catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 204 Likes: 339
inherit
11818
0
339
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
204
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 19, 2021 20:05:34 GMT
First, a little introduction. Modest Proposal is intended to bounce ideas to improve/change certain parts of the CRPG game experience in reference to DA4. I call it 'modest' because the ideas ideally should target less radical changes to the base of DA:I that would be reasonable for Bioware to execute as opposed to say, rewriting the dialogue system or doing the game in 2D graphics or using the Inquisitor as protagonist. There's nothing necessarily wrong with big ideas or talking about them but there's already plenty of that around. The focus here is on smaller changes that could have big payoffs. I'll kick one off and hopefully you will see what I mean. This thread is intended to be about how we as Players interact with the Companions and the world of DA4 interacts with the Companions. It is not about the various perceived qualities or lack thereof of Companions in previous games or rumored or possible Companions in DA4. There are plenty of threads exploring preferences and dislikes for past and future Companions. I am more looking for ideas and feedback on how to better interact with and utilize these key components of a Bioware game. 1: On the Road Again - I can't really take credit for the idea since it's something Bioware has done before and has been mentioned at least once here, but there should be some more serious, in-depth discussions with Companions outside any 'camp' that exists in DA4. This was present in DA:I in a kind of sneaky way, at the Temple of Mythal with Morrigan keyed by interacting with certain objects there. I would like to see this expanded to our more present Companions as well with certain landmarks or objects that trigger an actual cutscene and conversation instead of the one-timer voice clip, like when you blow up a chunk of Red Lyrium. 2: Don't You Forget About Me - (I was thinking Life Goes On but that's not my generation  ) All Companions have personal quests to help flesh them out and give the Player an opportunity to build rapport and curry favor with the Companion, but if you don't do anything with them in Camp, they just kind of sit on their hands. Can anyone really see Cassandra standing around waiting to get permission before going to find Lucius? Cole, likewise, is quite determined. Does anyone think if the Inquisitor hadn't said something he still wouldn't have demanded action with either and/or both of Solas and Varric? At appropriate (for the story, definitely not the Player ) time,, if the Companion hasn't had a given quest undertaken and fulfilled, something fitting the character should happen. Taking an alternate reality DA:I as an example, Cassandra might take off with Varric, Solas, and Iron Bull to storm Caer Oswyn (don't think she would leave a note), Vivianne might leave and return (or not) to be with her lover while he dies, Solas might plead with you to save his spirit friend, etc. The point is that the world keeps turning for your Companions even when you are not at the center of it and, in the words of the late, great Canadian philosopher Neil Peart "If you choose not to decide , you still have made a choice". Assuming the Companion doesn't leave for good, the reaction and result could also provide more good hooks to understand the character as well. 3: We're On a Road to Nowhere - This one I have shipped over from my topic on the Mission/War Table. I liked the general idea of the War Table but in its DA:I form it wouldn't likely fit the situation exactly in DA4. Instead, with some input from others on that thread I suggested having local 'missions' like on the War Table, that you could assign Companions to with results that varied based on the Companion assigned instead of the Advisor (which we probably won't have in DA4). You could even improve your standing with some Companions based on the missions that you assign them (or drop it by giving them the Clean Latrine repeating mission ). 4: Can't Start a Fire Without a Spark - One of the amazing discoveries I made when going to Youtube to look up some particulars on a question, is how much Companion interaction I missed because my characters are all apparently too nice. I'm not sure this is a universal experience, but through normal (for me) gameplay, I never triggered one of the Companions 'angry' scenes which left me out on some pretty good character interaction. In DA4 (or your game, whomever is making it), it shouldn't require choosing about everything wrong to get a Companion mad at you or willing to confront you. Think about Sten in DA:O confronting you not so much because of personal anger, but to test your Warden's worthiness to lead. Confrontation can be sparked even in people you are otherwise friendly with if you cross a certain line. In that AU DA:I, imagine if Varric actually challenges your Inquisitor for making the call to sacrifice Hawke instead of a Warden? It wouldn't be a heavy lift to believe that given the circumstances. So, more confrontation, maybe sooner, and more depth so it isn't (necessarily) an endpoint that can only lead to tears. 5: Two Heads Are Better than One - One of the interactions I liked but saw to seldom in DA:I were those between multiple Companions. The best to me was the story of Cole becoming either more spirit or more human depending on whether the Inquisitor agrees with Solas or Varric. Having two or more Companions interact gives all of them more depth and can be used to put the Inquisitor 'on the spot' as it were. It's harder to take the old route of just agreeing with whichever Companion you are talking to, secure in the notion that no one else affected will hear, if there's an opposing viewpoint standing right there. Let me know what you think or what other ideas you have to make Companions more enjoyable and complete. |
|
Black Magic Ritual
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 293 Likes: 241
inherit
11794
0
241
Black Magic Ritual
293
Jan 22, 2021 18:47:26 GMT
January 2021
blackmagicritual
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Black Magic Ritual on Feb 20, 2021 22:42:49 GMT
Always loved those scenes in DA:O where we got cutscenes of the entire party together or working together.
