enchanted arrows .. (can only get 5 arrow attacks when using enchanted attacks) ... Without enchantment you get 3 arrows ( max 1350 can finish off injured foes) ...


Enchanted_component_damage_per_arrow = Base * (1+ sum_enchantment_skill_damage + sum_power_bonuses) * melee_add_on_bonus * DefenceMultiplier for impact... They can also have DOT components that are % of impact damage applied over 5 seconds (also subject to defence multipliers) ...

Base is 25 for concussive arrows ... 100 for AP arrows ... AP arrows have * 1.5 DefenceMultiplier vs armor ... Can get an extra *1.35 vs armor from skill..

Concussive arrow dot component Shock 5a has *1.5 DefenceMultiplier vs shields (and probably barriers) ..This DOT component can be boosted by sabotage tech vulnerability ... Conccusive arrow debuff is applied per arrow ..


Maximal (approximate -its late might edit later) damage per AP arrow vs armor 100 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5 = 757.85625
..

So it is possible for the elemental component to do more damage than the melee one ... Total damage vs armor(5 AP arrows) 5 * (450 + 757.85625) = 6039.28125 probably lower (must chose between power and melee bonuses ) ...

Phantom will probably casually block arrows with her power immunity (ironically I have not actually played the class (many of the new classes) yet) ...


Damage examples

Normal 3 arrows
-----------------

+5529 ms |damage 318.000000 // 100 * (1 + 1 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 318
+30 ms |damage 318.000000
+33 ms |damage 318.000000


Conccusive with shock dot vs armor (5 arrows)
----------------------------------------------

+14520 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000 // 25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 = 60
+26 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+37 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+1 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+37 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000

+257 ms |damage 6.000000 // 25 * (1+0.1+0.2+0.3) * 1.5 /10
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+56 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+35 ms |damage 6.000000

+328 ms |damage 6.000000
+29 ms |damage 6.000000
+52 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+38 ms |damage 6.000000

+340 ms |damage 6.000000
+29 ms |damage 6.000000
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+49 ms |damage 6.000000

+334 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000
+50 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+32 ms |damage 6.000000

+337 ms |damage 6.000000
+28 ms |damage 6.000000
+51 ms |damage 6.000000
+0 ms |damage 6.000000
+43 ms |damage 6.000000

+341 ms |damage 6.000000
+35 ms |damage 6.000000
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000

+346 ms |damage 6.000000
+31 ms |damage 6.000000
+33 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+36 ms |damage 6.000000

+329 ms |damage 6.000000
+27 ms |damage 6.000000
+57 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000

+346 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000
+54 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+38 ms |damage 6.000000

+327 ms |damage 6.000000
+25 ms |damage 6.000000
+50 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+18 ms |damage 6.000000

AP arrows vs armor (5)
-------------------

+9151 ms |damage 318.000000 // 100 * (1 + 1 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 318
+1 ms |damage 486.000000
+26 ms |damage 318.000000
+0 ms |damage 486.000000
+31 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 486.000000
+36 ms |damage 318.000000
+2 ms |damage 486.000000
+1 ms |damage 318.000000
+0 ms |damage 486.000000 // 100 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5


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Edit concussive arrow chill (debuff is applied per arrow) example

20 30 100% damage 5 sec

chill 5 % debuff stacks 3 times

chill arrowcount

25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.3 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.25 = 59.375

+463962 ms |Health Damage 265.000000
+1 ms |Health Damage 59.375000
+2 ms |Health Damage 278.250000 // 265 * 1.05 = 278.25
+1 ms |Health Damage 62.343750 // 25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.3 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.25 * 1.05 = 62.34375
+93 ms |Health Damage 291.500000
+0 ms |Health Damage 65.312500
+94 ms |Health Damage 304.750000
+1 ms |Health Damage 68.281250
+0 ms |Health Damage 304.750000
+1 ms |Health Damage 68.281250

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cain trip mine vs armor with armor evo

+243977 ms |damage 4320.000000
+59035 ms |damage 4320.000000
1200 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 4320

Switched to power pistol (+30% PD)
1200 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 5130
+74129 ms |damage 5130.000000

Working as expected .. A true nuke vs armor with the extra *1.5 vs armor evolution and huge base damage (had 5 points in it in this test and 10% from passive)... Damage potential is massive ..

1200 * (1 + 0.375 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 8086.5 (although if you want to use arrows will need to drop the 30% PD from pistol/smg)

Has great spawn clearing potential ...Especially if paired with an area debuff like recon mine ...

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Updated maximal damage calculation for talon Bow after last balance changes (12.03.2013)

Un-enchanted pure melee arrows (5 per attack)
100 * (1 + (0.15 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.5 + 0.25) + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 = 450 // 1 arrow
100 * (1 + (0.15 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.5 + 0.25) + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 * 5 = 2250 // can 1 shot unshielded gold mooks like geth trooper, cannibal, cerberus trooper , husk

Max Damage per arrow is same as before but you get 5 arrows instead of 3 per attack ..

----------------------------
AP arrows damage per arrow

AP arrow damage vs armor
75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5 = 568.3922 //Even nerfed AP arrow component can out-damage melee component vs armored targets

AP arrow damage vs non-armor
75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 280.6875 // when not hitting armor however melee component superior


---------------------------------

Maximal damage for AP arrows attack (6 melee arrows + 6 AP arrows )

5b (armor damage)

vs non-armor

6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5)) = 4303.125

vs armor

6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5)*1.5*1.35 * 1.5)) = 5946.3282 // ~ same value as before AP arrow nerf

and 5a (shred)
5a is also multiplicative (but has a DOT component)

and will work vs all targets ..

vs non armored
6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5 * 1.5)) = 5104.6875

vs armored
6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 6307.03125