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Post by smilesja on May 23, 2022 16:16:05 GMT
Yeah, I prefer quality over quantity and yeah, I really liked ME: A.
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Post by guanxi on May 24, 2022 19:51:41 GMT
The Amazon TV series could lead to all kinds of third-party licensing agreements - books, shows, games, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon end up buying the Mass Effect license or BioWare if they do make a go of it.
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Post by Spectr61 on May 27, 2022 20:40:56 GMT
On the Quality/Quantity point of the video on other franchises and their ultimate profitability -
I wonder how Elden Ring has impacted the Souls franchise of From Software?
I am no Souls fan, never having played one of them or their spinoffs, but those who have - how often did From Software pump out a game in the franchise, and how good were they vis-a-vis Biower and the ME empire?
I think we know, or can guess, that From Software must be making out well with their latest addition.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 29, 2022 18:28:13 GMT
On the Quality/Quantity point of the video on other franchises and their ultimate profitability - I wonder how Elden Ring has impacted the Souls franchise of From Software? I am no Souls fan, never having played one of them or their spinoffs, but those who have - how often did From Software pump out a game in the franchise, and how good were they vis-a-vis Biower and the ME empire? I think we know, or can guess, that From Software must be making out well with their latest addition. the OG Demon's Souls was 09, Dark Souls 1 was 2 years later, DS 2 was 3 years after that, Bloodborne 1 year later, DS3 a year after that, and Sekiro 3 years after that. but considering FromSoft basically just makes the same game over and over again with slight variations, which they ironically get no shit for, despite every other studio getting blasted for that constantly.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 29, 2022 18:32:29 GMT
The Amazon TV series could lead to all kinds of third-party licensing agreements - books, shows, games, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon end up buying the Mass Effect license or BioWare if they do make a go of it. It could, given the current situation with "Rings of Power" I have no faith in Amazon producing a show that will be worth a damn.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 2:13:42 GMT
It could, given the current situation with "Rings of Power" I have no faith in Amazon producing a show that will be worth a damn. My Magic 8 Ball agrees with your opinion, "Signs point to yes" - it will not be worth a damn. Amazon production value is not up to this, and it will sadly be evident. Amazon is trying to break the way TV/Film is made, "disrupting" things by abusing every contract to the fullest extent. The Boys is the exception to this rule, and really the effects aren't what make that show a success, it's the talent. They cut every corner possible and many they shouldn't. As a fan of the soutce material, I will be very pleasantly surprised to be wrong. I still haven't watched The Hobbit movies, if that further explains my particular PoV. Was too unhappy with the trilogy's choices in editing to bother. I expect this to be another thing I just ignore.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 30, 2022 14:53:02 GMT
It could, given the current situation with "Rings of Power" I have no faith in Amazon producing a show that will be worth a damn. My Magic 8 Ball agrees with your opinion, "Signs point to yes" - it will not be worth a damn. Amazon production value is not up to this, and it will sadly be evident. Amazon is trying to break the way TV/Film is made, "disrupting" things by abusing every contract to the fullest extent. The Boys is the exception to this rule, and really the effects aren't what make that show a success, it's the talent. They cut every corner possible and many they shouldn't. As a fan of the soutce material, I will be very pleasantly surprised to be wrong. I still haven't watched The Hobbit movies, if that further explains my particular PoV. Was too unhappy with the trilogy's choices in editing to bother. I expect this to be another thing I just ignore. I enjoy the Hobbit quite a bit. Sure it is of lesser of quality than the original trilogy, but honestly, the original trilogy is as close to cinematic perfection as your going to get. I cannot reasonably hold that against the Hobbit given all the behind the scenes issues they suffered. The Hobbit is still better than most of the Hollywood dreck that I see these days despite that, which is really sad honestly. Rings of Power, however, is just pure "WTF" distilled into a single show. They show absolute disdain for Tolkien's material, saying it's Racist Power Fantasy, one writer saying he thinks Sauron is homosexual as if that's even remotely relevant to the story, and Galadriel running around in a suit of armor mowing people down like a bloodthirsty lunatic because being a symbol of femininity and grace is sexist despite the fact she was the most respected character in the story. Their interpretations of Tolkien's work makes no sense, and many of their themes actively contradicts what Tolkien's message is. The Hobbit in comparison just didn't have enough time to get made properly so they had to cut corners with heavy CGI usage, and adding some characters that added nothing to the story.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on May 30, 2022 15:40:36 GMT
BW hasn't release anything decent for the ME universe since ME3 multiplayer. me3 mp decent? yeah no. I agree though more people to the studio.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 19:05:15 GMT
Sauron is gay? News to me... seemed like he was a demigod not concerned with sex.