i.e.
The party meeting post Landsmeet
The Darkspawn attack on the Party camp itself
The Final Push before the party splits in two at the final hours of the game
etc
It made feel as though all of them were behind me and not just the 3 I took with me wherever I went during Origins. I'd want to see more of that, having them all be present during important moments in the game or at least not that faraway.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11664
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 23:26:21 GMT
Dear Companion,
don't be such a wimp! Don't fall for the belief that you owe me sympathy for completing your loyality mission (loyality missions, a concept older than dirt) or even sex, just because I tend to pick the dialogue options that suggest approval.
Discuss issues with me eye-to-eye, even when we disagree. You can do this. I know you can!
A background is a great thing, indeed. But you know what? Life is not static. I think you also need to adapt and change. Something needs to either rock your beliefs to the core or slightly push you to think: “Maybe I was wrong about this?”
Why do I say that? Because characters who evolve and reflect that also make playing a game far more entertaining - because they’re being challenged and growing and they aren’t being static. No longer are they just the companion, now they are Jack/Morrigan/Anders/Varric...
But that is not all: We all view things through different lenses. Many factors affect these lenses such as gender, age, hobbies, etc. These lenses shape our experiences with the world and the people in it. To me, a companion with a mind of their own not only makes an interesting character, but can provide a different view on the world.
|
|
leadintea
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 265 Likes: 379
inherit
1012
0
379
leadintea
265
Aug 16, 2016 14:43:51 GMT
August 2016
leadintea
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by leadintea on Feb 21, 2021 3:02:13 GMT
Have every companion integral to the story and actually make them interact with it. Either make all companions mandatory so that you don't have to deal with the hassle of making scenes/dialogue to account for whether or not they're present, or make them appear in certain parts of the story regardless of whether you didn't recruit them or kicked them out of your party (similar to how Anders always shows up at the end of DA2 even if you kicked him out of you party).
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 204 Likes: 339
inherit
11818
0
339
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
204
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 21, 2021 5:13:52 GMT
Thank you both for responding. I did indeed like the fact you could storm Denerim with the whole team and split the party and "see" the group at the gates taking on a crew of darkspawn. Wouldn't mind seeing something like that again for DA4 or even something inspired by Oceans 11 and other heist films. One thing I would say though, it should be a little harder to hold the gang together. We know why Solas had to stay in DA:I but Cassandra and Varric were only kept to an Inquisitor they loathed because Bioware didn't want a player trapped without some kind of party. Still, it was too easy to take actions that should have caused more dissent if not defections just by turning around and telling a given Companion what she/he wants to hear. That should get you into some kind of trouble just like it does in real life. That's, of course, the challenge: we want Companions to be realistic but there are limitations in any computer game until we get quantum computers and AI in games.  Until then, developers have to create an illusion of reality while limiting the conversation to a few narrow paths to avoid using too many resources. On top of that, they have to give some sort of in-game feedback since the player even in game doesn't get to spend as much time with Companions as they would in a real life scenario. Still, Venhedis, you are absolutely right that DA:I moved back from DA:O in the complexity of making our Companions amenable to the Inquisitor. Probably a combination of the short development time due to engine issues and the less than enthusiastic feedback on the Friendship-Rivalry mechanic they tried in DA2. Here's a thought I had that is just one way it might be made better without breaking the proverbial bank. Start with a two dimensional approval system. Afinnity is how much your actions and words (with more weight on the actions) matches a Companion's values. Loyalty is how your Protagonist does requests for the Companion and uses her/him in Missions (from the Mission Table in Modest Proposal: Mission Table). Also assume that not all or even many Companions are impressed by high values in both, but have a 'sweet spot' that reflects a bit more nuanced philosophy. Now, imagine our 'camp' is a tavern. Not an unsuitable base of operations for a game that focuses more on covert style operations and could be largely centered in several of