inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 6:07:06 GMT
Elthina got better than she deserved. I would've forced her into mage robes and chucked her in the Gallows so she could experience the suffering of the mages firsthand.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 6:17:32 GMT
This. Simply. Not. Right. She didn't want to see any future, she just wanted to survive her sin of silence. Well didn't succeed – that happens. In her position to remain silent, to remain "neutral" – is a deadly sin. If she risked showing some opinion, but still dies – she would die as a worthy person. The mages were corrupt and out of control and needed to be slapped back into line. If anything Elthina turned her back on the templars and made their jobs much tougher.
And for her trouble she and many others were murdered by a mage, which instantly made the mages the biggest bad guys in the land.
Pity the mages did not have reasonable, same leadership (like Wynne for instance) and had a selfish killer like Anders who corrupted a spirit.
Wynne the hypocrite, who fought against and killed templars because she wanted to save her own son more than she wanted to preserve the status quo? Wynne who helped hundreds of mages escape imprisonment, and destroyed all the phylacteries in the White Spire so they couldn't be tracked? That Wynne?
|
|
LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 4,834 Likes: 11,959
inherit
10314
0
May 15, 2024 16:34:12 GMT
11,959
LadyofNemesis
4,834
July 2018
ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by LadyofNemesis on Jun 23, 2020 9:05:05 GMT
Wynne the hypocrite, who fought against and killed templars because she wanted to save her own son more than she wanted to preserve the status quo? Wynne who helped hundreds of mages escape imprisonment, and destroyed all the phylacteries in the White Spire so they couldn't be tracked? That Wynne? hypocrite or finally shaken awake?
Wynne was a quite loyal mage toward both the Circle and Chantry that's true, but I rather liked her change in Asunder and regardless of whether or not Wynne hadn't done so...Lambert was going to kill them all, she saved what she -at the time- found most important.
The future of mages in Southern Thedas, and the life of a son that was taken from her by that same Circle and Chantry, and she gave up her own life in order to see to it he had a future with the person he loved. I call that noble, it might be a bit hypocrite as well...but still a rather noble decision.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2020 10:10:12 GMT
This. Simply. Not. Right. She didn't want to see any future, she just wanted to survive her sin of silence. Well didn't succeed – that happens. In her position to remain silent, to remain "neutral" – is a deadly sin. If she risked showing some opinion, but still dies – she would die as a worthy person. The mages were corrupt and out of control and needed to be slapped back into line. If anything Elthina turned her back on the templars and made their jobs much tougher.
And for her trouble she and many others were murdered by a mage, which instantly made the mages the biggest bad guys in the land.
Pity the mages did not have reasonable, same leadership (like Wynne for instance) and had a selfish killer like Anders who corrupted a spirit. If she had supported Meredith's madness more, she would have been a clearly criminal... but at least openly. Not that "worthy enemy" like the Arishok, but at least not a slug. With the greatest benevolence, we can say he was blind or an idiot. But there are a lot of things that show that none ... Probably Wynne would have been a good choice, while I think, Orsino still did his work well. She was able to die in the Origin for the mages, also I loved in the Asunder, when she invaded to the Phylactery Chamber of the White Spire with Shale, and destroyed it. So: I don't think, she would just see silently Meredith's madness. (But I think, you tought rather about a pudding-Wynne. But she was not like that.)
|
|
Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 15,053 Likes: 35,913
Member is Online
inherit
Little Pumpkin
314
0
Member is Online
May 16, 2024 16:10:36 GMT
35,913
Beerfish
15,053
August 2016
beerfish
https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Beerfish
Beerfish77
|
Post by Beerfish on Jun 23, 2020 14:05:53 GMT
The mages were corrupt and out of control and needed to be slapped back into line. If anything Elthina turned her back on the templars and made their jobs much tougher.
And for her trouble she and many others were murdered by a mage, which instantly made the mages the biggest bad guys in the land.
Pity the mages did not have reasonable, same leadership (like Wynne for instance) and had a selfish killer like Anders who corrupted a spirit.
