The link between Titans, lyrium and sources of magic

The idea of the planet's lifeforce being a source of magic isn't original. Final Fantasy VII already had its own Gaia theory, in which the planet's Lifestream was being drained by big companies like Shinra, and the Lifestream's extraction was causing the planet's accelerated death. Also, characters could use magic by using Materia, magic stones made of the Lifestream. And the lifestream was exactly as its name implies: a stream of life, made of the souls of those who died. Their life energy returned to the planet upon death, and once you drowned in the Lifestream, you could hear their VOICES, just as you can hear voices when getting close to lyrium.

So one can say lyrium stones are crystallized lyrium, much as Materia is crystallized Lifestream.

There may be something to this. Remember the rock wraiths in DA2, which we I seem to recall are said to be dwarven souls that could not return to the Stone? The lyrium guardian we battle in Descent reminded me of them. In fact, if you recall, traditionally when a dwarf dies they bury them in stone crypts or under rocks and believe their spirit returns to the Stone, unless the Stone has rejected them. They see themselves a children of the Stone and Solas also calls Varric "Child of Stone". In the other ancient elven writings they call the Titans the Pillars of the Earth. Perhaps I was wrong in stating that the writers didn't link lyrium to them because, as you point out, the dwarves always seemed to have some sort of connection to lyrium and so it would make sense this is because it was part of the Stone. The main thing does seem to be, though, that originally they weren't developed by the writers as having blood. Now, of course, we have to assume that the crystalised lyrium commonly mined by the dwarves is simply dried blood.

I am somewhat puzzled by the whole compulsion thing with red lyrium. It is true that lyrium has a song to it that calls to dwarves and thus I suppose it would follow that red lyrium would do the same but because it is infected the song is somehow warped and that is what sent Bartrand insane. Yet it also had that affect on Meredith, so it also works on non dwarves. I also never understood how the idol somehow gave enhanced magical ability to a non mage. Was that a result of the process used in creating the idol? That would link it back to the Evanuris and whatever Mythal did to the dwarves that originally served the Titan she killed (or subdued). The dwarves are said not to dream, in other words are not connected to the Fade in the same way as other humanoids. This is likely because of their connection to the Stone. However, that old elven rhyme about the dwarves said "Mythal gives you dreams". So, did Mythal detect the connection between the dwarves to the Stone and so did something to them to break it? Was that the origin of red lyrium, an altering of lyrium to break the dwarves' connection to the Titans? It would explain Bartrand's insanity. Even though surface dwarves are said to lose their Stone sense, that probably just means it weakens their connection to the Titans but it is still there faintly in their sub-conscious. How does this connect with the song of the Old Gods? All darkspawn and Grey Wardens can hear this and whilst the Architect breaking the connection allows some darkspawn free will, it sends others like the Mother insane. I have previously speculated that the Old God dragons were already infected with the Blight before the darkspawn break through and all they are doing is awakening them from slumber and freeing them from their prisons. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me that the Grey Wardens can also hear them if they are not blighted before the darkspawn reach them or why they would attract the darkspawn in the first place. If they are not previously infected then is it the taint in the darkspawn that allows the Old God to locate them and deliberately call them to their location, rather than passively being some sort of beacon?

As ever this links back to the ancient elves. Those in uthenera were said to be able to contact their allies across Thedas, presumably via the Fade by using their dreams, possibly their vallaslin allowed them to distinguish between their allies and their enemies. The Old Gods seem to be doing something similar from their slumber. Originally they detected their allies through their use of blood magic. Then once infected with the "Darkness", they switched to calling them through the taint, which attracted the darkspawn as well. I had another theory that it was actually their respective high priest that was required to break the seal on their prison. May be it rendered them comatose after doing to, which is why Corypheus wasn't first seen by the Wardens until after the death of Dumat. He also seemed confused and unaware that Dumat was dead until after occupying the body of a Grey Warden. Is that what made him more lucid? By contrast, the Architect not remembering his origins meant that he was unaware of his connection with Urthemiel, although he still seems to have gone missing during the 5th Blight, only reappearing after Urthemiel was either killed or transferred to Kieran.

Why does lyrium grant connection to the Fade? Is the Fade connected to the Titans? Why then are the dwarves not connected? Why did the Breach disturb the Titan? I find red lyrium easier to understand in this respect. It connects the user to some other source of magical power, which is where the Arch-demon derives its alternative source of power. Solas also suggested that the reason for the amount of red lyrium at the site of the Conclave was due to the corruption of the lyrium there with magic. So, I think they were already hinting at this alternative source of magic there. For want of a better label, I would call this the Void.

