Croatsky
N4
Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 1,993 Likes: 4,370
inherit
Amateur Reporter
2287
0
May 19, 2024 23:23:33 GMT
4,370
Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
1,993
December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
|
Post by Croatsky on Mar 2, 2021 11:11:43 GMT
I don't think Renegade/Paragon will return in the shape we know it. There might be two states such as action/delegate where you do most of the work yourself or you have your crew do it for you. I just don't believe a morality based one will return since morality is eye of the beholder territory and what might be the good approach for one person isn't for another or it becomes comical in the choice we are making. So something that can more easily be defined is what I am thinking will more likely happen then the old Paragon/Renegade system which I don't even think BioWare was that happy with especially when in the third game there were Paragon/Renegade/Reputation rewards. And in the case of ME3, reputation system kind of offset some of the issues of balancing out the renegade and paragon. Honestly, I wish it was a thing back in ME2, because depending on how you paced your playthrough, you could find yourself screwed out of resolving one of the obligatory companion conflicts even if you were perfectly thorough with their dialogue. You do get an option to make Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack loyal again after the conflict, if you failed to resolve it to keep both loyal.
So there is a failsafe to make them loyal again afterwards. But that's kind of a problem, it's an override for a problematic morality system. One that BioWare thankfully ditched in MEA.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,306
themikefest
14,836
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Mar 2, 2021 12:22:22 GMT
But it wasn't specifically being a Paragon that caused those bad results. You got there by screwing up in ways unrelated to alignment. What did Shepard do that you believe she/he screwed up?
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Mar 2, 2021 12:38:28 GMT
And in the case of ME3, reputation system kind of offset some of the issues of balancing out the renegade and paragon. Honestly, I wish it was a thing back in ME2, because depending on how you paced your playthrough, you could find yourself screwed out of resolving one of the obligatory companion conflicts even if you were perfectly thorough with their dialogue. You do get an option to make Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack loyal again after the conflict, if you failed to resolve it to keep both loyal.
So there is a failsafe to make them loyal again afterwards. But that's kind of a problem, it's an override for a problematic morality system. One that BioWare thankfully ditched in MEA.
It's at least not a total override, as it does at least lock out their romances if you side with one or the other. Only affects Mshep, but it is something. Failing the Tali/Legion check makes getting the ceasefire between the geth and quarians more difficult in ME3. If you also rewrote instead of destroyed the Heretic geth (a scant example of where the Paragon choice is technically the wrong one), or got Tali exiled, it makes peace impossible. I never minded the P/R system and preferred it to MEA (interrupts aside, the prompts telling what action you are about to take was helpful in MEA), albeit in 2 it was too strict to the point of punishing not having an ME1 import.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Mar 2, 2021 12:56:00 GMT
But it wasn't specifically being a Paragon that caused those bad results. You got there by screwing up in ways unrelated to alignment. What did Shepard do that you believe she/he screwed up? Presumably, anything that resulted in a character’s death that could otherwise have been avoided. Like, never visiting the Virmire survivor in Huerta Memorial means you can’t talk them down in the standoff in the coup, or choosing the worst character for a specific role in the suicide mission, but these aren’t related to Paragon or Renegade. The point is that the alignment in and of itself has little to do with the deaths of Shepard’s crew.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,306
themikefest
14,836
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Mar 2, 2021 14:10:10 GMT
Presumably, anything that resulted in a character’s death that could otherwise have been avoided. Take a look at Vakarian. Shepard knows him from chasing Saren. She/he would never expect the turian to a let a distraction cause him to lose focus on a mission. If made fireteam leader, a squadmate will die at the door, and he will die as 2nd fireteam leader. It's hard to believe that would happen since the guy was in the military for however long, and with C-Sec for however long. The same with all the other squadmates. If they can't put aside something that hasn't been dealt with, that causes them to lose focus, then do you want them on your roster? You do know they can still die, right?