Wynne the hypocrite, who fought against and killed templars because she wanted to save her own son more than she wanted to preserve the status quo? Wynne who helped hundreds of mages escape imprisonment, and destroyed all the phylacteries in the White Spire so they couldn't be tracked? That Wynne? Yes indeed, you do know why Wynne did those things correct? Her traitorous Anders like son Rhys and his ultimate traitor girlfriend evangeline.
Wynne was a moderate right up until the end and the moment she died sacrificing herself for her son her son, very Anders like indeed immediately took her place and immediately did a one eighty from her long held views.
The only ones in the series more loathsome than Anders (who had a bit of an excuse being batshit crazy) were Rhys and Evangeline.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 14:32:59 GMT
Wynne the hypocrite, who fought against and killed templars because she wanted to save her own son more than she wanted to preserve the status quo? Wynne who helped hundreds of mages escape imprisonment, and destroyed all the phylacteries in the White Spire so they couldn't be tracked? That Wynne? Yes indeed, you do know why Wynne did those things correct? Her traitorous Anders like son Rhys and his ultimate traitor girlfriend evangeline.
Wynne was a moderate right up until the end and the moment she died sacrificing herself for her son her son, very Anders like indeed immediately took her place and immediately did a one eighty from her long held views.
The only ones in the series more loathsome than Anders (who had a bit of an excuse being batshit crazy) were Rhys and Evangeline.
Wynne broke Chantry rules by meeting Rhys. She broke Chantry rules by having a child in the first place. She's not a moderate, she's a hypocrite who breaks rules whenever she wants to. The templars should have killed her years ago. If you like Wynne, then you hate the Chantry.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2020 15:28:33 GMT
Wynne the hypocrite, who fought against and killed templars because she wanted to save her own son more than she wanted to preserve the status quo? Wynne who helped hundreds of mages escape imprisonment, and destroyed all the phylacteries in the White Spire so they couldn't be tracked? That Wynne? Yes indeed, you do know why Wynne did those things correct? Her traitorous Anders like son Rhys and his ultimate traitor girlfriend evangeline.
Wynne was a moderate right up until the end and the moment she died sacrificing herself for her son her son, very Anders like indeed immediately took her place and immediately did a one eighty from her long held views.
The only ones in the series more loathsome than Anders (who had a bit of an excuse being batshit crazy) were Rhys and Evangeline. Rhis was too hesitant sometimes to my taste, but at the end he was simply great. He left the Libertarians for the hesitant-lukewarm, but not necessarily Chantry-bootlicker Aequitarians, and led them to the rebellion. It was the best step: we don't know, what the Aequitarians would do without a leader, who already capable to decide: perhaps nothing, and the Libertarians wouldn't be able to win alone. The "Loyalists" (in Asunder they were described like a bunch of senile old crows) were the traitor of their kind, and the little fractions were cowards. But I still think, the Aequitarians (Irving*, personally) gave the position to Rhis, because the majority of them (just like Irving himself) WANTED it. Just they weren't sure, they would be able to decide... so: they gave the responsibility to Rhis, who lived with this trust well! Wynne would be proud of him! It is a mistake to think, the Aequitarians loved the Circle, like the spineless "Loyalists". The Aequitarians were the greatest faction, with different people, the only thing was similar in them: their beliefs, than their magic should serve the good. And I think they didn't believe, the independence is achievable, so they tried to reform in little steps. As Wynne said to the Mage Warden: if s/he would go back to the Circle, as a hero, they would be able to achieve bigger reforms. And as she also tried... but failed at the peaceful solution, because it was not a possibility. Evangeline was not a traitor. While I found her annoying at the beginning, she at the end did the only right thing: protected people from unleashed mob (aka: Templars/Seekers), who created the wars for their wounded pride. They were traitors, not Evangeline. ___ *Irving was a mediocre mage, and tired opportunist – but we experienced at the end of DAO, that Irving was very happy with that momentary independence (Alistair/Anora, of course was not able to outwrite the Chantry's rules...), so: Irving was not really a fan of the system... And of course (just because of you mentioned Anders):
|
|
inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by Sonya on Jun 25, 2020 16:03:36 GMT
Wynne? Are you kidding?
