Sandetiger
N3
beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 378 Likes: 1,164
Member is Online
inherit
12424
0
Member is Online
1,164
Sandetiger
beez nuts
378
March 2023
sandetiger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Sandetiger on Sept 12, 2023 20:43:34 GMT
Link to the interviewThis is a bit of an older interview -- roughly 19 months old as of posting this -- but I had never seen it before, so I watched it today and I thought there were some interesting quotes to extract from it as a prescient hindsight in light of what we're seeing with DA:D's development, the EA restructuring, and the recent BioWare layoffs. I really wanted to post these in several threads (linked below) but the extracted quotes are so long that I felt they would clog up these respective threads and make it difficult for people to reply to the full body of content with -- particularly as there has been some cross pollination and with good reason. Extracted Quotes:Note: I've extracted the quotes from the video transcript and cleaned up some of the verbal redundancies and um's/uh's to streamline for reading, but it's not perfect. #1 On BioWare Magic & BioWare's studio size:- Another thing he talks about re: BioWare Magic™️ and why it "maybe worked in the past" is that BW used to ship way more games, and since being acquired by EA they've had release dates that have slipped more. So in the past, esp pre-EA, they would have much harder release dates, and whatever they churned together at the point of shipping was essentially what they got, because they would have to pivot so quickly to another game and another harder date. "And that's just what it is. And you're done."
- He also mentioned that there were sometimes issues with older/senior leadership who were used to the BioWare Magic™️ who sometimes interfered with the updated BioWare processes or couldn't Get With The Program because they still had a romantic notion of the BioWare Magic™️ of Old™️
I think it's something to eyeball as we talk about the layoffs and the studio size # Point #2 of the bullet points actually further validates the suspicion I've had that there may have been conflicts with senior developers and the direction EA/BioWare is going, but that's speculative on my part. #2 Regarding Frostbite as an engine and the idea that the grass is always greener on the other side:The thing that I find most interesting about this is the lack of respect for the work that was done before, and I can't help but wonder how that has impacted DA:D's development; especially with respect to the reboot of DA:D where it was built on Anthem's code base but ended up not being a live service game that was built on a framework designed for live service. Not a new question, per se, but it's illuminating to see how troubled BioWare's relationship with Frostbite has been, and it makes me wonder how much of DA:I and ME:A were able to be utilized for the kind of game DA:D is becoming, and how much they had to build from scratch again. #3 When asked if he thinks the "classic spirit of BioWare" is gone:^ This was asked in relation to the quote he's had attributed to him, in saying Dragon Age was "in good hands." #4 Additional perspective on EA and BioWare's relationship vis a vis the sports/shooter genre vs the RPG genre:This was of note to me because I don't think I've really seen anyone bring this up in the recent discussions around BioWare/EA and the "need a win" framing of the relationship. Particularly when we talk about the financials of EA, the split between EA Sports and EA Entertainment and where the money is coming in. #5 Mark's musing on the labor movement and how studios might restructure:^ This may be part of what we are seeing for the layoffs, but also with the development cycle for the next Mass Effect. See: extract #1, above.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 12, 2023 22:22:56 GMT
A lot of stuff rehashed and things I've suspected for awhile.
On team sizes made the exact same point and was basically insulted for it. Amusing point but as I said every situation is different and if you can't manage a good workload and don't have the right balance of chiefs to Indians then you're going to need a smaller team. This is doubly true when it's becoming clearer that BW has management issues ie the old guard not adapting.
Sub point kind of interesting how BW did go to longer dev cycles because of EA.
And suddenly the nightmare of Frostbite has an explanation. Dove tails with the above but if they were trying to dev three games at once with zero experience in engine all three games were collectively their first crack at it. Bright side means Dreadwolf has all that experience. Negative throwing baby out with bathwater.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 12, 2023 22:31:30 GMT
"This may be part of what we are seeing for the layoffs, but also with the development cycle for the next Mass Effect. See: extract #1, above."
