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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 22, 2020 22:53:14 GMT
I'm looking forward to S7, the finale of a great Star Wars series The Clone Wars.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 22:56:28 GMT
Posted the trailer earlier. I’m excited!
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 22, 2020 23:00:42 GMT
Well... I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later. What I have difficulty with is that Luke would, rather than attempting to fix this mess, cut himself off from the force, gave up, and became a hermit. Obi-Wan and Yoda at least tried to stop Vader and Sidious before going into hiding, and decided to bide their time only after failure. For Luke, it seemed like what happened with Kylo at the training academy was one last event that made him decide to leave. I understand that kind of decision. Dunno what happened to him prior to that, but I'm sure helping build the New Republic for 20 years wasn't all sunshine and roses. I can appreciate that. But the years of failings and struggles wearing him to that point aren’t mentioned or alluded to, and I don’t think it’s necessarily reasonable for the film to simply expect the viewer to accept that he has been worn down to that point. I have to put it down as a failing of the film. The funny thing is that I think Rey and Luke’s story is the best part of TLJ, but it’s a part that really only works if you accept the film purely on its own merits and try to forget Luke Skywalker as you knew him in the OT. At least for me.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 22, 2020 23:03:49 GMT
He crept into his room, took out his lightsaber, turned it on and stood next to sleeping Ben Solo for about 7 seconds. It's way more than a split second. Waaaaay more. Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done. Exactly. And its an interesting testement to his character how much of a reaction he had to even that small mistake. Almost like he'd never failed before... As for Clone Wars I am a bit mixed on it. Gonna try and watch it...eventually...sense I've watched the first six seasons and am rewatching the first six seasons...but we already know how a lot of this is going to end. Though on the flip side the implication that I'm getting that the entire season could be set on Mandalore is an interesting one.
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Post by Evil on Jan 22, 2020 23:25:55 GMT
He crept into his room, took out his lightsaber, turned it on and stood next to sleeping Ben Solo for about 7 seconds. It's way more than a split second. Waaaaay more. Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done. In his defence, the scene is amateurishly filmed and written judging by the clips I've been shown, its unsurprising that such a detail would be missed by virtually everybody who saw it. A much better way of depicting the scene would have been for Luke to have the vision while meditating with his lightsabre on his lap, Ben tries to wake him when he sees that its not going well, Luke panics when woken and goes for his weapon. That'd have removed the appearance of it being premeditated attempted murder and been a quicker and better way of setting that moment up.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jan 22, 2020 23:30:11 GMT
He crept into his room, took out his lightsaber, turned it on and stood next to sleeping Ben Solo for about 7 seconds. It's way more than a split second. Waaaaay more. Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done. Ah yes, he "sensed darkness in him". I admit I may have forgotten that part. I guess everything that happened later is much more out of character for Luke that this particular moment.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 22, 2020 23:48:23 GMT
Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done. In his defence, the scene is amateurishly filmed and written judging by the clips I've been shown, its unsurprising that such a detail would be missed by virtually everybody who saw it. A much better way of depicting the scene would have been for Luke to have the vision while meditating with his lightsabre on his lap, Ben tries to wake him when he sees that its not going well, Luke panics when woken and goes for his weapon. That'd have removed the appearance of it being premeditated attempted murder and been a quicker and better way of setting that moment up. Well, the confusion might come from this particular scene appearing 3 times with significant differences. The first version is Luke’s initial telling where he omits drawing his lightsaber altogether. The second is Ben’s, which has Luke standing over him lightsaber drawn looking like a maniac. The last, what I described and the ostensible true version, is what Luke reveals when confronted with Ben’s retelling.
