ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Mar 28, 2021 17:28:22 GMT
The genophage was made pointlessly cruel just to make the mathematically idiotic Paragon option seem viable from an emotional perspective. Just modify the genome to have the female krogan lay 1 egg a year instead of 1000 ffs. Mordin puts all this effort into modifying their genophage to be precisely the number it needs to be to maintain their population at pre industrial growth levels, but can't remove the 99.9% stillborns? kind of reminds me of overlord.
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Post by Radec on Mar 28, 2021 19:51:48 GMT
The genophage was made pointlessly cruel just to make the mathematically idiotic Paragon option seem viable from an emotional perspective. Just modify the genome to have the female krogan lay 1 egg a year instead of 1000 ffs. Mordin puts all this effort into modifying their genophage to be precisely the number it needs to be to maintain their population at pre industrial growth levels, but can't remove the 99.9% stillborns? kind of reminds me of overlord. Yeah, and the ME3 geth getting woobiefied. I was already onboard with Legion's perspective in ME2 being the correct one. Then it was rewritten into a cringe pinnochio to emotionally appeal to dumb dumbs, and I shot it out of spite for how the writer was insulting my intelligence.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2021 21:33:03 GMT
The genophage was made pointlessly cruel just to make the mathematically idiotic Paragon option seem viable from an emotional perspective. Just modify the genome to have the female krogan lay 1 egg a year instead of 1000 ffs. Mordin puts all this effort into modifying their genophage to be precisely the number it needs to be to maintain their population at pre industrial growth levels, but can't remove the 99.9% stillborns? Wait a minute. ME2 had to support the krogan emotional reaction to the genophage that was established in ME1, didn't it? If it had worked the way you propose, does the collapse of krogan culture make any sense?
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Post by Radec on Mar 28, 2021 22:08:38 GMT
The genophage was made pointlessly cruel just to make the mathematically idiotic Paragon option seem viable from an emotional perspective. Just modify the genome to have the female krogan lay 1 egg a year instead of 1000 ffs. Mordin puts all this effort into modifying their genophage to be precisely the number it needs to be to maintain their population at pre industrial growth levels, but can't remove the 99.9% stillborns? Wait a minute. ME2 had to support the krogan emotional reaction to the genophage that was established in ME1, didn't it? If it had worked the way you propose, does the collapse of krogan culture make any sense? I got the impression they were simply being self interested whiners about it like everyone else in the setting with their pet issues. "We were tools for the Council once. To thank us for wiping out the Rachni they neutered us all". No Wrex, they didn't actually neuter you (or you'd all be dead already) and it wasn't because you "wiped out the Rachni", its because you aggressively started a war and tried to take everyone else's planets for lebensraum rather than implement birth control. (As the kicker I right after listening to Wrex mope about how unfair the genophage is and how hopeless it is to try and work around it, I go over to Tali and she explains how her government mandates birth control to not exceed their fleet's carrying capacity) Given that context, I read the krogan reactions to the genophage the same as how the quarians are emotional and stubbornly living a shitty existence over their totally avoidable homeworld thing too, or the batarians being salty about getting kicked out of the Citadel because of state sponsoring terrorism and slavery. But then the conflict ends up being a forced dichotomy between a self destructive appeal to nature fallacy (Paragon) or a medical solution that is conveniently both advanced and cruel in the specific details where the plot requires it.
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Post by andydandymandy on Mar 28, 2021 23:32:21 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda gets rid of the Paragon/Renegade system but doesn't really replace it with anything. I never felt like I could make a Ryder in a second playthrough feel different enough from my previous playthrough I can with Shepard and the original trilogy. I am not sure how that is really "better" then what we had before.
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Post by michaeln7 on Mar 29, 2021 2:02:07 GMT
A point that is easily overlooked is that Paragon/Renegade isn't just "nice/mean", though that certainly holds weight.
