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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 9:58:45 GMT
NOT Orsino or Meredith. The game hinted that bullshit, that Elthina should choose between Orsino and Meredith, and most of the people swallow. NOT. This simply not right. Elthina should choose between Meredith's crimes and the righteousness – Meredith's tyranny and the city. And Elthina CHOSE: she supported the crime and the tyranny, against the righteousness and the city. By the way... why would he tear the city apart if she would replace or require the replacement of that madwoman who ruled over the city AGAINST the law? The nobles of the city wanted to rebel against Meredith's tyranny. mmm no. You cannot ignore the context, and the relationship between meredith, the templars order and the church's top hierarchy. Kirkwall is one the most important templar's stronghold. Meredith was decisive in preserving this very important stronghold twice: by arresting Viscount Perrin (who had set himself against the interests of the Church) and then defeating the Qunari (also their enemies of the Faith). Elthina simply does not have the authority ((formal and above all substantial)) to remove Meredith. She is too important a figure within the Chantry, with too many successes in her curriculum. The most Elthina can do is to try to limit Meredith's overwhelming power, trying to balance it with other figures (e.g., Hawke). The idea that Elthina could openly take sides against Meredith, undermining one of the most important geopolitical interests of the Chantry, is unrealistic. Perrin Threnhold was against ORLAIS' interest and the Chantry as the Divine's friendship of Orlais' Emperor, intervened to a political conflict what was NOT the Chantry's business. Meredith didn't beat the Qunari alone – in fact, she late a big part of it, rofl... Meredith is a criminal, and Elthina knew about it. I don't see, why would the Chantry's interest to keep a criminal in position (if we assume, the Chantry is a benevolent institute, of course...) Meredith is NOT the only Templar in creation – she's just one of them. I didn't even say: Elthina should let the mages free – only to request Meredith's replacement. If she (as the governor of the Divine in Kirkwall) so weak to replace her. It was not only Orsino's interest, or just the Circle mages interest in the Gallows, but Kirkwall's interest. It NOT about Orsino and Meredith. It's about ONLY the righteousness against the unleashed crime of Meredith. Elthina voted to the crime.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 5, 2020 10:30:30 GMT
mmm no. You cannot ignore the context, and the relationship between meredith, the templars order and the church's top hierarchy.
Kirkwall is one the most important templar's stronghold. Meredith was decisive in preserving this very important stronghold twice: by arresting Viscount Perrin (who had set himself against the interests of the Church) and then defeating the Qunari (also their enemies of the Faith). Elthina simply does not have the authority ((formal and above all substantial)) to remove Meredith. She is too important a figure within the Chantry, with too many successes in her curriculum. The most Elthina can do is to try to limit Meredith's overwhelming power, trying to balance it with other figures (e.g., Hawke).
The idea that Elthina could openly take sides against Meredith, undermining one of the most important geopolitical interests of the Chantry, is unrealistic. Perrin Threnhold was against ORLAIS' interest and the Chantry as the Divine's friendship of Orlais' Emperor, intervened to a political conflict what was NOT the Chantry's business. Meredith didn't beat the Qunari alone – in fact, she late a big part of it, rofl... Meredith is a criminal, and Elthina knew about it. I don't see, why would the Chantry's interest to keep a criminal in position (if we assume, the Chantry is a benevolent institute, of course...) Meredith is NOT the only Templar in creation – she's just one of them. I didn't even say: Elthina should let the mages free – only to request Meredith's replacement. If she (as the governor of the Divine in Kirkwall) so weak to replace her. It was not only Orsino's interest, or just the Circle mages interest in the Gallows, but