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Post by Ravenfeeder on Jun 2, 2022 17:16:05 GMT
All the job adverts for Mass Effect specifically mention UE and do not mention FB. The DA adverts do not mention UE. Whilst nothing may have been fully decided yet, it does point in a certain direction.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 2, 2022 18:16:06 GMT
I certainly hope it'll be UE. It shoud make things a hell of a lot easier for the modding community if it's built in such an open engine. FB was quite the pain for the modders to figure out and had a lot less access points for them to work with. While I am not sure if baked UE5 would be as "easy" to access as baked UE3 was, just the fact that Epic puts a lot of information out there should help.
So that alone would make me happy to see the game come out in UE.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2022 18:18:11 GMT
I hope it is Frostbite. I've had a lot less issues with games on that engine compared to Unreal. Runs better, looks better, just is better.
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Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 2, 2022 20:57:07 GMT
Have to agree with Hanako.
Plus, ever seen Wavebend's mods to Biower's first FB game, DAI? Amongst others, he created "Iron Man" type flying all around the map, which Biower, much later, got around to doing for Anthem. (Anthem flying was well done, btw.)
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 2, 2022 21:22:09 GMT
Have to agree with Hanako. Plus, ever seen Wavebend's mods to Biower's first FB game, DAI? Amongst others, he created "Iron Man" type flying all around the map, which Biower, much later, got around to doing for Anthem. (Anthem flying was well done, btw.) Don't get me wrong, what the Andromeda and DA:I modders have achieved in those games is incredible, no doubt.
I am just saying, you don't have access to the game's assets and scripting on the same level in Frostbite. I doubt something like, say, the Extended Galaxy Map mod or other really extensive content mods would be possible in FB. And I do like a lot of the options this sort of stuff brought to the table, especially for ME3.
And I disagree that FB looks better than UE5 per se. a lot of it depends on execution and if you look at some of the demo stuff that is already out there for UE5, there is plenty of spectacular stuff there as well. So yea, I am gonna stick to it, if it'll be UE5 I am all for it.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 3, 2022 2:29:28 GMT
I hope it is Frostbite. I've had a lot less issues with games on that engine compared to Unreal. Runs better, looks better, just is better. I'm sorry, if you think Andromeda had better graphics than this, you need glasses lol No other engine offers the suit of tools UE5 does. Period. If your making a Zelda game, obviously your gonna be using something else. But for any developer that's making a photorealistic game, then anything other than UE5 is just nerfing your product for no reason at this time. Frostbite and the others might get there in the future, but right now? it's not even a question.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 3, 2022 6:50:02 GMT
If it's "not even a question" why hasn't Biower moved DA4 there? Or formally announced ME5 will be there?
Is Biower "intentionally nerfing" their next two flagship releases years before actual release?
Anthem looked and played good on a High end PC with FB at 4k with high FPS.
Recently Death Stranding (Decima Engine, designed for consoles but has a great PC port) also looks and plays well at 4k.
Elden Ring (Seikiro Engine, also designed for consoles and a gimping fucking controller - has a shit PC port), and though it looks great at 4k, playing suffers greatly from problems with that goddam port job.
So maybe UE5 is so godlike - and like you say it's "not even an arguement", but I can't suss out why Biower, or other studios in this genre, aren't all dumping whatever they are using and jumping on the UE5 train.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 3, 2022 16:58:47 GMT
I hope it is Frostbite. I've had a lot less issues with games on that engine compared to Unreal. Runs better, looks better, just is better. I'm sorry, if you think Andromeda had better graphics than this, you need glasses lol No other engine offers the suit of tools UE5 does. Period. If your making a Zelda game, obviously your gonna be using something else. But for any developer that's making a photorealistic game, then anything other than UE5 is just nerfing your product for no reason at this time. Frostbite and the others might get there in the future, but right now? it's not even a question. I wouldn't go that far. I am a fan of UE5 (and have used the editor a little myself, already, it really is impressive). But still, one has to keep in mind that what we have so far from Epic themselves and from other creators (there is a lot of spectacular UE5 material floating around on yt) are tech demos and in-engine videos.
