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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 3:52:43 GMT
The B O N E S talk makes me laugh every single time it comes up. Speaking from actual personal experience, there is very little dimorphism in skeletons, the majority of that stuff is just fat. I’ve seen it happen on my own body, and I didn’t start shifting my hormone balance until well after puberty, so zero skeleton changes for me. Yes, some women have extremely wide pelvises. Some guys do too. There are differences on average, but they’re slighter than most folks assume, especially if we focus on athletically built people. Videogames unfortunately skew toward the overly-exaggerated Hollywood vision of what people look like, with bodies optimized more for bodybuilding or modeling than actual exertion. We’re all a chaotic soup of chemicals and receptors that are acting at different levels. The tailoring of clothes is meant to accentuate certain features in women and hide them in men — and vice versa — which makes the differences look more pronounced than they actually are. For example, the same butt will look way rounder in women’s jeans than men’s, because men’s jeans usually have an air gap below the butt to make it look less curvy. Even cues as minor as covering or uncovering my ears make a huge difference in what gender people read me as. Eating more or less food in a meal, without changing my appearance AT ALL, changes whether waiters use “sir” or “ma’am”. I certainly get by just fine without changing my walking animation. This idea of there being this massive dimorphism is, in most cases, pure nonsense. The largest difference in the skeleton between the two sexes is in the pelvis. You're peddling some … interesting nonsense
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 1, 2020 4:16:19 GMT
The B O N E S talk makes me laugh every single time it comes up. Speaking from actual personal experience, there is very little dimorphism in skeletons, the majority of that stuff is just fat. I’ve seen it happen on my own body, and I didn’t start shifting my hormone balance until well after puberty, so zero skeleton changes for me. Yes, some women have extremely wide pelvises. Some guys do too. There are differences on average, but they’re slighter than most folks assume, especially if we focus on athletically built people. Videogames unfortunately skew toward the overly-exaggerated Hollywood vision of what people look like, with bodies optimized more for bodybuilding or modeling than actual exertion. We’re all a chaotic soup of chemicals and receptors that are acting at different levels. The tailoring of clothes is meant to accentuate certain features in women and hide them in men — and vice versa — which makes the differences look more pronounced than they actually are. For example, the same butt will look way rounder in women’s jeans than men’s, because men’s jeans usually have an air gap below the butt to make it look less curvy. Even cues as minor as covering or uncovering my ears make a huge difference in what gender people read me as. Eating more or less food in a meal, without changing my appearance AT ALL, changes whether waiters use “sir” or “ma’am”. I certainly get by just fine without changing my walking animation. This idea of there being this massive dimorphism is, in most cases, pure nonsense. The largest difference in the skeleton between the two sexes is in the pelvis. You're peddling some … interesting nonsense “Largest” doesn’t mean “large”, it just means the other differences (on average) are smaller. There are also differences in the amount of difference depending on genetics. I’ll acknowledge that my family is more on the androgynous side — lucky for me! But there truly is a huge component that’s just tailoring. Visually widening the shoulder area gives an illusion of narrower hips, hiding the natural variation in men’s pelvis size. Conversely, tighter shirts reduce the torso, making even smaller-hipped women look curvier. Again, I’m not saying there’s NO difference (on average), because there is. But it’s not nearly as big as people assume it is.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 1, 2020 4:17:26 GMT
The B O N E S talk makes me laugh every single time it comes up. Speaking from actual personal experience, there is very little dimorphism in skeletons, the majority of that stuff is just fat. I’ve seen it happen on my own body, and I didn’t start shifting my hormone balance until well after puberty, so zero skeleton changes for me. Yes, some women have extremely wide pelvises. Some guys do too. There are differences on average, but they’re slighter than most folks assume, especially if we focus on athletically built people. Videogames unfortunately skew toward the overly-exaggerated Hollywood vision of what people look like, with bodies optimized more for bodybuilding or modeling than actual exertion. We’re all a chaotic soup of chemicals and receptors that are acting at different levels. The tailoring of clothes is meant to accentuate certain features in women and hide them in men — and vice versa — which makes the differences look more pronounced than they actually are. For example, the same butt will look way rounder in women’s jeans than men’s, because men’s jeans usually have an air gap below the butt to make it look less curvy. Even cues as minor as covering or uncovering my ears make a huge difference in what gender people read me as. Eating more or less food in a meal, without changing my appearance AT ALL, changes whether waiters use “sir” or “ma’am”. I certainly get by just fine without changing my walking animation. This idea of there being this massive dimorphism is, in most cases, pure nonsense. I'm not sure many people have argued that there's massive dimorphism - just discernible enough differences, which of course can still be either neutralized or accentuated by a ton of different things that may have little to do with whatever we were born with. Weight and height or flexibility will affect things too. Heck, something as non-physical as personality affect the way we move and walk, never mind what we wear. But as you've pointed out, the videogames have their tendencies and in this regard DAI has a 'standard' male and female body models and typical game male/female walk designed for pretty tall guys with narrow hips and triangular chests and tiny-waisted women with shapely hips and thighs. ...Which is why it looks so hilarious when they pull the incompatible model on same animated skeleton Granted, as I've pointed out above, the female gait doesn't seem to look 'exaggerated' when they give it to Solas in some cinematics - at best it makes him look like a professional dancer, who usually have more limber bodies and graceful movements, but... that's about it. My theory is that the smaller models especially were prone to issues occurring after they crammed them all on one animated frame they've had, which was optimized for human male - hence some flubs in models different than it. But - like I said before - since animations and how they're being done is different now compared to 5 years ago, and DA4 has assets from DAI and all other more recent BW/Frostbite games to play with, they're probably going to tinker with that and fix some issues, at least to a degree it can be done in a huge RPG game containing different humanoid models with different proportions or heights, entirely irregardless of whether they're going to give us an option to play those races.
