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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 15, 2020 18:20:42 GMT
Also, vis-a-vis the discussion about "everyone having access to the force". Remember this handsome guy, a few movies ago?: The whole point of his character - and why everyone thought he was ridiculously cool - was that he worshiped the Force and had lived and trained its teachings so hard as to approximate the skill and intuition of someone who was really Force sensitive, without having any actual connection to or power over it at all. If everyone has even just the potential for Force sensitivity - which I still haven't heard a single quotation from a book or movie or comic or Disney interview that outright suggested yet - then that's a complete 180' from Disney's own original direction with the movies.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 18:22:30 GMT
But anyways the message that I take from the Sequels is that 'through hard work and determination you can succeed and be a Jedi or a big hero'. To apply that in practical real world terms you can acheive your objectives and goals as long as you work hard at it, believe in yourself, and your own humanity does not doom you to failure. The prequels...especially all the heroes...were pretty unreltable to me (aside from Obi-Wan's snark). They looked like a blooded aristocracy of Space Wizards who us lowly humans could never hope to emulate. Worse still our actual human emotions were shown to be evil and corrupting. The Sequels undid all this damage. And its kind of curious how much you (and some others) insist on having your cake. The whole repeatition of the 'If everyone is special then no one is' meme is indicitive of the desire for some of the fans of Star Wars to agree with this point of view on the Force. That no matter how much hard work you put in, no matter how hard you try, you might never make it. You will never be a Jedi because it The Force is for only the Chosen Few. Sure that might be a realistic message, but I don't find it an especially helpful one. But yet you cry foul when Rey, using your own logic and arguments, is the ideal Jedi for you. She does not have to work hard. She is super Special and flawless and is the ideal Jedi who does not have to work hard...from a certain point of view it sounds like you should be the one celebrating her character as the ideal uber mench to which you think all Jedi are. ...When was the Last Jedi critical of Men's 'rash and selfish natures'...are you talking about the Poe arc? That is a really interesting take of the Poe arc. ...When did the Last Jedi (or any of the movies for that matter) say you should never question Women's decisions? Rey? Holdo? Leia even? Rey makes several questionable decisions, which are questioned by the far more wiser and world weary 'men' in her life. Holdo's decision is some small part of the reason why their plan ended in disaster. Granted it was MOSTLY Poe's fault but there was little reason to keep him out of the plan given the circumstances. huh? I know this is a reference to the Last Jedi and the escape from Canto Bight and...I guess to be fair you might have a bit of a point and I can see unfortunate implications for some of the...*ahem*...'Occupy Wallstreet' Crowd. On the other hand all that violence and destruction was not being used by Finn and Rose to solve the economic problems on the planet or stage some sort of revolution...it was simply a result of their rather messy escape attempt. Finn just pointed out it felt *good* to make them hurt. Bit petty and again speaks to both the French and the Russian revoltutions but on the face of it it was mostly *fine*. ...When did I ever say that? That was not one of Rey's character flaws from my perspective. . I do not think I ever wanted her to screw the evil out of Kylo . Afterall in the actual movie it was mostly Leia who did the actual redeaming though Rey did help and then when Ben came back to the light then she was perectly willing to *ahem* him...pitty he died. I think you are entirely missing the point of my post. I happen to agree with the politics and the dangers of participation trophies and not working hard for what you earn and just being lazy and allowing 'the man' to take care of you. All this is highly problematic...which is why I point out that its actually an interesting phemnon that I see none of that present in the Sequels. Quite the contrary actually. I mean I am not especially woke...I detest the term personally. But yeah back to the Sequels...lets see here. They revel in the humanity of their characters...they can be scared, angry, vengeful, and not end up turning into monsters...they revel in the need for hard work and not being born with a silver genetic spoon...and they do not advance one gender over another, actually on this last point I can see a lot of feminists being pissed just how often Rey is saved by men over the course of the trilogy...and the general incompetence of Holdo...but then I'm not one of them, so I don't know. Your first point is rather undermined by the fact that the main character does not struggle or have to compromise herself significantly at any point in the story to succeed and be the absolute best and overshadow literally everyone else at everything, and that the second arc features actual true heroes who have saved planets suddenly being dressed down, berated, nonsensically moralized at about just being out for their own glory for making the right decisions and that being treated as a big moral lesson for ""heroes"" everywhere. Your interpretation of the prequel trilogy hinges on those movies somehow making a point of Jedi being the only beings in the galaxy with the potential for greatness in them, which they objectively do not, and them making a point of human emotion being inherently evil rather than just dangerous, which, again, they do not. Yes, it does sound to me like you've just watched those movies and felt offended at them pointing out that there are specific things that you will never be able to do, and resented that they made you self-conscious about how destructive your feelings can be if you let them run away with you, which is about the most useful and helpful lesson a human being can learn. And Jedi are sure as shit shown to have to work hard. What in the world do you imagine dedicating decades of your existence to mastering yourself and serving others is? Forgoing everything that everyone else take for granted? Easy? Comfortable? You happily pretend that Rey looking pained for one second or having to try something three times over a minute before succeeding is a bitter struggle, while totally forgetting the immense sacrifice all other Jedi are shown to have to make to reach their potential with the Force. And then you try to call me a hypocrite. Seems to me that your entire interpretation of the series is based on selectively forgetting and overlooking what actually happens in it. What do we call that, again? Oh, yes, a misinterpretation.I'm talking about Poe's arc and Finn's, yes. You know, the male protagonists. Poe ends the first movie being the one to personally blow up Starkiller Base, and starts the second by leading his men to destroy a warship stated to be capable of destroying the entire Resistance fleet without assistance because he judges that removing it from the game when they have the chance is absolutely necessary so it doesn't pop up and kill them all later instead. For this decision he is demoted and Leia and Holdo both accuse him of being a gloryhound who is just saving the galaxy because he wants to be a big cool hero. ...After it turns out that the First Order can track them through hyperspace and that that Dreadnought would have been right on them and killed them all immediately afterwards if he hadn't made the call to destroy it. Oh, and that all the fighter pilots he sacrificed to do that would also have been completely useless in the ensuing chase anyway. He made the exact right decision after having already proved his loyalty beyond a doubt. And a third of the movie's runtime is devoted to punishing him for that and teaching him a lesson about not being so decisive and listening to the superior women who think they know better instead and don't trust him. Which he tragically takes to heart at the end, and very nearly dooms the Resistance but for a deus ex machina. And we've already discussed Finn and how stupid and nonsensical his character arc is. And no, the movie portrays his and Rose's enjoyment of causing wanton destruction, endangering people they had no reason to believe deserved it and causing massive trouble for the poor little orphans they suddenly and illogically pretend to represent as an entirely heroic and justified thing to be proud of. Calling it objectively petty and saying it's only "mostly fine" doesn't mean or change anything. Rose's skewed and immature view of how everything