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Mar 2, 2021 17:37:15 GMT
Presumably, anything that resulted in a character’s death that could otherwise have been avoided. Take a look at Vakarian. Shepard knows him from chasing Saren. She/he would never expect the turian to a let a distraction cause him to lose focus on a mission. If made fireteam leader, a squadmate will die at the door, and he will die as 2nd fireteam leader. It's hard to believe that would happen since the guy was in the military for however long, and with C-Sec for however long. The same with all the other squadmates. If they can't put aside something that hasn't been dealt with, that causes them to lose focus, then do you want them on your roster? You do know they can still die, right? None of that is relevant. This isn’t a story, character or even role-playing matter; it’s simply a matter of the game mechanics. Your point on being able to lose everyone in a Paragon playthrough is moot for the simple reason that the options that actually result in these deaths operate independently of the morality system. The simple acts of skipping a loyalty mission or selecting the wrong role for the suicide mission is neither Renegade or Paragon, but the loyalty mechanic makes it so that the character will likely die depending on the arrangement of roles, but then still die in ME3 for the simple act of being disloyal there too (mysterious disappearance for ignoring all side quests notwithstanding). As for the VS standoff, I know they can still die, but if you meet the requirements to talk them down, you’re actively choosing to kill them, and it’s certainly not a Paragon option.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,306
themikefest
14,836
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Mar 2, 2021 17:54:12 GMT
None of that is relevant. This isn’t a story, character or even role-playing matter; it’s simply a matter of the game mechanics. Your point on being able to lose everyone in a Paragon playthrough is moot for the simple reason that the options that actually result in these deaths operate independently of the morality system. The simple acts of skipping a loyalty mission or selecting the wrong role for the suicide mission is neither Renegade or Paragon, but the loyalty mechanic makes it so that the character will likely die depending on the arrangement of roles, but then still die in ME3 for the simple act of being disloyal there too (mysterious disappearance for ignoring all side quests notwithstanding) But it is relevent. It shows that a paragon can have a worse playthrough than a renegade. If you want to see it as Shepard wanting to shoot A/K, go ahead. I don't agree. Shepard ignoring the first interrupt likely means he/she is surprised A/K would have their weapon pointed at him/her. Then on the 2nd interrupt, Shepard hesitates because he/she doesn't want to shoot A/K, but because of that, a squadmate shoots A/K.
|
|
inherit
3408
0
Jun 28, 2021 11:43:33 GMT
206
marshalmoriarty
126
February 2017
marshalmoriarty
|
Post by marshalmoriarty on Mar 3, 2021 0:08:01 GMT
The interrupts also are an awful gimmick, at least in terms of how they are executed because the only choice it presents is 'Do you want to do something cool? You do don't you? Go on, go onnn, don't be a boring spoilsport now' before eventually giving you a 'Hmph, be that way then...' if you don't. Whether Paragon or Renegade, Shepard gets this 'I've had an idea to do something really ace' look. Its utterly ridiculous and refusing the interrupts means throwing the baby out with the bathwater as Sheperd will drop the issue entirely instead of accomplishing the same thing in a less overly dramatic way.
I would also point out that certainly at launch, ME2 generated significant pushback from Paragon players of ME1 who felt the whole premise of ME2 felt like it strongarmed them into playing a Renegade interpretation of Sheperd through his actions in agreeing to work with Cerberus despite there being no evidence of Reaper involvement until Horizon, his flying their colours being the equivalent of giving free PR and cover to an xenophobic terrorist organisation, his unrealistic willingness to abandon his career of over a decade of distinguished service, home, friends and life to zealously investigate crimes outside his jurisdiction on the off chance the Reapers are involved. I can buy Renegade Sheperd doing this but not Paragon Sheperd.
