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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 22:30:25 GMT
Hey, you want to hear a joke? I think I'd die of a happiness heart attack if they announced that for 4. Because you’re imagining a good game plus 10 years of additional story-related content. What you should ACTUALLY imagine with any game that promises “X years of content” is a half-finished game at launch that they patch their way to semi-completion in the years following, along with some half-hearted Battle Royale mode and a few other token upgrades. Eventually it all winds down to a “Development has ceased on GAME X” a couple of years later since nobody is playing it anymore and the developer can’t justify the continuing cost. because game companies make a habit of releasing unfinished products? Though you are probably right, ten years might be a bit much. But I don't care how we get the content as long as we get it, and its quality. And Bioware is known by me to develop great games. Nearly all LS games that I've played have been great or made great eventually so I have little doubt bioware will deliver a great product. I am going to have to express incredulity here. Having Anthem as the only example of Bioware's work of a 'ten year plan' live service system, why on earth would you express excitement?
I haven't played Anthem but from everything I've read, there is a strong justification for calling it an unfinished product at launch. And the quality of content post release has been mostly panned. Other studios may produce quality live service content post launch but Bioware has yet to prove they can do so.
So I really don't get the blind faith that they could do so in DA4 when the only source material to date has been a failure.
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Post by phoray on Oct 16, 2020 23:29:29 GMT
I haven't played Anthem but from everything I've read, there is a strong justification for calling it an unfinished product at launch. And the quality of content post release has been mostly panned. Other studios may produce quality live service content post launch but Bioware has yet to prove they can do so. I agree that Anthem sucks, but I believe some sort of LS post game content has been regularly released regarding the game SWOTOR. AS I cannot play the game myself, and definitely wasn't there when it was first release, it is mostly vague information I have on the matter. The impression I've gotten from various comments, however, is that they've released a lot of major story stuff.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 16, 2020 23:30:53 GMT
Hey, you want to hear a joke? I think I'd die of a happiness heart attack if they announced that for 4. Considering how awful the game seems to be, that would be the worst news yet.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2020 1:27:38 GMT
because game companies make a habit of releasing unfinished products? Where have you been in the past couple of years? The gaming landscape is littered with the corpses of "Release it now, patch it later" titles. So wait patching games is a bad thing? Because we have been patching games long before live service and even before DLC was a thing and the ability to patch games is quite neccessary for the industry, it may be an evil but I hardly see the alternative as being any more palatable. Moreover the need to patch a game does not mean a game is unfinished...and unfinished games was also a plague even before the current gaming landscape, KOTOR 2 and maybe Mass Effect 3 come most forcibly to mind. So what we have here is a situation of massive over exagerations. Games are buggy, games have post launch hiccups, games releasing story or quest related expansions does not mean a game is 'unfinished'. If its perfectly playable at launch and if it has a cohesive story that is really all we can ask for. Edit: Not to mention that current games which can go back and patch any number of problematic things or release new gameplay stuff conduicive to audience demands should be met with open arms. Breakpoint patched in squadmates and patched out tiered loot, FO 76 has added NPCs, and Anthem is doing...something...for the moment. I think I'd die of a happiness heart attack if they announced that for 4. because game companies make a habit of releasing unfinished products? Though you are probably right, ten years might be a bit much. But I don't care how we get the content as long as we get it, and its quality. And Bioware is known by me to develop great games. Nearly all LS games that I've played have been great or made great eventually so I have little doubt bioware will deliver a great product. I am going to have to express incredulity here. Having Anthem as the only example of Bioware's work of a 'ten year plan' live service system, why on earth would you express excitement?
I haven't played Anthem but from everything I've read, there is a strong justification for calling it an unfinished product at launch. And the quality of content post release has been mostly panned. Other studios may produce quality live service content post launch but Bioware has yet to prove they can do so.
So I really don't get the blind faith that they could do so in DA4 when the only source material to date has been a failure.
That is the million dollar question in the room. That IF they go this way CAN they manage to pull it off and execute it. I have my doubts, but the prospect of playing a Dragon Age game(s) for the next ten years fills me with excitement. As far as Anthem is concerned the game was obviously problematic (I've played it) but there is actually a strong solid core there. It was a fun experience overall and while I have no plans to replay it until the maybe release of Anthem 2.0 I look forward to seeing what they can do with it.
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Post by necrowaif on Oct 17, 2020 1:37:43 GMT
So wait patching games is a bad thing? I know you’re not this dumb. Stop pretending to be.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2020 1:52:08 GMT
So wait patching games is a bad thing? I know you’re not this dumb. Stop pretending to be. Fair enough. I suppose just my occasional inability to communicate my ideas properly rearing its head again. But at the end of the day I just don't see much of an issue with things like that. I fundamentally disagree with the criticism I see where games are being released 'unfinished'. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head where that criticism might apply would be No Man's Sky and FO 76...which I haven't actually played either game so I can't say for certain. Of course this does not speak to the quality of the finished products we are talking about. Games could suck, games could not suck and to call games 'unfinished' as a carte blanche term just seems to do everyone a disservice.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2020 3:31:14 GMT
The "completeness" or "finishedness" of a game is completely arbitrary. The only reason there is even any discussion to be had is *because* adding extra content is a possibility. Despite certain predatory business practices that are akin to gambling (if not outright gambling), I vastly prefer the current climate to the one of just 15 years ago, where a $60-$90 handheld or console game could turn out to be finished over a weekend, or too glitchy to finish at all, with nothing to be done about it.