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Post by Evil on Jan 23, 2020 0:01:47 GMT
In his defence, the scene is amateurishly filmed and written judging by the clips I've been shown, its unsurprising that such a detail would be missed by virtually everybody who saw it. A much better way of depicting the scene would have been for Luke to have the vision while meditating with his lightsabre on his lap, Ben tries to wake him when he sees that its not going well, Luke panics when woken and goes for his weapon. That'd have removed the appearance of it being premeditated attempted murder and been a quicker and better way of setting that moment up. Well, the confusion might come from this particular scene appearing 3 times with significant differences. The first version is Luke’s initial telling where he omits drawing his lightsaber altogether. The second is Ben’s, which has Luke standing over him lightsaber drawn looking like a maniac. The last, what I described and the ostensible true version, is what Luke reveals when confronted with Ben’s retelling. Ah, like a failed attempt at something like the murder scene in "Rashomon" and its spiritual successor in "The Usual Suspects"? Sounds like Ruin Johnson's hubris wrote a cheque his ass couldn't cash by trying a story mechanism that was way out of his league, his film length limitations, and audience's patience. Fits with Hanlons Razor. Assuming the film was a deliberate character assassination upon Luke doesn't make much sense if it can be explained by simple incompetence on Johnsons part.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 0:16:09 GMT
Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done. Exactly. And its an interesting testement to his character how much of a reaction he had to even that small mistake. Almost like he'd never failed before...Luke's right hand says differently. AS for "panicking" This guy was in the same room as Darth Vader the the f*cking Emperor bending all their Dark Side will towards getting him to act aggressively. How does a nightmare from his own unsuspecting nephew even compare?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 0:16:47 GMT
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 23, 2020 0:42:11 GMT
Well blame Lucas for being a greedy little shit. Fans crying over what is done with SW. Lucas crying over what has happened to his creation. Well Mr. Lucas you shouldn't have sold your prized creation. If I had a creation like the Star Wars universe, I would never sell it for any amount of money. That would be like selling your children. It would stay with me until the day I die.
Now Disney spent X billions of dollars on this, you're damn right they're going to get their money back and then some. I don't like them taking a shit on the EU, specially the Old Republic and Kotor era and movie number 8 is not one I really care for, but there's nothing I can do about it, or anyone else. You as "fans" can either read/watch what comes out or you don't. Doubt the Disney exes will be losing any sleep over it either way.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2020 0:59:39 GMT
Exactly. And its an interesting testement to his character how much of a reaction he had to even that small mistake. Almost like he'd never failed before...Luke's right hand says differently. AS for "panicking" This guy was in the same room as Darth Vader the the f*cking Emperor bending all their Dark Side will towards getting him to act aggressively. How does a nightmare from his own unsuspecting nephew even compare? I thought Luke's explanation of his behavior was straight forward and plausible enough.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 23, 2020 1:18:24 GMT
I can understand why the producers didn't want to film the existing EU stories, but don't know why they didn't simply use that as a history of the characters for the new sequels. That woulda been fine. In fact, a lost grand daughter and ressurgent Palpatine might have made some more sense. I agree but there's the legal minefield of royalty fees for characters, and stories that weren't wholly owned or created by Lucas, and i doubt King Mickey would chance that.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 1:20:09 GMT
Exactly. And its an interesting testement to his character how much of a reaction he had to even that small mistake. Almost like he'd never failed before...Luke's right hand says differently. AS for "panicking" This guy was in the same room as Darth Vader the the f*cking Emperor bending all their Dark Side will towards getting him to act aggressively. How does a nightmare from his own unsuspecting nephew even compare? we've probably been through this, but on the off chance we haven't or I haven't made myself clear...rewatch the scene: The dialogue makes it clear what happened. Ben wasn't having a bad dream or a nightmare, that wasn't what Luke was reacting to. Luke looked into Ben's future and saw death, pain, and the end of everything he had built. This was no bad dream, this was the future. Sure maybe Luke shouldn't have reacted that way and kept in mind 'always in motion the future is'...but we heard the sound effects playing in the background and it seems it was a pretty accurate telling of what Ben would go onto do...and