the cities that we are likely to operate in (Minrathos, Antiva City, Nevarra). As the Player approaches one of the Companions, she/he receives a verbal cue where your rating stands in reference to the 'sweet spot' (too low in both, too low in one or the other, too high ine one or the other, too high in both, or just right). Also imagine as you make some great pronouncement, it gets spread around the tavern. For example, declaring that mages should be caged and leashed starts up a song in the tavern about it! No hiding out here and your mage Companions will probably take a hit to Affinity. The idea, whatever its form, is to make Companion's actual approval more nuanced while giving the Player better in-game cues than floating text on the side (often for Companions who aren't even there!). Also, give some sort of penalty/unveiling when the player's actions don't match the pronouncements given in the 'camp' and keep her/him from too sucessfully speaking out of both sides of the mouth. |
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2021 13:50:51 GMT
I think they should not notify the player at all about when companions "approve/disapprove" of something. No meters, no pop-ups in the corner. Nothing. There's no point to it. Especially in DAI, since high approval doesn't come with any sort of bonus/boost to the characters, far as I can tell, nor do there seem to be many (if any) "crisis" points where a character will confront you and/or leave.
If whatever I did doesn't impress or upset the character enough for them to come and talk to me about it themselves, then I don't need to know about it, and showing me just needlessly exposes the artifice of the relationship.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,982 Likes: 3,497
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,497
Noxluxe
1,982
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 21, 2021 16:34:32 GMT
I think they should not notify the player at all about when companions "approve/disapprove" of something. No meters, no pop-ups in the corner. Nothing. There's no point to it. Especially in DAI, since high approval doesn't come with any sort of bonus/boost to the characters, far as I can tell, nor do there seem to be many (if any) "crisis" points where a character will confront you and/or leave. If whatever I did doesn't impress or upset the character enough for them to come and talk to me about it themselves, then I don't need to know about it, and showing me just needlessly exposes the artifice of the relationship. I'd argue that the 'x approves/disapproves/strongly approves/strongly disapproves' thing does a good job of simulating your character looking around the room and gauging how people are taking what's going on, which is a pretty important aspect of keeping any kind of company healthy and functional long-term in real life and would also be a hell of a thing to constantly render graphically or through dialogue in-game. It's no different from doing something significant and then looking up to see some of your buddies shaking their heads or trying not to glare at you because you misjudged their positions or acted against their interests, or just accidentally stepped on their feelings. Just because they're not going to desert or make a big deal out of it doesn't mean that you can't note their displeasure and take it under consideration when deciding how to handle them going forward one way or the other. And conversely, being alerted that they approve of something is the closest substitute we have for them smiling, clapping your hand or bumping you on the shoulder, showing their respect and appreciation in small ways that it'd just be a nightmare to consistently turn into dialogue or animations. 'Sera Approves' is just an abstraction of her sniggering at something you said, or murmuring "Good one, Boss!" behind you. In my mind, removing those notifications completely would just mean that the player character is shit at reading moods and faces and body language. Maybe it'd be fun as a setting to turn on or off, if you want to roleplay someone who's a bit oblivious to everyone around them. In general I feel that people are way too hard on the approval/disapproval system, and don't find it nearly as artificial as it's constantly accused of being. No, Morrigan doesn't invite you into her tent because the price on her body is a shiny mirror and a +10 approval bump. She invites you into her tent because you've generally acted in ways she respects and approves of and finds attractive over a period of time, recently culminating in a nice gesture that affected her profoundly because collecting beautiful things and sources of independent wealth is something she's never been allowed to before. Especially if she told you about it, and you remembered. As if real people don't gravitate towards friends and partners who agree with our values, give us gifts that reflect real understanding of our desires and tell us what we need to hear to find peace or get through difficult or painful moments. 