If I end up enjoying DA4 enough to continue playing it long-term, then I will purchase any additional content it offers, whether that be in the form of new characters, locations, stories, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 12:10:31 GMT
I haven't played Anthem but from everything I've read, there is a strong justification for calling it an unfinished product at launch. And the quality of content post release has been mostly panned. Other studios may produce quality live service content post launch but Bioware has yet to prove they can do so. I agree that Anthem sucks, but I believe some sort of LS post game content has been regularly released regarding the game SWOTOR. AS I cannot play the game myself, and definitely wasn't there when it was first release, it is mostly vague information I have on the matter. The impression I've gotten from various comments, however, is that they've released a lot of major story stuff. Oh that's true, I'd forgotten SWTOR
I haven't played that either but did watch YT playthroughs of all of the paths plus the expansions. The story was good and impressive amount of content post-launch. From what I saw, though, the expansions narrowed down to Light Side and Dark Side paths instead of the original 8 paths. And the Eternal Throne expansions actually went down to one path I believe. And that story makes a lot more sense if the PC is a force user, making playing one of the soldier or agent characters feel a bit forced. From what I've read, the Eternal Throne feels more like KOTOR3 crammed into multiplayer.
Content in that game slowly died and it feels on life support now, taking a back seat to ME and DA and Anthem. That's a concern for live service games with multiple IPs. Bungie only had Destiny so of course they can spend 100% focus on content. Bioware has moved Anthem to Austin with SWTOR. If DA is a live service ten year model, who will be responsible for churning out content? The whole Edmonton studio? A skeleton crew while Edmonton moves on to ME?
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 17, 2020 12:27:46 GMT
The "completeness" or "finishedness" of a game is completely arbitrary. The only reason there is even any discussion to be had is *because* adding extra content is a possibility. Despite certain predatory business practices that are akin to gambling (if not outright gambling), I vastly prefer the current climate to the one of just 15 years ago, where a $60-$90 handheld or console game could turn out to be finished over a weekend, or too glitchy to finish at all, with nothing to be done about it. If I end up enjoying DA4 enough to continue playing it long-term, then I will purchase any additional content it offers, whether that be in the form of new characters, locations, stories, etc. Yeah. Developers might be more reliant on patches now so they are adding new content closer to the time the game goes gold, but there was never a point where games didn't have issues with them. I really wish I could remember the game, but I remember one NES game where I had to borrow a friends Game Genie to get past a boss where it needed the weapon from the next boss to move on. Probably the most extreme example I can think of, but it has happened. Also modern games are also more complex then they were in the era before the 360.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 17, 2020 12:38:44 GMT
I agree that Anthem sucks, but I believe some sort of LS post game content has been regularly released regarding the game SWOTOR. AS I cannot play the game myself, and definitely wasn't there when it was first release, it is mostly vague information I have on the matter. The impression I've gotten from various comments, however, is that they've released a lot of major story stuff. Oh that's true, I'd forgotten SWTOR
I haven't played that either but did watch YT playthroughs of all of the paths plus the expansions. The story was good and impressive amount of content post-launch. From what I saw, though, the expansions narrowed down to Light Side and Dark Side paths instead of the original 8 paths. And the Eternal Throne expansions actually went down to one path I believe. And that story makes a lot more sense if the PC is a force user, making playing one of the soldier or agent characters feel a bit forced. From what I've read, the Eternal Throne feels more like KOTOR3 crammed into multiplayer.
Content in that game slowly died and it feels on life support now, taking a back seat to ME and DA and Anthem. That's a concern for live service games with multiple IPs. Bungie only had Destiny so of course they can spend 100% focus on content. Bioware has moved Anthem to Austin with SWTOR. If DA is a live service ten year model, who will be responsible for churning out content? The whole Edmonton studio? A skeleton crew while Edmonton moves on to ME?
Those initial paths were for leveling and from my experience where just directional markers on where to go next. When you got to the more complex part of the games such as flashpoints even with the initial content was light versus dark. Any content for a video game is based on the number of people playing it and no matter the game there is player attrition. Even EA didn't believe the 10 year plan for Anthem. The only quote I ever found was from Patrick Söderlund where he said "the start of maybe a 10-year journey". Generally after a year for a single player game there just isn't the audience for more content even basic DLC, its why expansion packs died off as fast as they did when DLC started, by the time they got the content out the audience wasn't there to buy it. Story based content is just too expensive if you audience isn't there, its why multiplayer content has become popular because it keeps people interested in the game longer while being cheaper then making new story based content since at some point it just becomes a small weapon skin with a bunch of different variables attached.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 13:18:32 GMT
Oh that's true, I'd forgotten SWTOR
I haven't played that either but did watch YT playthroughs of all of the paths plus the expansions. The story was good and impressive amount of content post-launch. From what I saw, though, the expansions narrowed down to Light Side and Dark Side paths instead of the original 8 paths. And the Eternal Throne expansions actually went down to one path I believe. And that story makes a lot more sense if the PC is a force user, making playing one of the soldier or agent characters feel a bit forced. From what I've read, the Eternal Throne feels more like KOTOR3 crammed into multiplayer.
