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Post by xerrai on Oct 29, 2016 23:44:22 GMT
This is a question that has been bugging me for a while now, but why is lyrium required for the Harrowing?
We know all mortals (save for the dwarves and maybe the qunari) can dream. We also know most visit the fade unconsciously and are usually incapable of remembering their visits once they awake. Mages however are said to remain 'conscious' when they enter the fade. But not to the same degree dreamer mages have (who can also manipulate the fade to their will). But therein lies the question of why lyrium is used in the harrowing.
According to the wiki and codex entries, lyrium mixed with a liquid allows one to enter the fade when "fully aware, unlike all others who only reach it [the fade] in dreaming". But don't mages sort of do that already when they dream? And if they don't, why would they allow them that clarity of awareness for the Harrowing which is supposed to be a test?
I would say it would be to speed up the process. That the Templars simply are not willing to wait around for the mage to fall asleep. But that would seem odd and unlikely. Why would they would use such an expensive mineral just to so they don't have to wait? I like to assume that it is used for something else, like maybe it increases the chance for a demon(s) to find the mage in question, but I am still quite confounded on the details surrounding the actual role of lyrium.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 0:06:45 GMT
I'm guessing the lyrium is used for mages to enter a trance, where they do the harrowing ritual. So, sort of like dreaming, but awake in an altered state of consciousness. Dreamer mages don't really need lyrium, they can enter the fade at will, or they are maybe always connected to it while awake, but most mages aren't dreamers, so that's not an option for everyone. The senior mages and Templars are there to guide the journey and monitor in case of demon possession, so they are observing the ritual and watching for signs.
Why use such an expensive mineral just so they don't have to wait for the mage to fall asleep, because it's an important rite of passage and an initiation ceremony. Plus there are high stakes if it doesn't go right, considering failure can mean death for the mage.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 30, 2016 0:18:30 GMT
The lyrium just powers the ritual to send a mage's conscious mind into the Fade.
I think you'be misinterpreted what happens to a Mage while dreaming. They aren't really aware within their dreams, much like the rest of us.
You can see evidence of this during the conversation with Solas in the Fade; he's surprised you realized where you were even if you are a Mage. (That's due largely to the Mark.)
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 30, 2016 0:39:12 GMT
Based on what we see from Wynne and a mage Inquisitor, it seems that, although mages remain fully aware in the Fade and remember it as if they were awake, they can't necessarily tell when they're in the Fade. The lyrium likely holds the role of making sure that the apprentice falls asleep on command, and making sure that they know they're in the Fade.
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Post by melbella on Oct 30, 2016 1:27:54 GMT
Maybe it's also for the Templars? How else are they going to know if the mage accepted a demon's deal or didn't unless they are there observing?
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Post by rapscallioness on Oct 30, 2016 1:57:48 GMT
As others have said, I'm guessing it's to help with the sort of lucid dreaming journey they take during the Harrowing?
Personally, I'm wondering what keeps mages from becoming lyrium addicts themselves.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 2:10:59 GMT
As others have said, I'm guessing it's to help with the sort of lucid dreaming journey they take during the Harrowing? Personally, I'm wondering what keeps mages from becoming lyrium addicts themselves. I wonder that too... do Templars use more of it? Or use it differently? Maybe they do get addicted, but a Circle mage who gets sick or turns crazy from lyrium addiction is probably just going to be made tranquil, while Templars get kicked out of the Order.
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Post by rapscallioness on Oct 30, 2016 2:32:23 GMT
As others have said, I'm guessing it's to help with the sort of lucid dreaming journey they take during the Harrowing? Personally, I'm wondering what keeps mages from becoming lyrium addicts themselves. I wonder that too... do Templars use more of it? Or use it differently? Maybe they do get addicted, but a Circle mage who gets sick or turns crazy from lyrium addiction is probably just going to be made tranquil, while Templars get kicked out of the Order. Oh, I didn;t think about the Circle mage getting sick with it, and how that would look. I bet it would look like possession, or be assumed to be that. And then if lyrium is such an integral part of a mages toolkit, why is it presented during the Harrowing like it's a big deal? It must be something else to the ritual we're not seeing because mages take lyrium all the time, yet they don't automatically travel the Fade when they do. So, there's something else going on there. edit: oh, and maybe whatever it is that makes mages, mages, also provides them with some natural resistance, at least, to lyrium addiction?