A Paragon abides by the law, but is willing to bend the rules for the "greater good", or will at least try to smooth it over. A Renegade doesn't care about the law; they won't just break it because they can, but if their goal would otherwise be barred by the law, they won't hesitate to break it.
A Paragon wants to get along with everyone, or at least avoid violence, but WILL NOT abide terrorism/abuse. It's why a Paragon constantly bad-mouths Cerberus in ME2, as well as going along with the Council in ME2 despite their unwillingness to help.
The interrupt to pistol-whip Archer in "Overlord" is a prime example of how that interrupt is almost pure Paragon: Here's a scientist who disregarded ethical considerations and subjected HIS OWN BROTHER to a process that is torturous in the extreme, all while said brother is pleading for it to "Please, make it stop." A Renegade is not concerned about the needs of the one, all the Renegade sees is how "Overlord" could bear fruit in fighting the geth.
Another way to look at Paragon/Renegade is "cooperative/survivalist". A Paragon wants to cooperate with others for mutual benefit, a Renegade won't turn down help, but if you're in their way, they'll do what they have to to survive.
A Paragon believes that all lives matter, human or alien. The Paragon dialogue near the end of "Citadel" encapsulates that, when Shepard defies the clone who accuses Shepard of 'losing sight of human interests' or such. The interrupt to save Samara in ME3 is Paragon because Shepard values Samara's life, and that suicide is not a good outcome. A Renegade believes that the goal matters, regardless of the immediate cost. The interrupt to shoot Udina in ME3 is Renegade because while he's still a councilor, he's threatening the others, so the math is basically "2 councilors is better than none".
I have no doubt there are those who are going to argue with me to oblivion and back about this, but all I see from this is that the Paragon/Renegade system is a brilliant morality system that accounts for universal reality but also individual context and situation.
From my own experiences, my Shepard's morality ends up looking like a Star Trek nacelle, 1 section Renegade and the others Paragon.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Mar 29, 2021 4:28:22 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda gets rid of the Paragon/Renegade system but doesn't really replace it with anything. I never felt like I could make a Ryder in a second playthrough feel different enough from my previous playthrough I can with Shepard and the original trilogy. I am not sure how that is really "better" then what we had before.
I said it earlier but paragon/renegade represents a philosophy or belief system. MEA represents more of a mood. What this did is it made Ryder far more set of a character than Shepard. Everybody can be logical, professional, etc and they usually will be to some degree or another multiple times a day. the P/R system was at least attempting to represent a more core belief system to decide how you handle problems. It failed in that multiple times and it could create other issues where Shepard felt a bit more disjointed if you switched around. Ryder always feels the same hes just maybe a bit snarky right now. Both systems have their positive and negative aspects, I personally prefer the P/R system by a large margin.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 29, 2021 12:10:42 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda gets rid of the Paragon/Renegade system but doesn't really replace it with anything. I never felt like I could make a Ryder in a second playthrough feel different enough from my previous playthrough I can with Shepard and the original trilogy. I am not sure how that is really "better" then what we had before.
I said it earlier but paragon/renegade represents a philosophy or belief system. MEA represents more of a mood. What this did is it made Ryder far more set of a character than Shepard. Everybody can be logical, professional, etc and they usually will be to some degree or another multiple times a day. the P/R system was at least attempting to represent a more core belief system to decide how you handle problems. It failed in that multiple times and it could create other issues where Shepard felt a bit more disjointed if you switched around. Ryder always feels the same hes just maybe a bit snarky right now. Both systems have their positive and negative aspects, I personally prefer the P/R system by a large margin.