Even if she did something good in those books and was ready to die protecting the circle, people tend to forget something: even if a person did something good, but later or under certain circumstances acts like an idiot - such person can't be trusted.
A simple exaample of Wynne's behaviour in DAO about which we all know.
Whynne: "I'will help you. You need all the help you can get. There are only TWO GWs and you need help".
Later, you want to gain power to fight the great evil that can destroy the whole world, you use dragon blood in Haven.
What does Wynne do? She attacks you to get revenge: that dust/bones/whatever is already full of blood, there is nothing she can do. Revenge.
After those promising words of help she attacks you knowing there is a Blight, there are only TWO GWs and one of them is a whinning 'I'll do what you say".
That Blight is spreading, people are dying, BUT Whynne only cares about that dust. To hell the whole world! Let it be destroyed!
If she is in the camp she simply leaves.
How can I trust such a woman? She does want is convenient for her, in that case she does not care about the whole world.
A great example of hypocricy.
No way Wynne can be some leader. Now way I will follow her.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 25, 2020 17:20:19 GMT
Wynne? Are you kidding?
Even if she did something good in those books and was ready to die protecting the circle, people tend to forget something: even if a person did something good, but later or under certain circumstances acts like an idiot - such person can't be trusted.
A simple exaample of Wynne's behaviour in DAO about which we all know.
Whynne: "I'will help you. You need all the help you can get. There are only TWO GWs and you need help".
Later, you want to gain power to fight the great evil that can destroy the whole world, you use dragon blood in Haven.
What does Wynne do? She attacks you to get revenge: that dust/bones/whatever is already full of blood, there is nothing she can do. Revenge.
After those promising words of help she attacks you knowing there is a Blight, there are only TWO GWs and one of them is a whinning 'I'll do what you say".
That Blight is spreading, people are dying, BUT Whynne only cares about that dust. To hell the whole world! Let it be destroyed!
If she is in the camp she simply leaves.
How can I trust such a woman? She does want is convenient for her, in that case she does not care about the whole world.
A great example of hypocricy.
No way Wynne can be some leader. Now way I will follow her. Not hypocrisy. I think it was rather Faith.
|
|
inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by Sonya on Jun 25, 2020 18:00:41 GMT
Not hypocrisy. I think it was rather Faith. Yes, it was Faith. Only hypocrisy involves many such "strong believes". Telling "I'll help you" and after attack you because "faith" - what it is if not hypocrisy? Pretending to be a good person ready to help, but when it comes down to such "strong believes"- showing what it truely important for that person. Nothing else matters.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,279
Hanako Ikezawa
22,377
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 25, 2020 18:03:15 GMT
Not hypocrisy. I think it was rather Faith. Yes, it was Faith. Only hypocrisy involves many such "strong believes". Telling "I'll help you" and after attack you because "faith" - what it is if not hypocrisy? Pretending to be a good person ready to help, but when it comes down to such "strong believes"- showing what it truely important for that person. Nothing else matters. I think they meant it was the spirit of Faith that is possessing Wynne that made her do that, not just Wynne's faith. Hence why they capitalized it. Same reason Justice/Vengeance lashes out at things against its nature.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 25, 2020 18:17:37 GMT
Not hypocrisy. I think it was rather Faith. Yes, it was Faith. Only hypocrisy involves many such "strong believes". Telling "I'll help you" and after attack you because "faith" - what it is if not hypocrisy? Pretending to be a good person ready to help, but when it comes down to such "strong believes"- showing what it truely important for that person. Nothing else matters. I mean her Spirit of Faith.