Kirkwall's interest. It NOT about Orsino and Meredith. It's about ONLY the righeousness against the unleashed crime. Elthina voted to the crime. no, she is just a weak old woman, who hopes to solve everything without excessive bloodshed, traumatic revolutions, etc.. even during act 3, elthina tells hawke that she is continuing to mediate between meredith and hawke, and that she still believes that a compromise is still possible. It is an error of judgement, excessive fear of change, but that does not make her a criminal. meredith's removal is an act beyond her competence and actual power. doing what you say she should have done, would have made her a heroine, a saint, a daring reformist, a giant. she wasn't. But no one can be accused of not being a hero, a saint, a giant. 99% of people are like elthina, grey people, who do no harm to anyone personally, but who are aware of the injustices of the world but do not act, or act in a feeble, hesitant way.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 10:42:41 GMT
Perrin Threnhold was against ORLAIS' interest and the Chantry as the Divine's friendship of Orlais' Emperor, intervened to a political conflict what was NOT the Chantry's business. Meredith didn't beat the Qunari alone – in fact, she late a big part of it, rofl... Meredith is a criminal, and Elthina knew about it. I don't see, why would the Chantry's interest to keep a criminal in position (if we assume, the Chantry is a benevolent institute, of course...) Meredith is NOT the only Templar in creation – she's just one of them. I didn't even say: Elthina should let the mages free – only to request Meredith's replacement. If she (as the governor of the Divine in Kirkwall) so weak to replace her. It was not only Orsino's interest, or just the Circle mages interest in the Gallows, but Kirkwall's interest. It NOT about Orsino and Meredith. It's about ONLY the righeousness against the unleashed crime. Elthina voted to the crime. no, she is just a weak old woman, who hopes to solve everything without excessive bloodshed, traumatic revolutions, etc.. even during act 3, elthina tells hawke that she is continuing to mediate between meredith and hawke, and that she still believes that a compromise is still possible. It is an error of judgement, excessive fear of change, but that does not make her a criminal. meredith's removal is an act beyond her competence and actual power. doing what you say she should have done, would have made her a heroine, a saint, a daring reformist, a giant. she wasn't. But no one can be accused of not being a hero, a saint, a giant. 99% of people are like elthina, grey people, who do no harm to anyone personally, but who are aware of the injustices of the world but do not act, or act in a feeble, hesitant way. Elthina is not just an old praying auntie. She's not like a nice old reverend in a little sweetie church. Elthina and her Chantry is the greatest political power in Kirkwall. Her sin to allow Meredith unleashed. She has every right if not to replace her but request a replacement from the Divine. The Chantry own the Circles, the Chantry responsible for them. The Chantry don't want to let the Circles independent, the Chantry wanted this responsibility. And the Grand Cleric is the greatest power right after the Divine... She said herself, she will step, when the time will coming. She HAS power to step. Again: she said herself. Also Cullen in Act 3... She had enough pride and confidence to say: "I'm Grand Cleric, who would dare attack me?" So: she thinks, she's untouchable – why she would fear Meredith? Again: I didn't write, she should reform the system – just ask for punishment to a mad criminal tyrant, who prevents legal operation of the city.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 5, 2020 13:42:40 GMT
Lol. Fuck Elthina. She got a quicker death than she deserved.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 5, 2020 14:01:25 GMT
meredith's removal is an act beyond her competence and actual power. In fact, the local GC has authority over the KC, that's even mentioned in Elthina's codex entry. Actual power is a different thing, but if Elthina would call Meredith to be replaced and Meredith refused, called her a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, well...
