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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 6:49:29 GMT
You're sent back in time to a feudal society.
You arrive as an already acknowledged dictator and ruler of a reasonable sized city-state.
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What type of government do you attempt to leave your city-state with after your death?
(For purposes of this question assume you have the longevity, health, and gender-equality to set up a dynasty if you so choose.)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 19, 2022 7:51:59 GMT
I guess it depends a bit on the situation the city state is in.
If it were an island city state, I guess some form of democracy. Maybe every five years eligible people vote for a Governor that runs things and can make and change laws (except the one about a five year term).
Harder if the city state is part of a larger nation or body of land. Since this is ‘travel back in time’ and not ‘made up world’, wars have been started over differing types of government. Maybe some kind of oligarchy. A council of city elders or experts (a general and a farmer, for instance) each representing a section of the city and they lead or rule by consensus or majority vote between themselves.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 19, 2022 22:26:56 GMT
A benevolent and enlightened dictator. I'd try to instate the concept of the ruler being the 'servant' of "his" people. Maybe build the court in such a way that makes it possible to write it as a law, which the court gets legitimate means to uphold. The ruler is dictator, yes, but only as far as his oath, which he must swear, allows him.
I think that would be the best to hope for. Medieval society, we're talking about way too little prosperity for making anything like a democracy a positive possibility.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 23:05:01 GMT
A benevolent and enlightened dictator. I'd try to instate the concept of the ruler being the 'servant' of "his" people. Maybe build the court in such a way that makes it possible to write it as a law, which the court gets legitimate means to uphold. The ruler is dictator, yes, but only as far as his oath, which he must swear, allows him. I think that would be the best to hope for. Medieval society, we're talking about way to little prosperity for making anything like a democracy a positive possibility. I'm in total agreement.
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Post by Beerfish on May 19, 2022 23:44:10 GMT
Here is an image of myself in my new job as feudal leader.
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Post by mousestalker on May 20, 2022 11:46:02 GMT
I would adopt the words of a very wise, yet fictional, woman as my guide.
"All shall love me and despair."
I would not plan for my succession as that would be admitting my mortality. I would have anyone who broached the subject thrown into the bottomless Pit of Immortality so they would have ample time to contemplate their poor life choices. There would also be free pie every Sunday.
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Post by rewindbutton on May 20, 2022 13:40:50 GMT
acknowledged dictator and ruler reasonable sized city-state You don't give too much to work with here. It's tricky question. Are we talking about feudal Japan, where you are the Daimyo, or perhaps Shogun? Is the land constantly ravished by war? Or is it a European setting, where religion is probably playing a big part? In any case, the change has to be subtle and incremental. Maybe allocate some power to the Lords first, but to make sure no-one gets any ideas, form a cencorate and a spy network. Promote literacy, and give peasants a way out of poverty, but at the same time make sure radical ideas don't take root. Integrate church as closely to the State as possible. Keep the merchants happy at any cost. They are independent, and not obliged to you in any way, but they pay taxes to the realm. Maintain a strong military and take part in wars, but don't overreach or overspend. If all goes well, start tossing new ideas and words, like voting, parliament and monarchy. Perhaps demote yourself to a rank of Lord Chancellor. So, the best I could manage is hereditary monarchy or an oligarchy, in one lifetime.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 18:22:45 GMT
There would also be free pie every Sunday. What kind?
We talkin' blueberry, pecan, key lime, pumpkin, or strawberry-rhubarb?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 20, 2022 20:10:45 GMT
There would also be free pie every Sunday. People wouldn’t be free to starve? State overreach!
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Post by mousestalker on May 20, 2022 20:28:01 GMT
There would also be free pie every Sunday. What kind?
We talkin' blueberry, pecan, key lime, pumpkin, or strawberry-rhubarb?
Whatever is in season. Funds are not unlimited and Momma needs new frocks.
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Post by Beerfish on May 20, 2022 20:46:48 GMT
I would adopt the words of a very wise, yet fictional, woman as my guide. "All shall love me and despair." I would not plan for my succession as that would be admitting my mortality. I would have anyone who broached the subject thrown into the bottomless Pit of Immortality so they would have ample time to contemplate their poor life choices. There would also be free pie every Sunday. Snort!
Not being able to clone yourself is a serious drawback in your plan. The pie is a nice touch though.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on May 22, 2022 15:31:59 GMT
This thread weirds me out a little, because I have pondered this exact scenario for as long as I can remember.
My most relevant thought after many years of pondering it is that, regardless of what decisions I or anyone might make, adjusting to life without plumbing and electricity would suck giant donkey balls.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on May 22, 2022 22:16:41 GMT
What type of government do you attempt to leave your city-state with after your death? (For purposes of this question assume you have the longevity, health, and gender-equality to set up a dynasty if you so choose.)
