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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 14, 2020 6:54:07 GMT
Based on what Luke says any run of the mill force sensitive has the potential to be just as powerful as him, Mace, Yoda and Palpatine, but they just got to believe. Little or no training required.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 14, 2020 7:47:52 GMT
Debateable if the turret is built to be user friendly. Nothing has ever been said about the Falcon's canon being "user friendly". And if it was then it'd be user friendly for everybody, not just Rey. That isn't what we've seen. Luke and Finn both miss their targets the first several times they fire them, and several times after too, and both are Force sensitive and more experienced firing ship-mounted guns or guns in general than she is. Dude, if you have to make things up to find excuses why a character isn't a mary sue then it's because the character is a mary sue. When you're writing half the book yourself in order to get it to make sense then you're just compensating for shitty writing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 14, 2020 7:53:11 GMT
Finn wasn't using the Force. Even with the force you still need to train with being a good shot. Anakin didn’t. The first time he ever fired a ship’s guns he nailed small targets and later destroyed an entire massive ship by threading the needle and hitting the main reactor.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 14, 2020 8:09:28 GMT
Debateable if the turret is built to be user friendly. Nothing has ever been said about the Falcon's canon being "user friendly". And if it was then it'd be user friendly for everybody, not just Rey. That isn't what we've seen. Luke and Finn both miss their targets the first several times they fire them, and several times after too, and both are Force sensitive and more experienced firing ship-mounted guns or guns in general than she is. Dude, if you have to make things up to find excuses why a character isn't a mary sue then it's because the character is a mary sue. When you're writing half the book yourself in order to get it to make sense then you're just compensating for shitty writing. You know I just realized something. Luke had no trouble using it in ANH. And Finn had no trouble using it in TFA. The second part is the much more interesting since he had trouble with the TIE fighter gunnery station and yet had zero trouble with the Falcon's so...user friendly or not and I would bet that it is...it would seem to be more user friendly then the firing controls on a TIE. So perhaps we aren't making things up and finding excuses as to why someone isn't a MS, perhaps you are just being logically inconsistent.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 14, 2020 9:07:33 GMT
Even with the force you still need to train with being a good shot. Anakin didn’t. The first time he ever fired a ship’s guns he nailed small targets and later destroyed an entire massive ship by threading the needle and hitting the main reactor. Inaccurate, he sprays the hangar with only the final series of shots hitting the targets. You actually see him hitting wall as the ship turns. And hitting a target about the size of your average three story building when talking about a capital ship grade hyper matter reactor it isn't so much threading the needle as bothering to aim straight so it doesn't hit the corridor walls. ._.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 14, 2020 9:08:07 GMT
Debateable if the turret is built to be user friendly. Nothing has ever been said about the Falcon's canon being "user friendly". And if it was then it'd be user friendly for everybody, not just Rey. That isn't what we've seen. Luke and Finn both miss their targets the first several times they fire them, and several times after too, and both are Force sensitive and more experienced firing ship-mounted guns or guns in general than she is. Dude, if you have to make things up to find excuses why a character isn't a mary sue then it's because the character is a mary sue. When you're writing half the book yourself in order to get it to make sense then you're just compensating for shitty writing. User friendly to use and aim, but the Force means you can aim better than most. It's less about making things up, and more simply not being hung up on the fact that she made the shot, and declaring, "Well, that has to be explained because it is inconsistent!" Inconsistent compared to examples of, what, 2 scenes in the movies? So two scenes govern rules on how easy it is for anyone, neophyte to experience pilot (that would be the difference between Han and Luke who seem to be about even skilled for some reason) to use the turret. OR.... it's really not inconsistent. People just have different aptitudes, and those rules are out the window with regard to people strong with the Force who know how to use it, even for only 6 days.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 14, 2020 9:10:41 GMT
You know I just realized something. Luke had no trouble using it in ANH. And Finn had no trouble using it in TFA. The second part is the much more interesting since he had trouble with the TIE fighter gunnery station and yet had zero trouble with the Falcon's so...user friendly or not and I would bet that it is...it would seem to be more user friendly then the firing controls on a TIE. So perhaps we aren't making things up and finding excuses as to why someone isn't a MS, perhaps you are just being logically inconsistent. Straw man. Whether or not it's something an average person can use was never in question. Anyone can slide into a seat and start pushing buttons. The point, as I said, is that Luke and Finn both have a better premise for being able to use a canon competently than Rey has, and both take several pot-shots before being able to hit a single Tie-fighter in flight - and not even managing that in Finn's case. But the first time we see Rey pull the trigger she scores a "lucky" never-before-seen triple