Yeah while there were rare moments i reloaded based on paragon/neutral/renegade because the response wasn't what i would have wanted i loved the freedom it allowed in creating my character. To me it's another case of the direction of travel starts with (shep is too Bricklike) and that results in a narrow mood system that fences the player character in.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2021 18:34:09 GMT
Wait a minute. ME2 had to support the krogan emotional reaction to the genophage that was established in ME1, didn't it? If it had worked the way you propose, does the collapse of krogan culture make any sense? I got the impression they were simply being self interested whiners about it like everyone else in the setting with their pet issues. "We were tools for the Council once. To thank us for wiping out the Rachni they neutered us all". No Wrex, they didn't actually neuter you (or you'd all be dead already) and it wasn't because you "wiped out the Rachni", its because you aggressively started a war and tried to take everyone else's planets for lebensraum rather than implement birth control. (As the kicker I right after listening to Wrex mope about how unfair the genophage is and how hopeless it is to try and work around it, I go over to Tali and she explains how her government mandates birth control to not exceed their fleet's carrying capacity) Given that context, I read the krogan reactions to the genophage the same as how the quarians are emotional and stubbornly living a shitty existence over their totally avoidable homeworld thing too, or the batarians being salty about getting kicked out of the Citadel because of state sponsoring terrorism and slavery. But then the conflict ends up being a forced dichotomy between a self destructive appeal to nature fallacy (Paragon) or a medical solution that is conveniently both advanced and cruel in the specific details where the plot requires it. *shrugs* I'm not interested in defending the world-building here. (I think ME1 is very overrated in this regard.) I'm just saying that your proposal misses the actual problem. Having the genophage be more sensible and less gratuitously painful isn't an improvement, since it renders the setting even less coherent than it already is. The facts that you don't like were established in ME1. ME2 conformed to them.
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Post by Radec on Mar 30, 2021 18:29:28 GMT
I got the impression they were simply being self interested whiners about it like everyone else in the setting with their pet issues. "We were tools for the Council once. To thank us for wiping out the Rachni they neutered us all". No Wrex, they didn't actually neuter you (or you'd all be dead already) and it wasn't because you "wiped out the Rachni", its because you aggressively started a war and tried to take everyone else's planets for lebensraum rather than implement birth control. (As the kicker I right after listening to Wrex mope about how unfair the genophage is and how hopeless it is to try and work around it, I go over to Tali and she explains how her government mandates birth control to not exceed their fleet's carrying capacity) Given that context, I read the krogan reactions to the genophage the same as how the quarians are emotional and stubbornly living a shitty existence over their totally avoidable homeworld thing too, or the batarians being salty about getting kicked out of the Citadel because of state sponsoring terrorism and slavery. But then the conflict ends up being a forced dichotomy between a self destructive appeal to nature fallacy (Paragon) or a medical solution that is conveniently both advanced and cruel in the specific details where the plot requires it. *shrugs* I'm not interested in defending the world-building here. (I think ME1 is very overrated in this regard.) I'm just saying that your proposal misses the actual problem. Having the genophage be more sensible and less gratuitously painful isn't an improvement, since it renders the setting even less coherent than it already is. The facts that you don't like were established in ME1. ME2 conformed to them. I don't agree. One option (support the genophage) shouldn't be given additional arbitrary downsides that don't make sense just because the hero Paragon path that the writer prefers is stupid due to said writers' (and by extension some characters' within the story) inability to do math. That makes the setting appear less coherent. In stories like this with a branching narrative that is ostensibly not intended to be presented as "good and evil" (e.g. Star Wars Light vs Dark side), options should be presented as neutrally and close to effectively viable as possible, or should have some sort of balance over the course of the narrative (sometimes idealistic choices are superior, sometimes not). The genophage is already violating the bodily autonomy and self determination of a whole species against their will. Morally, that's enough to provide a rationale to refuse support for the genophage I think. The manner in which they did it to make the implied "bad" genophage path arbitrarily cruel (it's not like the science of how it works is presented as primitive, yet it has arbitrary limitations to make it cruel) is reflected in 92% of players picking the cure side. It wasn't actually perceived as a tough choice because of a lopsided, overly pathos ridden presentation.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 30, 2021 19:47:35 GMT