economical works is the one the movie accepts and encourages. Again, for a third of its runtime. And Holdo doesn't "play some small part" in her plan falling apart. It hinges on Hux arbitrarily deciding that the escape transports fleeing toward a planet he can see perfectly well out of his window are "just distractions" and aren't worth shooting down after he's spent the entire movie destroying everything Resistance that came within his reach. It's an objectively stupid plan that relies entirely on the villains making stupid and uncharacteristic decisions, and it's ruined because Holdo is an incompetent leader who doesn't give a damn about reassuring her people that she has a plan at all and aren't just waiting for them all to die. Even when they explicitly beg her for any sign that that isn't the case. Poe makes the perfectly logical call of helping people he trusts get started on a backup plan and giving her every possible chance to tell him and everyone else that they have reason to follow her before relieving her of her duty when she abjectly refuses to do so for no reason. The only reason things go wrong is because she convinced her entire command that they were doomed, and that there was no plan to interfere with and so nothing to lose by going for another long-shot. And after it all blows up in everyone's faces the movie portrays it as an important lesson that Poe takes to heart by calling off the Resistance's only chance of surviving out of concern for eight or so people, and Rose essentially decides to kill both herself and Finn just to prevent Finn from following through anyway. It's a stupid and insane clusterfuck of themes and messages that bottom out into "The guys are too hasty and stupid and self-sacrificing and the women know better, and when women do the exact same things as the men it's truly heroic and compassionate and makes perfect sense because reasons instead." And you can't have it both ways. Either Rey failing to redeem Kylo after having known him for a few hours is a monumental personal failure that shows how flawed and imperfect a character she is, in which case you're literally saying that his subsequent monstrous actions are actually her responsibility for failing to love the evil out of him... Or Kylo committed atrocities because he was a lunatic and Rey merely tried to redeem him out of the goodness of her heart, in which case she's an angel who tried to save a doomed soul. It's either or. You're also showing concern for feminists for having to worry about Rey being saved by a man while ignoring the fact that Rey saves one man after another throughout each movie in the trilogy. That's rather blatant sexism. Ah so you do watch the movies you just think that someone struggling to do something is 'easy as breathing'. I feel sorry for you if those are the only lessons you took from TLJ. It certainly sounds biased and agenda driven. And its either... it's always been either. She *tried* to redeam Kylo because A. She felt she could and B. Luke was still refusing to help at that point. She failed. Was she kind hearted? Sure that's part of the character...but it was still stupid and immature and almost ended in disaster. No I'm not showing concern for anything it's just idle speculation. I mean Holdo especially is so bad she comes off as being a parody of that. That anyone can call Disney's agenda feminist is really odd.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 18:24:40 GMT
Also, vis-a-vis the discussion about "everyone having access to the force". Remember this handsome guy, a few movies ago?: The whole point of his character - and why everyone thought he was ridiculously cool - was that he worshiped the Force and had lived and trained its teachings so hard as to approximate the skill and intuition of someone who was really Force sensitive, without having any actual connection to or power over it at all. If everyone has even just the potential for Force sensitivity - which I still haven't heard a single quotation from a book or movie or comic or Disney interview that outright suggested yet - then that's a complete 180' from Disney's own original direction with the movies. I hadn't gotten around to it yet obviously but he is the strongest evidence for my POV. He actually uses the Force...or used by the Force at one point. Obviously not a Jedi though strong enough where blaster fire is suspiciously inaccurate when fired at him.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 15, 2020 19:46:40 GMT
Ah so you do watch the movies you just think that someone struggling to do something is 'easy as breathing'. I feel sorry for you if those are the only lessons you took from TLJ. It certainly sounds biased and agenda driven. And its either... it's always been either. She *tried* to redeam Kylo because A. She felt she could and B. Luke was still refusing to help at that point. She failed. Was she kind hearted? Sure that's part of the character...but it was still stupid and immature and almost ended in disaster. No I'm not showing concern for anything it's just idle speculation. I mean Holdo especially is so bad she comes off as being a parody of that. That anyone can call Disney's agenda feminist is really odd. Please define your understanding of the word "struggle" for me, and then explain exactly when you see Rey engaging in it in the movies. You're right! Woe is me! I judge the coherence and message of a story from what actually happens in it! The movie certainly tries to make other statements, as I said, but none of them hold up to closer inspection. If there's something specific you think I've missed then I'm all ears, so long as you also don't mind hearing how the movie itself contradicts and subverts it. I don't feel particularly biased or agenda-driven. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure I just pointed out a huge pile of biased and agenda-driven crap that you'd swallowed hook, line and sinker without even looking. Don't shoot the messenger. Aha! So the issue now isn't that she failed to turn Kylo even though she wanted to, it is that the attempt itself was stupid and immature and that that's what showcases her personal weaknesses? I would agree. The only problem is that the movie rewards her for those weaknesses by letting her escape with a harmless scratch on her shoulder having caused the death of the principal villain of the first two movies and thoroughly shown up the secondary one in perfect time to arrive by and save all her friends. So far as the Resistance and the galaxy at large are concerned, Kylo leading the First Order is a much better prospect than Snoke leading the First Order with Kylo as his main enforcer. Her stupidity and immaturity, as I've said before, results directly in massive gain and relief for the good guys with no drawback at all, and in no way prevents her from immediately and effortlessly saving the day a few minutes later either. The hero isn't "flawed" if their damn "flaws" fix things. Idly or not, you apparently felt the need to bring it up. And so far as the movie's direction, and the mainstream media reporting on it, are concerned, Holdo is certainly supposed to be a wise and resolute and heroic commander who leads her people to safety but for one disobedient and arrogant soldier too caught up in his own machismo to trust her superior judgement, and goes out in a blaze of glory causing enormous destruction to the villains. I've never heard or seen anything to suggest that she was intended, or has been widely received, as anything resembling a parody of any kind. If you have then, again, I'm all ears. But the fact that Disney made asses of themselves playing gender politics doesn't somehow mean that they weren't genuinely trying to. That you would suggest that while denying that you see any overt feminist influence and calling me biased and agenda-driven has... interesting implications for how clearly you view things like that. I hadn't gotten around to it yet obviously but he is the strongest evidence for my POV. He actually uses the Force...or used by the Force at one point. Obviously not a Jedi though strong enough where blaster fire is suspiciously inaccurate when fired at him. Uhm, no he isn't. Going by your logic, that everyone should have the capacity to expand their connection to the force to the point of mastering it on some level at least, he would almost have to be a fully fledged Jedi. The guy clearly has strong intuition and has spent decades breathing the teachings of the Force and perfecting himself. If anybody in the entire galaxy had earned a late entry into padawanhood then it would be him. But he doesn't have any power at all. So clearly that isn't the case. Being "used" by the Force doesn't require or imply anything special. The Force is what binds the universe together. It "uses" everyone. And frankly, the same goes for the blaster fire of stormtroopers being "suspiciously inaccurate".