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2021 21:40:11 GMT
I think they should not notify the player at all about when companions "approve/disapprove" of something. No meters, no pop-ups in the corner. Nothing. There's no point to it. Especially in DAI, since high approval doesn't come with any sort of bonus/boost to the characters, far as I can tell, nor do there seem to be many (if any) "crisis" points where a character will confront you and/or leave. If whatever I did doesn't impress or upset the character enough for them to come and talk to me about it themselves, then I don't need to know about it, and showing me just needlessly exposes the artifice of the relationship. I'd argue that the 'x approves/disapproves/strongly approves/strongly disapproves' thing does a good job of simulating your character looking around the room and gauging how people are taking what's going on, which is a pretty important aspect of keeping any kind of company healthy and functional long-term in real life and would also be a hell of a thing to constantly render graphically or through dialogue in-game. It's no different from doing something significant and then looking up to see some of your buddies shaking their heads or trying not to glare at you because you misjudged their positions or acted against their interests, or just accidentally stepped on their feelings. Just because they're not going to desert or make a big deal out of it doesn't mean that you can't note their displeasure and take it under consideration when deciding how to handle them going forward one way or the other. And conversely, being alerted that they approve of something is the closest substitute we have for them smiling, clapping your hand or bumping you on the shoulder, showing their respect and appreciation in small ways that it'd just be a nightmare to consistently turn into dialogue or animations. 'Sera Approves' is just an abstraction of her sniggering at something you said, or murmuring "Good one, Boss!" behind you. In my mind, removing those notifications completely would just mean that the player character is shit at reading moods and faces and body language. Maybe it'd be fun as a setting to turn on or off, if you want to roleplay someone who's a bit oblivious to everyone around them. In general I feel that people are way too hard on the approval/disapproval system, and don't find it nearly as artificial as it's constantly accused of being. No, Morrigan doesn't invite you into her tent because the price on her body is a shiny mirror and a +10 approval bump. She invites you into her tent because you've generally acted in ways she respects and approves of and finds attractive over a period of time, recently culminating in a nice gesture that affected her profoundly because collecting beautiful things and sources of independent wealth is something she's never been allowed to before. Especially if she told you about it, and you remembered. As if real people don't gravitate towards friends and partners who agree with our values, give us gifts that reflect real understanding of our desires and tell us what we need to hear to find peace or get through difficult or painful moments. I think that the gifts and gestures a companion will appreciate are easy enough to intuit, if the player is remotely paying attention. It's not as if BioWare has ever been subtle about it. They might as well have the characters straight up say "My name is Isabela, I like boats, money, and generally being a selfish twat." And in Inquisition it basically doesn't matter, because there are no consequences in regard to approval either way. Nothing significant, anyway. Iron Bull is the only character who ever potentially turns on you, and approval has no impact on that decision. All character outcomes in DAI are based on specific decisions made at particular points, which is just fine, but it makes "approval" irrelevant. |
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,982 Likes: 3,497
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,497
Noxluxe
1,982
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 21, 2021 22:36:45 GMT
I think that the gifts and gestures a companion will appreciate are easy enough to intuit, if the player is remotely paying attention. It's not as if BioWare has ever been subtle about it. They might as well have the characters straight up say "My name is Isabela, I like boats, money, and generally being a selfish twat." And in Inquisition it basically doesn't matter, because there are no consequences in regard to approval either way. Nothing significant, anyway. Iron Bull is the only character who ever potentially turns on you, and approval has no impact on that decision. All character outcomes in DAI are based on specific decisions made at particular points, which is just fine, but it makes "approval" irrelevant. So? It's an RPG, not an open world in-depth dating simulator. The mechanic is just for making you feel like your character is making an effort to get closer to or show their appreciation for their companions and setting up some sweet moments between you and them. And to give you some agency over the relationships beyond the scripted dialogue points, just like you can go out of your way to do someone a favor or show them that they mean something to you in a myriad of ways in real life that the game could never predict, like a Primal Mage heating Leliana's bathwater or a Warrior emulating the way Sten cleans and maintains his sword and armor to show him that you want to do it properly as well. And companion approval in Inquisition affects the tone companions greet you with and how willing they are to indulge your questions about private matters, and the specific dialogue of several conversations, most famously Solas' attitude towards you - and the rest of the modern world by extension - in Trespasser. I certainly care about the tone of my player characters' relationships with their friends. I'd even say that it's one of the most important parts of any one of my various playthroughs, whether or not I'm worried that they'll eventually desert or betray me. Which of the NPCs my character is good at relating to tells me something about what kind of person I'm playing. We can definitely agree that those effects aren't very spectacular and could be a lot more important to the story, but in that case I'd say "The effects of companion approval should be more noticeable and expansive again and should affect the plot a little here and there.", not "Companion approval is obviously pointless, just drop it."