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 5, 2020 14:30:58 GMT
n fact, the local GC has authority over the KC, that's even mentioned in Elthina's codex entry. Actual power is a different thing, but if Elthina would call Meredith to be replaced and Meredith refused, called her a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, well... Yes, but this but that would have required steel balls, charisma, courage. Elthina has none of this. As I said, she is old, incompetent, too cautious, too hopeful that things will somehow work themselves out. Does that make her a criminal worthy of being blown up in the name of "justice"? no. She's just weak and blind, not a criminal. If the problem was meredith's madness, meredith's political ambitions, the "violation of the constitutional order of kirkwall", meredith's crimes against meges (such that a possible substitute would have been an acceptable solution... cullen or a guy like greagoir) then anders had to just blow meredith up. But anders in act3 is gone, he didn't give a damn about kirkwall, about the viscount, about justice... he just wanted to start a revolution. justifying the act of pure and simple terrorism by saying that it was done to punish elthina for not being able to fight/remove meredith is laughable. The terrorist act was done to start the revolution and remove compromise on greater scale, so much so that the follow-up in kirkwall to anders is of very little interest.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 5, 2020 15:12:49 GMT
Lol. Fuck Anders. It got a quicker death than it deserved. Fixed.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 15:30:18 GMT
n fact, the local GC has authority over the KC, that's even mentioned in Elthina's codex entry. Actual power is a different thing, but if Elthina would call Meredith to be replaced and Meredith refused, called her a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, well... Yes, but this but that would have required steel balls, charisma, courage. Elthina has none of this. As I said, she is old, incompetent, too cautious, too hopeful that things will somehow work themselves out. Does that make her a criminal worthy of being blown up in the name of "justice"? no. She's just weak and blind, not a criminal. If the problem was meredith's madness, meredith's political ambitions, the "violation of the constitutional order of kirkwall", meredith's crimes against meges (such that a possible substitute would have been an acceptable solution... cullen or a guy like greagoir) then anders had to just blow meredith up. But anders in act3 is gone, he didn't give a damn about kirkwall, about the viscount, about justice... he just wanted to start a revolution. justifying the act of pure and simple terrorism by saying that it was done to punish elthina for not being able to fight/remove meredith is laughable. The terrorist act was done to start the revolution and remove compromise on greater scale, so much so that the follow-up in kirkwall to anders is of very little interest. The question here is not about Anders but ONLY about Elthina, let's read the title of topic. And about she did the right thing by staying neutral (rofl, she was not neutral) or not. The answer: she did well, if her goal was the open war. And she achieved. And AGAIN: Elthina should do NOTHING else, if she's coward, ONLY send a letter to the Divine, the Seekers, and request Meredith's replacement. Where is the open conflict? The fight? ONLY a letter, nothing else. But I said already, she was not coward, she was overconfident about she's untouchable, she didn't fear from Meredith or anyone else. She was just spineless (if we are benevolent toward her.) If she would act – she would able to show: the Chantry cares for people – but she just gave another point to justify Anders. She was just blind? In some positions the blindness is a deadly sin. By the way: Anders is not "gone" in Act3, he wanted a revolution from this moment: (Anders' short story) The only question was: it can happen more peacefully, or the open violence is the only solution. He tried a more peaceful way. But his goal was not to save some mages from Meredith: he wanted to change the world – as Hawke said in DAI. And after years, he realized, it can't happen peacefully. And NOT Anders removed the chace of the compromise – because it was NO compromise.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 5, 2020 15:31:09 GMT