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 22:04:05 GMT
Ah so you do watch the movies you just think that someone struggling to do something is 'easy as breathing'. I feel sorry for you if those are the only lessons you took from TLJ. It certainly sounds biased and agenda driven. And its either... it's always been either. She *tried* to redeam Kylo because A. She felt she could and B. Luke was still refusing to help at that point. She failed. Was she kind hearted? Sure that's part of the character...but it was still stupid and immature and almost ended in disaster. No I'm not showing concern for anything it's just idle speculation. I mean Holdo especially is so bad she comes off as being a parody of that. That anyone can call Disney's agenda feminist is really odd. Please define your understanding of the word "struggle" for me, and when explain exactly you see Rey engaging in it in the movies. You're right! Woe is me! I judge the coherence and message of a story from what actually happens in it! The movie certainly tries to make other statements, as I said, but none of them hold up to closer inspection. If there's something specific you think I've missed then I'm all ears, so long as you also don't mind hearing how the movie itself contradicts and subverts it. I don't feel particularly biased or agenda-driven. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure I just pointed out a huge pile of biased and agenda-driven crap that you'd swallowed hook, line and sinker without even looking. Don't shoot the messenger. Aha! So the issue now isn't that she failed to turn Kylo even though she wanted to, it is that the attempt itself was stupid and immature and that that's what showcases her personal weaknesses? I would agree. The only problem is that the movie rewards her for those weaknesses by letting her escape with a harmless scratch on her shoulder having caused the death of the principal villain of the first two movies and thoroughly shown up the secondary one in perfect time to arrive by and save all her friends. So far as the Resistance and the galaxy at large are concerned, Kylo leading the First Order is a much better prospect than Snoke leading the First Order with Kylo as his main enforcer. Her stupidity and immaturity, as I've said before, results directly in massive gain and relief for the good guys with no drawback at all, and in no way prevents her from immediately and effortlessly saving the day a few minutes later either. The hero isn't "flawed" if their damn "flaws" fix things. Idly or not, you apparently felt the need to bring it up. And so far as the movie's direction, and the mainstream media reporting on it, are concerned, Holdo is certainly supposed to be a wise and resolute and heroic commander who leads her people to safety but for one disobedient and arrogant soldier too caught up in his own machismo to trust her superior judgement, and goes out in a blaze of glory causing enormous destruction to the villains. I've never heard or seen anything to suggest that she was intended, or has been widely received, as anything resembling a parody of any kind. If you have then, again, I'm all ears. But the fact that Disney made asses of themselves playing gender politics doesn't somehow mean that they weren't genuinely trying to. That you would suggest that while denying that you see any overt feminist influence and calling me biased and agenda-driven has... interesting implications for how clearly you view things like that. I hadn't gotten around to it yet obviously but he is the strongest evidence for my POV. He actually uses the Force...or used by the Force at one point. Obviously not a Jedi though strong enough where blaster fire is suspiciously inaccurate when fired at him. Uhm, no he isn't. Going by your logic, that everyone should have the capacity to expand their connection to the force to the point of mastering it on some level at least, he would almost have to be a fully fledged Jedi. The guy clearly has strong intuition and has spent decades breathing the teachings of the Force and perfecting himself. If anybody in the entire galaxy had earned a late entry into padawanhood then it would be him. But he doesn't have any power at all. So clearly that isn't the case. Being "used" by the Force doesn't require or imply anything special. The Force is what binds the universe together. It "uses" everyone. And frankly, the same goes for the blaster fire of stormtroopers being "suspiciously inaccurate". Struggle is the level of difficulty in accomplishing a task...clearly there is debate on the level Rey struggles but to call it effortless is absurd. Especially when she is busy bouncing the Falcon off the ground. That's always been the issue Nox... I've never seen...well any mainstream reporting on Holdo but given the movie portrays her as inept, judgmental, self righteous, and hypocritical I hardly think she was supposed to be a resolute commander...or is she was she was horribly written. I mean hell redeeming self sacrifice usually gets me and hers barely nudged me. Oh cool shot...thank the Force she's dead. That hasn't been and never will be my logic. I have gone out of my way to say not everyone can be a Jedi...for a whole host of reasons. But everyone has a connection which you also apparently believe...is all I meant by sensitivity. As far as his more esoteric feats Force ability is as likely as any other explanation...albeit very low key.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 15, 2020 23:10:29 GMT
I've never heard or seen anything to suggest that she was intended, or has been widely received, as anything resembling a parody of any kind. If you have then, again, I'm all ears. But the fact that Disney made asses of themselves playing gender politics doesn't somehow mean that they weren't genuinely trying to. That you would suggest that while denying that you see any overt feminist influence and calling me biased and agenda-driven has... interesting implications for how clearly you view things like that. After watching Rian Johnson's Knives Out it becomes painfully clear that his political commentary in TLJ wasn't satire, Rian Johnson is just that mediocre. Mind you the majority of the praise that his succeeding film Knives Out had garnered from critics was based on it's overt political commentary on race/class identity politics (Spike Lee did better) which was completely overshadowed by Joon-ho's Parasite, and for good reason too. uinterview.com/videos/video-exclusive-jamie-lee-curtis-explains-how-white-privilege-gets-a-good-comeuppance-in-knives-out/The only difference between Rian Johnson and Bree Larson is that he doesn't openly discriminate against prospective members of his audience due to their gender, and skin color shortly before his film premieres. (remember Birds of Prey?)
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 23:14:04 GMT
"Remember, your focus determines your relality." I forgot about that little gem...seems apt given the current conversation.
But yeah Qui gon specifically mentions pretty much everything that I am talking about and the new comics. All life needs them and they speak to them about the 'will of the Force'.
Funny how new information can change perspectives, I hated them but because I thought they were sciencing the Force and quanitfying it to some absurd degree...esentially given it a 'power level'...and that your hard work just does not matter too much because there is an upper quanitifiable defined limit. Now thanks to the Gametheory on the subject which has helped moderate my take on them and then followed by the new Star Wars comics...which seems to support that take...I am more or less fine with them...not especially happy I wish they weren't in SWs but I don't HATE them anymore either.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2020 23:15:17 GMT
I've never heard or seen anything to suggest that she was intended, or has been widely received, as anything resembling a parody of any kind. If you have then, again, I'm all ears. But the fact that Disney made asses of themselves playing gender politics doesn't somehow mean that they weren't genuinely trying to. That you would suggest that while denying that you see any overt feminist influence and calling me biased and agenda-driven has... interesting implications for how clearly you view things like that. After watching Rian Johnson's Knives Out it becomes painfully clear that his political commentary in TLJ wasn't satire, Rian Johnson is just that mediocre. Mind you the majority of the praise that his succeeding film Knives Out had garnered from critics was based on it's overt political commentary on race/class identity politics (Spike Lee did better) which was completely overshadowed by Joon-ho's Parasite, and for good reason too. uinterview.com/videos/video-exclusive-jamie-lee-curtis-explains-how-white-privilege-gets-a-good-comeuppance-in-knives-out/The only difference between Rian Johnson and Bree Larson is that he doesn't openly discriminate against prospective members of his audience due to their gender, and skin color shortly before his film premieres. (remember Birds of Prey?) Is Brie in BoP?