The flimsy 'oh your friends are far too busy to hang with you anymore' from TIM, the only consultation or reflection on such a life changing decision being an outrageously retconned and continuity breaking visit to the Council who nevertheless state the only reason they won't help him openly is because he's working with Cerberus making it an entirely circular argument on both sides and is also why Anderson won't tell him that he actually *is* investigating the matter already and would have brought him in on it had he not been with Cerberus... It was all so railroaded and poorly executed if you're a Paragon player having to spend the whole game getting 'Hey, we thought Cerberus were total bastards but your heroic actions have set us straight on that' and barring 1 measely side mission having to either do side quests that get money, equipment and contacts for Cerberus or... not doing any side quests. To say nothing of having to recruit Jack, having to cause a fatal riot to free her, allowing a self confessed pirate and murderer get away with no punishment and even agreeing to her becoming a teacher... Etc etc etc.
The upshot is that Paragon players have always had plenty to be annoyed about too. Before the patch for the comic at the start of ME2 the default Sheperd was a pure Renegade in ME1. Killed Wrex, let the Council die, the whole business. And boy does it ever show in ME2's general tone and the whole premise. Sheperd's enforced decisions, the overall tone of the Citadel bar 2 shops, its ll entirely consistent with Renegade Sheperd and utterly jarring for Paragon Sheperd because it was yet another example of Bioware saying 'Huh, you chose Paragon choices in ME1... well, we'll throw you some bones but that's really not the way we're going with this'. Only to eventually realize that over 90% of players are Paragons and flew to the extreme opposite end of the Spectrum in ME3 again disrupting continuity but for the Renegade players this time...
Lastly, the Miranda\Jack dispute is always based on a % of the total points. Both the argument itself and the 'Can't we all be friends again' 2nd attempt. I've had maxed Paragon and still couldn't unlock either attempt even after going Full Paragon for the whole rest of the game and dlcs after I failed the 1st attempt. The only solution I found was to resolve early, saving the missions where I choose Renegade until later as much as possible. Interestingly, I've never had this problem with Tali\Legion so the % split must be considerably more forgiving for that one.
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Mar 4, 2021 10:53:08 GMT
i agree, generally i don't like alignment in general, there should be just choices. but yeah, i agree that the renegade-like choice should at times prove to be the better option, even if cold. i would further argue that there's need to be more altruistic choices (paragon) that end up being a mistake. like, helping kirahhe team, you divert from the mission to help them, but it have zero effect on the mission, so you have no reason not to do it (especially if you are a completionist xD) but if it ended up affecting the mission saving the salarian team would feel bittersweet.
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Mar 4, 2021 10:57:31 GMT
No they won't. Namely because I doubt they're going back to Paragon/Renegade choices. They'll almost certainly continue what they've established with DAI and MEA, which is a much better system. this. part of why i love dragon age so much is that it doesn't have alignment, there is no good or evil choices, just choices. the right option is not always clear and can be debated. you can act out of greed but end up doing a good thing, or trying to be altruistic but end up fucking things up.
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Mar 4, 2021 11:09:15 GMT
None of that is relevant. This isn’t a story, character or even role-playing matter; it’s simply a matter of the game mechanics. Your point on being able to lose everyone in a Paragon playthrough is moot for the simple reason that the options that actually result in these deaths operate independently of the morality system. The simple acts of skipping a loyalty mission or selecting the wrong role for the suicide mission is neither Renegade or Paragon, but the loyalty mechanic makes it so that the character will likely die depending on the arrangement of roles, but then still die in ME3 for the simple act of being disloyal there too (mysterious disappearance for ignoring all side quests notwithstanding) But it is relevant. It shows that a paragon can have a worse playthrough than a renegade. but if the same can happen both as paragon and as renegade, the point they are making and you seem to ignore is that it has nothing to do with the morality system. playing paragon and loosing your team has nothing to do with being paragon because losing them doesn't come from making paragon choices. likewise you can play paragon and keep all your team, renegade and lose them, or renegade and keep them. keeping or losing companions is completely separated from playing paragon or renegade, making it unrelated.