I hate this sort of projection. Yhe source material is so much better than any of these modern writers can even dream of making, so they have to tear it down and reconstruct it in their own broken, feeble image.
I have nothing but disdain for writing of this ilk, and I will not support the destruction of the primary source of my imagination as a child. So, I refused to watch The Hobbit because of this, hated the LotR trilogy because of this, and sure as hell won't ever be watching the Amazon dumpsterfire unless they prove me wrong beyond any shadow of doubt.
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Post by Spectr61 on May 30, 2022 19:45:24 GMT
On the Quality/Quantity point of the video on other franchises and their ultimate profitability - I wonder how Elden Ring has impacted the Souls franchise of From Software? I am no Souls fan, never having played one of them or their spinoffs, but those who have - how often did From Software pump out a game in the franchise, and how good were they vis-a-vis Biower and the ME empire? I think we know, or can guess, that From Software must be making out well with their latest addition. the OG Demon's Souls was 09, Dark Souls 1 was 2 years later, DS 2 was 3 years after that, Bloodborne 1 year later, DS3 a year after that, and Sekiro 3 years after that. but considering FromSoft basically just makes the same game over and over again with slight variations, which they ironically get no shit for, despite every other studio getting blasted for that constantly. Thanks. I know there were quite a few Souls type games by From Software, but with Elden Ring, that makes 7 games in 13 years, call it an average of about 1 game every 2 years. And I assume some of those games had DLC, or multiple DLC's on top of that. Is From Software 10 times the size of Biower or something? Sheesh.
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Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on May 31, 2022 4:32:17 GMT
the OG Demon's Souls was 09, Dark Souls 1 was 2 years later, DS 2 was 3 years after that, Bloodborne 1 year later, DS3 a year after that, and Sekiro 3 years after that. but considering FromSoft basically just makes the same game over and over again with slight variations, which they ironically get no shit for, despite every other studio getting blasted for that constantly. Thanks. I know there were quite a few Souls type games by From Software, but with Elden Ring, that makes 7 games in 13 years, call it an average of about 1 game every 2 years. And I assume some of those games had DLC, or multiple DLC's on top of that. Is From Software 10 times the size of Biower or something? Sheesh. No the difference is that FromSoftware builds upon what they have already made and updates and improves upon it where BioWare starts over all the time adding months if not years to development and having issues enter the mix because everything is new so the problems aren't identified and squashed.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 31, 2022 15:47:12 GMT
Thanks. I know there were quite a few Souls type games by From Software, but with Elden Ring, that makes 7 games in 13 years, call it an average of about 1 game every 2 years. And I assume some of those games had DLC, or multiple DLC's on top of that. Is From Software 10 times the size of Biower or something? Sheesh. No the difference is that FromSoftware builds upon what they have already made and updates and improves upon it where BioWare starts over all the time adding months if not years to development and having issues enter the mix because everything is new so the problems aren't identified and squashed. This is correct. I think ME2 to 3 was the last time they "built upon" stuff they already had. Because from a gameplay standpoint ME3 was 2's combat refined and perfected. Not a single Dragon Age game has ever built upon the previous. A casual observer of the franchise could be forgiven for not realizing the 3 games is even the same series if they didn't know the names of the titles. Andromeda basically threw out all the work done from the Trilogy to chase stupid open world trends and Anthem was...well Anthem. At most Bioware has reused Art Assets a handful of times in recent years. FromSoft knows what they wanna make, and players can take it or leave it, their not for everyone. Bioware's problem is, they seem to never know what they want to do, but more than anything, seem to hate the way they used to make games, because they refuse to go back to that despite having no other ideas seemingly. Granted, EA could be forcing them to not go back to the old way of making games, but I don't think that's entirely true, as Bioware has famously said that EA "gives them enough rope to hang themselves". Now weather that statement is still true in recent years after several failures in a row, who knows.