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 15, 2020 23:27:10 GMT
After watching Rian Johnson's Knives Out it becomes painfully clear that his political commentary in TLJ wasn't satire, Rian Johnson is just that mediocre. Mind you the majority of the praise that his succeeding film Knives Out had garnered from critics was based on it's overt political commentary on race/class identity politics (Spike Lee did better) which was completely overshadowed by Joon-ho's Parasite, and for good reason too. uinterview.com/videos/video-exclusive-jamie-lee-curtis-explains-how-white-privilege-gets-a-good-comeuppance-in-knives-out/The only difference between Rian Johnson and Bree Larson is that he doesn't openly discriminate against prospective members of his audience due to their gender, and skin color shortly before his film premieres. (remember Birds of Prey?) Is Brie in BoP? Forgot to add Margot Robbie's name right next to Larson like this... Brie Larson/Margot Robbie. Telling a portion of your future audience that your film isn't for them while trying to make bank isn't a good idea unless it was marketed as a tie-in to Marvel's Avengers: Endgame.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 16, 2020 6:29:33 GMT
Struggle is the level of difficulty in accomplishing a task...clearly there is debate on the level Rey struggles but to call it effortless is absurd. Especially when she is busy bouncing the Falcon off the ground. That's always been the issue Nox... I've never seen...well any mainstream reporting on Holdo but given the movie portrays her as inept, judgmental, self righteous, and hypocritical I hardly think she was supposed to be a resolute commander...or is she was she was horribly written. I mean hell redeeming self sacrifice usually gets me and hers barely nudged me. Oh cool shot...thank the Force she's dead. That hasn't been and never will be my logic. I have gone out of my way to say not everyone can be a Jedi...for a whole host of reasons. But everyone has a connection which you also apparently believe...is all I meant by sensitivity. As far as his more esoteric feats Force ability is as likely as any other explanation...albeit very low key. Ah-ah, struggle is the difficulty and resistance you experience to accomplish a task. I'm still waiting to hear when exactly you see Rey hunker down and work long and hard and frustratingly at something, like everyone else in the universe has to. And yeah, her flying the Falcon is wobbly at first. Except she's on Jakku. Scraping against the ground does no more damage than if she was flying around a bouncy castle. And as soon as things get real and they're surrounded by steel her flying becomes tighter than a nun's... well. No, it wasn't. A few posts ago the argument was that Rey failing to redeem Kylo is the most significant mistake she makes, and that her actions "push" him to become Supreme Leader, which is the terrible consequence of her failure that she must learn from. That's what you and Obediah posited as to why she's clearly human and fallible. I've pointed the lazy and actually sexist logic out twice now. Now you're changing the argument to what I said, that it was a really stupid and naive thing to try in the first place, while forgetting the second part of my argument, that the plot still rewards rather than punishes her for it meaning that so far as the world of Star Wars is concerned she did the exact right thing. Oh, no. The movie pretends to portray her as inept and judgmental, thoroughly justifying Poe's actions, but it also instantly tries to redeem her by portraying her and Leia's plan as ingenious and workable - by Poe's own admission - and him as the disobedient cog in the machine that screws it all up. The movie literally tries to pull a Severus Snape by presenting her has having been in the right the whole time and having her be the bigger woman by "liking" Poe in spite of how difficult he'd been. And then sacrificing herself to slow the First Order down - pretty much exactly the way Finn tries to later only in her case it's not "destroying what you hate, rather than protecting what you love" because.... ?.... If she had been a man and Poe a woman then she would rightly have been crucified as staple evidence of "the inherent mysogeny in Star Wars" or somesuch for her actions and behavior and how the movie ultimately frames her. But because it's the other way around she's unquestionably presented and widely accepted as a hero even though there's no logic whatsoever to her plans or actions and they're insanely insulting to characters we know for a fact deserve recognition. That's objectively and provably agenda-driven. Okay, fair enough. If what you mean is that a regular joe with sufficient discipline and spiritual openess can maybe, through grueling training and untiring self-reflection, learn to approximate what it's like to be only somewhat Force sensitive then that's kinda cool and doesn't break anything important. Although the idea that Chirrut has the actual protection of the Force rather than just being lucky is pretty thin. We have nine movies of people being peppered with laser fire without properly sticking to cover and only one hero - a Force sensitive at that - ever getting hit by it once.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 16, 2020 7:04:21 GMT
Struggle is the level of difficulty in accomplishing a task...clearly there is debate on the level Rey struggles but to call it effortless is absurd. Especially when she is busy bouncing the Falcon off the ground. That's always been the issue Nox... I've never seen...well any mainstream reporting on Holdo but given the movie portrays her as inept, judgmental, self righteous, and hypocritical I hardly think she was supposed to be a resolute commander...or is she was she was horribly written. I mean hell redeeming self sacrifice usually gets me and hers barely nudged me. Oh cool shot...thank the Force she's dead. That hasn't been and never will be my logic. I have gone out of my way to say not everyone can be a Jedi...for a whole host of reasons. But everyone has a connection which you also apparently believe...is all I meant by sensitivity. As far as his more esoteric feats Force ability is as likely as any other explanation...albeit very low key. Ah-ah, struggle is the difficulty and resistance you experience to accomplish a task. I'm still waiting to hear when exactly you see Rey hunker down and work long and hard and frustratingly at something, like everyone else in the universe has to. And yeah, her flying the Falcon is wobbly at first. Except she's on Jakku. Scraping against the ground does no more damage than if she was flying around a bouncy castle. And as soon as things get real and they're surrounded by steel her flying becomes tighter than a nun's... well. No, it wasn't. A few posts ago the argument was that Rey failing to redeem Kylo is the most significant mistake she makes, and that her actions "push" him to become Supreme Leader, which is the terrible consequence of her failure that she must learn from. That's what you and Obediah posited as to why she's clearly human and fallible. I've pointed the lazy and actually sexist logic out twice now. Now you're changing the argument to what I said, that it was a really stupid and naive thing to try in the first place, while forgetting the second part of my argument, that the plot still rewards rather than punishes her for it meaning that so far as the world of Star Wars is concerned she did the exact right thing. Oh, no. The movie pretends to portray her as inept and judgmental, thoroughly justifying Poe's actions, but it also instantly tries to redeem her by portraying her and Leia's plan as ingenious and workable - by Poe's own admission - and him as the disobedient cog in the machine that screws it all up. The movie literally tries to pull a Severus Snape by presenting her has having been in the right the whole time and having her be the bigger woman by "liking" Poe in spite of how difficult he'd been. And then sacrificing herself to slow the First Order down - pretty much exactly the way Finn tries to later only in her case it's not "destroying what you hate, rather than protecting what you love" because.... ?.... If she had been a man and Poe a woman then she would rightly have been crucified as staple evidence of "the inherent mysogeny in Star Wars" or somesuch for her actions and behavior and how the movie ultimately frames her. But because it's the other way around she's