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2016 3:28:27 GMT
I wonder that too... do Templars use more of it? Or use it differently? Maybe they do get addicted, but a Circle mage who gets sick or turns crazy from lyrium addiction is probably just going to be made tranquil, while Templars get kicked out of the Order. Oh, I didn;t think about the Circle mage getting sick with it, and how that would look. I bet it would look like possession, or be assumed to be that. And then if lyrium is such an integral part of a mages toolkit, why is it presented during the Harrowing like it's a big deal? It must be something else to the ritual we're not seeing because mages take lyrium all the time, yet they don't automatically travel the Fade when they do. So, there's something else going on there. edit: oh, and maybe whatever it is that makes mages, mages, also provides them with some natural resistance, at least, to lyrium addiction? Well apparently even mages can get physical mutations if they constantly imbibe lyrium. But as to how mages are harder to get addicted, it may have to do with mana imbalance. It is cased when the mage's capacity for magic is increased in some way, and has a damaging affect on the body. It seems to be unique to mages in that they can recover from the adverse effects, but I am not sure why. Could be because their bodies are naturally predisposed to managing magic in some way.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 30, 2016 3:48:03 GMT
Every ritual within the game requires one of two things: blood or lyrium. The larger the ritual the more is needed. Think of it this way: Lyrium or blood is basically a battery. So, a car would need a larger battery then say a remote control.
The Harrowing basically a test in a controlled area. The Mage is forced into the Fade which is different than one simply dreaming. If your forced into a situation and not knowing what that situation entails, then one is less prepared then say one who simply falls asleep.
It’s possible the Templars are aware of what is happening inside The Fade with the mage; considering the amount of lyrium that is needed. Furthermore, it is not uncommon to see Fade events happening if the conditions are right.
I doubt it’s just lyrium that is used. Its possible there are other elements seeing as to how The Harrowing is extremely secretive. Sort of like The Grey Wardens Joining Ritual.
As for Mages becoming addicted to lyirum….
Mages have lyrium already within themselves. Thus, becoming addicted to a substance seems unlikely but this is after all Dragon Age and anything can happen.
Templars on the other hand are far more likely to become addicted simply because it’s a substance in which their body does not produce naturally and it can have different effects on different Templars.
But seeing as to how Red Lyrium is ten times more potent than regular lyrium it seems all those who take it become addicted even if they were not addicted to the blue lyrium.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 4:20:04 GMT
Cantina , when did they mention lyrium being already naturally in a mage's body? (not doubting you, just don't remember hearing/reading that before). Because if that's the case, then it sounds like it works similar to the eezo in Mass Effect with Biotics. Which would imply, lyrium is not just addictive, but mutagenic, and is actually changing a mage's physiology. But then, that doesn't explain why Templars or anyone handling lyrium don't also become mages after lyrium exposure. Unless it's actually the Templars who are resistant to it, which might make some sort of sense that their skills involve resistance to magic and the fade. Except perhaps the red variety. Not sure I buy this theory just yet, but possible it's a direction they are going.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 30, 2016 4:53:16 GMT
Cantina , when did they mention lyrium being already naturally in a mage's body? (not doubting you, just don't remember hearing/reading that before). Because if that's the case, then it sounds like it works similar to the eezo in Mass Effect with Biotics. Which would imply, lyrium is not just addictive, but mutagenic, and is actually changing a mage's physiology. But then, that doesn't explain why Templars or anyone handling lyrium don't also become mages after lyrium exposure. Unless it's actually the Templars who are resistant to it, which might make some sort of sense that their skills involve resistance to magic and the fade. Except perhaps the red variety. Not sure I buy this theory just yet, but possible it's a direction they are going. Its uh difficult to explain, but I’ll do my best.