kill with the blast going straight through three separate Tie-fighters and continuing on, when we've never seen it fully penetrate even one before. You guys making up new Force abilities and firing modes for the Falcon or whatever, pretending that it must be easy to blow trained fighter pilots in state-of-the-art warships out of the air and trying to frame the gun as being some instakill laser with perfect training wheels that nobody has just ever taken proper advantage of before doesn't change that. Like with everything else, the rules of the universe suddenly and inexplicably operate differently around Rey than around every other person. Which we have a very convenient term for. I seriously don't get why you can't just admit that she's a mary sue and that you love her anyway. All this extra work you're doing for Johnson and Abrams to bail their scripts out is really unnecessary. User friendly to use and aim, but the Force means you can aim better than most. It's less about making things up, and more simply not being hung up on the fact that she made the shot, and declaring, "Well, that has to be explained because it is inconsistent!" Inconsistent compared to examples of, what, 2 scenes in the movies? So two scenes govern rules on how easy it is for anyone, neophyte to experience pilot (that would be the difference between Han and Luke who seem to be about even skilled for some reason) to use the turret. OR.... it's really not inconsistent. People just have different aptitudes, and those rules are out the window with regard to people strong with the Force who know how to use it, even for only 6 days. No, it doesn't. Finn has the Force and he doesn't hit anything until Rey aims the entire Falcon at a fighter and he just pulls the trigger. Luke and Anakin have the Force and are consistently shown missing more than they hit. Han Solo is a crackshot with implied Force sensitivity and is still shown missing a lot of the time, with his blaster and with his ship's guns, which have been shown multiple times not to operate the way Rey uses them in one scene just to make her look awesome. These tendencies have been consistent with everyone we've seen fly throughout thirty years of movies and books and cartoons which you're trying to contradict just to bail out one overpowered mary sue of a character. You're being silly.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 14, 2020 12:05:55 GMT
👆Bet that's way better than the movie.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 14, 2020 14:31:04 GMT
Anakin didn’t. The first time he ever fired a ship’s guns he nailed small targets and later destroyed an entire massive ship by threading the needle and hitting the main reactor. Inaccurate, he sprays the hangar with only the final series of shots hitting the targets. You actually see him hitting wall as the ship turns. And hitting a target about the size of your average three story building when talking about a capital ship grade hyper matter reactor it isn't so much threading the needle as bothering to aim straight so it doesn't hit the corridor walls. ._. That's pedestrian, If Anakin shot down 3 tie fighters that were lined up for a fraction of a second with a single shot then decimated their entire squadron of pilots who were trained for their combat roles since birth in 30 seconds then i'd buy the claim that he was the chosen one.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 14, 2020 15:07:55 GMT
... User friendly to use and aim, but the Force means you can aim better than most. It's less about making things up, and more simply not being hung up on the fact that she made the shot, and declaring, "Well, that has to be explained because it is inconsistent!" Inconsistent compared to examples of, what, 2 scenes in the movies? So two scenes govern rules on how easy it is for anyone, neophyte to experience pilot (that would be the difference between Han and Luke who seem to be about even skilled for some reason) to use the turret. OR.... it's really not inconsistent. People just have different aptitudes, and those rules are out the window with regard to people strong with the Force who know how to use it, even for only 6 days. No, it doesn't. Finn has the Force and he doesn't hit anything until Rey aims the entire Falcon at a fighter and he just pulls the trigger. Luke and Anakin have the Force and are consistently shown missing more than they hit. ... But they don't know how to use the Force, which Rey does. ... Han Solo is a crackshot with implied Force sensitivity and is still shown missing a lot of the time, with his blaster and with his ship's guns, which have been shown multiple times not to operate the way Rey uses them in one scene just to make her look awesome. ... We're speaking of the turrets on the Falcon, and there are only two scenes in movies where they were used, ANH and TFA. As I said, the first scene with ANH shows the experienced pilot Han and new kid Luke using the turrets with almost equal skill, so what's so consistent there that is inconsistent elsewhere? Oh, Luke took a few shows before hitting something like Han? That's so consistent 'n stuff. ... These tendencies have been consistent with everyone we've seen fly throughout thirty years of movies and books and cartoons which you're trying to contradict just to bail out one overpowered mary sue of a character. You're being silly. You know what's silly? We don't see the shot that blows up the three Tie fighters from the Millenium Falcon, so it really could have been Chewie using the forward cannons.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 14, 2020 16:14:33 GMT
... These tendencies have been consistent with everyone we've seen fly throughout thirty years of movies and books and cartoons which you're trying to contradict just to bail out one overpowered mary sue of a character. You're being silly. You know what's silly? We don't see the shot that blows up the three Tie fighters from the Millenium Falcon, so it really could have been Chewie using the forward cannons.