unquestionably presented and widely accepted as a hero even though there's no logic whatsoever to her plans or actions and they're insanely insulting to characters we know for a fact deserve recognition. That's objectively and provably agenda-driven. Okay, fair enough. If what you mean is that a regular joe with sufficient discipline and spiritual openess can maybe, through grueling training and untiring self-reflection, learn to approximate what it's like to be only somewhat Force sensitive then that's kinda cool and doesn't break anything important. Although the idea that Chirrut has the actual protection of the Force rather than just being lucky is pretty thin. We have nine movies of people being peppered with laser fire without properly sticking to cover and only one hero - a Force sensitive at that - ever getting hit by it once. *arches eyebrow*...now you are telling me what my own argument is despite the clarification. Yes she failed to redeem Kylo. That was her objective but it was a stupid objective at the time as Luke pointed out. But because she was so damned determined to find a hero which will give her a place in everything...which is her flaw...she went through with it anyway. I think you're stretching when it comes to Holdo. Though yes her plan and Leia's was fairly sound. The FO might've checked Crait just in case but there was no reason for them to assume anyone fled to Crait in the first place. Not until they ran a decloaking scan. As far as her sacrifice is concerned it's an entirely different situation. Ramming a fully functional cruiser...at hyperspace nonetheless...is legions different then Finn's rickety old speeder. As far as it goes she was arrogant and judgemental and exasperated a dangerous situation through her incompetence. I hardly think of her as a hero even if that is what the movie wants me to think...and that's a big if.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 16, 2020 8:26:31 GMT
*arches eyebrow*...now you are telling me what my own argument is despite the clarification. Yes she failed to redeem Kylo. That was her objective but it was a stupid objective at the time as Luke pointed out. But because she was so damned determined to find a hero which will give her a place in everything...which is her flaw...she went through with it anyway. I think you're stretching when it comes to Holdo. Though yes her plan and Leia's was fairly sound. The FO might've checked Crait just in case but there was no reason for them to assume anyone fled to Crait in the first place. Not until they ran a decloaking scan. As far as her sacrifice is concerned it's an entirely different situation. Ramming a fully functional cruiser...at hyperspace nonetheless...is legions different then Finn's rickety old speeder. As far as it goes she was arrogant and judgemental and exasperated a dangerous situation through her incompetence. I hardly think of her as a hero even if that is what the movie wants me to think...and that's a big if. Yes, I am, I'm the one you made the argument to, remember? Allow me to introduce you to colfoley and Obadiah of a few days ago: TLJ (in the context of listing Rey's various "significant personal failures")- Gets tortured into revealing Luke's location - Tries to turn Kylo (this is after being a Force user for A WEEK), and instead makes him the Supreme Leader I mean, allowing herself to be caught and interrogated and giving up Luke's location in an attempt to redeem Kylo to the light, which ends up pushing Kylo further to the Dark Side and making him the Supreme Commander of the First Order is a failure. Sure the Force Awakens may not have been perfect when showing its work...but that is why TLJ and TROS fleshed out her character and expanded on the flaws TFA did give her. Me and Obadiah has gone into this to great detail what we think those are...but she is a good person...she is not pure hearted. And as I've said multiple times "her going through with it" directly results in Snoke's death. If she had returned to the Reistance Fleet instead then the movie would have ended with the Resistance in the exact same position... and Snoke and Kylo both being alive and leading the First Order. If she had stayed with Luke then the Resistance would have been destroyed. What you call her personal and humanizing flaws are the only reason the second movie isn't a complete and utter failure for the good guys. That's not what character flaws are.The First Order could physically see that the Resistance's departing ships were fleeing in the direction of a planet, and they were demonstrably in a position to blast them all out of the sky anyway without losing anything from doing it, and had been doing exactly that for the entire movie up to that point. Holdo and Leia had no reason whatsoever to expect Hux not to just kill them all and if not then have them pursued to Crait and killed there. They also knew that "decloaking scans" were a thing and that the First Order is perfectly capable of scanning for lifeforms on remote ships. Their plan has no realistic hope of succeeding, and the only reason it almost does is because the plot forces Hux to make nonsensical and uncharacteristic decisions instead of using his resources logically in that exact moment. And of course you hardly think of her as a hero, she's an idiot character that helps ruin the movie and you're a human being with a functioning brain. But plenty of people do, and the movie absolutely wants you to and tries to twist the plot beyond all realistic assessment to make it happen. That's shitty and sexist writing. Your persistent notion that Finn's speeder has no chance of affecting the First Order's canon is also silly. Try firing a revolver with a piece of gum stuck in the barrel.(Do not try that, ever.) That small things can easily mess up big and complicated chemical machinery is an objective fact, and a big melting steel vehicle flying through the air at high speed straight down the inside of any big machine is going to cause problems, guaranteed. Which, by the way, is why Poe leads those speeders out to do exactly that in the first place before he gets cold feet and chickens out due to his leaders having undermined his confidence and psychologically tormented him for the entire movie. In comparison, we later find out that Holdo's little trick with the hyperdrive is explicitly "a million to one". So tell me again how Finn trying to sacrifice himself to put a dent in the First order by ramming them at a crucial point and moment is somehow wrong and useless while Holdo taking a much greater chance to do the exact same thing under functionally similar circumstances - giving the rest of the Resistance a bit more time to hopefully get away - isn't.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 16, 2020 10:49:52 GMT
... So tell me again how Finn trying to sacrifice himself to put a dent in the First order by ramming them at a crucial point and moment is somehow wrong and useless while Holdo taking a much greater chance to do the exact same thing under functionally similar circumstances - giving the rest of the Resistance a bit more time to hopefully get away - isn't. It is not the same situation, and therefore not the same choice. If Holdo didn't pull her suicide maneuver, the Resistance without question would have been destroyed as they were fleeing. When Finn has the choice to take out the cannon, the Resistance can still fight the approaching First Order, or try to find some way to flee (which is what they eventually decide to do). His killing himself would have bought them time, but at that point if the skiffs had continued the attack they would have been giving up their lives for uncertain gains. I think he would have blown up the cannon, but his heroics would have whittled down their numbers further, when they needed as many as possible to escape.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 16, 2020 11:31:20 GMT