Solas says, “Lyrium is the source of all magic. Save that which mages bring themselves.”
Since lyrium is magic, mages themselves are magic too. Thus, becoming addicted to a substance, they are already familiar with seems unlikely.
However, mages do take lyrium to replenish their mana restores and uses it to boost their rituals and spells. Sort of like Red Bull or something.
Its, uh like there too different sources of magic but one in the same.
Ugh. I hope that made some measure of sense.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 6:30:11 GMT
Cantina , when did they mention lyrium being already naturally in a mage's body? (not doubting you, just don't remember hearing/reading that before). Because if that's the case, then it sounds like it works similar to the eezo in Mass Effect with Biotics. Which would imply, lyrium is not just addictive, but mutagenic, and is actually changing a mage's physiology. But then, that doesn't explain why Templars or anyone handling lyrium don't also become mages after lyrium exposure. Unless it's actually the Templars who are resistant to it, which might make some sort of sense that their skills involve resistance to magic and the fade. Except perhaps the red variety. Not sure I buy this theory just yet, but possible it's a direction they are going. Its uh difficult to explain, but I’ll do my best.
Solas says, “Lyrium is the source of all magic. Save that which mages bring themselves.”
Since lyrium is magic, mages themselves are magic too. Thus, becoming addicted to a substance, they are already familiar with seems unlikely.
However, mages do take lyrium to replenish their mana restores and uses it to boost their rituals and spells. Sort of like Red Bull or something.
Its, uh like there too different sources of magic but one in the same.
Ugh. I hope that made some measure of sense. Ah, I see what you mean. I took the magical substance being referred to there as mana--which all mages naturally have, and lyrium helps to enhance and replenish this. But it's not clear whether the boost to mana is from the lyrium, or from the fade itself. The lyrium could be acting as a conduit, linking them to the fade and opening the door. Which might explain why dreamers don't require it, if they have other ways to access the fade. Or maybe we're looking at it too literally. From a magical standpoint, maybe lyrium contains the fade itself, but also mages have a piece of the fade inside (their spirit). So it's not magical because it's a substance, but because it's alive (in the sense it has a spirit). Which would seem to line up with the Dwarven idea of the Stone.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 30, 2016 6:45:35 GMT
Its uh difficult to explain, but I’ll do my best.
Solas says, “Lyrium is the source of all magic. Save that which mages bring themselves.”
Since lyrium is magic, mages themselves are magic too. Thus, becoming addicted to a substance, they are already familiar with seems unlikely.
However, mages do take lyrium to replenish their mana restores and uses it to boost their rituals and spells. Sort of like Red Bull or something.
Its, uh like there too different sources of magic but one in the same.
Ugh. I hope that made some measure of sense. Ah, I see what you mean. I took the magical substance being referred to there as mana--which all mages naturally have, and lyrium helps to enhance and replenish this. But it's not clear whether the boost to mana is from the lyrium, or from the fade itself. The lyrium could be acting as a conduit, linking them to the fade and opening the door. Which might explain why dreamers don't require it, if they have other ways to access the fade. Or maybe we're looking at it too literally. From a magical standpoint, maybe lyrium contains the fade itself, but also mages have a piece of the fade inside (their spirit). So it's not magical because it's a substance, but because it's alive (in the sense it has a spirit). Which would seem to line up with the Dwarven idea of the Stone. Hmm that is a good point. Sort of an anchor or ping-pong affect. Which would explain why lyrium is found in The Fade. But if lyrium is alive would it be so in the Fade as well? OR is lyrium within Thedas alive do to it being a sliver of the Fade itself. Maybe spiritual habitation?
But if that is the case then would it be possible for such entities to be corrupted by red lyrium?