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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 4:25:06 GMT
The largest difference in the skeleton between the two sexes is in the pelvis. You're peddling some … interesting nonsense “Largest” doesn’t mean “large”, it just means the other differences (on average) are smaller. There are also differences in the amount of difference depending on genetics. I’ll acknowledge that my family is more on the androgynous side — lucky for me! But there truly is a huge component that’s just tailoring. Visually widening the shoulder area gives an illusion of narrower hips, hiding the natural variation in men’s pelvis size. Conversely, tighter shirts reduce the torso, making even smaller-hipped women look curvier. Again, I’m not saying there’s NO difference (on average), because there is. But it’s not nearly as big as people assume it is. It's large enough to make a difference in the way the sexes walk, which is what was being discussed.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Feb 1, 2020 4:28:02 GMT
I do mean 'runway walk' in this sense too. In fact, even with thighs growing thicker and affecting my gait to a degree I find it hard to change how I walk in order to somewhat accommodate for it. That means a lot of ruined inseams in favorite pants and so on Maybe you were a supermodel in a past life, then.
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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 4:43:06 GMT
*Sigh* I should have pasted this above but I'm watching the Lakers game atm (Kobe ) so my bad Females walk in more anterior pelvic tilt, and have greater excursion in pelvic obliquity, and slightly greater pelvic rotation while males maintain the pelvis closer to neutral tilt, and have less pelvic obliquity and rotation excursion.source: anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.23552Women's hips rotate more but Hollywood exaggerates it.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 1, 2020 4:43:11 GMT
“Largest” doesn’t mean “large”, it just means the other differences (on average) are smaller. There are also differences in the amount of difference depending on genetics. I’ll acknowledge that my family is more on the androgynous side — lucky for me! But there truly is a huge component that’s just tailoring. Visually widening the shoulder area gives an illusion of narrower hips, hiding the natural variation in men’s pelvis size. Conversely, tighter shirts reduce the torso, making even smaller-hipped women look curvier. Again, I’m not saying there’s NO difference (on average), because there is. But it’s not nearly as big as people assume it is. It's large enough to make a difference in the way the sexes walk, which is what was being discussed. And what I’m saying is that I can switch between being called “sir” and being called “ma’am” without changing my own walking animation, so there’s clearly a zone where the walk styles overlap. The problem only arises when animators make the “generic” animation super exaggerated in one direction.