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 204 Likes: 339
inherit
11818
0
339
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
204
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 23, 2021 19:57:11 GMT
First, thanks pessimistpanda and Noxluxe for your input and illustrating how different gamers approach the same question in different ways.  I would generally agree with Noxluxe that we need fairly explicit feedback on how our words and actions affect our Companions. Imagine if combat had no damage numbers or condition text floating. The only way you knew you were being effective is when they fell over dead. As Noxluxe said, the Player doesn't have enough time in an intimately interactive state with the various Companions, the feedback whatever form it takes is a bridge to our character's understanding just like the numbers and state effects on opponents in combat is a bridge to our character's knowledge on just how much and how bad our opponents are hurting. That being said, pessimistpanda also has a point that different players have different motivations levels on different triggers. If I am hearing you correctly, panda, you would like Companion approval to have more visceral game consequences. Below, I have some possible ideas how this could be done. Please give them a read and/or add some of your own. 1: Companions with high approval rates get a boost to a given Stat. This was the way DA:O approached Companion approval and I present it here as a simple, convenient alternative. Sten believes you can help him answer the Arishok's question? He can execute feats of strength. Morrigan thinks she has a convenient patsy in the Warden? Her belief in her magical power grows stronger. I think this was not used in DA:I because the individual scores didn't have as great an effect on combat and equipment can easily far outstrip the approval effect. 2: Companions with a high approval rates increases the power of a unique Companion item. This is even older in some ways than number 1, reaching back to BG2 (or even BG1 if you count Xan's Moonblade) with a twist. I'm thinking of a unique item that grows in power based on approval levels (and probably level limited to keep abuse from occurring) that helps define a character. For example, what if Sten's Asala wasn't just a regular Steel sword but actually grew in power as he grew closer to the Protagonist? This would be like a Bianca for every Companion that you don't have to buy upgrades for. 3: Companions with high approval rates allow access to special 'heists'. This one is a different spin on Companion specific quests incorporating the sneaky elements that have been emphasized for DA4. These aren't just focused around the Companion but also are more filled with opportunities to get loot and try different quest styles. Just a few thoughts that came off the top of my head. Be glad to see more creative options. |
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,982 Likes: 3,497
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,497
Noxluxe
1,982
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 24, 2021 18:05:53 GMT
First, thanks pessimistpanda and Noxluxe for your input and illustrating how different gamers approach the same question in different ways.  I would generally agree with Noxluxe that we need fairly explicit feedback on how our words and actions affect our Companions. Imagine if combat had no damage numbers or condition text floating. The only way you knew you were being effective is when they fell over dead. As Noxluxe said, the Player doesn't have enough time in an intimately interactive state with the various Companions, the feedback whatever form it takes is a bridge to our character's understanding just like the numbers and state effects on opponents in combat is a bridge to our character's knowledge on just how much and how bad our opponents are hurting. That being said, pessimistpanda also has a point that different players have different motivations levels on different triggers. If I am hearing you correctly, panda, you would like Companion approval to have more visceral game consequences. Below, I have some possible ideas how this could be done. Please give them a read and/or add some of your own. 1: Companions with high approval rates get a boost to a given Stat. This was the way DA:O approached Companion approval and I present it here as a simple, convenient alternative. Sten believes you can help him answer the Arishok's question? He can execute feats of strength. Morrigan thinks she has a convenient patsy in the Warden? Her belief in her magical power grows stronger. I think this was not used in DA:I because the individual scores didn't have as great an effect on combat and equipment can easily far outstrip the approval effect. 