|
|
inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by Sonya on Jun 25, 2020 19:55:31 GMT
I mean her Spirit of Faith. Understand. My bad. In this case it is even better.: Justice decides for Anders, Faith decides for Wynne. What other tricks Faith -Wynne can show? Sort of terrifying to have such likes as Wynne (and similar to her) nearby. Opiniion is the same.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 25, 2020 19:59:29 GMT
I mean her Spirit of Faith. Understand. My bad. In this case it is even better.: Justice decides for Anders, Faith decides for Wynne. What other tricks Faith -Wynne can show? Sort of terrifying to have such likes as Wynne (and similar to her) nearby. Opiniion is the same. I agree, Orsino was better here. And Wynne in the White Spire.
|
|
inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by Sonya on Jun 25, 2020 20:03:54 GMT
I agree, Orsino was better here. And Wynne in the White Spire. Can't say that agree about Orsino as 'reasons", but about Wynne - agree with you. She is better only there, not as some leader e.g.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,941 Likes: 17,670
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Apr 19, 2024 16:40:05 GMT
17,670
dmc1001
9,941
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Sept 14, 2020 5:14:41 GMT
Elthina blew it, and not because she didn't choose a side. She should have been there all along, acting as a moderator between Orsino and Meredith. Instead, she hung out in the Chantry and did nothing. I liked her but she did a terrible job. I think the whole thing might have been averted had she taken a firmer hand. Meredith respected her to the point that she did NOT want Orsino to get her. Meredith didn't want to be told to stand down but I think she might have. Or maybe not since she was already red lyrium corrupted.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
May 27, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
440
kalreegar
395
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 1, 2020 15:53:46 GMT
Elthina was a very weak, irresolute, low energy person.
Clearly a godly good woman, but more suited to the role of grandmother or at best to manage a chantry in a small village like lothering or redcliff... surely not a complex and turbulent city such as kirkwall.
Very interesting character, though. I found her a perfect exemplification of Peter's principle (people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent)
Still, Anders was cowardly and unfair to hit her, and he certainly deserves death for this act, I have never had any doubts about it.
But even this is "historically" very accurate, often in situations of heavy violance where there are two factions that hate each other , whoever tries to mediate falls victim to some extremist from one of the two factions (e.g. Folke Bernadotte, Gandhi etc.)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2020 16:21:15 GMT
Elthina was a very weak, irresolute, low energy person. Clearly a godly good woman, but more suited to the role of grandmother or at best to manage a chantry in a small village like lothering or redcliff... surely not a complex and turbulent city such as kirkwall. Very interesting character, though. I found her a perfect exemplification of Peter's principle ( people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent) Still, Anders was cowardly and unfair to hit her, and he certainly deserves death for this act, I have never had any doubts about it. But even this is "historically" very accurate, often in situations of heavy violance where there are two factions that hate each other , whoever tries to mediate falls victim to some extremist from one of the two factions (e.g. Folke Bernadotte, Gandhi etc.) Elthina knew everything and did nothing. She should have been an idiot blind person, not a benevolent gramma if she really didn't see the situation. She covered Meredith's crime, because she was sure, its necessary, and if she would agree with the Circle mages about the EXTREME abuses (not Anders was the extremists, but everyone who believed Meredith does anything good, and she's right about anything. But we saw, she's not idiot. Anders: How can you keep standing up for her? Sebastian: Who? Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric. Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise— Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands. Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done. Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth. Anders is very much right here. In fact very much benevolent toward Elthina (he was also too benevolent when he spoke about Meredith in the Act2). Anders hoped, they have any common sense and benevolence, but they haven't any. An example of "neutrality" if the parties aren't equal: Elthina irked me so much, while she has a sarcastic humour I can appreciate... when she spoke about Petrice. Elthina was not benevolent (a benevolent leader would at least try to eliminate the abuses and crimes, she did not), she had so much pride, to believe she's untouchable, and able to show "neutrality". But in that kind of neutrality means support Meredith, because Meredith was in charge. Alistair, a guest saw, that the greatest danger in the city is Meredith – but Elthina didn't see anything? The nobles cooperated with Hawke to defend the city against Meredith's madness. Elthina was a cancer in the city... besides Meredith. Elthina straightforward said to Hawke: she will step when the time coming. Well she was late, and her pride ("I'm Grand Cleric, who dare attack me?"), sloth was her fate. To be honest, I do like it. She was not benevolent. If was not direct malevolent, then she just tried to play with time – and with people's life.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
May 27, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
440
kalreegar
395
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 1, 2020 16:52:12 GMT
I never said she was neutral. Nor did her role require her to be perfectly neutral and equidistant. It is clear that, on a scale from 1 to 100 where 1 is Meredith, 20 is Cullen/Sebastian, 40 is Thrask, 60 is Orsino, 80 is Anders 90 is Merrill and 100 is Flemeth/Morrigan, Elthina certainly cannot position herself around 50, as Grand Cleric she will be something between 25 and 35 at best.