n fact, the local GC has authority over the KC, that's even mentioned in Elthina's codex entry. Actual power is a different thing, but if Elthina would call Meredith to be replaced and Meredith refused, called her a blood mage and tried to chop her head off, well... Yes, but this but that would have required steel balls, charisma, courage. Elthina has none of this. As I said, she is old, incompetent, too cautious, too hopeful that things will somehow work themselves out. Does that make her a criminal worthy of being blown up in the name of "justice"? no. She's just weak and blind, not a criminal. If the problem was meredith's madness, meredith's political ambitions, the "violation of the constitutional order of kirkwall", meredith's crimes against meges (such that a possible substitute would have been an acceptable solution... cullen or a guy like greagoir) then anders had to just blow meredith up. But anders in act3 is gone, he didn't give a damn about kirkwall, about the viscount, about justice... he just wanted to start a revolution. justifying the act of pure and simple terrorism by saying that it was done to punish elthina for not being able to fight/remove meredith is laughable. The terrorist act was done to start the revolution and remove compromise on greater scale, so much so that the follow-up in kirkwall to anders is of very little interest. Eh, (also Hanako Ikezawa) where did I say anything about Anders here? Just pointing out that Elthina does have an important post within the Chantry hierarchy, which gives her certain competences and arguably tasks. If she thinks for whatever reason that she either cannot or do not want these, she could have stepped down and asked to be replaced.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 5, 2020 18:01:38 GMT
Yes, please ignore Anders for the purposes of this debate because the thread is asking about Elthina and her decision to remain neutral. My argument is that she was never neutral. She might be maintaining she is neutral in the interests of peace but that is really only the case if you buy into the idea it is Orsino vs Meredith or mages vs Templars. As I have said, Orsino was not advocating free mages as Anders was. Orsino was trying to work within the system. However, it was clear that both within the Circle and in the wider city, rights of individuals were being denied by Meredith's rule. Orsino had the guts to stand up and try to encourage people to do something about it. Now according to Elthina's codex not only was she the authority of the Divine within the city but people had been complaining to the Divine that she was not exercising her authority properly, presumably even before the death of Viscount Dumar. In her confrontation with Orsino, Meredith makes it quite clear she intends running the city until she thinks it is safe. Meredith: Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms, do they not? As long as that’s true, Kirkwall needs its Templars more than it needs a new ruler. Orsino: And when will that end? When will you stop seeing evil in every corner? Meredith: When it’s no longer there. In other words, never. This has been going on for 3 years. The rule of the city is not better as a result of Meredith's dictatorship but far worse. Sebastian says during Act 3 that Meredith has stopped taking Elthina's advice and she still does nothing to replace her. The Grand Cleric has authority over the Templars not the other way around. We also learn from one of the Templars in the Gallows that Meredith has by-passed Elthina to apply to the Divine for an Annulment of the Circle, which is presumably why Sister Nightingale is sent to assess the situation. Yet apparently she merely warns Elthina to get out but does not see that Meredith is the problem for usurping the secular rule of the city or may be it suits the Divine not to see this because she is happy to have Kirkwall under religious dictatorship. The problem is very much the Chantry not simply the Templars because in this religious dictatorship they have the ultimate authority and responsibility. If the senior officials in the Chantry refuse to remove Meredith from power, it is because they support her actions and would actually be quite happy if the Templars ruled the city forever. And Varric thinks that supporting Meredith is "preserving our way of life". Get real Varric. I honestly think that Kirkwall would eventually have become another Tantervale where Chantry law is absolute. I'd love to see how Varric would have enjoyed that.
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Post by Mithras on Oct 5, 2020 18:35:33 GMT
The problem is very much the Chantry not simply the Templars because in this religious dictatorship they have the ultimate authority and responsibility. If the senior officials in the Chantry refuse to remove Meredith from power, it is because they support her actions and would actually be quite happy if the Templars ruled the city forever. And Varric thinks that supporting Meredith is "preserving our way of life". Get real Varric. I honestly think that Kirkwall would eventually have become another Tantervale where Chantry law is absolute. I'd love to see how Varric would have enjoyed that. Or because not only would removing the officer in charge of the strongest army in the Free Marches would be extremely difficult and costly but also because there are other pernicious and vile elements which help justify her rulership and would take advantage of the chaos precipitated by her forcible removal such as the Resolutionists. Furthermore, it was Elthina who would have had to send for help from Val Royeaux but she was adamant that she could end the issue peacefully. Also, what makes you think that the Divine's order for the Grand Cleric to evacuate the city was not in preparation for dealing with both Meredith and Orsino?