Once you have to make a real game, where things have to be rendered in real time in bulk with underlying game mechanics scripts running, etc., etc. compromises will need to be made, which amy not apply to these smaller demos.
Remember this tech demo for UE3?
I don't think we ever got an actual game on that level in UE3. So tech demos (even playable ones) are one thing, games are another.
In the end, I won't judge any game on it's engine alone anyway. Engines (even UE3 back in the day) are mostly very adaptable, it always depedns on what the devs do with it. The only reason why I do want to make a case for UE5 for MENext is - as I said above - because I think it will aid moddability, which to me is an important factor. But that's really all.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 3, 2022 17:55:43 GMT
Remember this tech demo for UE3? I don't think we ever got an actual game on that level in UE3. So tech demos (even playable ones) are one thing, games are another.
In the end, I won't judge any game on it's engine alone anyway. Engines (even UE3 back in the day) are mostly very adaptable, it always depedns on what the devs do with it. Yeah we did not, because as usual, that is running on then highest of highend GPU. There are no game mechanics, no physics but most importantly, no budget limits imposed except what that particular GPU could output at that time. Those are... demo scenes, some are even just videos rendered from the engine with high antialiasing.. I know some people who did those for ATi (back then) etc. Some of them make games nowadays. And yes, the underlined part is the thing people forget. Its what you do with it and what is the desired graphical/gameplay output and so on. So many variables. EDIT: I mean the demos are impressive for sure when ran in realtime, theyre just not games. We havent seen even UE5 Nanite or Lumen used in realtime game yet and they both have some limitations still... and still it is very exciting to see this kind of polygon renderer with amazing LOD system if I may say so..
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 4, 2022 7:49:40 GMT
If it's "not even a question" why hasn't Biower moved DA4 there? Or formally announced ME5 will be there? Is Biower "intentionally nerfing" their next two flagship releases years before actual release? Anthem looked and played good on a High end PC with FB at 4k with high FPS. Recently Death Stranding (Decima Engine, designed for consoles but has a great PC port) also looks and plays well at 4k. Elden Ring (Seikiro Engine, also designed for consoles and a gimping fucking controller - has a shit PC port), and though it looks great at 4k, playing suffers greatly from problems with that goddam port job. So maybe UE5 is so godlike - and like you say it's "not even an arguement", but I can't suss out why Biower, or other studios in this genre, aren't all dumping whatever they are using and jumping on the UE5 train. Because DA4 has been rebooted twice already? and is too far along to change that now? asking why for DA4 is just being facetious. They posted multiple job openings for UE in regards to ME. They wouldn't be doing that if they planned on using Frostbite, that's just common sense. You realize these games have been in the works for years right? you dont just port assets over to a new Engine and keep going like nothing happend dude. That's not how the technology works. Also devs might have aesthetic preferences in terms of art style...but you cannot make an art style argument for ME, because it's always had a realistic style.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 4, 2022 19:02:44 GMT
Facetious, common sense, how technology works, and dude!
Any more brilliant aspersions, accusations or assumptions?
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 11, 2022 0:10:01 GMT
Back to the original topic: should other developers be allowed to make Mass Effect video games? In our world the answer right now would be NO, because EA won't allow that. But even if they did I think it would be huge mistake. Because how many good Star Trek video games have been made? I can think of only one Star Trek Voyager Elite Force (and that's a game I've only heard is good I haven't played and never will for a lot of reasons) for such long running franchise and for such a vast fictional universe to have one game that is considered good is sad and while I do hope that changes in the future, it shows that having a large number of developers to make games for one franchise a huge risk that can actually hurt the franchise/brand/universe or whatever you want to call it in the long run. More content does not mean good content. I know some one will say Star Wars has a lot of good games and yeah they do but they also have their fair share shit games too, it's just when Star Wars gets a good game like KOTOR or Fallen Jedi a lot of they lesser and forgettable crap are well...forgotten about and/or forgiven. I think that would happen to Mass Effect even if EA were to allow studios that they own have a shot at Mass Effect even fan favorite studios say out of 5 top studios how many would actually make a great Mass Effect game? If we got one was just average not great but not a piece of shit either it would be a miracle.