A point that is easily overlooked is that Paragon/Renegade isn't just "nice/mean", though that certainly holds weight. A Paragon abides by the law, but is willing to bend the rules for the "greater good", or will at least try to smooth it over. A Renegade doesn't care about the law; they won't just break it because they can, but if their goal would otherwise be barred by the law, they won't hesitate to break it. A Paragon wants to get along with everyone, or at least avoid violence, but WILL NOT abide terrorism/abuse. It's why a Paragon constantly bad-mouths Cerberus in ME2, as well as going along with the Council in ME2 despite their unwillingness to help. The interrupt to pistol-whip Archer in "Overlord" is a prime example of how that interrupt is almost pure Paragon: Here's a scientist who disregarded ethical considerations and subjected HIS OWN BROTHER to a process that is torturous in the extreme, all while said brother is pleading for it to "Please, make it stop." A Renegade is not concerned about the needs of the one, all the Renegade sees is how "Overlord" could bear fruit in fighting the geth. Another way to look at Paragon/Renegade is "cooperative/survivalist". A Paragon wants to cooperate with others for mutual benefit, a Renegade won't turn down help, but if you're in their way, they'll do what they have to to survive. A Paragon believes that all lives matter, human or alien. The Paragon dialogue near the end of "Citadel" encapsulates that, when Shepard defies the clone who accuses Shepard of 'losing sight of human interests' or such. The interrupt to save Samara in ME3 is Paragon because Shepard values Samara's life, and that suicide is not a good outcome. A Renegade believes that the goal matters, regardless of the immediate cost. The interrupt to shoot Udina in ME3 is Renegade because while he's still a councilor, he's threatening the others, so the math is basically "2 councilors is better than none". I have no doubt there are those who are going to argue with me to oblivion and back about this, but all I see from this is that the Paragon/Renegade system is a brilliant morality system that accounts for universal reality but also individual context and situation. From my own experiences, my Shepard's morality ends up looking like a Star Trek nacelle, 1 section Renegade and the others Paragon. My issue is more the fact that this is tied to a seemingly arbitrary points system. My take on it is that unless dialogue options are tied to a meaningful skill stat, like tech or political savviness, or something related to either a selected background, or information gathered prior, dialogue should simply be completely flexible for us to select whatever we want at any given time. With this system, I never feel like my character is being built so much as it’s being funneled into a particular personality type.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 30, 2021 20:01:54 GMT
A point that is easily overlooked is that Paragon/Renegade isn't just "nice/mean", though that certainly holds weight. A Paragon abides by the law, but is willing to bend the rules for the "greater good", or will at least try to smooth it over. A Renegade doesn't care about the law; they won't just break it because they can, but if their goal would otherwise be barred by the law, they won't hesitate to break it. A Paragon wants to get along with everyone, or at least avoid violence, but WILL NOT abide terrorism/abuse. It's why a Paragon constantly bad-mouths Cerberus in ME2, as well as going along with the Council in ME2 despite their unwillingness to help. The interrupt to pistol-whip Archer in "Overlord" is a prime example of how that interrupt is almost pure Paragon: Here's a scientist who disregarded ethical considerations and subjected HIS OWN BROTHER to a process that is torturous in the extreme, all while said brother is pleading for it to "Please, make it stop." A Renegade is not concerned about the needs of the one, all the Renegade sees is how "Overlord" could bear fruit in fighting the geth. Another way to look at Paragon/Renegade is "cooperative/survivalist". A Paragon wants to cooperate with others for mutual benefit, a Renegade won't turn down help, but if you're in their way, they'll do what they have to to survive. A Paragon believes that all lives matter, human or alien. The Paragon dialogue near the end of "Citadel" encapsulates that, when Shepard defies the clone who accuses Shepard of 'losing sight of human interests' or such. The interrupt to save Samara in ME3 is Paragon because Shepard values Samara's life, and that suicide is not a good outcome. A Renegade believes that the goal matters, regardless of the immediate cost. The interrupt to shoot Udina in ME3 is Renegade because while he's still a councilor, he's