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Post by dukeironhand on Nov 25, 2019 12:38:43 GMT
Didn’t see a thread here so I thought I would throw one out. What is everyone’s thought on having a more expanded romance thing in future ME?
I know it is trendy in some circles to trash the romance aspect of the game but I find it a enjoyable diversion from saving the galaxy. I would like to see the whole courtship thing (before, during, and after) to be more “detailed and involved.” Not at the expense of “real gameplay” (I don’t need a dating & marriage sim at my age) but just more to flesh it out.
Way back on ME1’s release almost all seemed to enjoy the little interlude and change of pace. And of course, since it became mainstream and apparently liked by many, it then became cool to trash it. Now that years have passed (haven’t played ME:A yet) what are people’s thoughts on a expanded romance? Within the limits of a game of course.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 14:20:56 GMT
Most ME romances and even the companionships suffer from a lack of dialogue as for much of the game, the player winds up in repeating conversations if they religiously try to talk with the NPC between each mission. Ashley and Kaidan would repeat their main mission status lines and refuse personal conversation, Garrus would continually thank Shepard, Shepard would say hi and then have nothing new to start a conversation so we'd get "See you later." and then who could forget the stimilating "Wrex" and "Shepard" convesation with Wrex over an dover again. In ME2, it changed to where the ME2 squad makes would repeatedly nag about they loyalty mission until Shepard could get those missions done. In ME3 the NPC's would comment on most missions, but it was autodialogue delivered as the NPC even failed to turn around to face Shepard.
ME:A made improvements to some of it, but because the game was so long, the NPC's do run out of different things to say to Ryder when on the ship. This did affect some of the romances more than others. Particularly with PeeBee's romance, there were instances of endearing banter in the nomad and for other companions to acknowledge the "interested" phase of the romance... which was, I thought, a nice touch. However, it is an aspect that probably is one source for the criticisms of the game being too reliant on humor. Aslo, the romances in ME:A are unevenly treated. That is, some have more banter dialogue than others and that makes some romances feel someone short-changed and less involved than others... which is a shame. This is particularly noticeable when romancing a crew mate rather than a squad mate since there is little opportunity to interact with the romance partner when not on the ship itself.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 25, 2019 14:33:46 GMT
The thing about romances is they are resource intensive. More lines of banter I think can be done, but if you are looking for more things that can be animated I think would be a mistake for it does make other areas of the game be sacrificed. With BioWare games there is a lot of animations that need to be done from the dialogue to the movements of characters and romances require a lot of unique animations and highly detailed ones to make sure if characters are touching or in close proximity they look right.
Right now everyone wants their romance to be in a BioWare game and I think overall the quality has suffered for its become quantity over quality and if there is some unbalance to the number people are upset.
With that being said would I like a better system in place? Yes, but I just don't see how its possible unless something else gives. BioWare probably has a very good idea how many people really participate in the romance direction and I think that will dictate how they move forward, but with the amount of complaining I am seeing I could see BioWare slowing down on the romance front before expanding it in the future.