It is not the same situation, and therefore not the same choice. If Holdo didn't pull her suicide maneuver, the Resistance without question would have been destroyed as they were fleeing. When Finn has the choice to take out the cannon, the Resistance can still fight the approaching First Order, or try to find some way to flee (which is what they eventually decide to do). His killing himself would have bought them time, but at that point if the skiffs had continued the attack they would have been giving up their lives for uncertain gains. I think he would have blown up the cannon, but his heroics would have whittled down their numbers further, when they needed as many as possible to escape. Ah-ah. In the preceding scene C3PO specifically points out that R2-D2 has analyzed the schematics of the bunker thing and that there is no other exit. And the First Order is on the verge of hammering down the door and slaughtering the Resistance with infinitely superior firepower and resources. Dead certainty. So far as Finn, Poe and Rose know, preventing that canon from blowing the door down and giving the Resistance time for literally anything to happen that might help them is their only hope, which is also explicitly why they're out there flying at the canon in the first place. A last hail mary before surrendering to death and tyranny. Which is also how the audience is made to view the situation, not to forget. Poe chickens out because he suddenly overestimates the First Order's accuracy gunning them down and Holdo and Leia have confused and abused him into cowardice throughout the movie, and Finn makes the exact same call Holdo made. "The only way to provide the people I care about even the slimmest chance of survival is to give my life - and that's more than a fair bargain." And then, in any realistic depiction of events, Rose pulverizes both him and herself by slamming her vehicle into his, leaving the canon to blow the gate open and dooming all her friends and the galaxy's hope for freedom in order to rebuke him for being willing to sacrifice himself, and accusing him of doing it to spite the First Order rather than to save his friends and the cause he has come to believe in, both of which, again, she just doomed. And it's dumb as all hell and makes even less sense.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 16, 2020 14:54:36 GMT
It is not the same situation, and therefore not the same choice. If Holdo didn't pull her suicide maneuver, the Resistance without question would have been destroyed as they were fleeing. When Finn has the choice to take out the cannon, the Resistance can still fight the approaching First Order, or try to find some way to flee (which is what they eventually decide to do). His killing himself would have bought them time, but at that point if the skiffs had continued the attack they would have been giving up their lives for uncertain gains. I think he would have blown up the cannon, but his heroics would have whittled down their numbers further, when they needed as many as possible to escape. Ah-ah. In the preceding scene C3PO specifically points out that R2-D2 has analyzed the schematics of the bunker thing and that there is no other exit. And the First Order is on the verge of hammering down the door and slaughtering the Resistance with infinitely superior firepower and resources. Dead certainty. ... And C3PO's analysis was based on schematics - what they needed to do was start searching the cave for an escape. "On the verge of" and "actually" slaughtering them are two different things. With or without the door blown down the First Order has superior firepower, and is "on the verge". The goal at that point was to escape with as many lives as possible, and make a stand only if necessary, not die in a suicide mission. The missions at the beginning and end are meant to bookend Poe's story with similar scenarios, where the characters can engage in heroics for short term gains, or focus on leading the Resistance in an escape. In the first mission, Poe leads a heroic charge against the dreadnaught that succeeds, but at a terrible cost. He faces the same decision on Crait, and makes the correct decision to save and preserve his forces for their escape, and to continue the Resistance.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 16, 2020 16:17:51 GMT
These "Galaxy of Adventures" shorts are pretty cool. Dante Basco's occasional boring narration is irritating, but they're really well-animated and put together. And C3PO's analysis was based on schematics - what they needed to do was start searching the cave for an escape. "On the verge of" and "actually" slaughtering them are two different things. With or without the door blown down the First Order has superior firepower, and is "on the verge". The goal at that point was to escape with as many lives as possible, and make a stand only if necessary, not die in a suicide mission. No, watch the scenes again. The goal at that point is explicitly to wait for the First Order to draw that cannon out and then to ruin it by any means necessary to prevent it from rendering the Resistance easy pickings. As the movie frames the scenario there's no way out, and the Resistance is as good as dead the moment that door falls. You're trying to make it sound like Poe and the others are distracting the First Order while the others search the caves for an escape. That isn't the case in the movie, nobody is searching for such an exit because they've all been told there isn't one. As such, they have no chance to be anywhere else the moment Kylo's forces blast through unless someone prevents that from happening in the first place. What Leia and Holdo's bridge staff is doing instead is sending out distress calls to allies who aren't responding. That's the only hope they have of anyone getting out alive. And that requires time, which they don't have if the door is blown down and the First Order storms the base in a few minutes. Which is why Poe organizes those speeders to try to take the canon out. If it wasn't for BOTH Luke's deus ex machina Force projection and Rey turning up to clear a new cave opening then Rose's actions would have meant the certain death of everyone in that cave, whereas Finn destroying that canon would have given them hours, if not days, to communicate with allies and coordinate with Rey and maybe find some solution. Attacking the canon with those speeders was always a suicide mission. Poe knew that from the get-go. He just pissed his pants when people started dying because he'd been second-guessed for no reason the entire movie.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 16, 2020 17:03:27 GMT
It is not the same situation, and therefore not the same choice. If Holdo didn't pull her suicide maneuver, the Resistance without question would have been destroyed as they were fleeing. When Finn has the choice to take out the cannon, the Resistance can still fight the approaching First Order, or try to find some way to flee (which is what they eventually decide to do). His killing himself would have bought them time, but at that point if the skiffs had continued the attack they would have been giving up their lives for uncertain gains. I think he would have blown up the cannon, but his heroics would have whittled down their numbers further, when they needed as many as possible to escape. Ah-ah. In the preceding scene C3PO specifically points out that R2-D2 has analyzed the schematics of the bunker thing and that there is no other exit. And the First Order is on the verge of hammering down the door and slaughtering the Resistance with infinitely superior firepower and resources. Dead certainty. So far as Finn, Poe and Rose know, preventing that canon from blowing the door down and giving the Resistance time for literally anything to happen that might help them is their only hope, which is also explicitly why they're out there flying at the canon in the first place. A last hail mary before surrendering to death and tyranny. Which is also how the audience is made to view the situation, not to forget. Poe chickens out because he suddenly overestimates the First Order's accuracy gunning them down and Holdo and Leia have confused and abused him into cowardice throughout the movie, and Finn makes the exact same call Holdo made. "The only way to provide the people I care about even the slimmest chance of survival is to give my life - and that's more than a fair bargain." And then, in any realistic depiction of events, Rose pulverizes both him and herself by slamming her vehicle into his, leaving the canon to blow the gate open and dooming all her friends and the galaxy's hope for freedom in order to rebuke him for being willing to sacrifice himself, and accusing him of doing it to spite the First Order rather than to save his friends and the cause he has come to believe in, both of which, again, she just doomed. And it's dumb as all hell and makes even less sense. By the logic of The Last Dumpster Fire, Han should have shot at Luke's X-Wing in ANH, sending HIM spinning off into space rather than Vader...