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Mar 4, 2021 11:20:10 GMT
The interrupts also are an awful gimmick, at least in terms of how they are executed because the only choice it presents is 'Do you want to do something cool? You do don't you? Go on, go onnn, don't be a boring spoilsport now' before eventually giving you a 'Hmph, be that way then...' if you don't. Whether Paragon or Renegade, Shepard gets this 'I've had an idea to do something really ace' look. Its utterly ridiculous and refusing the interrupts means throwing the baby out with the bathwater as Sheperd will drop the issue entirely instead of accomplishing the same thing in a less overly dramatic way. andromeda did it well, for one they told you what the action was, and there it wasn't about interrupt but rather making a spur of the moment decision; which is more realistic because sometimes you don't have time to choose what to do and have to make an decision right there and then. for example, one of the bad guys started to walk away and you had to choose if you want to let her go or shoot her, now usually in video games you will have all the time you need to choose which option but tehre there was a time limit, and i ended up shooting her because i didn't have a lot of time to weigh in the pros and cons and had to act. if it wasn't a timed thing i might have let her go, but not having to act right there and then is what made it exciting and realistic.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
24,306
themikefest
14,836
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Mar 4, 2021 14:07:55 GMT
But it is relevant. It shows that a paragon can have a worse playthrough than a renegade. but if the same can happen both as paragon and as renegade, the point they are making and you seem to ignore is that it has nothing to do with the morality system. playing paragon and loosing your team has nothing to do with being paragon because losing them doesn't come from making paragon choices. likewise you can play paragon and keep all your team, renegade and lose them, or renegade and keep them. keeping or losing companions is completely separated from playing paragon or renegade, making it unrelated. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just saying a paragon Shepard can have a worse playthrough than a renegade Shepard. Look at Wrex on Virmire. Depending on what dialogue is chosen, Shepard can get paragon points for Wrex being killed. How cool is that? I've always thought killing Wrex should be paragon. Look at the council. Depending on the choice, the player gets both paragon and renegade points. Again, I view letting the council die as a good thing. In ME2, why is it paragon to withhold information about what Tali's father did to get her loyalty? I always turn over the information. Why is threatening the elcor a paragon thing? Why is pistol whipping that guy in Overlord a paragon thing?
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Mar 4, 2021 16:23:12 GMT
but if the same can happen both as paragon and as renegade, the point they are making and you seem to ignore is that it has nothing to do with the morality system. playing paragon and loosing your team has nothing to do with being paragon because losing them doesn't come from making paragon choices. likewise you can play paragon and keep all your team, renegade and lose them, or renegade and keep them. keeping or losing companions is completely separated from playing paragon or renegade, making it unrelated. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just saying a paragon Shepard can have a worse playthrough than a renegade Shepard. Look at Wrex on Virmire. Depending on what dialogue is chosen, Shepard can get paragon points for Wrex being killed. How cool is that? I've always thought killing Wrex should be paragon. Look at the council. Depending on the choice, the player gets both paragon and renegade points. Again, I view letting the council die as a good thing. In ME2, why is it paragon to withhold information about what Tali's father did to get her loyalty? I always turn over the information. Why is threatening the elcor a paragon thing? Why is pistol whipping that guy in Overlord a paragon thing? no one arguing against that, yes paragon can have worse playthrough than renegade but being paragon has nothing to do it, because the decision that lead to good or bad outcomes are NOT paragon/renegade based. killing wrex for example is NOT paragon/renegade based so being paragon or renegade have zero to do with it.
|
|
inherit
3408
0
Jun 28, 2021 11:43:33 GMT
206
marshalmoriarty
126
February 2017
marshalmoriarty
|
Post by marshalmoriarty on Mar 5, 2021 0:59:51 GMT
Blaze - I agree that is the preferred option. As I said its the execution of the system that is flawed. Barring the obviously jarring 'punch an unarmed civilian reporter out of nowhere' nonsense, the interrupts are almost entirely 'do you want to do something cool\heroic\badass'. And that's not a choice because refusing is always made to feel like you're being a party pooping grouch. They clearly *want* you to do them and you can practically hear thunderous applause and hooting whenever you do. I just want more nuance and not feel I have to break character to do the nearest acceptable version of what I feel my Sheperd would do.