I can't blame Luke for having an instant split second reaction, which he immedietly changed his mind on and came to his senses. As for not panicking with the Emperor and Vader the two situations are entirely different. Luke sensed conflict and the light within Vader so he knew there was a likeliehood he'd come around...he sensed no such conflict in Ben. I mean just imagine being the uncle of Hitler, you have some power to see the future. So you go into his room because he has been acting a little...odd...lately. You use your power and see all the death and destrcuction he'd bring, setting Europe in flames, the death camps... now in the moment you might not be blamed for not killing him...after all you are his relative...but given what we knew happened I don't think history would look unkindly on you had you killed him right then and there.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 2:42:59 GMT
Luke's right hand says differently. AS for "panicking" This guy was in the same room as Darth Vader the the f*cking Emperor bending all their Dark Side will towards getting him to act aggressively. How does a nightmare from his own unsuspecting nephew even compare? we've probably been through this, but on the off chance we haven't or I haven't made myself clear...rewatch the scene: The dialogue makes it clear what happened. Ben wasn't having a bad dream or a nightmare, that wasn't what Luke was reacting to. Luke looked into Ben's future and saw death, pain, and the end of everything he had built. This was no bad dream, this was the future. Sure maybe Luke shouldn't have reacted that way and kept in mind 'always in motion the future is'...but we heard the sound effects playing in the background and it seems it was a pretty accurate telling of what Ben would go onto do...and I can't blame Luke for having an instant split second reaction, which he immedietly changed his mind on and came to his senses. Oh, well if the sound effects says so... Umm, there was ALWAYS conflict in Ben. It's kinda his thing As for the Baby Hitler analogy, dude Luke TURNED DARK F*CKING VADER back to the Light!!! Yo uknow, the guy who butchered CHILDREN with that fancy lightsaber Ben and Rey were fighting over? Who helped blow up a planet? Been there. Done that.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 2:46:04 GMT
Well blame Lucas for being a greedy little shit. Fans crying over what is done with SW. Lucas crying over what has happened to his creation. Well Mr. Lucas you shouldn't have sold your prized creation. If I had a creation like the Star Wars universe, I would never sell it for any amount of money. That would be like selling your children. It would stay with me until the day I die. Now Disney spent X billions of dollars on this, you're damn right they're going to get their money back and then some. I don't like them taking a shit on the EU, specially the Old Republic and Kotor era and movie number 8 is not one I really care for, but there's nothing I can do about it, or anyone else. You as "fans" can either read/watch what comes out or you don't. Doubt the Disney exes will be losing any sleep over it either way. <----Has been listening to the Heir to the Empire trilogy on his walks rather than give Disney onw more dime watching Rise of Palpatine.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 23, 2020 2:49:26 GMT
Luke's right hand says differently. AS for "panicking" This guy was in the same room as Darth Vader the the f*cking Emperor bending all their Dark Side will towards getting him to act aggressively. How does a nightmare from his own unsuspecting nephew even compare? we've probably been through this, but on the off chance we haven't or I haven't made myself clear...rewatch the scene: The dialogue makes it clear what happened. Ben wasn't having a bad dream or a nightmare, that wasn't what Luke was reacting to. Luke looked into Ben's future and saw death, pain, and the end of everything he had built. This was no bad dream, this was the future. Sure maybe Luke shouldn't have reacted that way and kept in mind 'always in motion the future is'...but we heard the sound effects playing in the background and it seems it was a pretty accurate telling of what Ben would go onto do...and I can't blame Luke for having an instant split second reaction, which he immedietly changed his mind on and came to his senses. As for not panicking with the Emperor and Vader the two situations are entirely different. Luke sensed conflict and the light within Vader so he knew there was a likeliehood he'd come around...he sensed no such conflict in Ben. To add to this, Luke did have a similar reaction in the throne room with Vader and the Emperor. Luke managed to keep himself true to the Jedi way, until Vader threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side. At that moment on instinct Luke snapped, igniting his lightsaber and going into a frenzy only snapping out of it when he heard the Emperor and saw Vader’s severed hand relating to his own. Luke’s weakness has always been his devotion to his family, and nobody knew that more than the Emperor whom we now know was Snoke who was manipulating the events of Ben’s fall just like he did Anakin’s so what better way for him to turn Luke and Ben against each other?
