Solas: "I have joined my share of Causes"

The next cause I think he was involved with was that of Shartan. This is more controversial and I would formerly have objected strenuously to it but the evidence seems to point that way. I'm not saying that Solas was Shartan but that he was influencing and helping him via the Fade, thus joining and supporting his cause.

Since the southern Chantry expunged most records of him at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales and Tevinter likely did so even before Hessarian converted to Andrastrianism, it has been difficult for scholars to find evidence of Shartan as an individual but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t born in that era rather than being an ancient elf who just appeared among them. What we do know is that he was an actual person since the HoF met his spirit in the Gauntlet. Also even the Chant of Light acknowledges that he tried to save Andraste, so even if there were several “Shartans” one of them did this. Still, I think the better explanation for him being able to lead the rebellion almost simultaneously in several locations, miles apart, was that he was using the eluvian network, which is the first pointer he was being influenced by and receiving help from Solas.

The second indicator is his stated beliefs. Interestingly we get these right back in DAO. First there are Gisharel’s words in connection with the Long Walk:

“It was Shartan’s dream that one day we would have our own homeland, where we could live as we chose. After the long struggle that claimed the lives of many, even Shartan himself, we were granted the Dales.” Note that Shartan wanted people in the homeland to live as they chose. There is no suggestion that he wanted them to recover their ancient culture or worship their own gods, simply live as they chose. Coming from the mouth of a Dalish Keeper that makes me think it is authentic rather than Dalish propaganda.

Then there are the words of the spirit of Shartan in the Gauntlet.
“It was my dream for the people to have a homeland of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves”. At the time it is easy to assume he simply means away from human domination. However, given what we now know, the set up in Tevinter or any human empire wasn’t so different from that of Arlathan, particularly with a ruling elite who feel they get their right to rule directly from their god or gods by reason of their birth. I was always surprised to discover that the Dalish claimed descent from the nobility of the Dales since why would they have nobles as distinct from just leading citizens? Then I read that they were actually claiming the nobility traced their legitimacy to Arlathan and it all started to fall into place why they were so devoted to the gods. I think that was never Shartan’s intent. There would be no masters, no nobility lording over others. Each elf would be their own master. In which case his words: “She was betrayed and so were we” may take on a whole new significance as he wasn’t referring to the humans at all.

He also said: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste against the Imperium.”
That doesn’t suggest that he was a disciple or acolyte of Andraste, just an alliance of expediency, with certain promises extracted from the barbarians as a condition of his support. This is actually borne out by the Canticle of Shartan. When Andraste declares that :
“Truly, the Maker has called you, just as He called me, to be a Light for your People,” and goes on to say that they will bear His will northwards to the gates of Minrathous and set all slaves free, Shartan responds:
“The People will set ourselves free. Your host from the South may march alongside us.”

Bear in mind how Andraste’s acknowledgement of Shartan as her equal and his words to her, that fly in the face of Chantry dogma about him being her disciple and she the sole chosen of the Maker, I think this is an indication that Justinia’s scribes thought the elven account authentic enough that they dared not change anything in it for fear of offending them. Justinia did not bother to include Shartan in her initial Chant of Light but then approached the elves for their account at a time when relations between Drakon and the Dales were becoming a little less cordial and he clearly wanted to get them on side. Hence the Divine leaving the narrative unaltered.

Everything seems to point to Shartan starting a rebellion in order to free his people, quite possibly using the unrest caused by Andraste’s activities in the south, and then forging an alliance in order to get the promise of a homeland in the south for his people once they had gained their freedom. It took nine years from the start of the Exalted March until the Battle of the Valarian Fields, so it wasn’t something achieved overnight. However, the reason this rebellion was successful where previous slave revolts had failed was that he was able to co-ordinate their activities to achieve the maximum damage. Whilst it is possible that a number of separate slave leaders could have achieved some degree of co-operative action, I still believe it was one leader using the eluvians to get around.

Shartan didn’t live to see his Promised Land and this was unfortunate because his full vision for his people wasn’t realised. Instead those claiming nobility among the elves and having a devotion to the gods were the ones who over time gained control of the Dales, until eventually their isolationist attitudes and insistence on adhering to the old ways, including attacking all outsiders, led to them losing it. Then they fled the aftermath, leaving the commoner elves to be herded up and placed in the alienages, effectively slaves once more in the way they are treated if not in name.

