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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 24, 2016 12:13:28 GMT
I hope this thread will generate some interesting ideas and debate about magic in Thedas based off we have learned thus far. I am drawing on all sources; games, source books, novels and the on-line Core Rule Book for lore about magic.
First off, since we are likely headed to Tevinter next game and so should be encountering blood magic once again, I am currently a bit puzzled over where blood magic derives its mana. According to Last Flight it definitely doesn't come from the Fade and it is evident to any mage using the normal source of mana that the blood mage is drawing their power from somewhere else. According to the CRB magic permeates all living beings in Thedas, whether animals, plants or sentient beings. It also states that some believe that magic is the power that gives life. This would seem to clear up the question of where blood magic derives its power. Whilst some humanoids such as mages and elves have greater concentrations of magic in their blood, it would seem that everyone is endowed with a little. However, this leads to a new problem. If blood magic does not derive its power from the Fade, then theoretically a Tranquil should still be able to utilise blood magic and still do spells, since the Rite cuts them off from the Fade. So is it just that they haven't had the incentive to do so (having no emotions to drive them) or do you actually need emotions to do magic?
When Solas is discussing with Cassandra how a Templars ability to supress magic works, it entirely revolves around their ability to reinforce reality so "the Fade has nowhere to gain a foothold and the magic disperses". Surely though that only applies to mages who draw their power from the Fade. If a blood mage does not draw their power from the Fade, then according to this speech the Templar should have no affect on a blood mage, yet we know they do. So how do you suppose this works?
When talking with Vivienne Solas confirms that there is another source of magical power, Blight magic. The false calling was Blight magic; the demon merely amplified its effect over a wider area. Solas also comments that the wine glass with blight magic in it is poisoned. Essentially there is nothing good about Blight magic and anyone using it will eventually be consumed. In the Last Flight it is again made clear that the Archdemon's Blight magic is being drawn from somewhere other than the Fade. It is not drawing it from the same source as blood magic, since Solas has no problem with blood magic being used, so clearly not "poisoned". It would seem the only other place it could be drawing its power from is the Void. This would make sense since essentially the Blight is an anti-life, destructive force and so likely to derive from the antithesis of life that is the Void. It is the complete opposite of the Creative force of the Maker (or whatever you like to call the originator of the world). The thing is, if it doesn't derive its power from the Fade and it doesn't derive it from the life force of created beings, where does the power come from? Is there in fact another entity in their universe that is the polar opposite of the Maker? Why does a place like the Void that is essentially an absence of anything, a negative so to speak, give any power at all? Still I assume this is what Corypheus meant in his memories when he says they didn't make the darkness, they merely discovered it and made it their own. This would suggest that the Void, or at least a portal to it, is what lies in the Black City at the heart of the Fade. Any thoughts on this.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Oct 24, 2016 12:48:57 GMT
The Nature of Magic?Whisful thinking
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2016 13:41:01 GMT
I have always imagined blood magic draws its power from life itself. That it isn't the blood itself that fuels the magic but the life force within it. Which is why powerful blood magic rituals often call for someone's death. You are using up all their life, leaving them with nothing to sustain them. In addition, blood magic is stronger when the victim is in pain, if their life-force is stirred up and agitated.
And yes, a templar's power is definitely ineffective against blood magic. It's one of the things that makes them so terrifying. Only a Seeker can really stand against their magic.
Blight magic is definitely a mystery. Even the demons don't understand it. Though it is apparently has some general similarity to blood magic...