No because some of the senior people, who should be part of the core teams, were involved in the layoffs. This was something a bit different.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 12, 2023 22:47:17 GMT
A lot of stuff rehashed and things I've suspected for awhile. On team sizes made the exact same point and was basically insulted for it. Amusing point but as I said every situation is different and if you can't manage a good workload and don't have the right balance of chiefs to Indians then you're going to need a smaller team. This is doubly true when it's becoming clearer that BW has management issues ie the old guard not adapting. Sub point kind of interesting how BW did go to longer dev cycles because of EA. And suddenly the nightmare of Frostbite has an explanation. Dove tails with the above but if they were trying to dev three games at once with zero experience in engine all three games were collectively their first crack at it. Bright side means Dreadwolf has all that experience. Negative throwing baby out with bathwater. EA wanted them to go down the open world path right? We knew that for about 5 years now ever since Manveer Heir gave the interview saying EA wanted Open Worlds because they're easier to monetise. Open worlds almost always mean (unless you do Ubisoft ... who have plenty of criticisms) longer dev cycles because they have more content. It's 100% not surprising TBH. It's nice to know that Bioware realises it tells its stories through characters, and that's what Bioware is about. Good thing only a couple of the writers from any of the Mass Effects are still at the studio. I would say that if what made Bioware "Bioware" are the stories the company tells through its characters and most of the writers known for those characters have gone (and remember Darrah said he still thinks the pedigree is there before Mary Kirby et all left or was laid off) then I would very much question whether the Classic "spirit" is still there after DAD is releases.
|
|
Sandetiger
N3
beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 378 Likes: 1,164
Member is Online
inherit
12424
0
Member is Online
1,164
Sandetiger
beez nuts
378
March 2023
sandetiger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Sandetiger on Sept 12, 2023 23:47:00 GMT
No because some of the senior people, who should be part of the core teams, were involved in the layoffs. This was something a bit different. Nah, it's entirely possible that senior people didn't make the cut for developing a core team for going forward, particularly if they're not adapting well to how the studio is changing. But I agree that it would only be part of the picture, given the multitude of factors we've seen come into play. What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. Still don't think it's worth bemoaning that the Old Guard is gone with the implication (or outright claim) that younger writers can't write quality stories with quality characters (and therefore BioWare is dead.) It's just. Not true lol.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 0:16:43 GMT
Kind of one aspect I didn't touch on but was tempted to...kind of forgot kind of hesitant to touch it with a ten foot pole.
However with his suggestion about labor and the game industry evolving like movies my first knee jerk reaction is to say 'oh god I hope not.' But kind of A. now that he says it that is how movies have been operating for decades now...teams, directors, actors, etc all tend to move around from project to project, studio to studio quite often...though sometimes you have an actor which has been known for a studio IE Tom Cruise for Paramount right now. And B. I suspect that this is where the industry has been moving for awhile. There seems to be a lot of shuffling around of personell from studio to studio. IE someone moves on and then is instantly picked up by someone else somewhere down the line. I'm still a bit hesitant on this subject because like everything in life its about balance. On the one hand you don't want a sense of 'tenure' and people getting encorached in their positions just because they are the old guard...that is a recipe for laziness and corruption even under the best of circumstances...but you also do want to have as people have said a 'core'. People with enough understanding of making game dev in the general sense and making BioWare games specifically that you can always train the next generation and adapt them to the work load.
The trouble then is a 'core team' also tends to be very vaguely defined in the first place. Like we all have our liens in the sand on this but for me for awhile its been pretty much Patrick Weekes and John Epler. They are 'core' for the DA experience since I like and know their work. But we have also lost a lot of veteran talent over this whole process to and you need more then just those two...but noting people are going to move on eventually. Then Mike Gamble over on the ME side.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 13, 2023 3:58:30 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. It's standard development practice to start small in preproduction and ramp up as development continues. Unless your studio is larger and working on multiple games at once, then you shift your developers from project to project. This way you won't have to lay people off because you ship one project then at the same time "ramp up" another. But otherwise starting small with a core team and ramping up is standard, and if Bioware are going back to one game at a time it will one hundred percent happen because it's standard practice. Not usually your writers who've been there since inception though. AskAGameDev is of the opinion that that was a cost cutting measure because they command more salary, which is pretty scummy. David Gaider is of the same opinion.
|
|
Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
6,651
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on Sept 13, 2023 6:38:12 GMT
The team size thing is practically a from the top down management failure. Keeping a team working effectively regardless of size is management's primary job, and they failed miserably at it. Way bigger studios than BioWare do exist and they somehow manage to do that.