She cannot question the dogmas of the Chantry, the Circles system, the axiom that mages must be checked and controlled, even with harsh methods, if necessary, etc.
But, starting from these assumptions, she tried to mediate. Inadequately, of course, but because she was incapable, and old tired lady... not because of reactionary beliefs and attitudes.
Killing her was definitely not an act of justice, that was pure and simple terrorism. vengeance, cynically useful to the mage cause perhaps, but not justice.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 1, 2020 17:03:09 GMT
I never said she was neutral. Nor did her role require her to be perfectly neutral and equidistant. It is clear that, on a scale from 1 to 100 where 1 is Meredith, 20 is Cullen/Sebastian, 40 is Thrask, 60 is Orsino, 80 is Anders 90 is Merrill and 100 is Flemeth/Morrigan, Elthina certainly cannot position herself around 50, as Grand Cleric she will be something between 25 and 35 at best. She cannot question the dogmas of the Chantry, the Circles system, the axiom that mages must be checked and controlled, even with harsh methods, if necessary, etc. But, starting from these assumptions, she tried to mediate. Inadequately, of course, but because she was incapable, and old tired lady... not because of reactionary beliefs and attitudes. Killing her was definitely not an act of justice, that was pure and simple terrorism. vengeance, cynically useful to the mage cause perhaps, but not justice. She broke the Chantry's law and ideal, with her apathy. She don't have to question the Circle if try to kick Meredith, in fact, it would strengthen the Circle... A real Andrastian would have been righteously outrageous hearing about her decision (it was a decision: to let the mages and the city rotten under a madwoman tyranny) Even Sebastian criticized her – true, from another angle, but still. The nobles who stood against her were Andrastian – and probably they haven't any problem with the whole Circle-system, but Meredith. Anders is a freedom fighter and was no coward. He didn't fear the death or the fight. This was his target. Absolutely "grey" act in this situation. Morally questionable... true, but it worked, when nothing else. In a world, were the Annulment is a "right", and the Tranquility is a "mercy", the Harrowing is an "exam", not mentioned imprisoning innocents, and those counts necessary, GREY – Anders was the good guy, and his act, is GREY. We can't compare it with our modern world – only with the darkest eras...
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
May 16, 2024 14:16:51 GMT
26,692
gervaise21
10,816
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2020 20:45:54 GMT
I've been re-reading the transcript of the confrontation between Meredith and Orsino at the beginning of Act 3 and I still feel sorry for Orsino because he wasn't complaining about wanting mage freedom, he was actually standing up for the right of the citizens to have a secular ruler. Meredith claims she is needed to keep order until a ruler capable of succeeding where Dumar failed. But where exactly did he fail? The city was running much better under his rule than hers? It was the Chantry sister who undermined his efforts at keeping the peace with the Qunari and the Templars who consistently failed to deal with rogue mages. When Hawke points out that Meredith's measures have become more extreme over the last 3 years, Meredith uses the death of Hawke's mother to suggest they aren't any better at controlling rogue mages. Let me see, who was it who ordered Emerich to stop investigating Gaspard du Pius, who was in fact a blood mage? I seem to recall that was Meredith. If she had backed her Templar in investigating the matter, may be they would have found the madman sooner.