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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 4:44:41 GMT
It's large enough to make a difference in the way the sexes walk, which is what was being discussed. And what I’m saying is that I can switch between being called “sir” and being called “ma’am” without changing my own walking animation, so there’s clearly a zone where the walk styles overlap. The problem only arises when animators make the “generic” animation super exaggerated in one direction. People don't usually watch people's arses when they walk. I pasted evidence of increased pelvic rotation above
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 1, 2020 4:45:16 GMT
The pc having a walk I don't like is not a dealbreaker for me. It just bothers me more than other animation issues because you spend much of the game seeing the pc walking or running. Also, for a runway walk, I didn't mean the size of the hips. I meant how the feet are placed in front of each other when walking rather than parallel to each other. I do mean 'runway walk' in this sense too. In fact, even with thighs growing thicker and affecting my gait to a degree I find it hard to change how I walk in order to somewhat accommodate for it. That means a lot of ruined inseams in favorite pants and so on Hence, I don't find the walk to be 'runway', even if I understand it's not reality for all. However, it can't be that exaggerated... because I don't think many people noticed that they occasionally give female gait to Solas in some cinematics I'm not joking - did anyone else here notice this too? This, for example: Is the same as this, save the hand gesture: Or in Trespasser. Yyyyup. This isn't mocapped, it's in-game female gait, just with arms crossed behind. Just a funny observation, if we're getting this far into detail. They intentionally give it to him when they want to give us a peek at his ancient ellfiness/Fen'Harelness. His walk is straighter and more graceful, but he simply doesn't have hips and thighs to visually underline the gait or feet making close steps with. It's a thing that should probably be mentioned a little more often given the context of discussion: that the body models they give us will also have an effect on the gait it was paired with, which is one of reasons why male gait on female looks so funny when put on models they haven't been designed for (I think the biggest issue here is that the male-model based animations is just incompatible proportion-wise with smaller frames of some models, hence diaper walk in women or poor broken arms of shorter and lankier elf males), or why the sway may seem too pronounced on females for some others, given the standard pretty hourglass shape, especially of human model. Different proportions will simply have a different visual effect, entirely aside from internal anatomy or something. It's also true that DAI fashion tends to skew towards skin-tight, and this has a visual effect too.
As mentioned up post, this topic on walking was discussed to death in the old BSN. ... with similar viewpoints.
Regardless, Bio won't spend too much time on movement mechanic animations. The studio will spend its energies with monetization, core design and main plot issues because that is what sells. Mocap is expensive even with EA having a MOCAP studio available for its studios. So, the only reason to use it is to mocap special animation movement that is not in the libraries of which there are plenty of them..... but not necessarily suitable.
For example: unsuitable from
.. sport libraries ( basketball , soccer) -- war libraries (battlefield, idle animation in BF 4 in the elevator...) ... just look at youtube vids and watch soldier movements.
While the library may be large, the mocap for a tanky armoured NPC with sword and shield is nowhere to be found in the BF series, the sports series.... let alone the fighting sequences. Besides, cost reduction means using the "old libraries" from DA:I, even if it breaks immersion. Don't be surprised to see a Cassandra runway walk... which I liked... it gave her the femininity she needed.
Yes, CFO Blake mentioned EA is creating games that will ".. blow your minds..." by exploiting the power of the new hdw. That means Mocapping everything new with the higher resolution textures. The smart money says take these marketing phrases, from senior EA execs full of GaaS, with Sea salt.
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Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 1, 2020 5:03:03 GMT
I do mean 'runway walk' in this sense too. In fact, even with thighs growing thicker and affecting my gait to a degree I find it hard to change how I walk in order to somewhat accommodate for it. That means a lot of ruined inseams in favorite pants and so on Maybe you were a supermodel in a past life, then. I got the short end of the stick in this life then I think it may be because I like to make long steps and putting feet closer to center after each step results with just that. Anyway, if you look at girls on runways they not only often walk on high heels (which obviously affects the gait), but their steps are pretty long and their back straightened (if back is straight one usually has compensate for it with more flex in lower back, which also affects how things move below). So it's not as much a runway walk, but that they need to make long steps with straight back for better exposition of the garment and projection of confidence. So, if a person with wide hips, especially one with quite wide hips, wants to make longer/faster steps and not slouch wile walking, this type of gait will more or less happen, even if not to such exaggerated fashion as it can on runways.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 1, 2020 8:40:03 GMT
People don't usually watch people's arses when they walk. Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho.
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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 9:00:18 GMT
People don't usually watch people's arses when they walk. Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho.
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Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 1, 2020 17:31:07 GMT
People don't usually watch people's arses when they walk. Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho. Maybe the solution should be making everyone racewalk
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Post by river82 on Feb 1, 2020 20:17:37 GMT
Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho. Maybe the solution should be making everyone racewalk Please no
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 2, 2020 11:20:14 GMT
People don't usually watch people's arses when they walk. Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho.
If DA4 is a true RPG, then for immersion purposes, the studio must mocap all characters with movements for: 1. When wearing their respective gear setup = armour+shield, archer, mage, assassin. etc 2. When walking, running jumping, combat for each individual class. 3. Oh, yes,.. and when idling. Somehow, Bio has a hard time getting this right.
Bio will probably select female poses / walking to appeal to the teenage group with appropriate skins. Cassandra walk up posted as an example or even something like the Shadowgun War Gameslink teaser art.