Could the Void be the interior of a corrupted Titan? That would explain why Andruil was able to hunt there and why she became insane through spending too long within. Was the reason Mythal was able to counteract its effects and absorb her memory of it due to the fact that she had been responsible for creating it in the first place?

That is how Solas described it but it is interesting he should describe their abilities that way. In some ways it acts on the non-mage Templars in the opposite way to mages. With mages it enhances their connection to the Fade, so by Solas' description it is weakening reality or perhaps making them more spiritual? By contrast, with the Templars, could the Templars be becoming closer to the Titans and thus more earthy? There does seem a theme in the ancient elven writing of the elves being closer to the "brethren of the air", in other words the Fade, and in opposition to the Earth. In the Descent the Titan was disturbed by the Breach, presumably because it allowed the denizens of the Air to come through and invade the Earth. I wonder if it was a similar case in ancient times and the earthquakes that toppled the elven cities on the surface of Thedas were as a result of the influx of what had previously been spirits of the Fade disturbing its equilibrium. It is interesting how punching a large hole in the Veil seems to weaken gravity. I wonder if, when there was no Veil, the elven structures were originally floating but they used magic to bring them down to earth and that is when the Titan got stirred up.

It depends on whether the taint is directly connected to blood or separate from it. Otherwise, there are 3 sources of magic. I am inclined to believe the latter because of Solas' conversation with Vivienne. She points to the fact that Corypheus seems to be using 3 sources of magic at once, his own (blood magic?), elven (orb/Fade magic) and the Blight. Actually, I don't count the orb since that merely focused magical energy and its nature depended on the source. Solas then says that one source is poisoned. In their subsequent conversation she questions him about his objection to using Blight magic but not Blood magic and he responds that Blood magic, properly used, is no different to Fade magic, but Blight magic is wholly corrupt and cannot be used safely.

This is why I think that it perhaps divides into Fade magic, Blood magic (whatever creature it comes from) and Blight magic, which is probably a corrupted form of Blood magic, with the creature using it drawing on either their own corrupted blood to power it or an external blighted source, like the idol. There would definitely seem to be some sort of connection between blood magic and blight magic though, which is why I thought the latter is probably connected with some blighted Titan.

Death is supposed to weaken the veil so i suppose blood magic doing it might just be the result of sacrificing peoples lives rather then the magic itself?

Though if it does weaken the veil directly - the veil is not the fade, perhaps blood magic could be weakening solas' barrier and still interfere with projecting your mind into the fade? But not so much that you can't use it's power to brute force your way in ala jowan at Redcliffe - though now i think about it, Jowan's blood magic ritual can only send someone else into the fade he can't go himself, so his connection to the fade might well be muddled but the person whose actually going there isn't using the blood magic so could be fine. And Irving and the other circle mages lyrium ritual both at redcliffe and during the joining is once again sending someone other then the caster/s to the fade.

So perhaps blood and lyrium really do both enforce the physical and mess with your ability to access the fade and that's why you have to use their power to send someone else instead of going yourself?

I hope to see spirit warriors too.

Normally it is possible to get a rough translation from Latin, as that is the language Tevene is based on, but so far the best I can come up with on-line for the whole word is "Repeat" and I have mislaid my own old Latin/English dictionary. However, "Patae" results in "Find" and "Perre" in "to the family", which sort of links to "father". I wonder if the writer of the comic Mage Killer just made up a word that sounded about right rather than actually trying to come up with something broadly matching the role of the warrior. After all, a better word would have been, for example, Magiapatae, meaning "Magic Finder", whilst Mage Killer should translate to something like "Magus Occisor". So, perhaps Perrepatae means something else.

I wonder also if Marius had some sort of aura about him that only a mage can detect. Otherwise it seems hard to understand how Dorian knew he was a Perrepatae just by looking at him. Also, Marius says that the Magister "made" him, as though there was something more involved than just training. Since I'm only getting these details from what I can find from panels of the comic on-line, not from the comic itself, perhaps there is more of an explanation there. However, it could be hinting at a Spirit Warrior as the underlying skill that "made" him what he is.