2: Companions with a high approval rates increases the power of a unique Companion item. This is even older in some ways than number 1, reaching back to BG2 (or even BG1 if you count Xan's Moonblade) with a twist. I'm thinking of a unique item that grows in power based on approval levels (and probably level limited to keep abuse from occurring) that helps define a character. For example, what if Sten's Asala wasn't just a regular Steel sword but actually grew in power as he grew closer to the Protagonist? This would be like a Bianca for every Companion that you don't have to buy upgrades for. 3: Companions with high approval rates allow access to special 'heists'. This one is a different spin on Companion specific quests incorporating the sneaky elements that have been emphasized for DA4. These aren't just focused around the Companion but also are more filled with opportunities to get loot and try different quest styles. Just a few thoughts that came off the top of my head. Be glad to see more creative options. It's a little hard to say if your suggestions are directly addressed to Panda, or if others can comment on them too. Personally I'd be completely indifferent towards 1. I'd chafe at little at the plainly mechanical aspect of 2, although I definitely think that a weapon or item that happens to be central to a NPC's story arc, such as Asala, should be worth actually using once they get their hands on it. But that's more because going through a small story to find or assemble or forge a significant weapon only to find that it has completely mediocre stats is just anticlimactic and breaks immersion, and makes me feel a little ashamed of keeping Sten equipped with Yusaris or whatever because I don't want to gimp him, rather than because I want more super special items and item-related character backstories floating around. In my mind, making sure everybody is properly equipped and buying appropriate pieces of gear and changing weapons between party members as their abilities grow and develop in different directions is a pretty central part of the franchise. And it's just a classic Fantasy trope, the finding and earning of noteworthy equipment and deciding who will get the most out of each. Dividing the loot, in DnD terms. Several characters having iconic weapons or armors would rather undermine the idea of the party coordinating and adjudicating their resources together, like my elf Warrior passing his good mainhand dagger to Zevran when he starts using heavier weapons instead, or my Inquisitor working intensely with Harritt and Dagna to forge and enchant a magnificent dragonbone greatsword for Iron Bull to reward him for having struck the killing blow against the beast. Suggestion number 3 is the most appealing to me, though I'd much rather just have general twists and turns to main and side missions that are sometimes affected by companion approval. From my reading of Panda's complaint, the issue is more just the lack of varied behavior depending on approval. The companions don't feel like they have as much agency, and the relationships with them don't feel as organic, simply because they can't and don't really act on the amount of approval or disapproval you've accrued with them. I feel like DA:O did it best by having your conversational options advance noticeably with a given companion as they grew more respectful and appreciative of you, and instances of that loyalty sometimes being tested, such as Wynne and Leliana and Zevran potentially turning on you, or Alistair choosing to take the choice out of your hands and bite the Archdemon bullet himself. But the most important thing to me is that the apparent closeness of the relationship is reflected in and supported by the dialogue, that I can feel in the writing more or less what Blackwall thinks of me. The approval notifications are nice to have so you feel like you know where you have each companion at any given time, but they're no substitute for actual companion reactivity tailored to player behavior. And I totally agree that Inquisition in particular was a big step down in that regard. And for the record, do I usually play without the flowing numbers. Unlike companions' various feelings toward you, combat damage can relatively easily be translated visually via health bars or other cues, and even sometimes physical animations, and as Panda says the numbers do draw attention to the artifice of it.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,890
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Feb 28, 2021 18:49:56 GMT
Always loved those scenes in DA:O where we got cutscenes of the entire party together or working together. i.e. The party meeting post Landsmeet The Darkspawn attack on the Party camp itself The Final Push before the party splits in two at the final hours of the game etc It made feel as though all of them were behind me and not just the 3 I took with me wherever I went during Origins. I'd want to see more of that, having them all be present during important moments in the game or at least not that faraway. I loved that in DA2. You even had fewer enemies in the Hanged Man if Isabela and Varric were there, presumably because they're on good terms with the regulars! Or Zevran and Donnic showing up to fight Meredith.