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 24, 2016 17:51:16 GMT
Yes, blood magic is drawing from the vital life energy of blood. Maybe it would help not to think of fade/blood being seperate types of mana, but all mana as coming from the same vital life energy, which is just distilled down into different forms? Yes, my guess is the Blight does ultimately come from the Void, and is probably entropic is nature. Which is why their bodies become twisted after a time. Cory was only immortal so long as he could keep a part of himself bound, like to his red lyrium Dragon, to keep his mind/soul from becoming obliterated. Why are so many Templars ineffective against blood magic? Honestly I think it's a more mundane reason, like that they simply aren't actually trained to be, because that would probably involve the fade or calling on spirits~ things Seekers are apparently allowed to do but Templars are not (being primarily a military order and lower in Chantry hierarchy, I guess). And yes, if this is the reason, it is profoundly stupid.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2016 18:03:51 GMT
Yes, blood magic is drawing from the vital life energy of blood. Maybe it would help not to think of fade/blood being seperate types of mana, but all mana as coming from the same vital life energy, which is just distilled down into different forms? Yes, my guess is the Blight does ultimately come from the Void, and is probably entropic is nature. Which is why their bodies become twisted after a time. Cory was only immortal so long as he could keep a part of himself bound, like to his red lyrium Dragon, to keep his mind/soul from becoming obliterated. Interestingly, lyrium is also a mutagen. It seems magisters who used a lot of lyrium long-term can end up scarcely looking human anymore.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 24, 2016 18:50:57 GMT
Yes, blood magic is drawing from the vital life energy of blood. Maybe it would help not to think of fade/blood being seperate types of mana, but all mana as coming from the same vital life energy, which is just distilled down into different forms? Yes, my guess is the Blight does ultimately come from the Void, and is probably entropic is nature. Which is why their bodies become twisted after a time. Cory was only immortal so long as he could keep a part of himself bound, like to his red lyrium Dragon, to keep his mind/soul from becoming obliterated. Interestingly, lyrium is also a mutagen. It seems magisters who used a lot of lyrium long-term can end up scarcely looking human anymore. Yes, but a working theory I've seen, and one I think makes sense, is that Dragons were either naturally resistant to the Blight, or capable of harnessing power from the Void itself without becoming corrupted. The Old Gods were either actual Dragons, or mages originally with close relationships with Dragon guardians or spirits, who had a natural affinity with the Void. Or I suppose they could have simply enslaved them, the way Cory did his red lyrium Dragon.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2016 18:55:24 GMT
Interestingly, lyrium is also a mutagen. It seems magisters who used a lot of lyrium long-term can end up scarcely looking human anymore. Yes, but a working theory I've seen, and one I think makes sense, is that Dragons were either naturally resistant to the Blight, or capable of harnessing power from the Void itself without becoming corrupted. The Old Gods were either actual Dragons, or mages originally with close relationships with Dragon guardians or spirits, who had a natural affinity with the Void. Or I suppose they could have simply enslaved them, the way Cory did his red lyrium Dragon. I'm willing to bet the former. The results of the war Table mission indicate that dragons do eventually succumb to the taint (DAO even has dragon thralls, I think they were called, blighted dragons, as enemies) Personally, I wonder if the Old Gods aren't possessed dragons kinda like Hakkon in JoH. It would certainly explain how ancient magisters are said to have learned blood magic from demons of the Fade and Dumat in separate stories.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 25, 2016 12:08:40 GMT
The thing is if Templars are ineffective against blood mages, what in the hell is their purpose? Surely that makes Alistair right and feeding them lyrium is just the Chantry's way of keeping them under their control. Ordinary mages may be dangerous but on the whole, close proximity in the Circles means the Templar can deal with the mage with regular weapons. Where Templars are really necessary is hunting down apostates, who are likely to be using blood magic because they are desperate and do not have access to lyrium. They need to neutralise these mages quickly but apparently their "special" powers given them by lyrium are ineffective, so they are just regular soldiers rendered paranoid and unstable by their drug addiction and fanatical faith. Even Seekers are only protected against blood magic mind control, not the other lethal spells that can only be performed by blood magic, like blood sacrifice and haemorrhage. Although I presume some Seekers can fight back with a similar spell that Cassandra says not all are able to perform, that of boiling the mage's blood in their veins, presumably honing in on the magical signature in it. (I'd love for an explanation of how they can do this and yet it not be blood magic).
So it seems to me that since Seekers are more effective against all forms of magic, why did they ever bother with Templars at all? Presumably because Seekers are required to have genuine faith and it takes too long to produce them, if Cassandra's year long vigil is anything to go by.