It is possible that Solas was involved again at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales and quite possibly the Dales were lost because his advice was ignored. This would make him particularly sore with the Dalish who claim to descend from the leaders at that time. The evidence I have for this is that Imshael said the last time the eluvian network was used was at that time and that it was finally shut down when the elves lost Halamshiral. So that would be another cause he was involved in.

What do you think?

I knew that. I was just suggesting that might have been a cause he committed himself to before his rebellion. I don't think theoretical beliefs are what he was talking about, although I suppose another cause could have been the treatment of spirits, assuming that the ancient elves did misuse them. However, it is not clear if spirits were the same in ancient times. Powerful demons, like Imshael, who actually insists on being called a spirit, were considered traitors by Elgar'nan for abandoning the People during their fight with the Earth (so probably the Titans), which suggests that when they still had "form" they were regarded as being of the same race.

In any case, where did Solas state that demons can transition to spirits if your mind is right? I don't recall that conversation either. He said demons are the result of a corrupted emotion or alternatively being forced to do something against their nature. Freeing his friend from the binding placed on her allowed her to revert and it would seem that Cole went from Compassion spirit to a demon (of mercilessness?) and then back again but they seemed to do that of their own volition rather than the result of someone else's emotion.

As I say above, though, in ancient times the elves did seem to respect those who could impart wisdom from the Fade. They might debate the ideas put forward but I don't think they would reject them out of hand. Fen'Harel was renowned for imparting dark wisdom and if Felassan's story is to be believed, they actively sought him out to get it.

So do you think he was just bearing a grudge from ancient times and not about more recent causes that he tried to get involve in?

I think his share of causes could actually go back to the time before the veil, to his title Fen'harel which means deceiver/liar wolf.
Liar, fool, madman, there are endless ways to say someone isn’t worth listening to.

He says this name was actually given to him as an insult. Why would it be an insult if not for the reason he was in fact telling the truth?

And ultimately, what was he deified for? If his title really means deceiver wolf why did it become synonymous with dread? Could he have been the dread wolf even before his rebellion began? (there's not a lot to go on but I sure hope we get more answers to this question in the next game).

The events that shaped the elven empire included the endless war with the forgotten ones or the control/use of dragon's blood when dragons ruled the skies. No doubt he had something to do with these battles, especially since he himself says he's seen war and the effects of it. If he originated as a spirit of wisdom and was denied the chance to impart wisdom to others, perhaps that is what turned him into simply the "dread wolf"?

I think about the treachery of the wolf codex a lot because it implies the Solas schtick has been done already, before the veil was even a thing...

The pages of this book-memory?-warn of a terrible danger, a wolf with slavering black jaws and pits for eyes. The Evanuris-the elven gods-stand in a ring around it, as if preventing it from attacking.

"Beware the forms of Fen'Harel! The Dread Wolf comes in humble guises, a wanderer who knows much of the People and their spirits. He will offer advice that seems fair, but turns slowly to poison. Remember the price of treason, and keep in your heart the mercy of your gods."




I'm inclined to agree because I never felt like Felassan's meeting with Briala was simply by chance. If Solas' plans stretches back that far though, you have to wonder if Flemeth was also scheming with him at the time, and that his how she knew change to the world was inevitable. Are their goals still aligned though, if they have in fact been scheming all of this together?



This is certainly a convincing enough possibility for me to believe Shartan was also an agent of Solas'.

Solas does say he's "observed too much and done too little", I assume with regards to the veil divided world. But I still wonder when did he realise the blight was the biggest threat to the world? Was the blight simply a side effect of the veil or something he thought would never be a problem after the veil was created?

Considering he knows his people don't die so easily I have a hard time believing he didn't conspire with Mythal prior to the events of DAI. Maybe he was more surprised at the fact the Well of Sorrows was still preserved, which is essentially her cumulative will. We also don't yet know Mythal's full form as it is implied she is something "more" than we have yet to encounter. Perhaps the well is the key to restoring her to her full power? Meaning the well drinker will likely have a pretty important role to play soon.



The lyrium idol was so out of left field to me. Can the discovery of the idol be attributed to Flemeth who saved Hawke, or was it really all just coincidence that Hawke teamed up with Varric who knew Bartrand who led them to the thaig? I suppose we'll find out it's actual purpose in the next game but to find out it was Solas' and that it was sentimental was very surprising. Deus ex machina or planned all along? It's one of the biggest mysteries to me.

This is what I love about the series though, everything can always be left up to divine intervention or chance. Either way it can make sense. Over-analysing the circumstances is also fun though.

That what I thought too The whole thing is just weird.