For example I feel that killing Sgt Kathka before the attack on Garrus or taking out that Eclipse merc Captain on Ilium you get the drop on (no pun intended) makes more sense than letting them live and potentially making life more difficult for youself. I just object to Sheperd only being able to do it this overly dramatic and casually brutal way and thus triggering cheesy one liners and gleefully scenery chewing cowboy cop antics. The Renegade dialogue lines are frequently waaay over the top in sheer nastiness and Jennifer Hale's more expresive performances can make it jarring to ever switch between Paragon and Renegade as she suddenly goes from 0 to 100 and back again on the pyscho pistol packing cowgirl scale.
It shouldn't be so binary. Just because I think taking these guys out is the safer, smarter play doesn't suddenly make me some cheerfully psychotic nutcase. It would be crazy to let either of those guys go though. And I wholeheartedly endorse the DA2 personality system on this as I have always done. DA2 had so many good innovations that were abandoned in typical Bioware style when the game met resistence (due entirely to its low budget and short dev time). I have no doubt they will also remove the things MEA did right.
|
|
inherit
2550
0
1,958
majesticjazz
2,015
January 2017
majesticjazz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by majesticjazz on Mar 27, 2021 3:03:48 GMT
No, they won't. Because here's the thing: the renegade choices were always like the dark side choices in KOTOR especially in ME1. For example a human backed/led council makes the other races not trust humanity especially when humanity needs them in ME3. I mean why should they? That isn't bad storytelling that is how people like them will react in the real world. The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. You have it all wrong. If you were around before ME1 came out Bioware themselves compared Paragon to Captain Kirk and Renegade to Jack Bauer. Renegade was not the darkside choice because no matter hoe Renegade you are, Shepard is still the hero and savior of the Galaxy. In KOTOR if you go darkside, you are the villain of the galaxy and leading it into dark times. Shepard cannot betray and go against the Alliance. Shepard cannot ally with the Reapers in ME3 and assist in harvesting the Galaxy. Paragon Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. Renegade Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 27, 2021 4:19:42 GMT
There are plenty of people who thought and still think that all "Renegade" options are the right choices, even when those choices include murdering allies or committing genocide, so I don't see the issue. If you think a choice is evil, don't make it. I did a mix of Paragon and Renegade on my playthrough of the MET and I didn't feel like my Shepard was inconsistent at all.