(Edit) Furthermore if lyrium is in The Fade, does that mean it only grows in Thedas were the Veil is thin? Deep Roads certainly would qualify as such a place.
Bah! So many questions. Maybe the answers will be found in the next game.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 7:33:39 GMT
Hmm that is a good point. Sort of an anchor or ping-pong affect. Which would explain why lyrium is found in The Fade. But if lyrium is alive would it be so in the Fade as well? OR is lyrium within Thedas alive do to it being a sliver of the Fade itself. Maybe spiritual habitation?
But if that is the case then would it be possible for such entities to be corrupted by red lyrium?
(Edit) Furthermore if lyrium is in The Fade, does that mean it only grows in Thedas were the Veil is thin? Deep Roads certainly would qualify as such a place.
Bah! So many questions. Maybe the answers will be found in the next game. Yeah, I think the game strongly hints yes to all those... would it be alive inside the fade as well, I think yes. When a mage goes into the fade, it's their spirit/consciousness that is traveling around there, not their body (save for our Inquisitor entering the fade physically, which was supposed to be a very big deal). So similarly, lyrium also has a spirit form in the fade. I think it's likely the dwarven religion of the Stone was probably animistic, so when they say lyrium is alive, they could mean that it has a soul or spiritual essence. As for red lyrium. It's not clear whether the blight has a physical or spiritual cause...but then again, in a magical sense, these could be the same thing, so yes, lyrium could become corrupted. Hopefully they'll explain in the next game, since I don't think the red lyrium plotline is resolved.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 30, 2016 9:40:21 GMT
As others have said, I'm guessing it's to help with the sort of lucid dreaming journey they take during the Harrowing? Personally, I'm wondering what keeps mages from becoming lyrium addicts themselves. I think the Codex in Origins established that mages can get addicted to lyrium. As for why they mostly don't, Templars seem to take it more often. I think I remember meeting a carta member or something in Haven, and that person saying that mages and Templars have very different buying patterns with regards to lyrium; Templars use less when they use but use a lot more often, whereas mages can go without it indefinitely until they suddenly need a lot more power than they naturally have and buy a whole lot more lyrium than any Templar would have to at one time. My guess is that a mage gets addicted if they frequently need more power than they naturally have. (As I recall the Codex's example of addicted magi was some Tevinter Magisters, which seems to fit that description pretty well.) Though this doesn't necessarily preclude mages being more resistant due to being innately magical. On topic: The ritual with the lyrium seems to allow a mage to go to one specific area of the Fade, since that's how and why the ritual is used in The Arl of Redcliffe. I've been wondering for a long time if the Circle is arranging for the mage to run into demons during the Harrowing, since otherwise the test could be rendered moot by a mage running into nothing but benevolent (or weak or timid) spirits. I've been trying to figure out how the Circle could arrange for the demons to be where the mage ends up, but maybe it's the reverse: the Circle looks for someplace that suits their purposes and then sends the mage there. And exactly where in the Fade they end up something that a mage who just falls asleep could credibly be unable to control that well... unless that mage is a somniari, which is supposed to be an extremely rare gift. (Not to mention that the mage ending up wherever they want isn't quite the point: in this interpretation of the ritual, the Circle and Templars want to control where that mage ends up.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 30, 2016 14:26:11 GMT
I think you could be right that using lyrium is to control exactly in the Fade where the mage has consciousness. In Asunder, Wynne doesn't imbibe the lyrium to enter the Fade. Instead she uses a drop of raw lyrium in a brass bowl and the vapours from this (and music) seem to open her consciousness (and that of her fellow mages) allowing them to enter the Fade while still awake. Presumably this is what also happens during the harrowing. The song that the raw lyrium emits will likely attract spirits, so it is easier for them to be confronted by the demon required for their test.