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Post by Spectr61 on May 31, 2022 20:06:49 GMT
I agree.
I have long laid the myriad failures at Biower directly on their leadership, or lack thereof.
I keep hoping things will change, but this is past ridiculous...
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 1, 2022 6:35:33 GMT
I agree. I have long laid the myriad failures at Biower directly on their leadership, or lack thereof. I keep hoping things will change, but this is past ridiculous... With going for someone outside BioWare to run the studio I think its a move in the right direction. They need someone to make the hard decisions and tell people to deal with it, for I think that was something that was needed during the issues with BioWare Edmonton and BioWare Montreal if the reports on the issues between them were true. The studios were working independently learning Frostbite while making their games. I think a lot of wasted time could have been removed if they were working together and sharing ideas, but the reports made it sound like they weren't talking about much. I actually have more faith in the next Dragon Age game then I will in the next Mass Effect game if they move it to UE5 for its going backwards again and starting from scratch and probably spending months getting the basic building blocks developed. My concern is if they change engines again its just going to be another Andromeda situation where they were chasing too many fires to focus on the game itself.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 1, 2022 7:43:22 GMT
I agree. I have long laid the myriad failures at Biower directly on their leadership, or lack thereof. I keep hoping things will change, but this is past ridiculous... With going for someone outside BioWare to run the studio I think its a move in the right direction. They need someone to make the hard decisions and tell people to deal with it, for I think that was something that was needed during the issues with BioWare Edmonton and BioWare Montreal if the reports on the issues between them were true. The studios were working independently learning Frostbite while making their games. I think a lot of wasted time could have been removed if they were working together and sharing ideas, but the reports made it sound like they weren't talking about much. I actually have more faith in the next Dragon Age game then I will in the next Mass Effect game if they move it to UE5 for its going backwards again and starting from scratch and probably spending months getting the basic building blocks developed. My concern is if they change engines again its just going to be another Andromeda situation where they were chasing too many fires to focus on the game itself. It's important to note several things here. 1) Frostbite was not getting any easier for them. Jason's articles made that fairly clear. UE5 is basically the ultimate game engine, pre-designed for basically every need, the learning curve will be much much shorter as it wont have to be beaten into submission first. 2) Andromeda was given 7 years, and wasted almost all of it on pipe dreams. If this new Studio Head is able to make the hard decisions as you suspect, those first 5 and a half years wouldn't be wasted on stupid crap. Andromeda was slap dashed together in 18 months, as per the Bioware standard of late. 18 months and they managed put that together. As much as I don't like the game, I have to be realistic. There are much worse games than Andromeda out there. I have unfortunately played several of them. If they are given a focused, dedicated vision for a full 7 years? using an Engine that's actually cooperative? I can't even imagine what that game could have been.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 1, 2022 13:07:23 GMT
With going for someone outside BioWare to run the studio I think its a move in the right direction. They need someone to make the hard decisions and tell people to deal with it, for I think that was something that was needed during the issues with BioWare Edmonton and BioWare Montreal if the reports on the issues between them were true. The studios were working independently learning Frostbite while making their games. I think a lot of wasted time could have been removed if they were working together and sharing ideas, but the reports made it sound like they weren't talking about much. I actually have more faith in the next Dragon Age game then I will in the next Mass Effect game if they move it to UE5 for its going backwards again and starting from scratch and probably spending months getting the basic building blocks developed. My concern is if they change engines again its just going to be another Andromeda situation where they were chasing too many fires to focus on the game itself. It's important to note several things here. 1) Frostbite was not getting any easier for them. Jason's articles made that fairly clear. UE5 is basically the ultimate game engine, pre-designed for basically every need, the learning curve will be much much shorter as it wont have to be beaten into submission first. 