|
|
Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,919 Likes: 8,950
inherit
1561
0
8,950
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,919
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
4392
882
|
Post by Sanunes on Mar 27, 2021 4:39:04 GMT
No, they won't. Because here's the thing: the renegade choices were always like the dark side choices in KOTOR especially in ME1. For example a human backed/led council makes the other races not trust humanity especially when humanity needs them in ME3. I mean why should they? That isn't bad storytelling that is how people like them will react in the real world. The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. You have it all wrong. If you were around before ME1 came out Bioware themselves compared Paragon to Captain Kirk and Renegade to Jack Bauer. Renegade was not the darkside choice because no matter hoe Renegade you are, Shepard is still the hero and savior of the Galaxy. In KOTOR if you go darkside, you are the villain of the galaxy and leading it into dark times. Shepard cannot betray and go against the Alliance. Shepard cannot ally with the Reapers in ME3 and assist in harvesting the Galaxy. Paragon Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. Renegade Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. That is how I remember it as well. There wasn't a good or evil aspect to it, but instead how Shepard approached the situation. With ME2 it was more about morality then approach, but I think that was BioWare feeding off the feedback and discussions around ME1 and adapting ME2 to that.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,869 Likes: 3,487
inherit
9886
0
May 19, 2024 21:59:27 GMT
3,487
ahglock
2,869
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Mar 27, 2021 4:56:28 GMT
No, they won't. Because here's the thing: the renegade choices were always like the dark side choices in KOTOR especially in ME1. For example a human backed/led council makes the other races not trust humanity especially when humanity needs them in ME3. I mean why should they? That isn't bad storytelling that is how people like them will react in the real world. The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. You have it all wrong. If you were around before ME1 came out Bioware themselves compared Paragon to Captain Kirk and Renegade to Jack Bauer. Renegade was not the darkside choice because no matter hoe Renegade you are, Shepard is still the hero and savior of the Galaxy. In KOTOR if you go darkside, you are the villain of the galaxy and leading it into dark times. Shepard cannot betray and go against the Alliance. Shepard cannot ally with the Reapers in ME3 and assist in harvesting the Galaxy. Paragon Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. Renegade Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy.
Yup, you in theory are always doing the right thing. The methods to get there were philosophically different. Its my favorite system. I never liked dark side as it was more kick your puppy, dominate the galaxy crap. Renegade though was just ruthless to get the job done in order to save people. Did they screrw up or throw in a few outside the box renegade/paragon things like punching a reporter, sure but overall it was solid. And the off the wall things imo added to its charm, you needed a break from it for something silly now and then. The reporter one i only did once to see it but there were a couple i did every play through just for the comedy.
|
|
inherit
8902
0
2,692
obbie1984
840
July 2017
obbie1984
|
Post by obbie1984 on Mar 27, 2021 9:26:27 GMT
I'm not sure what they will do in future games, but they need to find a better balance. The trilogy did a decent job. The best playthroughs are playing as a renegade with a heart or a paragon with a backbone. However it had some issues. The series definitely seems to gravitate more towards paragon. However, I wish the game wouldn't treat characters like Liara as my best friend. If you do many things she dislikes or if you flat out ignore her, she still acts like you are her bestie. This is among other instances as well.
They also need to improve whatever was in MEA. I chose mostly serious and diplomatic answers because the "funny" lines were atrocious. Even then they still were bad. My biggest issue is how big of a putz Ryder was forced to be. I remember one instance where Ryder tells two looters that "looting is wrong" like a Saturday morning kids special. When the looters curse him off, Ryder just walks away like a loser. There is no option to deal with this situation in another manner. You also cannot do stuff like kick Liam off your ship, and generally call out some of your team-mates.
I also wish squadmates chimed in more. Dragon Age did it so well in the first two games. They do talk once in a while, but its not enough. ME squadmates just stand around and don't have much issues with stuff that is going on. For example, Samara will be fine leaving innocents to die in Zaeed's loyalty mission or nice girl Kasumi will have no problem with leaving the Salarian to choke on his own blood in Thane's loyalty mission.