Another thing I have only just discovered is that abominations aren't physically possessed. The demon is not indwelling the mage but merely controlling them from the Fade. (Core Rule Book). However, this is not always the case. When we kill Hakkon, we see the spirit return to the Fade. When a Warden kills the arch demon the spirit physically passes through them. Urthemiel was physically inside Kieran and was called out into Flemeth. Mythal (or some part of her) passed from Flemeth to Solas. So there would appear to be two kinds of possession; the control from the Fade sort and the direct co-habitation sort. It is the latter that would seem to be linked to the activities of the various "gods" of Thedas.
To my mind the Old Gods are either the split soul vessel of ancient beings (like the Evanuris), which is where Corypheus got his knowledge from, or they are the result of a Fade spirit being called into a mortal vessel (as with Hakkon). The latter seems likely considering that the Hakkonites originally got their knowledge of how to do this (back in Ameridan's day) from investigating the Temple of Razikale. That was probably connected with how to accomplish this with a dragon, since calling spirits into a mortal being would seem to be an ancient practice of the Avaar (and likely the ancient human tribes as well) However, if that is the case, does the Blight cause some change the connection the spirit has to the mortal body? Otherwise you would think it would simply return to the Fade on death. Yet instead it constantly jumps into the nearest tainted body, so something about Void magic overrides the normal procedure.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 25, 2016 13:51:03 GMT
Yes, I believe DAI reveals the original purpose of the Templar order was to assist the Seekers, in hunting demons and combating black magic, etc. And they were more powerful then. But over time, the Order got watered down. Maybe because the year long Seeker initiation process was too long and complex, and they wanted to simplify things to build up a large army. Add to the fact that most ordinary Templars don't really need that extra training when all they are doing is guarding ordinary Circle mages, who generally weren't turning into abominations in large numbers, in the first place. Higher ranking Templars are probably better, but... It's not a problem the Order itself could really address without confronting Chantry rules about magic, which would call the whole Circle system and policy against mages in question. It would blur the lines between what Templars and Mages can do. So big no no.
As for spirit possession. Yes, I don't know how much they intend to draw from real occult and shamanic lore (they seem to do so a bit), but there are generally two ways for a mage to call forth a spirit: innovation and evocation. It's exactly what it sounds like. One is allowing the spirit to inhabit ones own body (temporary posession like what the Avaar do), and the other is working with it from outside oneself, or temporarily inhabiting a sacred object like an idol for example.
No, if the Blight comes from the Void, and infected spirits likely have to pass through the Void/Abyss before they can return to the Fade. This is why Cory wants the Orb probably. Because he's tied to Abyss and physical world and could not enter the Golden City, without crossing the Void and experiencing complete ego death (we know this is what the Void does, as explained by Solas about his Wisdom Spirit friend, whose memory and sense of individual self will be erased). Which is what Cory wants to avoid if he is to become a god. Remember the original goal of the Magisters was to walk the Fade physically, which had not been done since before the Veil.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 25, 2016 18:14:28 GMT
There is something of a contradiction there. Solas' friend was not affected by the Blight yet lost her identity on returning to the Fade. Whereas, according to Avaar lore the spirit retains its sense of identity and will eventually reform as it was before. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the number of people remembering you. So when the Avaar god dies a large number of people will be continuing to pray for it and this enables it to retain its sense of identity, whereas Solas' friend just had him, which was enough to start its regeneration (when he went and meditated in that bit of the Fade) but not enough for a full restoration. I've suggested in the past that this could be the reason that Mythal retained her sense of self, because the elves continued to pray to her (and the other gods) even after the Creators were shut away. If that is the case, then may be that is why she still regards the Dalish as being true People, because it is thanks to them that she is still around, whereas Solas and the other ancient elves have no reason to be grateful to them.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 25, 2016 19:47:15 GMT
Solas' friend was not Blighted no, but had become a demon, and was outside of the Fade, when it happened. So she was weakened probably. If true, this could presumably be what happens to any demons, or spirits outside the Fade upon being destroyed. I think they then become shades, where they remain in the Void/Abyss. Unless they are a strong enough spirit to pass back into the Fade. So yeah, being a god probably helps. Solas says if the idea of that spirit is strong enough, it could reform again in the Fade someday, it just wouldn't remember him.
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