2) Andromeda was given 7 years, and wasted almost all of it on pipe dreams. If this new Studio Head is able to make the hard decisions as you suspect, those first 5 and a half years wouldn't be wasted on stupid crap. Andromeda was slap dashed together in 18 months, as per the Bioware standard of late. 18 months and they managed put that together. As much as I don't like the game, I have to be realistic. There are much worse games than Andromeda out there. I have unfortunately played several of them. If they are given a focused, dedicated vision for a full 7 years? using an Engine that's actually cooperative? I can't even imagine what that game could have been. Personal bias here, but I don't take Jason Schreier without a second opinion. I find he editorializes a lot of his content to the point I am not sure if its his source talking or its his opinion. I also don't take any gaming article to be 100% accurate to the situation they are reporting on. Its all clickbait now and laziness to make clickbait. 1) Its not about a learning curve, its about institutional knowledge and what they have already created and the time needed to catch up to that. They don't need to do those thing with Frostbite for they already exist over the last decade of development at BioWare. No matter how much UE5 has built into it, there is going to be a need for something to be developed and/or altered to fit what a studio needs it to do. How long is up for debate and if it was a completely clean slate and BioWare was throwing everything out and starting from square 1 then UE probably makes more sense, but that isn't this situation. 2) I don't believe that if they were working on UE with Andromeda it would have been any better under the exact same circumstances, the leadership would have been chasing pipe dreams all day long regardless of the game engine used. Then 18 months prior to release they would have a new person taking on leadership and piecing together what has been already created and making new content to try and make a coherent game out of the mess the prior decision making process created. It might have not been seven years, but it still would have been a management problem damaging the game. I just don't see how switching a video game engine would be zero sum at the end of development of a new game. That is where my viewpoint is right now for I think the first game of an engine swap no matter how easy UE might be to develop for or how complex Frostbite is for development. I just see that in some ways there is either going to be a reduction in the game or sales expectations will be higher to cover increased costs which might kill the IP or studio if it has any issues. If they were being successful I don't see the same level of issues arising, but then if they were being successful they wouldn't need to switch either.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 1, 2022 15:32:07 GMT
It's important to note several things here. 1) Frostbite was not getting any easier for them. Jason's articles made that fairly clear. UE5 is basically the ultimate game engine, pre-designed for basically every need, the learning curve will be much much shorter as it wont have to be beaten into submission first. 2) Andromeda was given 7 years, and wasted almost all of it on pipe dreams. If this new Studio Head is able to make the hard decisions as you suspect, those first 5 and a half years wouldn't be wasted on stupid crap. Andromeda was slap dashed together in 18 months, as per the Bioware standard of late. 18 months and they managed put that together. As much as I don't like the game, I have to be realistic. There are much worse games than Andromeda out there. I have unfortunately played several of them. If they are given a focused, dedicated vision for a full 7 years? using an Engine that's actually cooperative? I can't even imagine what that game could have been. Personal bias here, but I don't take Jason Schreier without a second opinion. I find he editorializes a lot of his content to the point I am not sure if its his source talking or its his opinion. I also don't take any gaming article to be 100% accurate to the situation they are reporting on. Its all clickbait now and laziness to make clickbait. 1) Its not about a learning curve, its about institutional knowledge and what they have already created and the time needed to catch up to that. They don't need to do those thing with Frostbite for they already exist over the last decade of development at BioWare. No matter how much UE5 has built into it, there is going to be a need for something to be developed and/or altered to fit what a studio needs it to do. How long is up for debate and if it was a completely clean slate and BioWare was throwing everything out and starting from square 1 then UE probably makes more sense, but that isn't this situation. 