|
|
wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 2,469
inherit
1492
0
2,469
wright1978
1,632
Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
September 2016
wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
8,116
2073
|
Post by wright1978 on Mar 27, 2021 10:57:06 GMT
Well i just hope for the return of the Paragon/Renegade system, ideally with option to be more neutral too like Me1/Me2 offered. I really don't want a repeat of the garbage that was Professional/Logical/casual/emotional in Andromeda.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Mar 27, 2021 11:20:10 GMT
No, they won't. Because here's the thing: the renegade choices were always like the dark side choices in KOTOR especially in ME1. For example a human backed/led council makes the other races not trust humanity especially when humanity needs them in ME3. I mean why should they? That isn't bad storytelling that is how people like them will react in the real world. The renegade path is basically telling "You make a bad decision it will always end badly for you." That is the point of the Renegade path. You have it all wrong. If you were around before ME1 came out Bioware themselves compared Paragon to Captain Kirk and Renegade to Jack Bauer. Renegade was not the darkside choice because no matter hoe Renegade you are, Shepard is still the hero and savior of the Galaxy. In KOTOR if you go darkside, you are the villain of the galaxy and leading it into dark times. Shepard cannot betray and go against the Alliance. Shepard cannot ally with the Reapers in ME3 and assist in harvesting the Galaxy. Paragon Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. Renegade Shepard is an Alliance war hero and counsil Spectre that saves the galaxy. It doesn’t matter to what extent the morality system actually takes you; it’s simply the design of it that basically makes it like the light/dark side system of KOTOR, since it’s not so much good vs evil as it is nice guy vs jerk. In Dragon Age: Origins, I could be a murderous bastard that needlessly kills or threatens as many possible. I made a murder city elf that did what he could to make every bad decision, but the game still treated my character as a big hero in the end, because through all of it, the game still required defeating the evil monsters to complete it. BioWare might have tried to draw a parallel between Kirk and Bauer, but functionally, it was very much reminiscent of the system in Star Wars, only this time on a tighter leash.
|
|
Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,887 Likes: 3,061
inherit
634
0
May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
3,061
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,887
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
|
Post by Cyberstrike on Mar 28, 2021 13:24:44 GMT
My problem with the Renegade/Paragon interrupts especially in ME3 were that some like telling salarian that "curing the genophage will mean nothing if the Reapers win." doesn't feel like a renegade or a paragon thing to say. It feels like Shepard is stating a simple and harsh truth and it's a natural comeback to her so-called "argument" I know a lot of people don't like the auto-dialogue in ME3 but in this case it would've made sense to just have as auto-dialogue because it's not a renegade or a paragon statement but it's a statement of fact. It feels like a renegade interrupt for no other reason than just to have an interrupt there.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,869 Likes: 3,487
inherit
9886
0
May 19, 2024 21:59:27 GMT
3,487
ahglock
2,869
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Mar 28, 2021 14:56:56 GMT
My problem with the Renegade/Paragon interrupts especially in ME3 were that some like telling salarian that "curing the genophage will mean nothing if the Reapers win." doesn't feel like a renegade or a paragon thing to say. It feels like Shepard is stating a simple and harsh truth and it's a natural comeback to her so-called "argument" I know a lot of people don't like the auto-dialogue in ME3 but in this case it would've made sense to just have as auto-dialogue because it's not a renegade or a paragon statement but it's a statement of fact. It feels like a renegade interrupt for no other reason than just to have an interrupt there. I disagree on that specific.
A renegade thought might be defeating the reapers will mean nothing if the genophage is fixed. Bioware was just flat out dumb in there Krogan design, birthing in the thousands, of near immortal violent battlesaurs. And the cure gets that back full steam. If they wanted to sell more people on curing it through rational thought instead of emotions, they would have made the cure something that stopped the still births but had them only birthing one or 2 kids.
Heck that could have been the argument where 1 side wanted a full cure, restoring them to their natural state, the other side was fine modifying the genophage so it ended the still borns and just reduced the birth rate to a normal number. Instead they went full emotion and hoped the player had memory holed their birth rates and most of their history. Which apparently worked as most people cured the genophage.
|
|
Radec
N3
Posts: 614 Likes: 1,317
inherit
10019
0
1,317
Radec
614
Mar 23, 2018 18:30:38 GMT
March 2018
radec
|
Post by Radec on Mar 28, 2021 15:42:37 GMT
The genophage was made pointlessly cruel just to make the mathematically idiotic Paragon option seem viable from an emotional perspective.
Just modify the genome to have the female krogan lay 1 egg a year instead of 1000 ffs.
Mordin puts all this effort into modifying their genophage to be precisely the number it needs to be to maintain their population at pre industrial growth levels, but can't remove the 99.9% stillborns?
|
|