Chewie fired the gun one time and one time only, and took the rest of the fight off? I mean C'mon. Rey was the only one shown shooting during the scene, and she was shown doing it in all directions from the bottom of the Falcon.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 14, 2020 17:25:38 GMT
I watched TFA a few months ago with my nephew (14 years old) who isn't a fan. Even he knew she was a Sue by the time the credits rolled. It's SO obvious
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 14, 2020 17:41:29 GMT
But they don't know how to use the Force, which Rey does. We're speaking of the turrets on the Falcon, and there are only two scenes in movies where they were used, ANH and TFA. As I said, the first scene with ANH shows the experienced pilot Han and new kid Luke using the turrets with almost equal skill, so what's so consistent there that is inconsistent elsewhere? Oh, Luke took a few shows before hitting something like Han? That's so consistent 'n stuff. You know what's silly? We don't see the shot that blows up the three Tie fighters from the Millenium Falcon, so it really could have been Chewie using the forward cannons. Luke gets a lengthier and more thorough introduction to the Force and how to use it from a better trained and motivated and more experienced teacher than Rey ever did before he gets into the turret, and so far as I remember he doesn't get around to teaching her the "Force enhance gunnery" power while dicking around with her on the island, meaning that whatever you think the Force does to help with aiming canons that it's never been seen to do before is something subconscious or very basic. Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. How the guns work and what they're capable of is shown in two separate scenes in two separate movies, besides all the extra material, and Luke and Han not being worlds apart in skill doesn't somehow make it plausible for Rey to become a world-class gunner the first time we see her fire a blast. And not only does the Millennium Falcon only have two canons with identical specs for ship-to-ship combat, Chewie is also in the process of flying the ship without a copilot at that particular moment. He also isn't shown firing a single shot for the rest of the battle while she merrily fires away and blasts Tie-fighters to pieces left and right. Soo.... nope, probably not.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 14, 2020 18:51:57 GMT
You know I just realized something. Luke had no trouble using it in ANH. And Finn had no trouble using it in TFA. The second part is the much more interesting since he had trouble with the TIE fighter gunnery station and yet had zero trouble with the Falcon's so...user friendly or not and I would bet that it is...it would seem to be more user friendly then the firing controls on a TIE. So perhaps we aren't making things up and finding excuses as to why someone isn't a MS, perhaps you are just being logically inconsistent. Straw man. Whether or not it's something an average person can use was never in question. Anyone can slide into a seat and start pushing buttons. The point, as I said, is that Luke and Finn both have a better premise for being able to use a canon competently than Rey has, and both take several pot-shots before being able to hit a single Tie-fighter in flight - and not even managing that in Finn's case. But the first time we see Rey pull the trigger she scores a "lucky" never-before-seen triple kill with the blast going straight through three separate Tie-fighters and continuing on, when we've never seen it fully penetrate even one before. You guys making up new Force abilities and firing modes for the Falcon or whatever, pretending that it must be easy to blow trained fighter pilots in state-of-the-art warships out of the air and trying to frame the gun as being some instakill laser with perfect training wheels that nobody has just ever taken proper advantage of before doesn't change that. Like with everything else, the rules of the universe suddenly and inexplicably operate differently around Rey than around every other person. Which we have a very convenient term for. I seriously don't get why you can't just admit that she's a mary sue and that you love her anyway. All this extra work you're doing for Johnson and Abrams to bail their scripts out is really unnecessary. User friendly to use and aim, but the Force means you can aim better than most. It's less about making things up, and more simply not being hung up on the fact that she made the shot, and declaring, "Well, that has to be explained because it is inconsistent!" Inconsistent compared to examples of, what, 2 scenes in the movies? So two scenes govern rules on how easy it is for anyone, neophyte to experience pilot (that would be the difference between Han and Luke who seem to be about even skilled for some reason) to use the turret. OR.... it's really not inconsistent. People just have different aptitudes, and those rules are out the window with regard to people strong with the Force who know how to use it, even for only 6 days. No, it doesn't. Finn has the Force and he doesn't hit anything until Rey aims the entire Falcon at a fighter and he just pulls the trigger. Luke and Anakin have the Force and are consistently shown missing more than they hit. Han Solo is a crackshot with implied Force sensitivity and is still shown missing a lot of the time, with his blaster and with his ship's guns, which have been shown multiple times not to operate the way Rey uses them in one scene just to make her look awesome. These tendencies have been consistent with everyone we've seen fly throughout thirty years of movies and books and cartoons which you're trying to contradict just to bail out one overpowered mary sue of a character. You're being silly. Now there's an interesting comment. Of course then I'd have to accept the current bastardization of the term...and