2) I don't believe that if they were working on UE with Andromeda it would have been any better under the exact same circumstances, the leadership would have been chasing pipe dreams all day long regardless of the game engine used. Then 18 months prior to release they would have a new person taking on leadership and piecing together what has been already created and making new content to try and make a coherent game out of the mess the prior decision making process created. It might have not been seven years, but it still would have been a management problem damaging the game. I just don't see how switching a video game engine would be zero sum at the end of development of a new game. That is where my viewpoint is right now for I think the first game of an engine swap no matter how easy UE might be to develop for or how complex Frostbite is for development. I just see that in some ways there is either going to be a reduction in the game or sales expectations will be higher to cover increased costs which might kill the IP or studio if it has any issues. If they were being successful I don't see the same level of issues arising, but then if they were being successful they wouldn't need to switch either. As I said, I was speaking in hypotheticals in regards to ME Next. You said you suspect the new Studio Head is someone whose actually willing to make the hard decisions, and get a coherent vision going. If that's true, and Bioware is given 7 years for ME again, then regardless of a new engine their bound to have a product superior to what they've done lately, because it's not going to take them 5 and half years to figure out Unreal 5. Epic is very forthcoming with Tech Support for Unreal. Whereas according to what we heard, Bioware could never get Frostbite support from DICE due to Bioware being a low priority studio. Either way, continuing with Frostbite would have imo been a massive mistake and only making Bioware's job harder than it needs to be. Definition of Insanity and all that. if your game isn't an FPS, Frostbite sucks ass, there's really no way around it. If that wasn't the case, Bioware wouldn't be changing Engines. They clearly did so because they think UE5 will be easier for them to use. That's the only possible explanation for the change.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 1, 2022 16:42:56 GMT
It's important to note several things here. 1) Frostbite was not getting any easier for them. Jason's articles made that fairly clear. UE5 is basically the ultimate game engine, pre-designed for basically every need, the learning curve will be much much shorter as it wont have to be beaten into submission first. 2) Andromeda was given 7 years, and wasted almost all of it on pipe dreams. If this new Studio Head is able to make the hard decisions as you suspect, those first 5 and a half years wouldn't be wasted on stupid crap. Andromeda was slap dashed together in 18 months, as per the Bioware standard of late. 18 months and they managed put that together. As much as I don't like the game, I have to be realistic. There are much worse games than Andromeda out there. I have unfortunately played several of them. If they are given a focused, dedicated vision for a full 7 years? using an Engine that's actually cooperative? I can't even imagine what that game could have been. Personal bias here, but I don't take Jason Schreier without a second opinion. I find he editorializes a lot of his content to the point I am not sure if its his source talking or its his opinion. I also don't take any gaming article to be 100% accurate to the situation they are reporting on. Its all clickbait now and laziness to make clickbait. 1) Its not about a learning curve, its about institutional knowledge and what they have already created and the time needed to catch up to that. They don't need to do those thing with Frostbite for they already exist over the last decade of development at BioWare. No matter how much UE5 has built into it, there is going to be a need for something to be developed and/or altered to fit what a studio needs it to do. How long is up for debate and if it was a completely clean slate and BioWare was throwing everything out and starting from square 1 then UE probably makes more sense, but that isn't this situation. 2) I don't believe that if they were working on UE with Andromeda it would have been any better under the exact same circumstances, the leadership would have been chasing pipe dreams all day long regardless of the game engine used. Then 18 months prior to release they would have a new person taking on leadership and piecing together what has been already created and making new content to try and make a coherent game out of the mess the prior decision making process created. It might have not been seven years, but it still would have been a management problem damaging the game. I just don't see how switching a video game engine would be zero sum at the end of development of a new game. That is where my viewpoint is right now for I think the first game of an engine swap no matter how easy UE might be to develop for or how complex Frostbite is for development. I just see that in some ways there is either going to be a reduction in the game or sales expectations will be higher to cover increased costs which might kill the IP or studio if it has any issues. If they were being successful I don't see the same level of issues arising, but then if they were being successful they wouldn't need to switch either.
I think some people forget that an engine isn't going to make a game good or bad, there are probably a lot more bad games made with any version of Unreal than there good games made with it, and while Frostbite hasn't the record or pedigree that Unreal the same holds true with it, or any other video game engine out there.
Yeah you make a fucking masterpiece and the biggest piece of shit with the same engine. It's how the devs use it, the management, art style, genre of the game, story, voice acting, writing, and etc that makes a great game not if the game is using the latest version of Unreal, Frostbite, Unity, and/or any other engine out there.