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 0:06:00 GMT
Ah-ah. In the preceding scene C3PO specifically points out that R2-D2 has analyzed the schematics of the bunker thing and that there is no other exit. And the First Order is on the verge of hammering down the door and slaughtering the Resistance with infinitely superior firepower and resources. Dead certainty. So far as Finn, Poe and Rose know, preventing that canon from blowing the door down and giving the Resistance time for literally anything to happen that might help them is their only hope, which is also explicitly why they're out there flying at the canon in the first place. A last hail mary before surrendering to death and tyranny. Which is also how the audience is made to view the situation, not to forget. Poe chickens out because he suddenly overestimates the First Order's accuracy gunning them down and Holdo and Leia have confused and abused him into cowardice throughout the movie, and Finn makes the exact same call Holdo made. "The only way to provide the people I care about even the slimmest chance of survival is to give my life - and that's more than a fair bargain." And then, in any realistic depiction of events, Rose pulverizes both him and herself by slamming her vehicle into his, leaving the canon to blow the gate open and dooming all her friends and the galaxy's hope for freedom in order to rebuke him for being willing to sacrifice himself, and accusing him of doing it to spite the First Order rather than to save his friends and the cause he has come to believe in, both of which, again, she just doomed. And it's dumb as all hell and makes even less sense. By the logic of The Last Dumpster Fire, Han should have shot at Luke's X-Wing in ANH, sending HIM spinning off into space rather than Vader... Mind you most of TLJ's narrative, and script defies logic. In the same sequence Rian Johnson had his waifu lecture a former slave about slavery, then veer into a hamfisted anti war/gun rant that fully ignored the reason that the FO had risen to power was because the Republic in it's drive for peace had disbanded it's military, and that the rich big bad arms dealers on Canto are the only reason the Resistance had a fighting chance, and should have little or nothing to do with arming the FO because they used the same vehicle/weapons manufacturer as the late Empire.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 0:07:47 GMT
By the logic of The Last Dumpster Fire, Han should have shot at Luke's X-Wing in ANH, sending HIM spinning off into space rather than Vader... Mind you most of TLJ's narrative, and script defies logic. In the same sequence Rian Johnson had his waifu lecture a former slave about slavery, then veer into a hamfisted anti war/gun rant that fully ignored the reason that the FO had risen to power was because the Republic in it's drive for peace had disbanded it's military, and that the rich big bad arms dealers on Canto are the only reason the Resistance had a fighting chance, and should havenothing to do with arming the FO because they used the same vehicle/weapons manufacturer as the late Empire/Palpatine's shadow fleet. ... Now TLJ is anti gun?
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 0:12:57 GMT
Mind you most of TLJ's narrative, and script defies logic. In the same sequence Rian Johnson had his waifu lecture a former slave about slavery, then veer into a hamfisted anti war/gun rant that fully ignored the reason that the FO had risen to power was because the Republic in it's drive for peace had disbanded it's military, and that the rich big bad arms dealers on Canto are the only reason the Resistance had a fighting chance, and should havenothing to do with arming the FO because they used the same vehicle/weapons manufacturer as the late Empire/Palpatine's shadow fleet. ... Now TLJ is anti gun? Did Rose not go on an anti war/gun rant during her lecture to Finn?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 0:39:44 GMT
Did Rose not go on an anti war/gun rant during her lecture to Finn? No, not really...I mean maybe anti war but given the Star Wars Galaxy has been torn apart by off and on wars for the last 40 years (if not millenia) its hardly an unreasonable position. But as far as anti gun...no. As you pointed out it would be rather insane logic given the amount of private or semi private citizens/ organizations that own their own weapons for self defense...hell including things as large as warships in the case of the Rebel Alliance and Resistance...that it would be insane to make an anti gun argument in Star Wars. Not saying its impossible but I don't find any anti gun cases argued in TLJ, not with Rose or Finn or DJ in any event. This is just the thing it comes back to time and again with these political arguments, now I'm not saying the Sequels don't have a message...but I am as libertarian/ right wing as they come...and I know that Hollywood tends to have a liberal bias so it wouldn't surprise me that they'd put that in there, so I am on the lookout for it...but I just don't see it. There is nothing in these movies that is anti capitalist, anti gun, and the pro feminism stuff is either really stretching or is so horribly done it comes off as self parody.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 1:53:24 GMT
Did Rose not go on an anti war/gun rant during her lecture to Finn? No, not really...I mean maybe anti war but given the Star Wars Galaxy has been torn apart by off and on wars for the last 40 years (if not millenia) its hardly an unreasonable position. But as far as anti gun...no. As you pointed out it would be rather insane logic given the amount of private or semi private citizens/ organizations that own their own weapons for self defense...hell including things as large as warships in the case of the Rebel Alliance and Resistance...that it would be insane to make an anti gun argument in Star Wars. Not saying its impossible but I don't find any anti gun cases argued in TLJ, not with Rose or Finn or DJ in any event. This is just the thing it comes back to time and again with these political arguments, now I'm not saying the Sequels don't have a message...but I am as libertarian/ right wing as they come...and I know that Hollywood tends to have a liberal bias so it wouldn't surprise me that they'd put that in there, so I am on the lookout for it...but I just don't see it. There is nothing in these movies that is anti capitalist, anti gun, and the pro feminism stuff is either really stretching or is so horribly done it comes off as self parody. Rose's rant started out as a lecture on exploitation but turned into a generic An Cap rant when she specifically took aim at the rich gun runners in the casino, and who she blamed for profitting off of the conflict by supplying both sides with arms (guns). The rant makes no sense because only the Rebels and Resistance would benefit from the services of gun runners while the Empire, and First Order relied on an inhouse private manufacturer. The rant existing as is makes no sense beyond an attempt by the director and writers to insert political messaging into the sequence to give it a veneer of being meaningful. The political messaging in TLJ surrounding Poe and Holdo wasn't parody because Rian Johnson is mediocre, and Kathleen Kennedy and her story group are unapologetic feminists who wouldn't allow it. Rian Johnson wasn't subtle with the political messaging in TLJ, there's a reason it was celebrated for its politics on publications like CNN, The Washington Post, The Guardian, Vanity Fair, GQ etc.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 2:07:01 GMT
No, not really...I mean maybe anti war but given the Star Wars Galaxy has been torn apart by off and on wars for the last 40 years (if not millenia) its hardly an unreasonable position. But as far as anti gun...no. As you pointed out it would be rather insane logic given the amount of private or semi private citizens/ organizations that own their own weapons for self defense...hell including things as large as warships in the case of the Rebel Alliance and Resistance...that it would be insane to make an anti gun argument in Star Wars. Not saying its impossible but I don't find any anti gun cases argued in TLJ, not with Rose or Finn or DJ in any event. This is just the thing it comes back to time and again with these political arguments, now I'm not saying the Sequels don't have a message...but I am as libertarian/ right wing as they come...and I know that Hollywood tends to have a liberal bias so it wouldn't surprise me that they'd put that in there, so I am on the lookout for it...but I just don't see it. There is nothing in these movies that is anti capitalist, anti gun, and the pro feminism stuff is either really stretching or is so horribly done it comes off as self parody. Rose's rant started out as a lecture on exploitation but turned into a generic An Cap rant when she specifically took aim at the rich gun runners in the casino, and who she blamed for profitting off of the conflict by supplying both sides with arms (guns). The rant makes no sense because only the Rebels and Resistance would benefit from the services of gun runners while the Empire, and First Order relied on an inhouse private manufacturer. The rant existing as is makes no sense beyond an attempt by the director and writers to insert political messaging into the sequence to give it a veneer of being meaningful. The political messaging in TLJ surrounding Poe and Holdo wasn't parody because Rian Johnson is mediocre, and Kathleen Kennedy and her story group are unapologetic feminists who wouldn't allow it. Rian Johnson wasn't subtle with the political messaging in TLJ, there's a reason it was celebrated for its politics on publications like CNN, The Washington Post, The Guardian, Vanity Fair, GQ etc. Fascinating if true. Actually its interesting considering I saw an article claiming that TROS was 'right wing' while TLJ was 'left wing.' I personally find the whole notion absurd since neither of those movies had any real overt political messages in them to begin with...unless you go looking for them apparently. Especially in terms of modern American/ European political orthodoxy. And your argument sabatages itself. Why wouldn't the First Orders 'inhouse' weapons manufacturers be at Canto Bight? Why wouldn't they make a profit over selling weapons to both sides? And it seems to me that there would be those that would seek to profit off the cycle of war and violence within the Galaxy... profitting off of the system of various fascistic ideologies duking it out against the 'good' guys, and its actually a bit of a funny, though very apt observaion, that the most profitable business in a setting whose franchise is named Star WARS would be weapons manufacturing. And remember the ultimate message of Finn's arc was that he REJECTED all that nonsense. DJ was all like 'look at how horrible everything is, Don't Join, by a selfish little prick'...but Finn was like 'no there is actually a cause and there is actually a cause worth believing in.'