I don't. Edit: also I suppose just based on TFA she MIGHT be. But then our interpretations of TLJ vary so wildly that there really can't be common ground. She got her ass kicked and showed severe character flaws which are never a part of a bastard sue... what I'm going to start calling it now. ... No, it doesn't. Finn has the Force and he doesn't hit anything until Rey aims the entire Falcon at a fighter and he just pulls the trigger. Luke and Anakin have the Force and are consistently shown missing more than they hit. ... But they don't know how to use the Force, which Rey does. ... Han Solo is a crackshot with implied Force sensitivity and is still shown missing a lot of the time, with his blaster and with his ship's guns, which have been shown multiple times not to operate the way Rey uses them in one scene just to make her look awesome. ... We're speaking of the turrets on the Falcon, and there are only two scenes in movies where they were used, ANH and TFA. As I said, the first scene with ANH shows the experienced pilot Han and new kid Luke using the turrets with almost equal skill, so what's so consistent there that is inconsistent elsewhere? Oh, Luke took a few shows before hitting something like Han? That's so consistent 'n stuff. ... These tendencies have been consistent with everyone we've seen fly throughout thirty years of movies and books and cartoons which you're trying to contradict just to bail out one overpowered mary sue of a character. You're being silly. You know what's silly? We don't see the shot that blows up the three Tie fighters from the Millenium Falcon, so it really could have been Chewie using the forward cannons. Obadiah that is a pretty big stretch....actually I double checked the scene to be sure and I would've been wrong. Based on the framing of the shots it could've been Chewie. Unlikely since I don't think we've seen the Falcon's forward guns shoot down anything...but possible. I watched TFA a few months ago with my nephew (14 years old) who isn't a fan. Even he knew she was a Sue by the time the credits rolled. It's SO obvious Ah yes the 'my 14 year old can see it argument.' That politicians use.
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Post by mybudgee on Feb 14, 2020 20:46:25 GMT
Well, the fact that you don't think there's a mental aspect to training for sports makes me question if you've ever played one. . . I might've mispoken but I DON'T think sports is all about mental mindset...my point was that is the big difference between sports and using the Force. Though your point about martial arts is very apt. Point 2 I don't think anyone can use the Force to the level of Yoda nor can everyone use it to the level of a typical Jedi. Its theoretically possible since everyone theoretically has the Force but there is LYs of difference between theory and practice. I mean I don't even think the new comics support that either... Basically to me everyone is sensitive to the Force in SWs but only a select few can actively wield it just like...again based on my previous (flawed) analogy everyone can run but not everyone can be an NFL wide reciever or a track star. Keep in mind though for anyone who can use the Force lifting a broom should be child's play. This is one of the WORST things about the crap sequels, it has kids believing idiotic nonsense about the Force The Force is a mystical energy field, not a participation trophy for Christ's sake. Sorry but EVERYONE ISN'T sensitive to it
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 14, 2020 21:15:19 GMT
I might've mispoken but I DON'T think sports is all about mental mindset...my point was that is the big difference between sports and using the Force. Though your point about martial arts is very apt. Point 2 I don't think anyone can use the Force to the level of Yoda nor can everyone use it to the level of a typical Jedi. Its theoretically possible since everyone theoretically has the Force but there is LYs of difference between theory and practice. I mean I don't even think the new comics support that either... Basically to me everyone is sensitive to the Force in SWs but only a select few can actively wield it just like...again based on my previous (flawed) analogy everyone can run but not everyone can be an NFL wide reciever or a track star. Keep in mind though for anyone who can use the Force lifting a broom should be child's play. This is one of the WORST things about the crap sequels, it has kids believing idiotic nonsense about the Force The Force is a mystical energy field, not a participation trophy for Christ's sake. Sorry but EVERYONE ISN'T sensitive to it Depends what you mean by sensitive.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 14, 2020 21:48:42 GMT
This is one of the WORST things about the crap sequels, it has kids believing idiotic nonsense about the Force The Force is a mystical energy field, not a participation trophy for Christ's sake. Sorry but EVERYONE ISN'T sensitive to it Depends what you mean by sensitive. Adepts is what I assume he implied which if you go by any metric is about accurate. Even in the old EU the vast majority of the galaxy wasn't especially sensitive or attuned to it, this doubly so in the sequel trilogy where you had no real practitioners of note little lone little adepts.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 14, 2020 23:14:17 GMT