threatening the others, so the math is basically "2 councilors is better than none". I have no doubt there are those who are going to argue with me to oblivion and back about this, but all I see from this is that the Paragon/Renegade system is a brilliant morality system that accounts for universal reality but also individual context and situation. From my own experiences, my Shepard's morality ends up looking like a Star Trek nacelle, 1 section Renegade and the others Paragon. My issue is more the fact that this is tied to a seemingly arbitrary points system. My take on it is that unless dialogue options are tied to a meaningful skill stat, like tech or political savviness, or something related to either a selected background, or information gathered prior, dialogue should simply be completely flexible for us to select whatever we want at any given time. With this system, I never feel like my character is being built so much as it’s being funneled into a particular personality type. This is why thought ME3 had the best system of the three, where Shepard's reputation increase neutral to the P/R system. That was ok (especially because, if you used persuasions often enough, you always unlocked everything anyway). ME1 was also ok (not great but ok), where you just had to spend a couple of skill points in order to get the best dialogue options, fine, I can live with that. ME2 really pissed me off though, where persuasion options are gated by how many paragon or renegade actions you had done before. This really forced you into one personality type or the other and basically made situational judgement a non-option (which in an RPG is REALLY stupid). That's why I cheat in ME2 and give myself a couple hundred P/R points at the very start via save game editor, so I can use all the options whenever I want. Mass Effect 2: The only game where I am a proud cheater.
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Post by Radec on Mar 30, 2021 20:39:36 GMT
ME2 is fine with an import. In fact I liked that the higher Red/Blue I win dialogue had a high threshold to achieve. It shouldn't be easy to get those options. That said I never, ever found it taxing with any of my imported characters. In fact a couple of my Paragades got both persuasion options even in the highest checks like the loyalty missions and the Miranda/Jack and Legion/Tali arguments, and I wasn't even trying to game them.
It's only for a new game that you had to pick between gaming the system to get the best outcomes, and roleplaying and accepting you'd not get all the reputation checks. Fine IMO. ME3 did the same thing, not with the repuation system but with your narrative options for a new game in general limited by the non recruited or no loyalty status of all the ME2 squadmates (no Geth/Quarian ceasefire, no ability to talk Mordin down when sabotaging, lots more people die by default and you lose access to war assets).
I much preferred the way the universe and its characters sometimes reacted differently to my P/R Shepard than it not reacting at all to Ryder no matter what irrelevant tone I choose (IMO this "tone" system is more suited to more clearly defined protagonists, It works fine in Horizon Zero Dawn, for instance). I did like the interrupts and romance dialogues in Andromeda being telegraphed more clearly, though.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by andydandymandy on Mar 31, 2021 0:15:32 GMT
*shrugs* I'm not interested in defending the world-building here. (I think ME1 is very overrated in this regard.) I'm just saying that your proposal misses the actual problem. Having the genophage be more sensible and less gratuitously painful isn't an improvement, since it renders the setting even less coherent than it already is. The facts that you don't like were established in ME1. ME2 conformed to them. I don't agree. One option (support the genophage) shouldn't be given additional arbitrary downsides that don't make sense just because the hero Paragon path that the writer prefers is stupid due to said writers' (and by extension some characters' within the story) inability to do math. That makes the setting appear less coherent. In stories like this with a branching narrative that is ostensibly not intended to be presented as "good and evil" (e.g. Star Wars Light vs Dark side), options should be presented as neutrally and close to effectively viable as possible, or should have some sort of balance over the course of the narrative (sometimes idealistic choices are superior, sometimes not). The genophage is already violating the bodily autonomy and self determination of a whole species against their will. Morally, that's enough to provide a rationale to refuse support for the genophage I think. The manner in which they did it to make the implied "bad" genophage path arbitrarily cruel (it's not like the science of how it works is presented as primitive, yet it has arbitrary limitations to make it cruel) is reflected in 92% of players picking the cure side. It wasn't actually perceived as a tough choice because of a lopsided, overly pathos ridden presentation. It makes sense to me that the genophage would have nasty side effects (like Krogan giving birth to stillborns) because its an attempt to alter the Krogan in a way that they were not designed by mother nature or the evolution of their species to be. Krogan evolved as a species to have rabid birthrates. The genophage literally goes against their nature. There is no way that wouldn't have nasty consequences.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 31, 2021 4:36:35 GMT
