inherit
424
0
Feb 21, 2024 22:47:00 GMT
5,963
Andrew Waples
3,875
August 2016
andrewwaples1
eaglefan129
|
Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 6, 2020 19:39:17 GMT
So, if you bring Varric and Iron Bull enough times, Bull will talk about Varric's books. I'm gonna paraphrase a bit, but Varric is like "I like villians who don't know there villians." They don't know what there doing is having a negative impact." Yeah, that describes Solas to a T.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 6, 2020 20:52:07 GMT
I don't say this to be an asshole, or be one of those people -- I would want to be corrected in the same way. It's "they're": "who don't know they're [they are]" and, "what they're [they are] doing." "There" is for location: "Let's go over there." "Their" is possessive: "Their dog is cute." "They're all over there playing with their ball." --- At any rate, I disagree about the banter. His Trespasser dialogue shows that he knows exactly what he's doing, but is choosing his current path because he believes it to be the best one. It seems to me that Solas believes his raising of the Veil was ultimately a bad choice and is seeking to correct that choice, no matter the cost. He's also pretty clear that he doesn't see modern beings -- humans, dwarves, qunari, and elves -- as being on the same level of sentience as he (and other ancient elves?), in the same way that humans look at an ant, or perhaps more generously, a chimp. In addition, if he was unaware of the impact of his choices, then he wouldn't bother to mislead the PC and the Inquisition.
[edit] Part of what makes Solas compelling for some people is that he does have that awareness, and feels bad about it, but that feeling is second to his greater goal.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 23:01:19 GMT
Solas literally tells you to your face that he's planning genocide.
|
|
grallon
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
Posts: 229 Likes: 428
inherit
340
0
428
grallon
229
August 2016
grallon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
|
Post by grallon on Aug 7, 2020 1:47:52 GMT
... At any rate, I disagree about the banter. His Trespasser dialogue shows that he knows exactly what he's doing, but is choosing his current path because he believes it to be the best one. It seems to me that Solas believes his raising of the Veil was ultimately a bad choice and is seeking to correct that choice, no matter the cost.
That's exactly the problem with him. He goes ahead, compounding his mistakes by trying to fix them with more mistakes; because ultimately, he always assumes he is right. The very definition of prideful blindness.
Unless the overarching narrative is completely changed by the replacement of the lead writers, I do believe they're setting him up for self sacrifice.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 7, 2020 3:24:24 GMT
Unless the overarching narrative is completely changed by the replacement of the lead writers, I do believe they're setting him up for self sacrifice. Considering that Patrick Weekes wrote Solas, as was lead on Trespasser, I don't see that alone as impacting the narrative. Now, Mike Laidlaw was creative director, who is also gone, and any number of other forces could impact the game's story path from what was originally intended when DAI was split in half.
[edit] Narrative director is now John Epler so I don't imagine the overall vision has changed overmuch due to that switch.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2020 7:46:29 GMT
"I like villians who don't know there villians."
To be honest most villains don't seem themselves as villains. So far as they are concerned they are the hero in their own story. Even though their motives may be purely selfish, they try to justify the action to themselves as doing something admirable.
Take Corypheus. When he went to the Golden City, according to memories of his servant, he did this so that he could impress people into resuming their worship of the Old Gods. (For the purpose of this argument, please ignore the fact that actually Old God worship was at its height then). Of course it would result in greater power and glory for himself but he made that his justification in his own mind. Then when we encounter him he claims to be trying to restore the glory of the ancient Imperium by making himself a god. In fact he is still trying to influence worship because he makes the point that all other gods are false. They are absent from the seat of divine power. So he is helping people to see that and offering them a proper god who can actually respond to their entreaties.
The Venatori largely do this as well so far as restoring the glory days of the Imperium are concerned. Naturally that will put them at the head of affairs but they invariably do not admit that as their prime motive and is certainly not the argument they use in trying to persuade others to their cause. They are doing it for the sake of the Imperium. They may well be aware that many of their actions may be perceived by others as reprehensible but they continue to do them for the sake of the Imperium. So far as they are concern they are the heroes and everyone against them are the villains.
Solas is exactly the same. He knows what he plans is terrible and others may see him as a monster but he is still going ahead with it because it will restore the world of the elves and save his people and as he now also claims, save the world (but not as we know it). I think part of his gripe with the Dalish is that they have painted him as the villain in their stories when what he did before was "for the sake of the people" and "to save the world." He hasn't changed his tune at all. In his mind he is the tragic hero, sacrificing himself for the sake of the his people and the world.
Of course his true motivation in the past was revenge on the Evanuris for killing Mythal. That was his prime motivation and what made him forge ahead without considering the consequences. Considering how much he dislikes them and now wants to reverse them, clearly had he thought things through beforehand, he might have anticipated them and not gone ahead. This time round he can't live with the guilt of the effect his previous actions had on the elves. He thinks the world now is worse than the one he destroyed. So he is going to change things back to the sort of world he wants regardless of the consequences for others. Once again, it is purely selfish and as a result he probably hasn't thought through the likely outcome of his action, so if he succeeds it very likely won't have the results he wanted. This is because he refuses to involve others in the decision making process. If he had before and if he did now, they could likely point out the flaws in his plan. The Inquisitor already did highlight one, the Evanuris will be free again, so isn't that a bad thing? Solas had "plans" to deal with this when he still had his orb. Heaven knows if he still has one but since he won't involve anyone else, likely it is a really bad one.