I might've mispoken but I DON'T think sports is all about mental mindset...my point was that is the big difference between sports and using the Force. Though your point about martial arts is very apt. Point 2 I don't think anyone can use the Force to the level of Yoda nor can everyone use it to the level of a typical Jedi. Its theoretically possible since everyone theoretically has the Force but there is LYs of difference between theory and practice. I mean I don't even think the new comics support that either... Basically to me everyone is sensitive to the Force in SWs but only a select few can actively wield it just like...again based on my previous (flawed) analogy everyone can run but not everyone can be an NFL wide reciever or a track star. Keep in mind though for anyone who can use the Force lifting a broom should be child's play. This is one of the WORST things about the crap sequels, it has kids believing idiotic nonsense about the Force The Force is a mystical energy field, not a participation trophy for Christ's sake. Sorry but EVERYONE ISN'T sensitive to it How is this a bad lesson to teach anyone? I mean whats fascinating about this is that these arguments from the people who seem to take umbrage at Disney's perspective is along political lines, and while I am someone who usually takes umbrage at the idea of participation trophies... The Force isn't a trophy. Its not something that you can just possess or own or keep. That logic sounds creepily like the Clone Wars era Jedi. Its not something you can posses nor is it a 'reward' for good behavior. The Force is an energy field that connects all life, is created by all life, all life needs it to survive and all life (that we know of) has microscopic organisms in their blood stream which gives them some kind of a connection to the Force. Now thanks to the Sequels we know that connection isn't the end all and be all but yes...if you follow that logic through to its natural conclusion...then all life has the Force on some level within the SWs universe. The difference between a 'Jedi' and Han Solo comes down to genetics, training, mental discipline, and probably a whole host of other factors. Which is what I mean by sensitive. Everyone can hear the Force, not everyone can lift boulders or project themselves across the galaxy.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 15, 2020 3:12:54 GMT
"SEAGULLS! (Stop It Now)" -- A Bad Lip Reading of The Empire Strikes Back
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 15, 2020 7:58:28 GMT
Now there's an interesting comment. Of course then I'd have to accept the current bastardization of the term...and I don't. Edit: also I suppose just based on TFA she MIGHT be. But then our interpretations of TLJ vary so wildly that there really can't be common ground. She got her ass kicked and showed severe character flaws which are never a part of a bastard sue... what I'm going to start calling it now. Ah yes the 'my 14 year old can see it argument.' That politicians use. I wish you could see how hilarious it is that you're calling a character's extreme compassion and pure-hardheartedness "their severe character flaws" while whining about being forced to accept the actual and agreed-upon definition of a term that has never meant anything else so far as I know. And Rey doesn't "take a beating", she's momentarily overpowered and momentarily in pain before her specialness inspires a monster to rescue her and kill the smarter, eviler and more powerful villain on her behalf, before she stands up and shows that she's way more badass than he is. That's another mary sue trait, by the way. Everyone just... loves her. For reasons. And of course, everything she does just magically happens to work out for the best because the audience can't come away with the notion that she really fucked up. You also call out the "even children can see" argument while making your own politician's "but isn't this a better message to send to children" one in the very next post. And it isn't, no. Sending a message that you can just expect to excel and make a difference without hard work and critical self-reflection is ridiculously destructive and had no damn place in our Star Wars. And the movies - and TLJ in particular - are full of other insane messages. Be hypercritical of men's "rash and selfish" natures, but don't question a woman's decision no matter how insane or illogical it seems, and support it no matter how terribly it turns out, that's how you become a true henpecked sycophant "leader". Wanton destruction of property and chaos in the streets is the answer to economic and political corruption. And according to you, a woman failing to kiss and hug and screw the evil out of a monster she just met is a huge personal failure on her part. Oh, and old men are too confused and stupid to deserve to play a part in things and are best just used as distractions and examples without getting involved. Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson are the ones who have ground up and re-purposed the Star Wars franchise for their politics, and messed up hugely while doing it. Don't blame the people who are fans of strong and consistent storytelling that doesn't bend itself over backwards to seem woke for not being a fan of that. "You just don't like it because of your politics" is just another stupid cop out. People don't like it because it's preachy bullshit that doesn't make sense and doesn't care about telling a cohesive story.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 8:52:20 GMT
Now there's an interesting comment. Of course then I'd have to accept the current bastardization of the term...and I don't. Edit: also I suppose just based on TFA she MIGHT be. But then our interpretations of TLJ vary so wildly that there really can't be common ground. She got her ass kicked and showed severe character flaws which are never a part of a bastard sue... what I'm going to start calling it now. Ah yes the 'my 14 year old can see it argument.' That politicians use. I wish you could see how hilarious it is that you're calling a character's extreme compassion and pure-hardheartedness "their severe character flaws" while whining about being forced to accept the actual and agreed-upon definition of a term that has never meant anything else so far as I know. And Rey doesn't "take a beating", she's momentarily overpowered and momentarily in pain before her specialness inspires a monster to rescue her and kill the