From what I've seen of Unreal 5 it does photo realistic style extremely well (it animated video and demos at the least) but I haven't seen how it would handle a game like the reboot of Saints Row or the Fable series can handle more cartoony style characters or how about a surreal art style? I've also heard that whoever owns the Unreal engine is really trying to get into CGI animation and making a push for companies like Disney Pixar, Lucasfilm, Weta, Dreamworks, and others to use it for their movies, TV shows, special effects, commercials, and so on. How true this is I don't know since I don't pay attention to what software is being used to make a game, movie, TV show, special effect shot, and commercials. Because that is the least interesting to me.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 1, 2022 18:23:38 GMT
I agree. I have long laid the myriad failures at Biower directly on their leadership, or lack thereof. I keep hoping things will change, but this is past ridiculous... With going for someone outside BioWare to run the studio I think its a move in the right direction. They need someone to make the hard decisions and tell people to deal with it, for I think that was something that was needed during the issues with BioWare Edmonton and BioWare Montreal if the reports on the issues between them were true. The studios were working independently learning Frostbite while making their games. I think a lot of wasted time could have been removed if they were working together and sharing ideas, but the reports made it sound like they weren't talking about much. I actually have more faith in the next Dragon Age game then I will in the next Mass Effect game if they move it to UE5 for its going backwards again and starting from scratch and probably spending months getting the basic building blocks developed. My concern is if they change engines again its just going to be another Andromeda situation where they were chasing too many fires to focus on the game itself. Exactly. The progression with FB was there. Anthem was much better than their first FB game mechanics-wise. Throwing out 10 years of learning and expertise is counterintuitive, especially if DA4 is on FB and that adds another 5 years or so of even more learning and expertise with the engine. To switch ME Next to a new engine after that seems to be starting over again. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
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Post by Ravenfeeder on Jun 1, 2022 18:46:36 GMT
Throwing out 10 years of learning and expertise is counterintuitive, especially if DA4 is on FB and that adds another 5 years or so of even more learning and expertise with the engine. Given that UE is becoming an industry standard set of knowledge this might not be as bad as it sounds. They are hiring on a load of new people to the team lead roles, most of whom have a much higher chance of knowing UE than FB. They may also be thinking ahead that they want to use UE in more games going forward and they have to make the transition sometime, so it might as well be now.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 1, 2022 18:58:58 GMT
Throwing out 10 years of learning and expertise is counterintuitive, especially if DA4 is on FB and that adds another 5 years or so of even more learning and expertise with the engine. Given that UE is becoming an industry standard set of knowledge this might not be as bad as it sounds. They are hiring on a load of new people to the team lead roles, most of whom have a much higher chance of knowing UE than FB. They may also be thinking ahead that they want to use UE in more games going forward and they have to make the transition sometime, so it might as well be now. Using that logic, why not DA4 on UE?
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Post by Ravenfeeder on Jun 1, 2022 19:37:30 GMT
Using that logic, why not DA4 on UE? Because it was already too far along when they made the decision? Or they already had too many assets they were planning to reuse from DAI? The DA4 team is already in place and knows FB? MEnext is going to be nearly all new stuff, so they may feel that is the best place to do the transition? I don't know their inner thoughts, just putting out possible reasons for them doing it.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 2, 2022 15:30:25 GMT
Could be.
But, assuming the DA4 team, proficient (I hope) with FB, moves to ME Next, wouldn't that argue for keeping FB?
Who knows, but then again, this is Biower, so I expect, well, not much in terms of logic or strategic planning...
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 2, 2022 16:25:52 GMT
Using that logic, why not DA4 on UE? Because it was already too far along when they made the decision? Or they already had too many assets they were planning to reuse from DAI? The DA4 team is already in place and knows FB? MEnext is going to be nearly all new stuff, so they may feel that is the best place to do the transition? I don't know their inner thoughts, just putting out possible reasons for them doing it.
I don't think BioWare committed that UE5 for the next Mass Effect game they're considering using it. They might use it or they might not.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2022 16:38:27 GMT
They have said they haven’t even really started planning the story of the next Mass Effect game yet, so I doubt they’ve decided on things like game engine.
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