The lyrium that mages take to boost their mana for ordinary spells is refined lyrium, where raw lyrium has been heated to produce a fine powder that is then dissolved into liquid. Presumably this is the same stuff that Templars used. It is addictive to both mages and Templars but in different ways. The Templars have no innate magic of their own and so become dependent on the stuff much quicker, particularly as the Chantry insist on them taking it in order to combat magic (I'm still of the school that thinks it is a convenient means of control). Presumably because the mages already have magic in their blood it is only boosting their levels temporarily and so they do not suffer the same withdrawal symptoms. However, if they keep using it on a regular basis, they will become dependent on it, just like Templars, and keep needing a bigger and bigger fix to get the same results. Prolonged regular use will result in mental deterioration. Normally, though, mages do not need to use lyrium to do spells but only when in combat situations or to undertake a particularly powerful spell. Provided they keep to these restrictions, then presumably they will not suffer long term detrimental effects to their mental health.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 14:39:49 GMT
^^ It seems to be that the Harrowing is supposed to be a mage's first real trip to the fade. It's their initiation into becoming a mage. Remember they are usually taken to the Circle at a young age, so this is likely their first ritual into the fade itself. Outside of their natural encounters while dreaming, of course. Given that Mouse claims to have been a former mage who failed his Harrowing, it's possible the Circle actually has a deal with this demon to perform initiations on their mages, so it's Mouse who is setting it all up. That seems to be what Valor implies, when he questions why mages pit their apprentices against demons. So they definitely expect demons to be encountered. Or it could be that a mage's first trip into the fade just naturally attracts attention from the fade spirits and demons. They are crossing the Veil for the first time and becoming visible to them.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2016 17:43:56 GMT
Thanks for all of the responses guys.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2016 19:05:12 GMT
So it seems the general consensus is that under normal circumstances, mages enter the fade via dreams but are not necessarily aware that they are in the fade. They do however have the ability to remember their fade visits upon waking. What the liquid lyrium does is that it allows the mage to enter the fade while fully cognizant.
At first glance it seems rather counterintuitive. If the harrowing is meant to test if they can resist possession, then allowing them full consciousness when they are usually devoid of it does not seem to actually test their ability. Or at least not as reliably. It's like testing the ability of how well someone's eyesight is only to equip them with glasses. Or testing how well someone swims only to equip them with a swimsuit.
So I assume there is something else to it. Something that actually increases their risk of possession--or at least the probability of a powerful demon encounter. The most common guess is that the ritual also involves the deliberate summoning/attraction of a demon. But....maybe their consciousness in the fade is a danger in and of itself? If dreamers are any indication, it is possible their now-heightened presence in the fade attracts demons more than usual. The presence of demons is also known to aversely affect dreamers for some unknown reason which implies demons can affect them more than normal dreaming mages.
So maybe just like some posters have guessed, full consciousness in the fade also has the affect of allowing demons to more easily "see" the harrowing mage in question. In which case, it can be theorized that the demons are not only able to find the mage more easily, but they may also be able to gather more 'ammunition' (better insight into the mage's life/personality) which they can then use in their possession attempt.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 19:28:59 GMT
So maybe just like some posters have guessed, full consciousness in the fade also has the affect of allowing demons to more easily "see" the harrowing mage in question. In which case, it can be theorized that the demons are not only able to find the mage more easily, but they may also be able to gather more 'ammunition' (better insight into the mage's life/personality) which they can then use in their possession attempt. Yes, this is inferred by some comments that have been made about why non mages don't become possessed, even though they technically can be, and did so in DA2. The spirits/demons can't normally see them. I figure the Veil makes the inhabitants of the fade invisible to non mages (and vise versa). But mages have a conscious connection to the fade in spite of the Veil, and dreamers even more so. Once mages start consciously working in the fade, they can be seen by the other side too. Also, if we look at the test set up for the mage Warden in DAO, it was more a test of character than anything else. They want to make sure mages won't choose to voluntarily work with demons. It's not about how well they would survive an attack against their will (which is what the Warden assumes at first), but what they believe, and how well they will follow Chantry/Circle teachings, or whether they would accept help from a demon.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 30, 2016 19:56:05 GMT