smarter, eviler and more powerful villain on her behalf, before she stands up and shows that she's way more badass than he is. That's another mary sue trait, by the way. Everyone just... loves her. For reasons. And of course, everything she does just magically happens to work out for the best because the audience can't come away with the notion that she really fucked up. You also call out the "even children can see" argument while making your own politician's "but isn't this a better message to send to children" one in the very next post. And it isn't, no. Sending a message that you can just expect to excel and make a difference without hard work and critical self-reflection is ridiculously destructive and had no damn place in our Star Wars. And the movies - and TLJ in particular - are full of other insane messages. Be hypercritical of men's "rash and selfish" natures, but don't question a woman's decision no matter how insane or illogical it seems, and support it no matter how terribly it turns out, that's how you become a true henpecked sycophant "leader". Wanton destruction of property and chaos in the streets is the answer to economic and political corruption. And according to you, a woman failing to kiss and hug and screw the evil out of a monster she just met is a huge personal failure on her part. Oh, and old men are too confused and stupid to deserve to play a part in things and are best just used as distractions and examples without getting involved. Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson are the ones who have ground up and re-purposed the Star Wars franchise for their politics, and messed up hugely while doing it. Don't blame the people who are fans of strong and consistent storytelling that doesn't bend itself over backwards to seem woke for not being a fan of that. "You just don't like it because of your politics" is just another stupid cop out. People don't like it because it's preachy bullshit that doesn't make sense and doesn't care about telling a cohesive story. *SIGH* I will say before I start off that a good deal of this post...especially the last two paragraphs...sounded like gibberish. I only point this out because I will attempt to answer, but if I miss the mark it might need further clarification. Yes, that is perhaps her most consistently bastard sue trait...though given the fact she is just so dang lovable I let it slide. (Except of course when she is beating up on senior citizens...FROM BEHIND) Fair enough I suppose... Though I just still disagree with it. It is a great message to send to kids...or well the actual message of the Sequels and not the one that people keep on seeming wanting to assign for it...maybe for political reasons...maybe for their own biases. Who knows. But anyways the message that I take from the Sequels is that 'through hard work and determination you can succeed and be a Jedi or a big hero'. To apply that in practical real world terms you can acheive your objectives and goals as long as you work hard at it, believe in yourself, and your own humanity does not doom you to failure. The prequels...especially all the heroes...were pretty unreltable to me (aside from Obi-Wan's snark). They looked like a blooded aristocracy of Space Wizards who us lowly humans could never hope to emulate. Worse still our actual human emotions were shown to be evil and corrupting. The Sequels undid all this damage. And its kind of curious how much you (and some others) insist on having your cake. The whole repeatition of the 'If everyone is special then no one is' meme is indicitive of the desire for some of the fans of Star Wars to agree with this point of view on the Force. That no matter how much hard work you put in, no matter how hard you try, you might never make it. You will never be a Jedi because it The Force is for only the Chosen Few. Sure that might be a realistic message, but I don't find it an especially helpful one. But yet you cry foul when Rey, using your own logic and arguments, is the ideal Jedi for you. She does not have to work hard. She is super Special and flawless and is the ideal Jedi who does not have to work hard...from a certain point of view it sounds like you should be the one celebrating her character as the ideal uber mench to which you think all Jedi are. ...When was the Last Jedi critical of Men's 'rash and selfish natures'...are you talking about the Poe arc? That is a really interesting take of the Poe arc. ...When did the Last Jedi (or any of the movies for that matter) say you should never question Women's decisions? Rey? Holdo? Leia even? Rey makes several questionable decisions, which are questioned by the far more wiser and world weary 'men' in her life. Holdo's decision is some small part of the reason why their plan ended in disaster. Granted it was MOSTLY Poe's fault but there was little reason to keep him out of the plan given the circumstances. huh? I know this is a reference to the Last Jedi and the escape from Canto Bight and...I guess to be fair you might have a bit of a point and I can see unfortunate implications for some of the...