Orsino asks the very reasonable question, if she does not see a capable ruler, will the Templars rule the city forever? He also point out that the Templars duty is to guard the Chantry and the Circle and the nobles should be allowed to run the city. Whilst I will admit that the nobles appear pretty spineless in not stepping in and backing him, the fact is we know that Meredith's Templars have been terrorising anyone who stands up to them, hence the comment from Hawke about extreme measures. Yet, the city streets are as lawless as ever at night, including blood mages who were not present when Dumar was in charge.
So how is Elthina helping matters by maintaining neutrality and saying that the Maker will help each side to see reason if he wills it? Which is a giant cop out from doing anything. It is quite clear, either she agrees that Meredith should be in control and thus have religious martial law in the city indefinitely, or she should tell Meredith to stand aside and allow a secular ruler to take charge of running the city. Orsino might be a mage but that doesn't make his points any less valid. Hawke can back him on this as a non-mage noble and she still refuses to do anything but let the Meredith continue to usurp the rule of the city, acting outside her remit as a Templar. This has gone on for 3 years and the state of the city has got progressively worse in that time.
So Elthina is only right in staying neutral if you agree that the Templars should be controlling the city rather than simply the Gallows. Of course she is not really neutral. By allowing this state to continue, she is tacitly giving her support to Meredith. If someone hadn't broken the deadlock this probably would have gone on indefinitely or at least until finally Meredith did tip over the edge but probably only after she had wiped out anybody resisting her rule.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Oct 4, 2020 18:31:58 GMT
So how is Elthina helping matters by maintaining neutrality and saying that the Maker will help each side to see reason if he wills it? Which is a giant cop out from doing anything. It is quite clear, either she agrees that Meredith should be in control and thus have religious martial law in the city indefinitely, or she should tell Meredith to stand aside and allow a secular ruler to take charge of running the city. Orsino might be a mage but that doesn't make his points any less valid. Hawke can back him on this as a non-mage noble and she still refuses to do anything but let the Meredith continue to usurp the rule of the city, acting outside her remit as a Templar. This has gone on for 3 years and the state of the city has got progressively worse in that time. So Elthina is only right in staying neutral if you agree that the Templars should be controlling the city rather than simply the Gallows. Of course she is not really neutral. By allowing this state to continue, she is tacitly giving her support to Meredith. If someone hadn't broken the deadlock this probably would have gone on indefinitely or at least until finally Meredith did tip over the edge but probably only after she had wiped out anybody resisting her rule. The issue is that, as Elthina herself recognized, Meredith was unresonable and was never going to step down willingly. Elthina's neutrality stemmed from her wish to avoid bloodshed. If she sides with Orsino and declares that Meredith needs to step down, then she will have divided the city in half. In the best case scenario, half of the Templars will side with most Nobles, mages and the city guard in order to march on the Gallows, kill Meredith's supporters and arrest her. Civil war in Kirkwall which will lead to the Divine sending her own Templars and Seekers to impose peace. And, in the midst of this chaos, those mages who were out of control (and there were a lot) will do Maker knows what.
If she sides with Meredith, then she is supporting her more draconian measures which everyone agrees are increasingly out of line such as trying to control the city guard. Meredith continues unchecked and more people will suffer from her tyranny.
Both choices suck so, she chose neither.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2020 18:43:25 GMT
So how is Elthina helping matters by maintaining neutrality and saying that the Maker will help each side to see reason if he wills it? Which is a giant cop out from doing anything. It is quite clear, either she agrees that Meredith should be in control and thus have religious martial law in the city indefinitely, or she should tell Meredith to stand aside and allow a secular ruler to take charge of running the city. Orsino might be a mage but that doesn't make his points any less valid. Hawke can back him on this as a non-mage noble and she still refuses to do anything but let the Meredith continue to usurp the rule of the city, acting outside her remit as a Templar. This has gone on for 3 years and the state of the city has got progressively worse in that time. So Elthina is only right in staying neutral if you agree that the Templars should be controlling the city rather than simply the Gallows. Of course she is not really neutral. By allowing this state to continue, she is tacitly giving her support to Meredith. If someone hadn't broken the deadlock this probably would have gone on indefinitely or at least until finally Meredith did tip over the edge but probably only after she had wiped out anybody resisting her rule. The issue is that, as Elthina herself recognized, Meredith was unresonable and was never going to step down willingly. Elthina's neutrality stemmed from her wish to avoid bloodshed. If she sides with Orsino and declares that Meredith needs to step down, then she will have divided the city in half. In the best case scenario, half of the Templars will side with most Nobles, mages and the city guard in order to march on the Gallows, kill Meredith's supporters and arrest her. Civil war in Kirkwall which will lead to the Divine sending her own Templars and Seekers to impose peace. And, in the midst of this chaos, those mages who were out of control (and there were a lot) will do Maker knows what.