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Post by dukeironhand on Nov 25, 2019 17:46:20 GMT
Huh. Thought the romance stuff was quite the hit originally till the “Why can’t my male/female Shep romance...” stuff started from certain circles. Probably made BW regret the whole thing!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 21:27:18 GMT
The thing about romances is they are resource intensive. More lines of banter I think can be done, but if you are looking for more things that can be animated I think would be a mistake for it does make other areas of the game be sacrificed. With BioWare games there is a lot of animations that need to be done from the dialogue to the movements of characters and romances require a lot of unique animations and highly detailed ones to make sure if characters are touching or in close proximity they look right. Right now everyone wants their romance to be in a BioWare game and I think overall the quality has suffered for its become quantity over quality and if there is some unbalance to the number people are upset. With that being said would I like a better system in place? Yes, but I just don't see how its possible unless something else gives. BioWare probably has a very good idea how many people really participate in the romance direction and I think that will dictate how they move forward, but with the amount of complaining I am seeing I could see BioWare slowing down on the romance front before expanding it in the future. What I'd like to see give is the number of side quests. ME:A tried to follow TW3 and FO4 (as many games seem to be doing) by providing over 200 open-world side quests. I'd rather have a smaller, more focused game with a tighter story plot and be able to role play it in different ways. That means more dialogue options for how the PC relates to the NPC's in the game, including different romance options based on personality types. ME2 moved in that direction. ME:A seemed like it wanted to do much the same, but with the open world and so many side quests, they weren't able to give the various romantic partners enough dialogue lines to really pull it off well for all of them. Still, PeeBee's romance is, IMO, the most organice romance so far that bioware has delivered. Vetra's romance is good as well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 21:44:10 GMT
Huh. Thought the romance stuff was quite the hit originally till the “Why can’t my male/female Shep romance...” stuff started from certain circles. Probably made BW regret the whole thing! For gender stuff, I'm perfectly fine with the FO4 approach, make any romance-able NPC amendable to being romanced by either gender of player character.... just change the odd line of romance dialogue to recognize when that NPC is being flirted with by a person of the same gender or the opposite gender as themselves. Romances criteria should be based on the personality and behavior of the PC, such that if the NPC disapproves of what the player is doing, they can turn down a flirt or even break off a romance.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 25, 2019 23:43:42 GMT
The thing about romances is they are resource intensive. More lines of banter I think can be done, but if you are looking for more things that can be animated I think would be a mistake for it does make other areas of the game be sacrificed. With BioWare games there is a lot of animations that need to be done from the dialogue to the movements of characters and romances require a lot of unique animations and highly detailed ones to make sure if characters are touching or in close proximity they look right. Right now everyone wants their romance to be in a BioWare game and I think overall the quality has suffered for its become quantity over quality and if there is some unbalance to the number people are upset. With that being said would I like a better system in place? Yes, but I just don't see how its possible unless something else gives. BioWare probably has a very good idea how many people really participate in the romance direction and I think that will dictate how they move forward, but with the amount of complaining I am seeing I could see BioWare slowing down on the romance front before expanding it in the future. What I'd like to see give is the number of side quests. ME:A tried to follow TW3 and FO4 (as many games seem to be doing) by providing over 200 open-world side quests. I'd rather have a smaller, more focused game with a tighter story plot and be able to role play it in different ways. That means more dialogue options for how the PC relates to the NPC's in the game, including different romance options based on personality types. ME2 moved in that direction. ME:A seemed like it wanted to do much the same, but with the open world and so many side quests, they weren't able to give the various romantic partners enough dialogue lines to really pull it off well for all of them. Still, PeeBee's romance is, IMO, the most organice romance so far that bioware has delivered. Vetra's romance is good as well. I think it was also not just dialogue, but the animations behind it for Andromeda had a very large number of romance options so they had to spend not only the time for animation all the different romances and what is needed for the game itself. That is where I think the trade off will need to be made for they only have so many animators and having really unique animations for the different romance sequences such as Peebee in the escape pod with the gravity off and making sure the tedious work on preventing problems like clipping is where the time is really consumed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 1:27:09 GMT
What I'd like to see give is the number of side quests. ME:A tried to follow TW3 and FO4 (as many games seem to be doing) by providing over 200 open-world side quests. I'd rather have a smaller, more focused game with a tighter story plot and be able to role play it in different ways. That means more dialogue options for how the PC relates to the NPC's in the game, including different romance options based on personality types. ME2 moved in that direction. ME:A seemed like it wanted to do much the same, but with the open world and so many side quests, they weren't able to give the various romantic partners enough dialogue lines to really pull it off well for all of them. Still, PeeBee's romance is, IMO, the most organice romance so far that bioware has delivered. Vetra's romance is good as well. I think it was also not just dialogue, but the animations behind it for Andromeda had a very large number of romance options so they had to spend not only the time for animation all the different romances and what is needed for the game itself. That is where I think the trade off will need to be made for they only have so many animators and having really unique animations for the different romance sequences such as Peebee in the escape pod with the gravity off and making sure the tedious work on preventing problems like clipping is where the time is really consumed. I think they could trade off some of the explicitness of the endgame love scenes in favor of giving a couple that has entered into a relationship a more romantic greeting to their regular conversation... like "Hi Honey'"... particular since the game was rather open-world and the relationship could be locked in long before the endgame romance scene... and there also could a a lot of side quests done after the end game. A simple hug or kiss animation that is repeated along with it would be nice, but not necessarily essential. It's more about acknowledging that the two are in a relationship somehow for all the time remaining in the game after the relationship is established.