*ahem*...'Occupy Wallstreet' Crowd. On the other hand all that violence and destruction was not being used by Finn and Rose to solve the economic problems on the planet or stage some sort of revolution...it was simply a result of their rather messy escape attempt. Finn just pointed out it felt *good* to make them hurt. Bit petty and again speaks to both the French and the Russian revoltutions but on the face of it it was mostly *fine*. ...When did I ever say that? That was not one of Rey's character flaws from my perspective. . I do not think I ever wanted her to screw the evil out of Kylo . Afterall in the actual movie it was mostly Leia who did the actual redeaming though Rey did help and then when Ben came back to the light then she was perectly willing to *ahem* him...pitty he died. Double Huh?...nope not even touching that one. I think you are entirely missing the point of my post. I happen to agree with the politics and the dangers of participation trophies and not working hard for what you earn and just being lazy and allowing 'the man' to take care of you. All this is highly problematic...which is why I point out that its actually an interesting phemnon that I see none of that present in the Sequels. Quite the contrary actually. I mean I am not especially woke...I detest the term personally. But yeah back to the Sequels...lets see here. They revel in the humanity of their characters...they can be scared, angry, vengeful, and not end up turning into monsters...they revel in the need for hard work and not being born with a silver genetic spoon...and they do not advance one gender over another, actually on this last point I can see a lot of feminists being pissed just how often Rey is saved by men over the course of the trilogy...and the general incompetence of Holdo...but then I'm not one of them, so I don't know.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 15, 2020 11:06:20 GMT
But anyways the message that I take from the Sequels is that 'through hard work and determination you can succeed and be a Jedi or a big hero'. To apply that in practical real world terms you can acheive your objectives and goals as long as you work hard at it, believe in yourself, and your own humanity does not doom you to failure. The prequels...especially all the heroes...were pretty unreltable to me (aside from Obi-Wan's snark). They looked like a blooded aristocracy of Space Wizards who us lowly humans could never hope to emulate. Worse still our actual human emotions were shown to be evil and corrupting. The Sequels undid all this damage. And its kind of curious how much you (and some others) insist on having your cake. The whole repeatition of the 'If everyone is special then no one is' meme is indicitive of the desire for some of the fans of Star Wars to agree with this point of view on the Force. That no matter how much hard work you put in, no matter how hard you try, you might never make it. You will never be a Jedi because it The Force is for only the Chosen Few. Sure that might be a realistic message, but I don't find it an especially helpful one. But yet you cry foul when Rey, using your own logic and arguments, is the ideal Jedi for you. She does not have to work hard. She is super Special and flawless and is the ideal Jedi who does not have to work hard...from a certain point of view it sounds like you should be the one celebrating her character as the ideal uber mench to which you think all Jedi are. ...When was the Last Jedi critical of Men's 'rash and selfish natures'...are you talking about the Poe arc? That is a really interesting take of the Poe arc. ...When did the Last Jedi (or any of the movies for that matter) say you should never question Women's decisions? Rey? Holdo? Leia even? Rey makes several questionable decisions, which are questioned by the far more wiser and world weary 'men' in her life. Holdo's decision is some small part of the reason why their plan ended in disaster. Granted it was MOSTLY Poe's fault but there was little reason to keep him out of the plan given the circumstances. huh? I know this is a reference to the Last Jedi and the escape from Canto Bight and...I guess to be fair you might have a bit of a point and I can see unfortunate implications for some of the...*ahem*...'Occupy Wallstreet' Crowd. On the other hand all that violence and destruction was not being used by Finn and Rose to solve the economic problems on the planet or stage some sort of revolution...it was simply a result of their rather messy escape attempt. Finn just pointed out it felt *good* to make them hurt. Bit petty and again speaks to both the French and the Russian revoltutions but on the face of it it was mostly *fine*. ...When did I ever say that? That was not one of Rey's character flaws from my perspective. . I do not think I ever wanted her to screw the evil out of Kylo . Afterall in the actual movie it was mostly Leia who did the actual redeaming though Rey did help and then when Ben came back to the light then she was perectly willing to *ahem* him...pitty he died. I think you are entirely missing the point of my post. I happen to agree with the politics and the dangers of participation trophies and not working hard for what you earn and just being lazy and allowing 'the man' to take care of you. All this is highly problematic...which is why I point out that its actually an interesting phemnon that I see none of that present in the Sequels. Quite the contrary actually. I mean I am not especially woke...I detest the term personally. But yeah back to the Sequels...lets see here. They revel in the humanity of their characters...they can be scared, angry, vengeful, and not end up turning into monsters...they revel in the need for hard work and not being born with a silver genetic spoon...and they do not advance one gender over another, actually on this last point I can see a lot of feminists being pissed just how often Rey is saved by men over the course of the trilogy...and the general incompetence of Holdo...but then I'm not one of them, so I don't know. Your first point is rather undermined by the fact that the main character does not struggle or have to compromise herself significantly at any point in the story to succeed and be the absolute best and overshadow literally everyone else at everything, and that the second arc features actual true heroes who have saved planets suddenly being dressed down, berated, nonsensically moralized at about just being out for their own glory for making the right decisions and that being treated as a big moral lesson for ""heroes"" everywhere. Your interpretation of the prequel trilogy hinges on those movies somehow making a point of Jedi being the only beings in the galaxy with the potential for greatness