If she sides with Meredith, then she is supporting her more draconian measures which everyone agrees are increasingly out of line such as trying to control the city guard. Meredith continues unchecked and more people will suffer from her tyranny.
Both choices suck so, she chose neither. NOT Orsino or Meredith. The game hinted that bullshit, that Elthina should choose between Orsino and Meredith, and most of the people swallow. NOT. This simply not right. Elthina should choose between Meredith's crimes and the righteousness – Meredith's tyranny and the city. And Elthina CHOSE: she supported the crime and the tyranny, against the righteousness and the city. By the way... why would he tear the city apart if she would replace or require the replacement of that madwoman who ruled over the city AGAINST the law? The nobles of the city wanted to rebel against Meredith's tyranny.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
May 27, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
440
kalreegar
395
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 5, 2020 9:43:27 GMT
The issue is that, as Elthina herself recognized, Meredith was unresonable and was never going to step down willingly. Elthina's neutrality stemmed from her wish to avoid bloodshed. If she sides with Orsino and declares that Meredith needs to step down, then she will have divided the city in half. In the best case scenario, half of the Templars will side with most Nobles, mages and the city guard in order to march on the Gallows, kill Meredith's supporters and arrest her. Civil war in Kirkwall which will lead to the Divine sending her own Templars and Seekers to impose peace. And, in the midst of this chaos, those mages who were out of control (and there were a lot) will do Maker knows what.
If she sides with Meredith, then she is supporting her more draconian measures which everyone agrees are increasingly out of line such as trying to control the city guard. Meredith continues unchecked and more people will suffer from her tyranny.
Both choices suck so, she chose neither. NOT Orsino or Meredith. The game hinted that bullshit, that Elthina should choose between Orsino and Meredith, and most of the people swallow. NOT. This simply not right. Elthina should choose between Meredith's crimes and the righteousness – Meredith's tyranny and the city. And Elthina CHOSE: she supported the crime and the tyranny, against the righteousness and the city. By the way... why would he tear the city apart if she would replace or require the replacement of that madwoman who ruled over the city AGAINST the law? The nobles of the city wanted to rebel against Meredith's tyranny. mmm no. You cannot ignore the context, and the relationship between meredith, the templars order and the church's top hierarchy. Kirkwall is one the most important templar's stronghold. Meredith was decisive in preserving this very important stronghold twice: by arresting Viscount Perrin (who had set himself against the interests of the Church) and then defeating the Qunari (also their enemies of the Faith). Elthina simply does not have the authority ((formal and above all substantial)) to remove Meredith. She is too important a figure within the Chantry, with too many successes in her curriculum. The most Elthina can do is to try to limit Meredith's overwhelming power, trying to balance it with other figures (e.g., Hawke). The idea that Elthina could openly take sides against Meredith, undermining one of the most important geopolitical interests of the Chantry, is unrealistic.
|
|
inherit
1020
0
Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
21,685
fylimar
5,415
Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by fylimar on Oct 5, 2020 9:54:19 GMT
Elthina could have asked for help within the Chantry, if she thought, she can't take on Meredith on her own, that her authority might not be enough. I'm pretty sure, the Divine might have seen reason, if Elthina brought up the issue of Meredith acting as ruler of the city without having the right. I think, she should at least have tried.
|
|