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 204 Likes: 339
inherit
11818
0
339
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
204
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Mar 2, 2021 1:18:38 GMT
It's a little hard to say if your suggestions are directly addressed to Panda, or if others can comment on them too. Personally I'd be completely indifferent towards 1. Mostly to panda since she/he showed little interest in the Companion conversation form of Player reward. I'm generally with you in that the best kind of interaction reward is more interaction but I do grok that other players prefer a more visceral return. My fervent hope is for ways that marry both rward types together to enrich the experience for all. Which is a long-winded way of saying all comments are welcome. I'd chafe at little at the plainly mechanical aspect of 2, although I definitely think that a weapon or item that happens to be central to a NPC's story arc, such as Asala, should be worth actually using once they get their hands on it. But that's more because going through a small story to find or assemble or forge a significant weapon only to find that it has completely mediocre stats is just anticlimactic and breaks immersion, and makes me feel a little ashamed of keeping Sten equipped with Yusaris or whatever because I don't want to gimp him, rather than because I want more super special items and item-related character backstories floating around. In my mind, making sure everybody is properly equipped and buying appropriate pieces of gear and changing weapons between party members as their abilities grow and develop in different directions is a pretty central part of the franchise. And it's just a classic Fantasy trope, the finding and earning of noteworthy equipment and deciding who will get the most out of each. Dividing the loot, in DnD terms. Several characters having iconic weapons or armors would rather undermine the idea of the party coordinating and adjudicating their resources together, like my elf Warrior passing his good mainhand dagger to Zevran when he starts using heavier weapons instead, or my Inquisitor working intensely with Harritt and Dagna to forge and enchant a magnificent dragonbone greatsword for Iron Bull to reward him for having struck the killing blow against the beast. I would note that special equipment for Companions has never been limited to weapons or armor, though there is always a chance that something found could be better than what your Companion has at the time regardless. This is always going to be a weakness of this approach and the insanely powerful crafting system of DA:I would probably wreck it. Here's to hoping (in general) that system gets a sterner hand in DA4. Suggestion number 3 is the most appealing to me, though I'd much rather just have general twists and turns to main and side missions that are sometimes affected by companion approval. From my reading of Panda's complaint, the issue is more just the lack of varied behavior depending on approval. The companions don't feel like they have as much agency, and the relationships with them don't feel as organic, simply because they can't and don't really act on the amount of approval or disapproval you've accrued with them. I feel like DA:O did it best by having your conversational options advance noticeably with a given companion as they grew more respectful and appreciative of you, and instances of that loyalty sometimes being tested, such as Wynne and Leliana and Zevran potentially turning on you, or Alistair choosing to take the choice out of your hands and bite the Archdemon bullet himself. But the most important thing to me is that the apparent closeness of the relationship is reflected in and supported by the dialogue, that I can feel in the writing more or less what Blackwall thinks of me. The approval notifications are nice to have so you feel like you know where you have each companion at any given time, but they're no substitute for actual companion reactivity tailored to player behavior. And I totally agree that Inquisition in particular was a big step down in that regard. And for the record, do I usually play without the flowing numbers. Unlike companions' various feelings toward you, combat damage can relatively easily be translated visually via health bars or other cues, and even sometimes physical animations, and as Panda says the numbers do draw attention to the artifice of it. Thanks for your thoughts. Interesting thing, Wynne's break points (in the Tower and at the Urn of sacred Ashes) are completely unlinked to approval. Similarly, Lelania's and Alistair's responses are not based on approval perse but on hardening in the case of Lelania and active romance in the case of Alistair. The later, of course, requires a high approval for a female Warden but the guys aren't seeing that no matter how high the approval is. Regardless, what I would like to see from Companions is more types of reactions both to low and high approval states that don't necessarily involve combat or leaving. Think of some of the crazier things your friends have done to get your attention one way or the other. Some Companions should be able to have enough patience for multiple break points.
|
|
) All Companions have personal quests to help flesh them out and give the Player an opportunity to build rapport and curry favor with the Companion, but if you don't do anything with them in Camp, they just kind of sit on their hands. Can anyone really see Cassandra standing around waiting to get permission before going to find Lucius? Cole, likewise, is quite determined. Does anyone think if the Inquisitor hadn't said something he still wouldn't have demanded action with either and/or both of Solas and Varric? At appropriate (for the story, definitely not the Player 
Until then, developers have to create an illusion of reality while limiting the conversation to a few narrow paths to avoid using too many resources. On top of that, they have to give some sort of in-game feedback since the player even in game doesn't get to spend as much time with Companions as they would in a real life scenario. Still, Venhedis, you are absolutely right that DA:I moved back from DA:O in the complexity of making our Companions amenable to the Inquisitor. Probably a combination of the short development time due to engine issues and the less than enthusiastic feedback on the Friendship-Rivalry mechanic they tried in DA2. Here's a thought I had that is just one way it might be made better without breaking the proverbial bank.
I would generally agree with Noxluxe that we need fairly explicit feedback on how our words and actions affect our Companions. Imagine if combat had no damage numbers or condition text floating. The only way you knew you were being effective is when they fell over dead. 
I would generally agree with Noxluxe that we need fairly explicit feedback on how our words and actions affect our Companions. Imagine if combat had no damage numbers or condition text floating. The only way you knew you were being effective is when they fell over dead. 