Downsizing teams because management is too incompetent to handle them and then make the remainder of that team crunch to make up for the lost manpower would really be something else. Get competent managers instead?
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 6:44:53 GMT
The team size thing is practically a from the top down management failure. Keeping a team working effectively regardless of size is management's primary job, and they failed miserably at it. Way bigger studios than BioWare do exist and they somehow manage to do that. Downsizing teams because management is too incompetent to handle them and then make the remainder of that team crunch to make up for the lost manpower would really be something else. Get competent managers instead? one competent manager cannot manage a team of 10,000. |
|
Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
6,651
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on Sept 13, 2023 7:08:49 GMT
The team size thing is practically a from the top down management failure. Keeping a team working effectively regardless of size is management's primary job, and they failed miserably at it. Way bigger studios than BioWare do exist and they somehow manage to do that. Downsizing teams because management is too incompetent to handle them and then make the remainder of that team crunch to make up for the lost manpower would really be something else. Get competent managers instead? one competent manager cannot manage a team of 10,000. Of course not. But one competent manager at the top (hence "top down management failure") should know how many managers he needs to split the overall team into different sections, each with their own manager and so on. If he can't do that he's got no business being in that position. Then those section managers do the same thing, and it is their job to coordinate their respective teams with the others. If someone can't handle their team then the reasons for that need to be found and eliminated. If the team is truly too large to handle then get someone who can do that or add another guy to help with management. All of these are management jobs.
|
|
inherit
The homeostatic problem-solving structure
8860
0
Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
8,542
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
4,800
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
|
Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 13, 2023 7:32:47 GMT
"So for me, for BioWare, the problem wasn't Frostbite -- the problem was never Frostbite -- the problem was we went through the pain of adopting an engine three times when we should have done it once."
This is also what I've heard, and Darrah cemented it. Maybe we can put that crap to rest for good, or do the gamers not believe what developers say anymore?
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 7:40:00 GMT
"So for me, for BioWare, the problem wasn't Frostbite -- the problem was never Frostbite -- the problem was we went through the pain of adopting an engine three times when we should have done it once."This is also what I've heard, and Darrah cemented it. Maybe we can put that crap to rest for good, or do the gamers not believe what developers say anymore? gamers seem to never believe what devs say as a general rule. |
|
inherit
The homeostatic problem-solving structure
8860
0
Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
8,542
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
4,800
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
|
Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 13, 2023 7:48:02 GMT
Still don't think it's worth bemoaning that the Old Guard is gone with the implication (or outright claim) that younger writers can't write quality stories with quality characters (and therefore BioWare is dead.) It's just. Not true lol. Yeah, this too. But I guess we'll see some moaning still  Its never true. People change work places and its normal.