Maybe it's time for Mass Effect to evolve beyond just being a video game series and move into a sci-fi franchise and take the leap into Hollywood as a movie and/or TV show, maybe with more of focus on new novels and comics, hell maybe do another anime movie might be fun. I'm starting to think that Mass Effect just as a video game series has reached the limit of what it can be as a video game series.
That is my opinions on the subject.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2022 2:59:56 GMT
Counterpoint: Until EA bottlenecked the entire pipeline by buying an exclusive on Star Wars for 10 years, the Star Wars titles were developed by multiple studios and were for the most part a good product on average, some exceptional. Sure, LucasArts was overseeing things then, but so many good developers made good Star Wars games.
What is necessary is a firm grasp of the lore and someone in charge of it at BioWare. Their entire job is managing a small group of loremaster/continuity supervisors, making sure any peripheral product is in line with known lore, getting approval when they are expanding the lore, and get guidance on any "new" things they want to add to our universe.
This team will be employed by BioWare - the IP is the valuable thing, if it is treated with respect then I support licensing to other interested developers...
Fallout: New Vegas would never have happened if Obsidian didn't pitch it again and again - they really wanted to make a Fallout game, and it turned out to be a pretty popular one all things considered.
What I'm saying is, like with anything, managed well this could be a wonderful thing. It is all in implementation. BioWare doesn't have a great track record with this and the novelization of their IPs, as we know from Deception and the rancid work of Dietz getting through Biower filters, so they would need to be committed to it or it is indeed a bad situation.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 11, 2022 15:03:19 GMT
Counterpoint: Until EA bottlenecked the entire pipeline by buying an exclusive on Star Wars for 10 years, the Star Wars titles were developed by multiple studios and were for the most part a good product on average, some exceptional. Sure, LucasArts was overseeing things then, but so many good developers made good Star Wars games. What is necessary is a firm grasp of the lore and someone in charge of it at BioWare. Their entire job is managing a small group of loremaster/continuity supervisors, making sure any peripheral product is in line with known lore, getting approval when they are expanding the lore, and get guidance on any "new" things they want to add to our universe. This team will be employed by BioWare - the IP is the valuable thing, if it is treated with respect then I support licensing to other interested developers... Fallout: New Vegas would never have happened if Obsidian didn't pitch it again and again - they really wanted to make a Fallout game, and it turned out to be a pretty popular one all things considered. What I'm saying is, like with anything, managed well this could be a wonderful thing. It is all in implementation. BioWare doesn't have a great track record with this and the novelization of their IPs, as we know from Deception and the rancid work of Dietz getting through Biower filters, so they would need to be committed to it or it is indeed a bad situation. That is indeed the crux of it. Bioware seems to be fairly incapable or unwilling of managing the lore in their own releases, nevermind the lore of the novels or comics. Star Wars did indeed have a lot great concept games before the EA deal, and several very promising titles were being worked on before the Disney purchase. Lord of the Rings went through the same phase in the early 2000's. Games from multiple studios, some good, some great, most mediocre.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 11, 2022 21:19:08 GMT
All the job adverts for Mass Effect specifically mention UE and do not mention FB. The DA adverts do not mention UE. Whilst nothing may have been fully decided yet, it does point in a certain direction. I don't see how. Unless you work at an EA studio you won't have access to Frostbite, but Unreal is more commonly used. Its the second most popular engine for mobile titles behind Unity. So there is a lot of experience with the engine outside of EA. If they are looking for Frostbite experience then they would be hiring from other EA studios and not publicly asking for those positions.