Also, there is nothing that indicates that there is a religious dictatorship in Tantervale rather than the people there simply being really, really religious.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 18:50:02 GMT
The problem is very much the Chantry not simply the Templars because in this religious dictatorship they have the ultimate authority and responsibility. If the senior officials in the Chantry refuse to remove Meredith from power, it is because they support her actions and would actually be quite happy if the Templars ruled the city forever. And Varric thinks that supporting Meredith is "preserving our way of life". Get real Varric. I honestly think that Kirkwall would eventually have become another Tantervale where Chantry law is absolute. I'd love to see how Varric would have enjoyed that. Or because not only would removing the officer in charge of the strongest army in the Free Marches would be extremely difficult and costly but also because there are other pernicious and vile elements which help justify her rulership and would take advantage of the chaos precipitated by her forcible removal such as the Resolutionists. Furthermore, it was Elthina who would have had to send for help from Val Royeaux but she was adamant that she could end the issue peacefully. Also, what makes you think that the Divine's order for the Grand Cleric to evacuate the city was not in preparation for dealing with both Meredith and Orsino?
Also, there is nothing that indicates that there is a religious dictatorship in Tantervale rather than the people there simply being really, really religious. To remove Meredith wouldn't dictatorship: what Meredith did was. How would it so hard? There are many Templars. And seems you forget the fact: the nobles also prepared to a war against Meredith. So: Elthina with her "neutrality" supported Meredith and a war.
And she just sat on her powder keg and says: she will step when the time's coming, and she's the Grand Cleric, who dares attack her...
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 5, 2020 18:53:23 GMT
In my opinion it is essential to consider that kirkwall is a very important military center for the Chantry. There is an entire army of Templars stationed there, and they are decisive for maintaining the power and sphere of influence of the Chantry in the southeast Thedas. The mages, the repression of maleficarum etc... yes, important as well, but is secondary. Meredith is a ruthless and cruel leader who abuses the mages, but from a military point of view she is super competent, she has deposed the rebel Viscount, defeated the Qunari. She is feared. She is efficient.
From the chantry's point of view, and its geopolitical interests, removing a successful and efficient military commander like meredith, and thus potentially weaken such an important stronghold, is madness.
And the mages? Who cares.
And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 18:59:51 GMT
In my opinion it is essential to consider that kirkwall is a very important military center for the Chantry. There is an entire army of Templars stationed there, and they are decisive for maintaining the power and sphere of influence of the Chantry in the southeast Thedas. The mages, the repression of maleficarum etc... yes, important as well, but is secondary. Meredith is a ruthless and cruel leader who abuses the mages, but from a military point of view she is super competent, she has deposed the rebel Viscount, defeated the Qunari. She is feared. She is efficient. From the chantry's point of view, and its geopolitical interests, removing a successful and efficient military commander like meredith, and thus potentially weaken such an important stronghold, is madness. And the mages? Who cares. And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana. Okay... again... It was NOT only about the mages, but Meredith endangered the whole Kirkwall. Efficient? Far not. Only cruel, nothing else. She proved, she's absolutely unsuitable. And turned half of the nobles against the Templars. The nobles conspired against her. And the civil war wouldn't cause less bloodshed than Anders' explosion. And Elthina supported her... so: supported the war. Sometimes remain silent is a sin. (And this "Mages? Who cares" – was one of the reasons of Anders...)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 5, 2020 19:18:22 GMT
In my opinion it is essential to consider that kirkwall is a very important military center for the Chantry. There is an entire army of Templars stationed there, and they are decisive for maintaining the power and sphere of influence of the Chantry in the southeast Thedas. The mages, the repression of maleficarum etc... yes, important as well, but is secondary. Meredith is a ruthless and cruel leader who abuses the mages, but from a military point of view she is super competent, she has deposed the rebel Viscount, defeated the Qunari. She is feared. She is efficient. From the chantry's point of view, and its geopolitical interests, removing a successful and efficient military commander like meredith, and thus potentially weaken such an important stronghold, is madness. And the mages? Who cares. And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana. Okay... again... It was NOT only about the mages, but Meredith endangered the whole Kirkwall. Efficient? Far not. Only cruel, nothing else. She proved, she's absolutely unsuitable. And turned half of the nobles against the Templars. The nobles conspired against her. And the civil war wouldn't cause less bloodshed than Anders' explosion. And Elthina supported her... so: supported the war. Sometimes remain silent is a sin. (And this "Mages? Who cares" – was one of the reasons of Anders...) Hey, no bringing up Anders remember?