Benevolent and highly militaristic dictator, handpicked by me and raised with all the modern knowledge and values, pursuing the creation of a modern humanistic caste-less, servant-less free-thinking, well educated and unreligious society that is also capable to protect itself and its new values. In feudal times I only see a dictatorship working, and to protect the revolutionary and forward thinking society from envious countries and religious fanatic groups I'd ensure my successor would continue to put a considerable amount of the GDP into the military to arm it with the best weapons and tactics possible, far outclassing other countries. Because in the end, all technology, knowledge and progress is worth absolutely nothing if you cannot protect it from theft, corruption and destruction by the ignorant and evil. This thread weirds me out a little, because I have pondered this exact scenario for as long as I can remember. My most relevant thought after many years of pondering it is that, regardless of what decisions I or anyone might make, adjusting to life without plumbing and electricity would suck giant donkey balls. Building a proper sanitation infrastructure would be on top of my list since all efforts to improve society are worth little if your population has to wade through layers of their own shit every day and die from cholera, dysentery and the plague. The ancient romans managed it pretty well with public bath houses and sewers. Next thing would be to get rid of religious superstition and give people a proper education. Create wells with lots of fresh water, build hospitals, build public schools. If that's done you have got a very good base to build upon.
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Post by Beerfish on May 23, 2022 3:54:04 GMT
Damn aristocrats, using paper from them there learning books to wipe when all we peasants have are leaves!
REVOLUTION!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 16:10:54 GMT
I would immediately work on destroying religious institutions and replacing them with educational infrastructure. Let intelligence be the goal of the people, not some abstract "salvation". Fully prepared to snuff the true believers, with malice.
Gardens of any sort must contain food. City streets and parks will be filled with fruiting trees and bushes.
People will be required to serve the state as part of their education, for no less than 4 years and no more than 8. This service is flexible and all people will be rotated through the jobs. Public servants are expected to be Jacks of all trades. They will master one after their service.
Parliamentary positions will be filled at random from the census. Everyone will serve at some point. One term maximum limit, 6 years. Same system for judges. Everyone has to be educated, everyone has to take their time in service seriously as they answer to the electorate.
Me - I eat grapes. Pick the harem, then make sure the harem has what they want and need. Get a vasectomy, so there can be no royal lineage.
After I'm gone? No fucks to give, I did the best I could while I was where I was.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 26, 2022 23:50:28 GMT
This thread contains some people who just joke around, and it contains some people who seem to be highly delusional.
Life in medieval times was very, very hard. Basically, everybody worked very hard to just stay alive. And that is the normal, natural human condition. It is also the normal human condition that most people failed at that. Despite that many people, of those reaching sexual maturity, managed to have double digit number of children (but never alive at the same time, of course), populations seesawed up and down, but stayed small. There is an extreme lack of prosperity, and prosperity is needed to do anything at all, other than just survive.
The economy looks like this: Let's say that those things which have an intrinsic value, have something we will instead call "worthness". Only food, water, shelter, weapons and tools have worthness, nothing else. (I've split weapons into weapons and tools, as that probably fits people's concepts better). Other things, only have value, if somebody is willing to trade something for it, and that trade chain must start with things that have worthness. So let's rephrase that for clarity. Anything else, has value if, and only if, somebody is willing to trade items, that have worthness, for it. For other activities, there has to exist an excess of worthness.
Yet, precisely because prosperity is scarce, and because prosperity can be gained by taking other people's things, and maybe their time and hard work as well, as slaves, the very first and most important thing that any excess prosperity must be spent on, is military. And this is the raison d'etre for feudalism. Its only original purpose. Giant Ambush Beetle is quite wise in focusing on military. However, there are limits to what can be afforded without destroying the population under taxes.
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Post by mousestalker on May 27, 2022 0:23:56 GMT
This thread contains some people who just joke around, and it contains some people who seem to be highly delusional.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 27, 2022 15:15:09 GMT
This thread contains some people who just joke around, and it contains some people who seem to be highly delusional. - Oh, but I'm sure that always depends entirely on the context. 🧐 Don't worry, I'm not going to try to moderate threads. Preamble: Noun. a preliminary or preparatory statement; an introduction: Example: " what she said was by way of a preamble" ·
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Post by rewindbutton on May 27, 2022 16:55:18 GMT
But where does the OP say medieval times? It's feudal, so it could be Japan in the Edo period, or even bronze age China, some 3000 years ago.
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Post by mousestalker on May 27, 2022 17:03:28 GMT
It's feudal to continue this conversation, why don't we try having a renaissance of good discussion and try for some enlightenment? This current topic is baroque and there's no fixing it.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 27, 2022 17:17:32 GMT
But where does the OP say medieval times? It's feudal, so it could be Japan in the Edo period, or even bronze age China, some 3000 years ago. Certainly. I may have suppressed that. But same difference. It makes no difference for my points.
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