So maybe just like some posters have guessed, full consciousness in the fade also has the affect of allowing demons to more easily "see" the harrowing mage in question. In which case, it can be theorized that the demons are not only able to find the mage more easily, but they may also be able to gather more 'ammunition' (better insight into the mage's life/personality) which they can then use in their possession attempt. Yes, this is inferred by some comments that have been made about why non mages don't become possessed, even though they technically can be, and did so in DA2. The spirits/demons can't normally see them. I figure the Veil makes the inhabitants of the fade invisible to non mages (and vise versa). But mages have a conscious connection to the fade in spite of the Veil, and dreamers even more so. Once mages start consciously working in the fade, then can be seen by the other side too. Also, if we look at the test set up for the mage Warden in DAO, it was more a test of character than anything else. They want to make sure mages won't choose to voluntarily work with demons. It's not about how well they would survive an attack against their will (which is what the Warden assumes at first), but what they believe, and how well they will follow Chantry/Circle teachings, or whether they would accept help from a demon. That much I was able to glean, but there were times when I confused due to the contradictory nature of other dreaming sequences--in no small part due to how many mages are "special" in some manner. I was quite mired in what constituted "normal" dreaming encounters. As an example, the player character is typically treated different than other mage characters by having access to player agency (which usually translates as "strong will" in the game). So I try looking toward companions or codex entries. In DAI we have Solas's approval sequence in the fade, but between the mark and Solas position as a dreamer/evanuris, I try not to view it as a typical dream. Especially since they do not even bother to acknowledge how a dwarven Inquisitor's ability to experience it too. In the DAO quest Lost In Dreams, a mage like Morrigan managed to identify the Flemeth she saw as a demon, but I convinced myself to view it as an exception due to her special tutelage under Flemeth. Wynne (harboring a spirit of faith) on the other hand was all but mired in a nightmare where a group of apprentices have died. In DA2 a great deal of companions, even mages like Merrill, succumbed to temptation. But then I had to consider they were involved in a Dalish ritual that may have had an effect on how they dreamed. And on the harrowing itself I only managed to find two sources that were not reliant of player experiences. A codex entry found in Here Lies the Abyss and a bit of banter between Cole and Vivienne. So I was quite flummoxed when I found myself wondering what exactly the 'normal' state of dreaming was in Thedas was.
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Sah291
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sah291
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 30, 2016 20:27:12 GMT
That much I was able to glean, but there were times when I confused due to the contradictory nature of other dreaming sequences--in no small part due to how many mages are "special" in some manner. I was quite mired in what constituted "normal" dreaming encounters. As an example, the player character is typically treated different than other mage characters by having access to player agency (which usually translates as "strong will" in the game). So I try looking toward companions or codex entries. In DAI we have Solas's approval sequence in the fade, but between the mark and Solas position as a dreamer/evanuris, I try not to view it as a typical dream. Especially since they do not even bother to acknowledge how a dwarven Inquisitor's ability to experience it too. In the DAO quest Lost In Dreams, a mage like Morrigan managed to identify the Flemeth she saw as a demon, but I convinced myself to view it as an exception due to her special tutelage under Flemeth. Wynne (harboring a spirit of faith) on the other hand was all but mired in a nightmare where a group of apprentices have died. In DA2 a great deal of companions, even mages like Merrill, succumbed to temptation. But then I had to consider they were involved in a Dalish ritual that may have had an effect on how they dreamed. And on the harrowing itself I only managed to find two sources that were not reliant of player experiences. A codex entry found in Here Lies the Abyss and a bit of banter between Cole and Vivienne. So I was quite flummoxed when I found myself wondering what exactly the 'normal' state of dreaming was in Thedas was. Yeah, you're right, the player character is always quite the special snowflake, with the extra strong will power and whatnot. So it's hard to judge based on the mage PC alone. I assume their Harrowing was not too different from other Harrowings, though, they just pass the test with flying colors due to plot armor. I agree companion characters like Morrigan and Solas are more skilled than average, so we can't go by them. It's implied in the DAO fade sequence with Morrigan, in how the Warden seems surprised Morrigan was lucid enough to easily recognize the demon without much effort. It sounds like this is not always the norm, though, particularly against the more powerful demons like Sloth, who can lull people to sleep, or Pride demons who are tricksters. And everybody struggled against the powerful Nightmare demon in DAI. However, most normal mages probably aren't encountering very powerful demons like that every time they dream. As for the Inquisitor, I think seeking out and showing up in Solas' dream was a sign they were awakening to new abilities, that of a dreamer/somniari. This is supposed to be sort of a lost magical art in modern Thedas, and dreamers are rare. The devs did admit the dwarven Inquisitor having this ability even though dwarves don't dream was kind of an ooops, but I suppose we can just blame it on the anchor. We encountered one other dreamer, back in DA2, Feynriel. There it was implied he was even more vulnerable to getting lost in the fade, and it's supposed to be very dangerous when a dreamer becomes possessed because they could "destroy the world".