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 5, 2020 19:21:04 GMT
In my opinion it is essential to consider that kirkwall is a very important military center for the Chantry. There is an entire army of Templars stationed there, and they are decisive for maintaining the power and sphere of influence of the Chantry in the southeast Thedas. The mages, the repression of maleficarum etc... yes, important as well, but is secondary. Meredith is a ruthless and cruel leader who abuses the mages, but from a military point of view she is super competent, she has deposed the rebel Viscount, defeated the Qunari. She is feared. She is efficient. From the chantry's point of view, and its geopolitical interests, removing a successful and efficient military commander like meredith, and thus potentially weaken such an important stronghold, is madness. And the mages? Who cares. And Elthina? In fact, powerless. The best she could realistically do? Warn the divine. Express concern. Seek support (hawke, sebastian, alistair) Probably she has done something, if they sent Leliana. Okay... again... It was NOT only about the mages, but Meredith endangered the whole Kirkwall. Efficient? Far not. Only cruel, nothing else. She proved, she's absolutely unsuitable. And turned half of the nobles against the Templars. The nobles conspired against her. And the civil war wouldn't cause less bloodshed than Anders' explosion. And Elthina supported her... This is hindsight. She was bad as knightcommander, but the Chantry probably didn't care much. She was good as general/leader of a huge templar army. This matters A LOT. With hindsight, wa can agree that she should have been fired. But until she endegered the whole kirkwall.. the danger could may not seem so big. Especially from elthina "biased" prospective (weak, fearful and inclined to compromise). Elthina : Meredtih = Hindenburg/Chamberlain : Hitler. An old man who understimate the price of inaction and overestimated the benefits of peace/compromise.. and in any case with his hands tied on many things.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 19:42:12 GMT
Okay... again... It was NOT only about the mages, but Meredith endangered the whole Kirkwall. Efficient? Far not. Only cruel, nothing else. She proved, she's absolutely unsuitable. And turned half of the nobles against the Templars. The nobles conspired against her. And the civil war wouldn't cause less bloodshed than Anders' explosion. And Elthina supported her... This is hindsight. She was bad as knightcommander, but the Chantry probably didn't care much. She was good as general/leader of a huge templar army. This matters A LOT. With hindsight, wa can agree that she should have been fired. But until she endegered the whole kirkwall.. the danger could may not seem so big. Especially from elthina "biased" prospective (weak, fearful and inclined to compromise). Elthina : Meredtih = Hindenburg/Chamberlain : Hitler. An old man who understimate the price of inaction and overestimated the benefits of peace/compromise.. and in any case with his hands tied on many things. Still not an excuse to her. Far not. I'm sure many people warned her. I don't know, you played or not that part of the game when Hawke can co-operate with the nobles, who want to rebel. Those nobles thought their duty to defend Kirkwall against Meredith and her Templars. And also: I suppose, they spoke about the problem with Elthina. Yes, and this is why Anders' target was the Chantry, not the Templars.
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 5, 2020 20:27:25 GMT
Neutrality does not support anything. That's what the word "neutrality" means.
But hey, you're either for us or against us, right?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 5, 2020 20:35:24 GMT
Elthina should have just locked them both in a room and get it over with.
After all.... those two just wanted to f🤬🤬k. 😆
Edit: bloody phone....😠
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 20:43:06 GMT
Neutrality does not support anything. That's what the word "neutrality" means. But hey, you're either for us or against us, right? This kind of "neutrality" supports the stronger. Sometimes the "neutrality" is a sin. (I didn't use here the word 'neutrality' without quotation mark, because I know what the word means. This is my point she was not neutral.) For example in Kirkwall, in Meredith's case. Meredith was a mad criminal, and ruled over the city against the law. The legal ruler of Kirkwall is the Viscount – and she prevented the election. WHERE is the neutrality (here without quotation mark, because here the neutrality means 'neutrality') if someone support a criminal? Just stay and watch crimes is not neutrality. It was never.