I wouldn't say that Marius was ignorant of the source of his abilities, just that the writer never thought to explain them. The fact that Marius refers to being "made" by the Magister does suggest something was done, with or without his consent, that made him a Perrepatae. It could just refer to a harsh training regime but since it specifically seems to have been done to make him more effective at killing mages, you would think that would involve some specific powers to either attack or counteract magic. We know they do not have Templars or Seekers like the southern ones in Tevinter when it comes to Chantry specific roles but that doesn't mean there might not be individuals who have been trained to have abilities in both physical and magical protection such as are enjoyed by the Spirit Warrior. They can also deal spiritual damage to their enemies. Since it would require attracting a spirit and then getting their co-operation, it does seem as though a mage might be required on behalf of the warrior in some sort of ritual in order to make them into the Spirit Warrior, particularly if it wasn't actually their desire to become one. Given that Tevinter does not have the same objection to using spirits as the southern Templars do (ironic when you consider the source of Seeker powers), it does seem likely that Spirit Warriors might be more common there.

I also thought Dorian naming him a Perrepatae was odd when he had only just met him, although I suppose he could have been introduced as a Mage Killer and then Dorian simply gave him the title by which he would have been known in Tevinter. Nevertheless, that does suggest a specific class of warrior in Tevinter that is effectively a sort of mage assassin. In Marius' case he was the property of a Magister who was presumably training him for his own use but they could also be found in specific roles working for the Archon or the Magisterium. However, since Tevinter is the most powerful magical nation in Thedas, I would imagine they would be used more internally to take out political enemies rather than against external threats. Of course, this could well change if there is an increase in magical threats due to Solas' activities (or those of the Executors). This is why I am hopeful that a Spirit Warrior could feature among our companions because they would have just the sort of abilities that would be useful against him and his followers or against any other weird magical creatures that start to appear.

Of course, being Tevinter it could be their version of the Spirit Warrior involves the use of demons rather than benign spirits but I think that unlikely as there would likely be too much risk of wholesale possession.  It would be interesting which sort of spirit is commonly used.  I would imagine it would likely be a spirit of Valor.     However, when it comes to DA:D and perhaps our own hero, I wonder if it might finally involve a Hope spirit, which we have previously been told are the rarest but most powerful of spirits.    I can imagine we are going to need hope when it comes to trying to save the world and it might even involve a spirit that has constantly watched over the activities of our previous heroes in the series as they were involved in giving hope to others in their stories.      I usually play either mages or rogues but I would definitely consider being a warrior if Spirit Warrior was one of the options for their specialism.    

Just a quick correction; the original post was a March 2022 interview, but the second set of excerpts (which this topic was extracted from) came from the Sept 2023 live stream :-)

A mixed bag of different takes on some statements already made


This is not entirely true, at least not with respect to Inquisition. The Codex Responsible Blood Magic found in the Still Ruins is quite clear on what a Magister of the Imperium thought of Blood Magic in the Storm Age

It seems its not so much that all Blood Magic requires a pact with a demon, but that the repeated and/or intense use of such attracts them like bloody meat draws flies. It may be more risky when you use the blood of others as it seems Corypheus was cutting himself before he resorted to using the blood of slaves from the story by his chief slave in the Nightmare's Realm. I don't think even pre-Blight Cory was much of a gent to do unto himself first unless there was some other risk involved. Solas' lack of concern/disdain probably traces back to either his lack of need to use Blood Magic or his lack of need for protection since he's already got the PrideWolf spirit on board, but that's a talk for another time.

As for power sources, there's another interesting note in the Still Ruins that I'm still not 100% how to decipher. It's the first part of the Tevinter Magister performing the experiment that creates the Fade Rift (centuries before the Breach) which is stalled in time by some sort of redirection of its energy (that also seems to take blood as evidenced by the globe of blood around the Tempest Staff that seems to be the key).

Then later...

So it seems that typical mages draw power from the Fade indirectly as part of their talent. This talent is probably also what lets them enter the Fade while awake and with agency (from Origins). Using lyrium, then, might be a weaker form of this 'channel' that the magister keeps referring to as it exists in both the Waking World and the Fade. The Blood Magic, though, is a separate power source implied in the second note. Blood Magic starts the process of opening the rift to the Fade, then 'the channel' holds and maintains it. Then, profit! (Or demons. Lots of folks confuse profit and demons. Happens all the time ). Now then, whether the pure number of physical demons that popped out of that Rift were because of the use of Blood Magic or because of the Rift itself, I don't think we have enough evidence to peg it one way or the other. No clues on how Blood Magic is different, but I will work on that.