I think that Bioware tried to take a "middle ground" on this... the conversation styles, as a result, became more casual than people liked if they weren't in a relationship with that squad mate or didn't even particularly like that squad mate... and it gave rise to some of the criticisms about the overall tone of the game.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 29, 2019 5:25:25 GMT
I want romances in my rpg but it has to be done right. It's hard to get it perfect and for the most part I like what Bioware gave us. MEAs was a good step in the right direction. I agree though that maybe a few less choices though. A M/M and F/F choice and maybe two hetero options.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 29, 2019 6:03:27 GMT
I want romances in my rpg but it has to be done right. It's hard to get it perfect and for the most part I like what Bioware gave us. MEAs was a good step in the right direction. I agree though that maybe a few less choices though. A M/M and F/F choice and maybe two hetero options. As much as their was online backlash with dubbing Dragon Age 2 romance options "playersexual" I think that is something I could live with if they were to expand the romances with those characters more. I know David Gaider had a strong dislike for that term because it was only because of meta knowledge for in the context of the character it was a hetro and same-sex option. To me it minimizes the amount of overlap between having so many characters for I think with Andromeda it was nine or ten different characters with different choices for the characters. So instead of writing and animating the same steps of that many romances they could easily make a romance multiple times longer and also improve other areas of the game.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 29, 2019 17:51:37 GMT
I want romances in my rpg but it has to be done right. It's hard to get it perfect and for the most part I like what Bioware gave us. MEAs was a good step in the right direction. I agree though that maybe a few less choices though. A M/M and F/F choice and maybe two hetero options. As much as their was online backlash with dubbing Dragon Age 2 romance options "playersexual" I think that is something I could live with if they were to expand the romances with those characters more. I know David Gaider had a strong dislike for that term because it was only because of meta knowledge for in the context of the character it was a hetro and same-sex option. To me it minimizes the amount of overlap between having so many characters for I think with Andromeda it was nine or ten different characters with different choices for the characters. So instead of writing and animating the same steps of that many romances they could easily make a romance multiple times longer and also improve other areas of the game. I agree. That shouldn't be hard to do.
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Post by LogicGunn on Dec 15, 2019 12:52:27 GMT
I'd really like to have more agency in romances. Don't get me wrong, I love how they are implemented in Bioware games as opposed to, say, Bethesda games. But I'd like to have more choice in how it comes about. How my PC flirts, what they choose to do with their LI etc.
Also, I think a non-intensive way to expand upon romances is to have more banter referring to it. Like, the entirety of Bull/Dorian's relationship was party banter and a little conversation. That would translate well to a PC romance too. There was some in DAI but ME's relationships weren't often referred to by anyone.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 15, 2019 13:43:27 GMT
I'd really like to have more agency in romances. Don't get me wrong, I love how they are implemented in Bioware games as opposed to, say, Bethesda games. But I'd like to have more choice in how it comes about. How my PC flirts, what they choose to do with their LI etc. Also, I think a non-intensive way to expand upon romances is to have more banter referring to it. Like, the entirety of Bull/Dorian's relationship was party banter and a little conversation. That would translate well to a PC romance too. There was some in DAI but ME's relationships weren't often referred to by anyone. My guess for the lack of other acknowledgement by other characters in the game is just the simple problem of time and where to use animations and dialogue. I know the comment from Mordin in Mass Effect 2 if you were romancing someone was a nice touch and also I liked in ME2 after you reached the end of the romance path you could call your partner to your cabin just to hangout. I just wonder if things like that are harder to implement just because there are so many different romances now so it would be a lot of development time with very little payoff. I am pretty sure there were ten different characters you could romance in Andromeda which meant that you would need to record and animate that response multiple times.