|
|
inherit
The homeostatic problem-solving structure
8860
0
Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
8,542
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
4,800
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
|
Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 13, 2023 7:49:06 GMT
"So for me, for BioWare, the problem wasn't Frostbite -- the problem was never Frostbite -- the problem was we went through the pain of adopting an engine three times when we should have done it once."This is also what I've heard, and Darrah cemented it. Maybe we can put that crap to rest for good, or do the gamers not believe what developers say anymore? gamers seem to never believe what devs say as a general rule.  yup, the armchair specialists seem to know the best... hahah
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 7:55:01 GMT
No because some of the senior people, who should be part of the core teams, were involved in the layoffs. This was something a bit different. Nah, it's entirely possible that senior people didn't make the cut for developing a core team for going forward, particularly if they're not adapting well to how the studio is changing. But I agree that it would only be part of the picture, given the multitude of factors we've seen come into play. What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. Still don't think it's worth bemoaning that the Old Guard is gone with the implication (or outright claim) that younger writers can't write quality stories with quality characters (and therefore BioWare is dead.) It's just. Not true lol. I know this is super old at this point but I must've missed the middle paragraph. But that is something that we're already seeing with Dreadwolf. Darrah has been brought on as a consultant. As was another writer I keep forgetting and maybe more. Of course the issue is if they move on to other companies but if they are free they could easily come in and offer any input. |
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 13, 2023 8:49:32 GMT
Nah, it's entirely possible that senior people didn't make the cut for developing a core team for going forward, particularly if they're not adapting well to how the studio is changing. But I agree that it would only be part of the picture, given the multitude of factors we've seen come into play. What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. Still don't think it's worth bemoaning that the Old Guard is gone with the implication (or outright claim) that younger writers can't write quality stories with quality characters (and therefore BioWare is dead.) It's just. Not true lol. I know this is super old at this point but I must've missed the middle paragraph. But that is something that we're already seeing with Dreadwolf. Darrah has been brought on as a consultant. As was another writer I keep forgetting and maybe more. Of course the issue is if they move on to other companies but if they are free they could easily come in and offer any input. Consultants cost more. Sometimes much more. Normal contracts work fine. It's inefficient to drag people back as consultants unless you really need a consultant. Though these senior people you've let go will likely have no problem attaining senior positions elsewhere. The aim isn't to rehire these people, as Hrungr quoted Gaider saying in the News thread - ""We laid off a bunch of our most expensive non-management staff. We'd replace them with cheap juniors immediately, but we can't and still call it a lay off, so instead we're redistributing their work to those already working crunch. Hooray for our commitment to quality!"
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 13, 2023 8:55:38 GMT
one competent manager cannot manage a team of 10,000. Of course not. But one competent manager at the top (hence "top down management failure") should know how many managers he needs to split the overall team into different sections, each with their own manager and so on. If he can't do that he's got no business being in that position. Then those section managers do the same thing, and it is their job to coordinate their respective teams with the others. If someone can't handle their team then the reasons for that need to be found and eliminated. If the team is truly too large to handle then get someone who can do that or add another guy to help with management. All of these are management jobs. I'm going to assume part of the problem was working across 3 separate studios, because otherwise it's kind of a joke. It's not just mismanagement, it'd be hilariously bad mismanagement. But I'm just going to assume coordinating projects across 3 studios was incredibly challenging or something.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,677
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2023 9:44:29 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Sept 13, 2023 9:52:22 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle. They're very lucky Mark was still available and created his own consulting firm. Most people will just land at another studio at a senior position. Normally if you shed talent other people just snap it up. And it's very hard for people who've never worked on anything Bioware to have enough knowledge of entire lore to come in and just build something in the short term. There's quite a few problems using consultants (and are usually working with finances or management). Contracts are still the normal way considering this is the industry's solution to having people in development at specific times (ramping up -> ramping down).
|
|
Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
6,651
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on Sept 13, 2023 10:36:44 GMT
"So for me, for BioWare, the problem wasn't Frostbite -- the problem was never Frostbite -- the problem was we went through the pain of adopting an engine three times when we should have done it once."This is also what I've heard, and Darrah cemented it. Maybe we can put that crap to rest for good, or do the gamers not believe what developers say anymore? I never understood the Unreal Engine cult. Unreal 3 had hideous texture pop in and it tied AI target updating in multiplayer to the host's framerate. Complete rookie BS... something you won't find in Frostbite. |
|
inherit
1033
0
Member is Online
31,248
colfoley
16,572
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 10:54:30 GMT
You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle. They're very lucky Mark was still available and created his own consulting firm. Most people will just land at another studio at a senior position. Normally if you shed talent other people just snap it up. And it's very hard for people who've never worked on anything Bioware to have enough knowledge of entire lore to come in and just build something in the short term. There's quite a few problems using consultants (and are usually working with finances or management). Contracts are still the normal way considering this is the industry's solution to having people in development at specific times (ramping up -> ramping down). Yeah lot of potential pit falls to the general idea that not sure how many people they can rope back into any future projects. However. If they can do anything and have anyone available what might happen is a few more short term solutions. Like bring back Kirby just to work on the games lore or story concept during pre pod or early production for a couple of months. Again stressing this might not happen in this specific case just presenting my theory on how it could work. Of course one of the big problems BioWare is running into now is the idea of apparent mission creep. Granted we don't know the exact timeline, ie if they were planning on releasing in Septermber (ish) and then hired Mark Darrah back and he was one of the ones like 'guys we still have issues to work out' as well as others on the dev team or we don't know if chatter on the dev team about a possible delay plus external factors (like what happened with Jedi Survivor) prompted them to have a likely delay first...and then hire Darrah to help do 'triage'. Ugh point almost got away from me but regardless we have the possibility of Darrah only being hired on for a shorter time span which has now balooned out into god knows when hence higher costs for the Consults. Hopefully future projects if BioWare does do this then they can manage this process better to. Which does bring to mind the metaphor I told my wife, rhetorical question. Is Darrah a back up QB coming into replace a starter in the midst of a blowout or is he an MLB starter closing out a tight game?