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2020 3:14:21 GMT
... As for the Baby Hitler analogy, dude Luke TURNED DARK F*CKING VADER back to the Light!!! Yo uknow, the guy who butchered CHILDREN with that fancy lightsaber Ben and Rey were fighting over? Who helped blow up a planet? Been there. Done that. What does that even mean? Luke went into that encounter on the Death Star knowing he was going up against evil - he didn't know what he was going to encounter when he looked into Ben. Sensing darkness doesn't prepare someone for confronting Hitler/Vader. You're practically proving Luke's own point from TLJ - that because he was Luke Skywalker who did this thing with the Empire, people thought of him as some sort of superhuman that could do no wrong.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 4:45:00 GMT
... As for the Baby Hitler analogy, dude Luke TURNED DARK F*CKING VADER back to the Light!!! Yo uknow, the guy who butchered CHILDREN with that fancy lightsaber Ben and Rey were fighting over? Who helped blow up a planet? Been there. Done that. What does that even mean? Luke went into that encounter on the Death Star knowing he was going up against evil - he didn't know what he was going to encounter when he looked into Ben. Sensing darkness doesn't prepare someone for confronting Hitler/Vader. He's already confronted two Hitlers! AND he knows firsthand that the future isn't set! Baby Hitler doesn't have to become Baby Hitler, always in motion is the future! False. If anything, overconfidence that he could turn Ben back to the Light Side like he did Vader should have been his failing. Luke is idealistic, always rushing off to help people. Luke is RECKLESS. Luke fails spectacularly. Jake doesn't even try.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 4:48:51 GMT
we've probably been through this, but on the off chance we haven't or I haven't made myself clear...rewatch the scene: The dialogue makes it clear what happened. Ben wasn't having a bad dream or a nightmare, that wasn't what Luke was reacting to. Luke looked into Ben's future and saw death, pain, and the end of everything he had built. This was no bad dream, this was the future. Sure maybe Luke shouldn't have reacted that way and kept in mind 'always in motion the future is'...but we heard the sound effects playing in the background and it seems it was a pretty accurate telling of what Ben would go onto do...and I can't blame Luke for having an instant split second reaction, which he immedietly changed his mind on and came to his senses. As for not panicking with the Emperor and Vader the two situations are entirely different. Luke sensed conflict and the light within Vader so he knew there was a likeliehood he'd come around...he sensed no such conflict in Ben. To add to this, Luke did have a similar reaction in the throne room with Vader and the Emperor. Luke managed to keep himself true to the Jedi way, until Vader threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side. At that moment on instinct Luke snapped, igniting his lightsaber and going into a frenzy only snapping out of it when he heard the Emperor and saw Vader’s severed hand relating to his own. Luke’s weakness has always been his devotion to his family, and nobody knew that more than the Emperor whom we now know was Snoke who was manipulating the events of Ben’s fall just like he did Anakin’s so what better way for him to turn Luke and Ben against each other? Again with TWO SITH LORDS bending their will to this effect, AND while being taunted that the Rebellion was in the process of being annihilated, his friends being killed. In real time, not some vision of a possible future. And the frenzy only came after Vader directly threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side. Not in some vision of a possible future. A direct, present day threat form a guy who already killed a planet.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2020 6:29:17 GMT
What does that even mean? Luke went into that encounter on the Death Star knowing he was going up against evil - he didn't know what he was going to encounter when he looked into Ben. Sensing darkness doesn't prepare someone for confronting Hitler/Vader. He's already confronted two Hitlers! AND he knows firsthand that the future isn't set! Baby Hitler doesn't have to become Baby Hitler, always in motion is the future! ...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Oh it wouldn't have taken him a few moments? See previous statement about people thinking Luke was superhuman because of what happened with the Empire. False. If anything, overconfidence that he could turn Ben back to the Light Side like he did Vader should have been his failing. Luke is idealistic, always rushing off to help people. Luke is RECKLESS. Luke fails spectacularly. Jake doesn't even try. That is nonsense. The idea that Luke MUST still be idealistic and reckless 30 years after Return of the Jedi is absurd - possible sure, but in no way a rule that writers have to follow. Some people can't be redeemed - like Emperor Palpatine. Kylo was one of those people in The Last Jedi, which was fine.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 6:57:30 GMT