Actually, there were hints back to Origins that Lyrium was maybe not just another rock but was more naturally a liquid. I've already mentioned the Chantry theory that lyrium was 'water of the Fade'. Further, the 'refined' version was always portrayed as a liquid. See the description of the various lyrium potions, the depiction of the Harrowing in the Mage Origin, the use of the same, and exact basin in the Fade ritual in Redcliffe.



I'm afraid don't see a Plot Hole. It's just kind of like Dagna says about the Anchor (and later the spirit who takes the guise of Divine Justinia) : it can be used to open or close, bind or loose, do many things. If lyrium is just a channel to the power of the Fade, its possible southern templars use it to 'jam' the normal communications between mages and the Fade they use to create their magical effects, much like radio jamming is just braodcasting noise across frequencies used by the target. That still leaves your interesting question, if the elves didn't have to worry about a Veil, why mine lyrium to overcome that. I don't have any answers for that.


One last thing that doesn't have anything to do with anything mentioned before but a tangential thought I had that got a little more of a goose from some research I was doing for this. What is the relationship between demons, the Blight, and Red Lyrium? What got me thinking about this was the whole Imshael thing in Inquisition. They never really got deep into it, but it was obvious Imshael had a way with Red Lyrium that no other being exhibited. The Red Templars were thoroughly convinced that it could regulate its growth, even inside their bodies even to the point it dangled removing Red Lyrium from one of the templars. It could have been lying, of course, but there's no debating the terrifying growth potential of Red Lyrium in Emprise where the Elder Demon resided. Then there's this quote from the spirit Justinia

That's just wild. The Blight presence allowing him to affect Wardens (and we could assume, darkspawn just like The Architect does) isn't really a big stretch, but how would Blight equal commanding demons? Then there's this chilling ditty from The Fade Whispers Written in Red Lyrium

This doesn't really seem to fit the Darkspawn (except maybe the polluted line) but it could be some group of demons much like Imshael. I'll have to work on this more but I'll be glad to hear some reinforcement or shootdown of it. Thanks for listening.

P.S. Still waiting for someone to stick their neck out on how dragons fit into all this.

Been sitting on this for awhile and well when I get really excited to post something and then real life intercedes to stop it...well you then forget most of your points! But catcher reminded me of some of it.

And I do agree with you on the whole lyrium thing in relation to being a strength and a weakening. I related it to Alchol in my mind, at least how I was taught on the distinction way, way back. The teacher who relayed it brought up the point that at first glance alchol would seem to be a stiumulant, given how it awakens you and makes you feel more energetic. But it really lowers your inhibitions and other things hence its actually a depressant. Maybe an awkward tale but I hope it demonstrates my point...as well as my thoughts that the 'reinforcing of reality' sort of rubs up against the fade/ veil and thus actually weakens the veil in the process.

From there I am leaning more towards Lyrium and Fade magic being two different, though perhaps somewhat interchangeable, sources of magic. Its not perfect, after all Lyrium can appear in the Fade which may not fit exactly, but it still works. But just think that Lyrium/ Blood magic is magic of this world which stood in opposition to what the Evanuris wanted to do. Now why the Evanuris wanted access to Lyrium...who can be one hundred percent sure...perhaps it was just for power...perhaps it was a means of getting even further into the Fade, because even if the Veil was down and thus transport was easier Tresspasser's codex entries did suggest that the Evanuris still had to go into the deep parts of the Fade or something of that effect...if I'm remembering correctly. Anyways the specifics may not be important, the point is think it became a struggle between Lyrium/ Reality/ Earth/ Blood vs the Evanuris/ Elves/ Fade/ Sky magic.

As far as what could corrupt a Titan my theory is that a Titan corrupted itself, not intentionally mind you but out of rage and despair at seing what happened to its own people.

Considering that Mythal has "struck down" one or more Titans, my theory is that the titan isn't so much corrupted as it is dead and decomposing - the blight's sickening of lyrium and other living plants and animals being the magical rock person equivalent of the sickness that comes from a water supply being contaminated by putrefying corpses. In which water is replaced with The Stone/Earth.

But my theories get fussy with how this would affect blight magic as the above would imply that blight magic is powered by the death/sacrifice of that titan/s rather than the "void" location referred to in that Andruil codex, unless becoming connected to the dead Titan somehow allows the blighted to channel power directly from the depths of the earth and that's where the void is? Hmmm...