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Post by LogicGunn on Dec 15, 2019 14:09:25 GMT
I'd really like to have more agency in romances. Don't get me wrong, I love how they are implemented in Bioware games as opposed to, say, Bethesda games. But I'd like to have more choice in how it comes about. How my PC flirts, what they choose to do with their LI etc. Also, I think a non-intensive way to expand upon romances is to have more banter referring to it. Like, the entirety of Bull/Dorian's relationship was party banter and a little conversation. That would translate well to a PC romance too. There was some in DAI but ME's relationships weren't often referred to by anyone. My guess for the lack of other acknowledgement by other characters in the game is just the simple problem of time and where to use animations and dialogue. I know the comment from Mordin in Mass Effect 2 if you were romancing someone was a nice touch and also I liked in ME2 after you reached the end of the romance path you could call your partner to your cabin just to hangout. I just wonder if things like that are harder to implement just because there are so many different romances now so it would be a lot of development time with very little payoff. I am pretty sure there were ten different characters you could romance in Andromeda which meant that you would need to record and animate that response multiple times. I disagree that it's very little payoff. If something is important to you then it's a pretty big payoff to have these details in. They are what makes a game go from great to exceptional. Some people get excited over other things, more weapons or more abilities or more renegade dialogue options. When a dev team spends a lot of time on something the payoff is bigger than the effort.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 15, 2019 16:12:42 GMT
My guess for the lack of other acknowledgement by other characters in the game is just the simple problem of time and where to use animations and dialogue. I know the comment from Mordin in Mass Effect 2 if you were romancing someone was a nice touch and also I liked in ME2 after you reached the end of the romance path you could call your partner to your cabin just to hangout. I just wonder if things like that are harder to implement just because there are so many different romances now so it would be a lot of development time with very little payoff. I am pretty sure there were ten different characters you could romance in Andromeda which meant that you would need to record and animate that response multiple times. I disagree that it's very little payoff. If something is important to you then it's a pretty big payoff to have these details in. They are what makes a game go from great to exceptional. Some people get excited over other things, more weapons or more abilities or more renegade dialogue options. When a dev team spends a lot of time on something the payoff is bigger than the effort. I mean more towards payoff towards the story. I think Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins both had the most payoff towards the story when it came to the romances for with Mass Effect 1 if you were romancing either Kaiden or Ashley it would be recognized during the debriefing sequence after Virmire and with Dragon Age: Origins it would be mentioned during the Dark Ritual conversation. Beyond those two times I don't think the romance had any direct impact outside of being an optional aspect of the game and wouldn't be recognized by the critical path.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 16, 2019 23:34:29 GMT
Problem is in part in thinking of romances as a "minigame" instead of a roleplaying opportunity.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 16, 2019 23:54:36 GMT
I disagree that it's very little payoff. If something is important to you then it's a pretty big payoff to have these details in. They are what makes a game go from great to exceptional. Some people get excited over other things, more weapons or more abilities or more renegade dialogue options. When a dev team spends a lot of time on something the payoff is bigger than the effort. I mean more towards payoff towards the story. I think Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins both had the most payoff towards the story when it came to the romances for with Mass Effect 1 if you were romancing either Kaiden or Ashley it would be recognized during the debriefing sequence after Virmire and with Dragon Age: Origins it would be mentioned during the Dark Ritual conversation. Beyond those two times I don't think the romance had any direct impact outside of being an optional aspect of the game and wouldn't be recognized by the critical path. All the games have moments like that in them. For example in MEA you and your LI embrace and have a moment after the battle in Meridian. Then in all the games there are at least a couple comments about your relationship from others.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 17, 2019 2:51:00 GMT