|
|
Sandetiger
N3
beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 378 Likes: 1,164
Member is Online
inherit
12424
0
Member is Online
1,164
Sandetiger
beez nuts
378
March 2023
sandetiger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Sandetiger on Sept 13, 2023 15:28:42 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle. Well and I believe the idea is to have that core gameplay loop developed before a bunch of contractors are brought in for a dev cycle, to theoretically streamline the process. I really, really don't know how well it would work, but it's definitely a business model that I think would require more protections; it seems even less stable to me than how the game industry is already structured, which is already pretty tenuous. Hence why I found it really interesting that Darrah was specifically speaking of "the labor movement" when talking about this all.
|
|
Sandetiger
N3
beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 378 Likes: 1,164
Member is Online
inherit
12424
0
Member is Online
1,164
Sandetiger
beez nuts
378
March 2023
sandetiger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Sandetiger on Sept 13, 2023 15:30:23 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle. Was that Ben Gelinas?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,677
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2023 8:12:47 GMT
That sounds familiar. All I remember is that there was a lot if discussion around which culture he had been brought in to work on, with hopes it was either Kal Sharok or the Fog Warriors on Seheron. People also seemed pretty excited about his contribution because they were familiar with his previous work, although I wasn't. I think it may have been during the Joplin period because people started wondering if his work would still have been included after the reboot (although there now appear to have been several) and then someone mentioned how he now had some sort of cloud hanging over him, so may be Bioware would ditch his work because of that. Of course, there is also the possibility they just didn't like his efforts, whether because it didn't fit well with the general game world or was simply not good enough. My point was that they had tried using an outsider with an established reputation to work on a specific piece of narrative during the early part of Dreadwolf, so there was a precedent for doing the same again in the future, assuming it wasn't a total failure. |
|
apollexander
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 350 Likes: 775
inherit
9079
0
775
apollexander
350
July 2017
apollexander
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by apollexander on Sept 15, 2023 9:14:50 GMT
What I thought was interesting was that he spoke about the business model of contracting people in once a core was developed, and I could potentially see a world where people like Mary Kirby and Lukas Kristjanson were asked to be brought on once a core gameplay loop was developed, to flesh the world out and build on the layers. Assuming they even WANTED to, which is another thing altogether. You will recall they did something like this originally with DA:D, although I'm not sure if this was before or after it switched from Joplin to Morrison. I can't remember the name of the guy but he was brought in to develop a specific section of the narrative and lore connected with a previously unexplored region/culture, that was never elaborated further as his contribution was subsequently dropped. I was never clear if this was because he had subsequently acquired some negative press or they simply no longer had use for his section. Now they have Mark Darrah back on the team as a consultant. In the short term it might appear more costly to do this than have someone on payroll, as independent contractors are usually paid more to compensate for the lack of employment benefits enjoyed by a permanent employee, but overall the studio may find it more cost effective to use people only when they need them for specific parts of the development cycle. I think you refer to Alexis Kennedy, who was accused and had lost reputation.
|
|
yup, the armchair specialists seem to know the best... hahah 