"Do you think I honed my magical skills just to impress spirits? I have joined my share of causes. But when I offered lessons learned in the Fade, I was derided by my enemies … and sometimes by my allies. Liar, fool, madman, there are endless ways to say someone isn’t worth listening to." On the other hand, Solas, may be they were right. So far as Solas is concerned, though, everyone who refuses to listen to him is the villain because he is the hero.
You see, Solas controlled that conversation with the Inquisitor. He claims he did it in a moment of weakness, that he wanted to give people the chance to enjoy a bit of peace before he pulled the plug on them. Which is ridiculous because if he really wanted them to enjoy a bit of peace, he should have kept quiet about it. Very few people when told "you are all going to die", react by thinking "then let's eat, drink and be merry" simply accepting the inevitable. Particularly if they are people who were part of the Inquisition, they are going to go down fighting. People use this as evidence that Solas wants to be stopped. Well may be that is true but I think it far more likely that he wants to be justified in his own mind.
So far as he is concerned he is the hero in his own story. He is going to save the elven people, restore the world of the elves, and was good enough to let all those who are not going to share in his utopia have the opportunity to enjoy themselves before they are wiped out. So he very much fits Varric's definition of a villain who doesn't know he is a villain but apart from the odd psychopath who simply enjoys killing and maiming, that is true of most villains. Even the Nazis considered themselves heroes.
As for his "wisdom" he clearly doesn't have any idea how heroes react to potential annihilation. May be elves roll over and die, but humans remain defiant, as these words from the President in Independence Day illustrate. I wish we could have said something more like this to Solas:
“We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live on. We're going to survive."
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2020 6:15:46 GMT
Well nobody outside of Saturday morning cartoons refers to themselves as "evil".
Not that there's anything wrong with Saturday morning cartoons. I would love a game that uses that aesthetic.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2020 16:14:17 GMT
To be fair, if someone has played D&D then actually they may be familiar with villains that identify themselves as evil. They worship evil gods and try to promote their agenda. So long as they do this the evil god will support them. It was a real pain in Baldurs Gate when companions wouldn't stay with you because you weren't "evil" enough.
Thankfully Dragon Age moved away from this. I know some people still like to play as evil arseholes and companions may voice their disapproval if you do but on the whole companions are more nuanced in their approach. As for antagonists, I think the only one that actually saw themselves as evil, if you can call it that, was the Arch-demon. However, since we were never made party to its innermost thoughts, may be it saw itself as a hero too.
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
Apr 28, 2024 22:17:29 GMT
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Aug 8, 2020 21:48:21 GMT
I think the only setting I've ever encountered where it actually makes serious genuine sense to be "Evil for the sake of Evil" (IE stupid evil) outside of cartoons anyway is Star Wars.
Hear me out: the reason your average Sith is so much more powerful in almost every respect (aside from the brutality of their training regimine) is because the two sides of the Force reward choice and action almost more than training, discipline, and experience. The more Evil(tm) things you do, the stronger your connection to the Dark Side grows. And vice versa for the Light. So it is in the best interests of a Sith or Dark Sider to do Evil(tm) because it literally makes them stronger.
Sorry, didn't mean to tangent. As for Solas what makes him interesting is that while he does know what he's doing is evil (in the Dragon Age setting sense) he also sees it as the least possible evil thing he could do to fix his "mistake." Obviously he's coming from it at the wrong angle and can't understand any other possibility, but he himself says: "Because I am not a monster." He believes (falsely) that what he's doing is right and the best thing that could be done, no matter how horrific it actually is.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2020 7:47:05 GMT
"I am your salvation through destruction." Now where have we heard that one before?
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Aug 13, 2020 13:07:24 GMT
i would say it apply to meredith and loghain as well.
|
|
inherit
11087
0
Sept 24, 2020 2:40:17 GMT
23
Cleric
8
Mar 12, 2019 13:57:29 GMT
March 2019
cleric
|
Post by Cleric on Aug 17, 2020 3:23:23 GMT
I love Solas' banters with Vivienne for this! "You enjoy seeing yourself as a villain?/No more than any other clever man who wonders what he could do if pushed." "S: It is all pageantry, Enchanter./V: Isn't everything?"
Solas implies Vivienne would make for a good Evanuris and Vivienne outright says he sounds like a pride demon. Be still my heart!
...Um, but for what my opinion's worth, the Bioware character Solas has by far the most in common with is Revan. "Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
Very reminiscent of Fen'harel - who is of both and neither Creators and the Forgotten Ones.
Or the duality of a giant all-caps pride demon dragon-wolf leading an army of Justice and Valour Spirits and elven guerilla revolutionaries to overthrow a slave empire/mindwiping theocracy - & then bring about the firey all-destroying apocalypse.