I mean more towards payoff towards the story. I think Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins both had the most payoff towards the story when it came to the romances for with Mass Effect 1 if you were romancing either Kaiden or Ashley it would be recognized during the debriefing sequence after Virmire and with Dragon Age: Origins it would be mentioned during the Dark Ritual conversation. Beyond those two times I don't think the romance had any direct impact outside of being an optional aspect of the game and wouldn't be recognized by the critical path. All the games have moments like that in them. For example in MEA you and your LI embrace and have a moment after the battle in Meridian. Then in all the games there are at least a couple comments about your relationship from others. Shows what I remember, I remember Shepard blaming himself for the death of a squad member due to being in a relationship and Mordin warning about Miranda planting listening devices.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 17, 2019 17:15:02 GMT
Problem is in part in thinking of romances as a "minigame" instead of a roleplaying opportunity. Yeah, kinda makes it seem weird. Besides, Hatoful boyfriend's got them beat on that front, buoooy.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 17, 2019 21:17:07 GMT
RP issues aside -- I agree that it doesn't make sense for a player to think of this as a minigame unless he's role-playing a PUA -- how much gaminess should a RPG romance track even have? In the sense of having success states, fail states, and various strategies the playet can employ to determine which outcome he gets.
In DA romances usually piggyback on the approval minigame, with one or two special cases like blowing up the Alistair romance at the Landsmeet. (Plus an associated fetch quest in some DAI cases.) ME follows the older BG model, where you just get on the track and stay there unless you deliberately crash it.
I wouldn't mind having to think about what I was doing a bit more. But I can see how not having to think about this might be attractive too.
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 18, 2019 0:01:32 GMT
RP issues aside -- I agree that it doesn't make sense for a player to think of this as a minigame unless he's role-playing a PUA -- how much gaminess should a RPG romance track even have? In the sense of having success states, fail states, and various strategies the playet can employ to determine which outcome he gets. In DA romances usually piggyback on the approval minigame, with one or two special cases like blowing up the Alistair romance at the Landsmeet. (Plus an associated fetch quest in some DAI cases.) ME follows the older BG model, where you just get on the track and stay there unless you deliberately crash it. I wouldn't mind having to think about what I was doing a bit more. But I can see how not having to think about this might be attractive too. You just know that a more involved romantic subplot would involve a lot of multiple choice questions to test your memory on dialogue. Gods help you if you skipped any of it.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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ahglock
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February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Jan 5, 2020 0:55:19 GMT
Personally I'd rather they either put a lot more into it or drop it. I'm not happy with what we have, its not bad its just meh and I'd rather the resources go someplace else if they aren't going to do it right. I'm fine with player sexual but usually when its brought up a lot of people are completely against it.
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Mr. Rump
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Lavochkin
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August 2016
lavochkin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on Jan 14, 2020 1:08:37 GMT
Problem is in part in thinking of romances as a "minigame" instead of a roleplaying opportunity. Well, when the "romances" serve no narrative or character development purpose, can you blame anyone for seeing them that way? That's without getting into the issue of how poorly developed and corny they can be.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Iakus
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jan 14, 2020 3:52:50 GMT
Problem is in part in thinking of romances as a "minigame" instead of a roleplaying opportunity. Well, when the "romances" serve no narrative or character development purpose, can you blame anyone for seeing them that way? That's without getting into the issue of how poorly developed and corny they can be. Shooting mechanics are just a minigame. Change my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 8:15:35 GMT
Well, when the "romances" serve no narrative or character development purpose, can you blame anyone for seeing them that way? That's without getting into the issue of how poorly developed and corny they can be. Shooting mechanics are just a minigame. Change my mind. I agree. Roleplaying is also a mini-game. Combined, they are all components of a video-game.
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