Content in that game slowly died and it feels on life support now, taking a back seat to ME and DA and Anthem. That's a concern for live service games with multiple IPs. Bungie only had Destiny so of course they can spend 100% focus on content. Bioware has moved Anthem to Austin with SWTOR. If DA is a live service ten year model, who will be responsible for churning out content? The whole Edmonton studio? A skeleton crew while Edmonton moves on to ME?
Those initial paths were for leveling and from my experience where just directional markers on where to go next. When you got to the more complex part of the games such as flashpoints even with the initial content was light versus dark. Any content for a video game is based on the number of people playing it and no matter the game there is player attrition. Even EA didn't believe the 10 year plan for Anthem. The only quote I ever found was from Patrick Söderlund where he said "the start of maybe a 10-year journey". Generally after a year for a single player game there just isn't the audience for more content even basic DLC, its why expansion packs died off as fast as they did when DLC started, by the time they got the content out the audience wasn't there to buy it. Story based content is just too expensive if you audience isn't there, its why multiplayer content has become popular because it keeps people interested in the game longer while being cheaper then making new story based content since at some point it just becomes a small weapon skin with a bunch of different variables attached. That's fair enough. I see your points. If we don't expect massive amounts of content in the live service model further than a year out, I would hope that DA5 would be in development while DA4 services are being released. I would hate for DA5 to be delayed for years because Bioware is focused on getting as much profit as possible from the live service elements, when those elements won't be significant story-wise.
If live services were profitable without much effort going into them, that could be good for Bioware to have guaranteed revenue to support them while they work on their single player games. I worry that EA would tell Bioware their live service content is more cost effective and profitable so they should focus more on that than traditional SP games going forward.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 17, 2020 13:32:13 GMT
Those initial paths were for leveling and from my experience where just directional markers on where to go next. When you got to the more complex part of the games such as flashpoints even with the initial content was light versus dark. Any content for a video game is based on the number of people playing it and no matter the game there is player attrition. Even EA didn't believe the 10 year plan for Anthem. The only quote I ever found was from Patrick Söderlund where he said "the start of maybe a 10-year journey". Generally after a year for a single player game there just isn't the audience for more content even basic DLC, its why expansion packs died off as fast as they did when DLC started, by the time they got the content out the audience wasn't there to buy it. Story based content is just too expensive if you audience isn't there, its why multiplayer content has become popular because it keeps people interested in the game longer while being cheaper then making new story based content since at some point it just becomes a small weapon skin with a bunch of different variables attached. That's fair enough. I see your points. If we don't expect massive amounts of content in the live service model further than a year out, I would hope that DA5 would be in development while DA4 services are being released. I would hate for DA5 to be delayed for years because Bioware is focused on getting as much profit as possible from the live service elements, when those elements won't be significant story-wise.
If live services were profitable without much effort going into them, that could be good for Bioware to have guaranteed revenue to support them while they work on their single player games. I worry that EA would tell Bioware their live service content is more cost effective and profitable so they should focus more on that than traditional SP games going forward.
I highly doubt BioWare would ever start development on the next Dragon Age game while the other one is still getting new content, even pre-Anthem when they would be working on the next Mass Effect game. It has been six to seven years between direct sequels for BioWare games in the past and games now are taking longer to develop unless they are one of the yearly churn games like sports or Call of Duty. As far as predicting what live service is going to do, I think there is just too wide a definition to really speculate. Back when people were complaining about live service being "mandatory" in every EA game a BioWare dev talked about how even Dragon Age: Origins met that requirement with its Flash game. Combined with what I have read from developers over the years I think players are being riled up by some personalities when it comes to live services for there are good and bad implementations just like anything else. My best understanding is that live services aren't designed to be a replacement to making new games or content, but to keep players interested in the game longer. So maybe have that one player that only plays the game once in the first month engaged with a MP component for three months so they buy two story based DLCs instead of one.
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Post by samurailink on Oct 17, 2020 19:54:40 GMT
I think it's been pretty well covered at this point that they wouldn't really fit into the story that already exists very well. Mark of the Assassin was a little cringy but the idea of smaller missions with temporary companions was a solid idea, and if they could take place early in the game and the companion stuck around I wouldn't be against it although I can't see them getting party banter and as many interactions as original companions. So they would really need to shine in that one mission.
I'd like "Live Service" to mean more Inquisition like DLC, or if Bioware wanted to be REALLY cool. I want them to bring back Awakening-like expansions. We were robbed of Exalted March for 2, and I was hoping they'd bring back expansions for Inquisiton.
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