ME2 is fine with an import. In fact I liked that the higher Red/Blue I win dialogue had a high threshold to achieve. It shouldn't be easy to get those options. That said I never, ever found it taxing with any of my imported characters. In fact a couple of my Paragades got both persuasion options even in the highest checks like the loyalty missions and the Miranda/Jack and Legion/Tali arguments, and I wasn't even trying to game them. It's only for a new game that you had to pick between gaming the system to get the best outcomes, and roleplaying and accepting you'd not get all the reputation checks. Fine IMO. ME3 did the same thing, not with the repuation system but with your narrative options for a new game in general limited by the non recruited or no loyalty status of all the ME2 squadmates (no Geth/Quarian ceasefire, no ability to talk Mordin down when sabotaging, lots more people die by default and you lose access to war assets). I much preferred the way the universe and its characters sometimes reacted differently to my P/R Shepard than it not reacting at all to Ryder no matter what irrelevant tone I choose (IMO this "tone" system is more suited to more clearly defined protagonists, It works fine in Horizon Zero Dawn, for instance). I did like the interrupts and romance dialogues in Andromeda being telegraphed more clearly, though. The problem with ME2 is that tying how you can interact with your crew to unrelated actions is very unintuitive. Like, I didn’t shoot enough people, or use enough paragon interrupts or something, and suddenly my Shepard’s too much of a dumbass to properly diffuse an argument between followers? Ridiculous. Mass Effect 3’s reputation system is simply superior, because it actively rewards you for being attentive specifically to characters, or punishes you for neglecting them, rather than requiring a cumulative score for things entirely unrelated to them. Paragon and Renegade dialogue is essentially just tonal dialogue options with extra steps.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 31, 2021 4:53:45 GMT
ME2 is fine with an import. In fact I liked that the higher Red/Blue I win dialogue had a high threshold to achieve. It shouldn't be easy to get those options. That said I never, ever found it taxing with any of my imported characters. In fact a couple of my Paragades got both persuasion options even in the highest checks like the loyalty missions and the Miranda/Jack and Legion/Tali arguments, and I wasn't even trying to game them. It's only for a new game that you had to pick between gaming the system to get the best outcomes, and roleplaying and accepting you'd not get all the reputation checks. Fine IMO. ME3 did the same thing, not with the repuation system but with your narrative options for a new game in general limited by the non recruited or no loyalty status of all the ME2 squadmates (no Geth/Quarian ceasefire, no ability to talk Mordin down when sabotaging, lots more people die by default and you lose access to war assets). I much preferred the way the universe and its characters sometimes reacted differently to my P/R Shepard than it not reacting at all to Ryder no matter what irrelevant tone I choose (IMO this "tone" system is more suited to more clearly defined protagonists, It works fine in Horizon Zero Dawn, for instance). I did like the interrupts and romance dialogues in Andromeda being telegraphed more clearly, though. The problem with ME2 is that tying how you can interact with your crew to unrelated actions is very unintuitive. Like, I didn’t shoot enough people, or use enough paragon interrupts or something, and suddenly my Shepard’s too much of a dumbass to properly diffuse an argument between followers? Ridiculous. Mass Effect 3’s reputation system is simply superior, because it actively rewards you for being attentive specifically to characters, or punishes you for neglecting them, rather than requiring a cumulative score for things entirely unrelated to them. Paragon and Renegade dialogue is essentially just tonal dialogue options with extra steps. Yea this, though I think Dragon Age has an even better system where you can develop a reputation with particular people and that will determine how those people (and possibly others) interact with you. That always made the most sense to me. Also, it would be better if dialogue options weren't just unavailable (greyed out) but if simply the reaction of the NPC would change. So Shepard (or the next PC) wouldn't somehow loose the ability to make a certain argument in the first place but rather if you have a certain reputation with an NPC (or their faction maybe), a paragon persuasion attempt might work, if you don't it might not.