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 5, 2020 20:50:35 GMT
Neutrality does not support anything. That's what the word "neutrality" means. But hey, you're either for us or against us, right? The "neutrality" supports the stronger. Sometimes the "neutrality" is a sin. (I never used here the word 'neutrality' without quotation mark.) For example in Kirkwall, in Meredith's case. Meredith was a mad criminal, and ruled over the city against the law. The legal ruler of Kirkwall is the Viscount – and she prevented the election. WHERE is the neutrality if someone support a criminal? Just stay and watch crimes is not neutrality. It was never. No it doesn't. If you support someone, you are not neutral. No action is not support. It is nothing and nothing can't have any effect. So what is it? If Elthina supported Meredith, she wasn't neutral and in the wrong. If she was neutral, she didn't support anyone - something I really wanted to choose at the end of the game but couldn't so I wouldn't blame anyone else for that. But I take it that the idea in this thread is "she was kinda neutral but not really". I honestly wonder how Elthina should have acted to be considered truly neutral.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 21:16:26 GMT
The "neutrality" supports the stronger. Sometimes the "neutrality" is a sin. (I never used here the word 'neutrality' without quotation mark.) For example in Kirkwall, in Meredith's case. Meredith was a mad criminal, and ruled over the city against the law. The legal ruler of Kirkwall is the Viscount – and she prevented the election. WHERE is the neutrality if someone support a criminal? Just stay and watch crimes is not neutrality. It was never. No it doesn't. If you support someone, you are not neutral. No action is not support. It is nothing and nothing can't have any effect. So what is it? If Elthina supported Meredith, she wasn't neutral and in the wrong. If she was neutral, she didn't support anyone - something I really wanted to choose at the end of the game but couldn't so I wouldn't blame anyone else for that. But I take it that the idea in this thread is "she was kinda neutral but not really". I honestly wonder how Elthina should have acted to be considered truly neutral. No. If you are neutral, you don't support someone. There is a difference. But if you're an overseer of some kind of police/army (Elthina appointed Meredith, and the Chantry is the owner/supervisor of the Circles), and also the moral leader of a city – and you knew about abuses, crimes – is NOT neutrality if you allow those crimes just because the criminals are "your" cops and the victims are "just" innocently imprisoned half-citizens... AND if the leader of the cops wants to rule over the city illegally, and at first this person's puppet is the leadership of the city, and when the puppet is dead, this person took the city, and prevents the legal election – you're not neutral if just watch it silently. In this case, you're a pander in the crimes. How she can be really neutral? If ask Meredith back of (not like she did in the pre-Act3 scene, but kick her from her position). If it hard, because she's unleashed (as it was written here, Sebastian said it already...), mad – then to ask an investigation and replacement... In this case, we can say, she was neutral in the mage/templar issues.
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 5, 2020 21:36:20 GMT
No it doesn't. If you support someone, you are not neutral. No action is not support. It is nothing and nothing can't have any effect.
So what is it? If Elthina supported Meredith, she wasn't neutral and in the wrong. If she was neutral, she didn't support anyone - something I really wanted to choose at the end of the game but couldn't so I wouldn't blame anyone else for that.
But I take it that the idea in this thread is "she was kinda neutral but not really".