The timing of everything is what's making it all so confusing...because as you said, if the idol is so important to his current plans why leave it lying around instead of I dunno, magically hiding it. Perhaps he never thought anyone would find the thaig but even still, to leave it lying around like that for someone to just pick up?

Maybe he never thought he would need to fall back to the idol because he still had the orb and it had built up a lot of power after his slumber (he just needed to unlock it and it seems like he was just impatient so he gave it to Corypheus instead). And when did he learn of this idol anyway? Was it during his time in the Inquisition from Varric or even earlier? Possibly earlier if he was already consulting with Mythal but it's hard to know for certain...

The fact that the idol is tainted implies it's a last resort, given the fact the blight actually seems to scare him. Maybe he was pinning all his hopes on his orb because that was magic that can actually counter blight magic/the evanuris. When it was destroyed, Leliana's note does say Solas was extremely "distraught" after the fight with Corypheus so I'm guessing the orb was his last hope at carrying out his plans without going on his dinan shiral.

By the way, do you find it annoying that Solas is always allowed to control the conversation? I realise that if the Inquisitor pushed him for more than he is willing to give, he might answer with a negative, like he does in Trespasser, but so often I feel the if I had been in the situation I would have pushed him further, particularly when he was still in the Inquisition. For example:

Solas: ........ I suppose I am just tired of fighting.
Inquisitor: What do you mean you are tired of fighting? Fighting what?
Solas: Do you think I honed my magical skills just to impress spirits? I have joined my share of causes. But when I offered lessons learned in the Fade, I was derided by my enemies … and sometimes by my allies. Liar, fool, madman, there are endless ways to say someone isn’t worth listening to. Over time it grinds away at you.

Inquisitor: That is when you should lean on your friends. (Hasn't he just said his allies derided him?)
Or Inquisitor: If you are tired of losing, you might consider winning. (He said he was tired of fighting. You asked fighting what? He didn't actually answer you and yet you come up with this trite sort of response)
Or Inquisitor: If you stop fighting, they win. (Very inspirational but he still didn't answer your original question.)

Yet what they don't do is ask: "So what causes went so badly for you?"

After the Arbor Wilds: "Why does Abelas recognise you as an elvhen and not me?"
After meeting with Mythal: "What do you make of that?" "How did you know that old ritual was said perfectly?" "Remember what you said in the Temple about 'Mythal lives'. Did you know she was alive? Was that why you didn't want to drink?"

Then in Trespasser he gives three different justifications for raising the Veil? So which is it? If the alternative was the Evanuris destroying the world, how were they going to do that? If he knew it was not possible to kill them permanently because they had the secret of effective immortality, then how did they kill Mythal? He said their lust for power caused them to do this, so what was the nature of this power? How do you know it was all of them?

Those things did run through my mind at the time, in the case of DAI even before I knew he was the Dread Wolf. I had so many questions that I never got answers to.

Solas contradicts his own statements within the space of a few exchanges and yet the Inquisitor doesn't call him out on it. That is what is so infuriating. I get they are telling a story but why have him say anything at all if you then need to have the protagonist stand there like an idiot and not say anything?  If there was more to it than just revenge in the past, then explain how they were going to destroy the word.   If there is more to it now than just wanting things back as they were, for example the Blight and red lyrium, then tell us so.    His efforts at saving the world didn't end up as he hoped in the past, so why is he so confident that it will end up any better now.  Talk to me Solas, help me understand.

I've also mentioned on the other thread how Solas attitude has started to remind me of another antagonist.

"I am your salvation through destruction." At least Sovereign had the excuse that it was a soulless machine, programmed to operate in a certain way and not possible to be reasoned with.

Solas maintains that he is not a god, so he should stop acting like one.

The idols recovery might not be a happenstance. Bartrand presumably bought the location of an abandoned thaig for his expedition from a scavenger or explorer. What if said persons motivation was not money, but instead to get someone else to enter the thaig and take the corrupted idol to the surface.

Perhaps they were Solas's agent, but there are also those Forgotten Ones worshipers in the Tirashen, enclaves of ancient elves who still worship the Evanuris, or since it's a Dwarven thaig... We already had the sha brytol, who knows what other weird ancient dwarf cults are out there with what motivations, theres certainly evidence of creator worship in the deeproads.

If someone wanted that thing out of there they just had to keep shopping around until they found someone willing to risk a trip through the deeproads for treasure/salvage.

I think we're beginning to sound like GoT fans after season 8 - trying to make sense of what is ultimately bad writing.

So many conflicting and contradictory explanations.  Also, about the idol, wasn't it destroyed on Meredith's orders to craft her sword?