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 30, 2016 20:39:57 GMT
I think a dwarf Inquisition can experience the Fade with Solas through a combination of Solas' dreamer abilities and the power of the Anchor. The same holds true of a non-mage Inquisitor who equally should not be able to experience the Fade so clearly or interact with Solas as they do.
In DA2 everything was weird about that Fade sequence. Marethari says that to kill Feynriel in the Fade will render him tranquil, so presumably that only applies to Dreamers because we can kill Merrill in the Fade and she suffers no ill effects at all. It is also strange that Marethari seems to have the power to send the whole party into the Fade, when in DAO the combined might of Irving and his fellow mages was only sufficient to send one consciousness through and that person had to be a mage. No mention is made of what Marethari uses to achieve this. Did we supply her with lyrium? Did she use blood magic?
The presence of the faith spirit does not render Wynne immune to the perils of the Fade as she suffers a similar loss of will in Asunder when she appears to lose a battle of wills with the demon possessing Pharamond. Her companions intervene but to no avail, then the faith spirit takes over. So it would seem it only does so when all other options have failed. Therefore, perhaps we should assume that if the Warden had failed in their intervention, the spirit would have stepped in.
The thing I find strangest about the lore on magic and dreaming relates to saarebas. They must be able to access the Fade or they would not be able to do magic. Yet the Qunari teach that entering the Fade is reprehensible, even in sleep. Qunari claim they do not dream as others do and may be it has been possible for them to condition people in such a way that they do not remember it. Yet people also say they rarely encounter Qunari in the Fade which seems to lend credence to their claim. What then becomes of the saarebas? If they are conditioned not to enter the Fade, then they are effectively tranquil, but they quite clearly are not, so they must enter the Fade. When questioned about this, do they lie to their arvaarad? Or is the reason they have their mouths stitched up to remind them they are not meant to talk of their experience in the Fade, even if they have had one, so their leadership can maintain the fiction that no true Qunari enters the Fade?
According to World of Thedas, during the Harrowing the apprentice is surrounded not just by Templars but senior spellcasters as well. No doubt the latter are there to ensure that a demon actually does occupy the area of the Fade that the apprentice enters. I think the whole point of the test is to discover if the mage can see through the illusions that the demon will create in order to win their confidence and thus overcome them. The demon will start off by being friendly to put them off their guard. If the mage proves too clever for these tricks, then the demon will turn hostile and attempt a violent possession. If the apprentice successfully resists all of this, they have proved themselves of strong enough mind not to be a danger in the normal course of events, whether that be casting spells or simply sleeping.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 30, 2016 20:47:31 GMT
Merethari mentions that she uses an elven ritual to send Hawke's party into the Fade. It is presumably more powerful yet less resource intensive than the ritual used by the Circle.
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