He's already confronted two Hitlers! AND he knows firsthand that the future isn't set! Baby Hitler doesn't have to become Baby Hitler, always in motion is the future! ...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Oh it wouldn't have taken him a few moments? See previous statement about people thinking Luke was superhuman because of what happened with the Empire. False. If anything, overconfidence that he could turn Ben back to the Light Side like he did Vader should have been his failing. Luke is idealistic, always rushing off to help people. Luke is RECKLESS. Luke fails spectacularly. Jake doesn't even try. That is nonsense. The idea that Luke MUST still be idealistic and reckless 30 years after Return of the Jedi is absurd - possible sure, but in no way a rule that writers have to follow. Some people can't be redeemed - like Emperor Palpatine. Kylo was one of those people in The Last Jedi, which was fine. Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed rewatching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeamable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 23, 2020 7:07:18 GMT
The whole Luke deconstruction thing in TLJ was complete nonsense. Luke basically had to unlearn everything he learned in the OT just so that his actions against Ben made sense. Along with other decisions made It was obvious that Rian derailed an entire trilogy and JJ helped with TROS.
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Obadiah
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2020 13:49:01 GMT
...and in the few moments it took for him to realize that, he lost Kylo. Oh it wouldn't have taken him a few moments? See previous statement about people thinking Luke was superhuman because of what happened with the Empire. That is nonsense. The idea that Luke MUST still be idealistic and reckless 30 years after Return of the Jedi is absurd - possible sure, but in no way a rule that writers have to follow. Some people can't be redeemed - like Emperor Palpatine. Kylo was one of those people in The Last Jedi, which was fine. Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed rewatching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeamable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. Well... look... "some chance" is a broad statement that leaves a lot of leeway when describing just how much of a chance there really is - I'm guessing there was, like, 0.0000008675309% chance, but that's just me. I'm pretty sure that Luke's "no one is ever really gone" line meant that people live on in our hearts, even after they are "gone", not that Kylo could be redeemed after he resolved his internal conflicts and became the Supreme Leader. Kylo's character arc from TLJ into RoS is... problematic.
Also, there appears to be an official explanation of how Palpatine was resurrected. Why wasn't the Sith Eternal ( starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Eternal ) in the movie? Makes their destruction at the end of RoS seem more deserving. This was probably already posted, but...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 18:28:14 GMT
Its actually interesting that one of the things I noticed rewatching TLJ and the movies this weekend is I think at the end of the movie Luke did think Kylo was redeamable. Leia says something to the effect of 'I know my son is gone' and Luke says 'no one is ever really gone'...which seemed like a really odd line in hindsight but I realized, again since we now have the ENTIRE trilogy to look back on that Luke realized that there was still some chance for Ben's redemption...just that he wasn't going to be the one to do it given his apprentice's feelings of rage and bitterness towards him. Well... look... "some chance" is a broad statement that leaves a lot of leeway when describing just how much of a chance there really is - I'm guessing there was, like, 0.0000008675309% chance, but that's just me. I'm pretty sure that Luke's "no one is ever really gone" line meant that people live on in our hearts, even after they are "gone", not that Kylo could be redeemed after he resolved his internal conflicts and became the Supreme Leader. Kylo's character arc from TLJ into RoS is... problematic.
Also, there appears to be an official explanation of how Palpatine was resurrected. Why wasn't the Sith Eternal ( starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Eternal ) in the movie? Makes their destruction at the end of RoS seem more deserving. This was probably already posted, but...
oh no you are probably right, but the line takes on new meaning thanks to TROS.
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