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 2:48:30 GMT
Rose's rant started out as a lecture on exploitation but turned into a generic An Cap rant when she specifically took aim at the rich gun runners in the casino, and who she blamed for profitting off of the conflict by supplying both sides with arms (guns). The rant makes no sense because only the Rebels and Resistance would benefit from the services of gun runners while the Empire, and First Order relied on an inhouse private manufacturer. The rant existing as is makes no sense beyond an attempt by the director and writers to insert political messaging into the sequence to give it a veneer of being meaningful. The political messaging in TLJ surrounding Poe and Holdo wasn't parody because Rian Johnson is mediocre, and Kathleen Kennedy and her story group are unapologetic feminists who wouldn't allow it. Rian Johnson wasn't subtle with the political messaging in TLJ, there's a reason it was celebrated for its politics on publications like CNN, The Washington Post, The Guardian, Vanity Fair, GQ etc. Fascinating if true. Actually its interesting considering I saw an article claiming that TROS was 'right wing' while TLJ was 'left wing.' I personally find the whole notion absurd since neither of those movies had any real overt political messages in them to begin with...unless you go looking for them apparently. Especially in terms of modern American/ European political orthodoxy. And your argument sabatages itself. Why wouldn't the First Orders 'inhouse' weapons manufacturers be at Canto Bight? Why wouldn't they make a profit over selling weapons to both sides? And it seems to me that there would be those that would seek to profit off the cycle of war and violence within the Galaxy... profitting off of the system of various fascistic ideologies duking it out against the 'good' guys, and its actually a bit of a funny, though very apt observaion, that the most profitable business in a setting whose franchise is named Star WARS would be weapons manufacturing. And remember the ultimate message of Finn's arc was that he REJECTED all that nonsense. DJ was all like 'look at how horrible everything is, Don't Join, by a selfish little prick'...but Finn was like 'no there is actually a cause and there is actually a cause worth believing in.' The politics in TLJ wasn't subtle. The same reviewers who celebrated TLJ for it's wokeness, like they did Rian's Knives Out, also attacked TRoS for it being apolitical despite that being JJ's style as evidenced by MI3, Star Trek (2009), and TFA. TLJ was woke but it's messaging only seemed to suggest otherwise due to Rian Johnson's limitations as a director and writer. The Empire, First Order and Palpatine's Sith fleet used Kuat Drive Yards as a manufacturer exclusively. Dealing with a weapons merchant who is most likely to sell the schematics of your vehicles, weapons and technology to the enemy is just dumb even by Disney Wars' standards, and judging by the Resistance's ignorance of StarKiller Base, The Supremacy's hyperspace tracker, and Palpatine's Sith Fleet it's a given they used an inhouse manufacturer. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kuat-Entralla_EngineeringAlso Finn already found a cause worth fighting for beyond himself when he ignited Anakin's lightsaber. His arc in TLJ was an unnecessary retread of his character arc in TFA, and only served to keep his character in limbo, but with the added bonus of being a sidekick to Rian Johnson's OC.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 2:53:19 GMT
Fascinating if true. Actually its interesting considering I saw an article claiming that TROS was 'right wing' while TLJ was 'left wing.' I personally find the whole notion absurd since neither of those movies had any real overt political messages in them to begin with...unless you go looking for them apparently. Especially in terms of modern American/ European political orthodoxy. And your argument sabatages itself. Why wouldn't the First Orders 'inhouse' weapons manufacturers be at Canto Bight? Why wouldn't they make a profit over selling weapons to both sides? And it seems to me that there would be those that would seek to profit off the cycle of war and violence within the Galaxy... profitting off of the system of various fascistic ideologies duking it out against the 'good' guys, and its actually a bit of a funny, though very apt observaion, that the most profitable business in a setting whose franchise is named Star WARS would be weapons manufacturing. And remember the ultimate message of Finn's arc was that he REJECTED all that nonsense. DJ was all like 'look at how horrible everything is, Don't Join, by a selfish little prick'...but Finn was like 'no there is actually a cause and there is actually a cause worth believing in.' The politics in TLJ wasn't subtle. The same reviewers who celebrated TLJ for it's wokeness, like they did Rian's Knives Out, also attacked TRoS for it being apolitical despite that being JJ's style as evidenced by MI3, Star Trek (2009), and TFA. TLJ was woke but it's messaging only seemed to suggest otherwise due to Rian Johnson's limitations as a director and writer. The Empire, First Order and Palpatine's Sith fleet used Kuat Drive Yards as a manufacturer exclusively. Dealing with a weapons merchant who is most likely to sell the schematics of your vehicles, weapons and technology to the enemy is just dumb even by Disney Wars' standards, and judging by the Resistance's ignorance of StarKiller Base, The Supremacy's hyperspace tracker, and Palpatine's Sith Fleet it's a given they used an inhouse manufacturer. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kuat-Entralla_EngineeringAlso Finn already found a cause worth fighting when he ignited Anakin's lightsaber. His arc in TLJ was an unnecessary retread of his character arc in TFA, and only served to keep his character in limbo, but with the added bonus of being a sidekick to Rian Johnson's OC. I know what Kuat is...it does bear thinking on however I do not see the inherent contradiction, as of yet. I mean we know Palpy used them maybe the FO used someone else? And given Kuat is a weapons manufacturer I don't think there is anything to stop them, logically, from selling weapons to the Resistance. Maybe different weapons. More then likely though the First Order had their own tech they could develop but needed other companies to provide them things they could not. You know as much as you keep on repeating the same argument over and over again is not conducive to me believing the argument. Again Finn's 'cause' was Rey. I mean I can see why, if I were in his shoes I might do the same thing but there is legions of difference between 'save Rey' and 'fight for the Resistance' in terms of causes.
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