Obviously it would be the most complicated to develop but it would be the most realistic and immersive IMO and if you hide the numbers away from the player, you can make a dialogue system where you really need to think about your dialogue responses in any situation, rather than just going for the top left because that's the best outcome.
I mean, the P/R system in ME1 was just the next iteration on the light/dark side system from KotOR and the open palm/closed fist system from JE but for a future ME, I'd like to see something a little more complex.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 31, 2021 21:15:21 GMT
The krogan learned nothing from the genophage. Even Wrex is demanding a bunch of worlds for no reason. Remember the Rebellions started when the krogan were seizing colonies that weren't theirs.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 31, 2021 21:15:59 GMT
As for Paragon/Renegade, I don't want Renegade to be the "right" choice.
I want a good way for both.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 1, 2021 0:08:40 GMT
Lol, what are the Krogans supposed to be learning exactly? That if you help the council you'll be repaid with genocide?
Maybe the Salarians should have learned not to uplift races they aren't prepared to give adequate territory to.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 2, 2021 1:05:13 GMT
Lol, what are the Krogans supposed to be learning exactly? That if you help the council you'll be repaid with genocide? Maybe the Salarians should have learned not to uplift races they aren't prepared to give adequate territory to. The salarians are definitely the biggest troublemakers. They’re the ones responsible for the start of the rachni wars and now they wanna make varren and yagh shock troops. Classic.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Apr 2, 2021 1:20:11 GMT
Lol, what are the Krogans supposed to be learning exactly? That if you help the council you'll be repaid with genocide? Maybe the Salarians should have learned not to uplift races they aren't prepared to give adequate territory to. The salarians are definitely the biggest troublemakers. They’re the ones responsible for the start of the rachni wars and now they wanna make varren and yagh shock troops. Classic. I prefer to think of them as the biggest awesome makers.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 2, 2021 1:30:45 GMT
The salarians are definitely the biggest troublemakers. They’re the ones responsible for the start of the rachni wars and now they wanna make varren and yagh shock troops. Classic. I prefer to think of them as the biggest awesome makers. I just want these lousy frogs to be taken to task for their meddlesome shenanigans. I would love to have some sort of splinter cell group of STG be a major antagonist force, basically amphibian Cerberus.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 2, 2021 18:01:30 GMT
I'm pretty sure someone at BioWare (not sure who) made a statement about not wanting to go back to binary choice options for dialogue prompts. While Paragon/Renegade offered a degree of simplicity in terms of what you might expect from taking a certain dialogue choice (or action), it was a relic of an older time where gradations and nuance weren't as prevalent in video game storytelling media. The lack of a Paragon/Renegade doesnt necessitate that your actions cant come across as "Goodie-Two-Shoes" or "Pure Evil" though. I think Dragon Age generally did okay in this regard.
As for being able to have more dialogue options/choices that would fit the Renegade path? Sure. I just wish Renegae didnt always need to equate to everything you did being absolutely to the detriment of your main mission. That's partly why I hardly bothered with going renegade in the OT. My goal is to stop the Reapers, and yet many renegade options basically knee-cap my efforts to do so. Hell, I'd be okay if choosing the Renegade option led to this best outcome in a few situations.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 2, 2021 22:52:59 GMT
That's the same problem that Bio's historically had with non-lulz evil. The options almost never pay off on their own terms. In a D&D game you get all the wealth and power you could want by being good, and better shop prices too.
Although some ME3 choices work correctly. I have one Shepard who only survived the war because he sabotaged the genophage, which I believe is a Renegade option.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 3, 2021 0:29:02 GMT
Thread locked temporarily. Take a break and come back later.
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