Let's face it. The goal is to sell.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 2, 2020 16:36:52 GMT
Maybe the solution should be making everyone racewalk Please no Aw come on - can't you see our party racewalking through zones to chase the dragon or stopping apocalypse? I mean... it can always be jester or drunk personality from ESO
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 2, 2020 20:46:12 GMT
You know, Tevinter Magiocracy supports slavery and I believe elves are the easiest class to keep as slaves.
Imagine, if you will, choosing an elf protagonist. I believe this won't bode well for our intrepid hero/ine. Plot points like assassination or capture the upstart come to mind.
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trevelyanshep
N1
Blah blah blah
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
PSN: thekrakenshelby
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Post by trevelyanshep on Feb 2, 2020 23:48:11 GMT
Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho. Maybe the solution should be making everyone racewalk Yes, yes to all of this.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 3, 2020 1:17:44 GMT
Watch em enough to notice when fictional ladies walk wrong, tho.
If DA4 is a true RPG, then for immersion purposes, the studio must mocap all characters with movements for: 1. When wearing their respective gear setup = armour+shield, archer, mage, assassin. etc 2. When walking, running jumping, combat for each individual class. 3. Oh, yes,.. and when idling. Somehow, Bio has a hard time getting this right.
Bio will probably select female poses / walking to appeal to the teenage group with appropriate skins. Cassandra walk up posted as an example or even something like the Shadowgun War Gameslink teaser art.
Let's face it. The goal is to sell.
I'm really struggling to parse this rambling nonsense, but if I understand you correctly, every previous game that didn't use mocap for literally every single thing wasn't a "true" rpg? Games can't sell without sexy lady walks? According to Business Insider, these are the top 10 best-selling vdeogames of 2019, and not only do sexy lady struts not appear to be central features, nor, I suspect, did most of these games rely on mocap for animations. Super Smash Bros certainly didn't. Also, seeing as how Anthem apparently just barely scraped into the top 10, I personally would be hesitant to argue the "sales" angle at all. What tends to "sell" are the games that most people posting in here don't seem to like.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 3, 2020 20:37:17 GMT
I doubt most people even care that much. So long as no one is sauntering along like Jar Jar Binx, it barely registers. I'm pretty sure walk animation is a problem long behind us.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Feb 6, 2020 9:39:01 GMT
Check out the hip-sway on Jeter. Apparently it has something to do with the pelvic structure forcing women to all that swaying.
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 9, 2020 17:23:24 GMT
I think the biggest fear is for BioWare to cutback on other races like in DA2. Male and Female MC options are so integral in BioWare RPGs that cutting them out would be like cutting out the dialogue trees.
EDIT: You guys are really debating hip sway and pelvic muscles? Christ, it's like 2013 all over again.
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Post by river82 on Feb 9, 2020 19:54:46 GMT
I think the biggest fear is for BioWare to cutback on other races like in DA2. Male and Female MC options are so integral in BioWare RPGs that cutting them out would be like cutting out the dialogue trees.
EDIT: You guys are really debating hip sway and pelvic muscles? Christ, it's like 2013 all over again.
Pelvic bone structure, not pelvis muscles. And the science is clear so it's no longer much of a debate.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Feb 10, 2020 7:17:40 GMT
I think the biggest fear is for BioWare to cutback on other races like in DA2. Male and Female MC options are so integral in BioWare RPGs that cutting them out would be like cutting out the dialogue trees.
EDIT: You guys are really debating hip sway and pelvic muscles? Christ, it's like 2013 all over again.
Nah, to anyone with at least half-a-brain and some scientific training it is obvious that there is nothing in the pelvic structure forcing women to sway their hips.
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Post by river82 on Feb 10, 2020 7:21:47 GMT
I think the biggest fear is for BioWare to cutback on other races like in DA2. Male and Female MC options are so integral in BioWare RPGs that cutting them out would be like cutting out the dialogue trees.
EDIT: You guys are really debating hip sway and pelvic muscles? Christ, it's like 2013 all over again.
Nah, to anyone with at least half-a-brain and some scientific training it is obvious that there is nothing in the pelvic structure forcing women to sway their hips. The science is clear. The pelvic structure of a woman will mean increased pelvic rotation which results in increased hip sway. You are incorrect. Also don't parade opinions and observations you make as scientific fact. This is the sort of rubbish anti-vaccine nutjobs do. If you want to say that science is on your side then I expect to see peer reviewed papers in your posts similar to what I have linked (The paper I linked was published in The Anatomical Record Volume 300 Issue 4, a peer reviewed scientific journal covering anatomy). I'll be interested to see the literature which informs your opinion
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