in them, which they objectively do not, and them making a point of human emotion being inherently evil rather than just dangerous, which, again, they do not. Yes, it does sound to me like you've just watched those movies and felt offended at them pointing out that there are specific things that you will never be able to do, and resented that they made you self-conscious about how destructive your feelings can be if you let them run away with you, which is about the most useful and helpful lesson a human being can learn. And Jedi are sure as shit shown to have to work hard. What in the world do you imagine dedicating decades of your existence to mastering yourself and serving others is? Forgoing everything that everyone else take for granted? Easy? Comfortable? You happily pretend that Rey looking pained for one second or having to try something three times over a minute before succeeding is a bitter struggle, while totally forgetting the immense sacrifice all other Jedi are shown to have to make to reach their potential with the Force. And then you try to call me a hypocrite. Seems to me that your entire interpretation of the series is based on selectively forgetting and overlooking what actually happens in it. What do we call that, again? Oh, yes, a misinterpretation.I'm talking about Poe's arc and Finn's, yes. You know, the male protagonists. Poe ends the first movie being the one to personally blow up Starkiller Base, and starts the second by leading his men to destroy a warship stated to be capable of destroying the entire Resistance fleet without assistance because he judges that removing it from the game when they have the chance is absolutely necessary so it doesn't pop up and kill them all later instead. For this decision he is demoted and Leia and Holdo both accuse him of being a gloryhound who is just saving the galaxy because he wants to be a big cool hero. ...After it turns out that the First Order can track them through hyperspace and that that Dreadnought would have been right on them and killed them all immediately afterwards if he hadn't made the call to destroy it. Oh, and that all the fighter pilots he sacrificed to do that would also have been completely useless in the ensuing chase anyway. He made the exact right decision after having already proved his loyalty beyond a doubt. And a third of the movie's runtime is devoted to punishing him for that and teaching him a lesson about not being so decisive and listening to the superior women who think they know better instead and don't trust him. Which he tragically takes to heart at the end, and very nearly dooms the Resistance but for a deus ex machina. And we've already discussed Finn and how stupid and nonsensical his character arc is. And no, the movie portrays his and Rose's enjoyment of causing wanton destruction, endangering people they had no reason to believe deserved it and causing massive trouble for the poor little orphans they suddenly and illogically pretend to represent as an entirely heroic and justified thing to be proud of. Calling it objectively petty and saying it's only "mostly fine" doesn't mean or change anything. Rose's skewed and immature view of how everything economical works is the one the movie accepts and encourages. Again, for a third of its runtime. And Holdo doesn't "play some small part" in her plan falling apart. It hinges on Hux arbitrarily deciding that the escape transports fleeing toward a planet he can see perfectly well out of his window are "just distractions" and aren't worth shooting down after he's spent the entire movie destroying everything Resistance that came within his reach. It's an objectively stupid plan that relies entirely on the villains making stupid and uncharacteristic decisions, and it's ruined because Holdo is an incompetent leader who doesn't give a damn about reassuring her people that she has a plan at all and aren't just waiting for them all to die. Even when they explicitly beg her for any sign that that isn't the case. Poe makes the perfectly logical call of helping people he trusts get started on a backup plan and giving her every possible chance to tell him and everyone else that they have reason to follow her before relieving her of her duty when she abjectly refuses to do so for no reason. The only reason things go wrong is because she convinced her entire command that they were doomed, and that there was no plan to interfere with and so nothing to lose by going for another long-shot. And after it all blows up in everyone's faces the movie portrays it as an important lesson that Poe takes to heart by calling off the Resistance's only chance of surviving out of concern for eight or so people, and Rose essentially decides to kill both herself and Finn just to prevent Finn from following through anyway. It's a stupid and insane clusterfuck of themes and messages that bottom out into "The guys are too hasty and stupid and self-sacrificing and the women know better, and when women do the exact same things as the men it's truly heroic and compassionate and makes perfect sense because reasons instead." And you can't have it both ways. Either Rey failing to redeem Kylo after having known him for a few hours is a monumental personal failure that shows how flawed and imperfect a character she is, in which case you're literally saying that his subsequent monstrous actions are actually her responsibility for failing to love the evil out of him... Or Kylo committed atrocities because he was a lunatic and Rey merely tried to redeem him out of the goodness of her heart, in which case she's an angel who tried to save a doomed soul. It's either or. You're also showing concern for feminists for having to worry about Rey being saved by a man while ignoring the fact that Rey saves one man after another throughout each movie in the trilogy. That's rather blatant sexism.
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