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Post by Evil on Jun 11, 2022 23:52:30 GMT
All the job adverts for Mass Effect specifically mention UE and do not mention FB. The DA adverts do not mention UE. Whilst nothing may have been fully decided yet, it does point in a certain direction. I don't see how. Unless you work at an EA studio you won't have access to Frostbite, but Unreal is more commonly used. Its the second most popular engine for mobile titles behind Unity. So there is a lot of experience with the engine outside of EA. If they are looking for Frostbite experience then they would be hiring from other EA studios and not publicly asking for those positions. In some counties, such as mine, theres laws that state that job vacancies HAVE to be publicly advertised, regardless of if the company wants to keep the role in-house or not. I think Caneda's one of those countries.
The most common work around is to put in a job requirement that can't be filled by external candidates. If Bioware wanted to hire EA staff to use Frostbite, the advert would heavily emphasize Frostbite experience to filter out unwanted external applicants.
Either they're looking for external applicants and are willing to spend months or even years teaching them how to cludge Frostbite into something semi-fit for purpose, or they're advertising Unreal because thats what they're using.
Given Bioware and EA both have VERY bad reputations for how they treat staff, I can't see them training people up on Frostbite. Or ANYTHING for that matter.
I'd expect them to hire short term staff who are pre-trained, make 'em work 60+ hour weeks to crunch the game, then sack 'em the moment they aren't needed any more.
That reputation supports the switch to Unreal theory. Its kinda hard to exploit pre-trained short term workers when you're using proprietary software.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 12, 2022 0:12:02 GMT
I don't see how. Unless you work at an EA studio you won't have access to Frostbite, but Unreal is more commonly used. Its the second most popular engine for mobile titles behind Unity. So there is a lot of experience with the engine outside of EA. If they are looking for Frostbite experience then they would be hiring from other EA studios and not publicly asking for those positions. In some counties, such as mine, theres laws that state that job vacancies HAVE to be publicly advertised, regardless of if the company wants to keep the role in-house or not. I think Caneda's one of those countries.
The most common work around is to put in a job requirement that can't be filled by external candidates. If Bioware wanted to hire EA staff to use Frostbite, the advert would heavily emphasize Frostbite experience to filter out unwanted external applicants.
Either they're looking for external applicants and are willing to spend months or even years teaching them how to cludge Frostbite into something semi-fit for purpose, or they're advertising Unreal because thats what they're using.
Given Bioware and EA both have VERY bad reputations for how they treat staff, I can't see them training people up on Frostbite. Or ANYTHING for that matter.
I'd expect them to hire short term staff who are pre-trained, make 'em work 60+ hour weeks to crunch the game, then sack 'em the moment they aren't needed any more.
That reputation supports the switch to Unreal theory. Its kinda hard to exploit pre-trained short term workers when you're using proprietary software.
I am just going by what AskAGameDev said a couple of years ago, but EA doesn't have that bad of a reputation anymore within developer circles. Even BioWare's crunch was known to be "industry standard" which is they would crunch near the end of a project and then through any delay other then that it was your standard 40hr work week. That is why the crunch was bad at the end of Andromeda and Anthem because they had extended delays. Its why I am glad to see they haven't put a release date on the next Dragon Age game yet, for that means they aren't in a position of needing to crunch yet. Most studios seem to have about a 20% turnover with each project so looking for new people isn't new and frankly I wouldn't want to live in Alberta either. In Canada you don't otherwise many unions would be breaking the law for they have internal postings and external postings. Most people that join an union I have heard of are people taking basic positions like a seasonal position and then seeking work in their fields after getting into the company. All I have recently about the conditions at BioWare aside from AskAGameDev is the "soul crushing crunch" editorialization from Jason Schreier, but he conveniently leaves out what the crunch really was and frankly I have worked with a person that would have described the +30min overtime each day we were working the same way. If you have another source that doesn't quote that article I would be interested in seeing it. Edit: Here is the post from AskAGameDev Anthem Crunch
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