Or just the duality between Solas and Fen'Harel.
Plus, if I have the timeline right, hashing out the broad strokes of DA's lore and overall story was Gaider's first project after working on KOTOR.
It's hard to argue whether or not Revan's and Solas' actions are genuinely necessary for the greater good, the only possible option, if every alternative was worse etc etc. They think so. But their fundamentally egocentric and monomaniacal personalities ensure that no alternatives outside of what occurs to them are floated. They're both lonely, ruthless, distrustful manipulators who don't give others the knowledge or opportunity to try and find a better solution.
Illidan from Warcraft is also like this... I've always loved this very silly 21st century pop fantasy archetype. Angsty self-aware wizards who knowingly leave everyone behind to become a villain to destroy their world to save it - literally transforming into a monster in the process. 🌚
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 29, 2024 16:16:48 GMT
30,247
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 5:49:00 GMT
Cleric How dare you compare Revan to that piece of scum Solas.
|
|
inherit
11087
0
Sept 24, 2020 2:40:17 GMT
23
Cleric
8
Mar 12, 2019 13:57:29 GMT
March 2019
cleric
|
Post by Cleric on Aug 17, 2020 7:18:57 GMT
Cleric How dare you compare Revan to that piece of scum Solas. It's not perfect. Solas is far more complex, more prone to error, and less romanticised than Revan. (He's still very romanticised though, lol.) It occurred to me pretty early on, because I love Revan and characters like Revan and can recognise when one is being put on my plate. But it's also not a unique observation. Mary Kirby actually has tweeted jokingly about this a few times! "I've told you that I think Revan and Solas are basically twins separated at birth, right?" (her thread below makes her case for it 🤗)
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 29, 2024 16:16:48 GMT
30,247
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 7:38:23 GMT
Cleric How dare you compare Revan to that piece of scum Solas. It's not perfect. Solas is far more complex, more prone to error, and less romanticised than Revan. (He's still very romanticised though, lol.) It occurred to me pretty early on, because I love Revan and characters like Revan and can recognise when one is being put on my plate. But it's also not a unique observation. Mary Kirby actually has tweeted jokingly about this a few times! "I've told you that I think Revan and Solas are basically twins separated at birth, right?" (her thread below makes her case for it 🤗) Oh, you’re talking of that thing that deluded itself into thinking it is Revan in SWTOR. I don’t consider that Revan. That game ruined both them and the Exile. Similar to how DAI ruined Hawks, except even more so.
|
|
inherit
11087
0
Sept 24, 2020 2:40:17 GMT
23
Cleric
8
Mar 12, 2019 13:57:29 GMT
March 2019
cleric
|
Post by Cleric on Aug 17, 2020 7:46:41 GMT
Oh, you’re talking of that thing that deluded itself into thinking it is Revan in SWTOR. I don’t consider that Revan. That game ruined both them and the Exile. Similar to how DAI ruined Hawks, except even more so. Haha, I actually feel the same about SWTOR to you. KOTOR II is actually my favourite game of all time, so the novel and SWTOR derailing the story, and diminishing the Exile, Kreia, the companions, and the theming is completely intolerable to me. But IMO, all of these things Mary Kirby mentions are true of Revan as of KOTOR II. & fundamentally Revan consciously becoming a Sith Lord to save the galaxy from a threat they alone perceive is within the same theme as Solas consciously becoming the Dread Wolf to save the world from a threat he alone perceives.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 29, 2024 16:16:48 GMT
30,247
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 7:56:01 GMT
Oh, you’re talking of that thing that deluded itself into thinking it is Revan in SWTOR. I don’t consider that Revan. That game ruined both them and the Exile. Similar to how DAI ruined Hawks, except even more so. Haha, I actually feel the same about SWTOR to you. KOTOR II is actually my favourite game of all time, so the novel and SWTOR derailing the story, and diminishing the Exile, Kreia, the companions, and the theming is completely intolerable to me. But IMO, all of these things Mary Kirby mentions are true of Revan as of KOTOR II. & fundamentally Revan consciously becoming a Sith Lord to save the galaxy from a threat they alone perceive is within the same theme as Solas consciously becoming the Dread Wolf to save the world from a threat he alone perceives. Yeah. That’s one reason why I want the Inquisitor to return as the playable protagonist in DA4 since when it comes to bringing back former PC characters as NPCs, they are terrible at it. At least with Revan and Exile thanks to Disney the stuff after KOTOR 2 can be considered non canon to those two games. I still have to disagree though. Solas is going a lot farther, what with his plan involving global genocide simply because he doesn’t like what happened the last time he did that.
|
|
inherit
11621
0
37
ihasfingers
19
August 2020
ihasfingers
|
Post by ihasfingers on Aug 20, 2020 7:37:43 GMT
I didn't think it was blunt at all. Went completely over my head the first play-through. Looking back on it, all the hints were there, but not at all obvious. A brilliantly written twist IMO.
|
|