I honestly wonder how Elthina should have acted to be considered truly neutral. No. If you are neutral, you don't support someone. There is a difference. But if you're an overseer of some kind of police/army (Elthina appointed Meredith, and the Chantry is the owner/supervisor of the Circles), and also the moral leader of a city – and you knew about abuses, crimes – is NOT neutrality if you allow those crimes just because the criminals are "your" cops and the victims are "just" innocently imprisoned half-citizens... AND if the leader of the cops wants to rule over the city illegally, and at first this person's puppet is the leadership of the city, and when the puppet is dead, this person took the city, and prevents the legal election – you're not neutral if just watch it silently. In this case, you're a pander in the crimes. How she can be really neutral? If ask Meredith back of (not like she did in the pre-Act3 scene, but kick her from her position). If it hard, because she's unleashed (as it was written here, Sebastian said it already...), mad – then to ask an investigation and replacement... In this case, we can say, she was neutral in the mage/templar issues. So then in the end, Elthina was not really neutral and the title of this thread should be "was Elthina wrong in supporting Meredith"? As I said, in that case, yes she was. If she asked Meredith to back off, she'd be supporting Orsino/the mages. That's not neutral either. There's two ways to be truly neutral about this, I think: by either not doing anything at all that would benefit either side in some way, or by having both sides thoroughly investigated by a neutral party - which as far as I know doesn't exist in Kirkwall. Even as Hawke, you must pick a side eventually. Again, if she supported Meredith, she definitely did not do the right thing. But then the entire premise of this thread does not apply because that wouldn't be neutrality.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2020 22:08:40 GMT
No. If you are neutral, you don't support someone. There is a difference. But if you're an overseer of some kind of police/army (Elthina appointed Meredith, and the Chantry is the owner/supervisor of the Circles), and also the moral leader of a city – and you knew about abuses, crimes – is NOT neutrality if you allow those crimes just because the criminals are "your" cops and the victims are "just" innocently imprisoned half-citizens... AND if the leader of the cops wants to rule over the city illegally, and at first this person's puppet is the leadership of the city, and when the puppet is dead, this person took the city, and prevents the legal election – you're not neutral if just watch it silently. In this case, you're a pander in the crimes. How she can be really neutral? If ask Meredith back of (not like she did in the pre-Act3 scene, but kick her from her position). If it hard, because she's unleashed (as it was written here, Sebastian said it already...), mad – then to ask an investigation and replacement... In this case, we can say, she was neutral in the mage/templar issues. So then in the end, Elthina was not really neutral and the title of this thread should be "was Elthina wrong in supporting Meredith"? As I said, in that case, yes she was. If she asked Meredith to back off, she'd be supporting Orsino/the mages. That's not neutral either. There's two ways to be truly neutral about this, I think: by either not doing anything at all that would benefit either side in some way, or by having both sides thoroughly investigated by a neutral party - which as far as I know doesn't exist in Kirkwall. Even as Hawke, you must pick a side eventually. Again, if she supported Meredith, she definitely did not do the right thing. But then the entire premise of this thread does not apply because that wouldn't be neutrality. Yes, the title of this thread is wrong without quotation mark. Because she was not neutral – with her "neutrality". Also: the whole "Orsino or Meredith" thing is a big fat bullshit in my eyes. Meredith was not against Orsino, but against the mages + the city. Orsino is not the mages – but Meredith rules over the whole city. The real question is: Meredith or the city and the righteousness. One thing is right: the Circle was Elthina's responsibility: so including Orsino with the mages, and Meredith with the Templars. But if she replaces Meredith because of her crime in the circle + in the city, Orsino and the mages still remain prisoners – only the Kingt-Commaneder changes... But okay, let's play with the suggested thing: her "neutrality" between Meredith and Orsino... and she thinks, they're an equal part of this grotesque "game" and she wants to be neutral... Then it's simple: if she replaces Meredith, she just has to say Orsino: that he shouldn't the First Enchanter anymore, but another mage should take the position. Under Meredith no one took that, but Orsino, his goal was to take care of the mages, somehow prevent the suicidal cases, because of the suicidal was the first cause of deaths here (Orsino's back story, World of Thedas – and Anders was right about it as well.) How it is not neutral? The mages wouldn't resist choosing another one, if not Meredith is the Knight Commander (or someone of her mob... like Karras) I never said it before, because I never saw, how it about Meredith and Orsino. (And I still don't see, how Orsino in this question...)
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Post by Quickpaw on Oct 5, 2020 23:53:40 GMT
"Neutrality" benefits only the aggressor, and silence in the face of atrocities renders you complicit in them.
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